1909 Brandenburg GK

[swamphen]

Good point, that'll save some weight to put into armour...I'll spin it up and see how it goes.

Range is 6,000 at 12 knots, not 10, should it still be more?

The fifth tube is mounted within the hull, above the waterline, firing astern - a lot of the capital ship drawings in Jane's WWI show a tube in this position (although in Jane's it seems to be counted as an underwater tube).

[swamphen]

Modified the design; a little more freeboard fiddling (bow down, fo'c'stle up), range 6,250 at 12, upper belt now 75mm, casemate battery now 12 x 88mm.

However there's further fun as well. The Admiralstab instructed Krupps to consider alternative armaments, specifically, what could be fit in the same barbette as 3x240mm?

The designers responded with a trio of additional designs. The first is the 'most likely alternative' (although the 240mm armed version is still the most likely period) with two twin 280mm turrets. These are 'drop in' replacements for the smaller triples, although ammo supply per gun is lower due to weight restrictions (6 x 150rpg vs 4 x 120 rpg).

The second mounts 2 x 305mm (150 rpg). This design proved, interestingly, to have a considerable amount of reserve weight left over, so the designers elected to raise the hull by a quarter of a metre (i.e. draught reduced by 0.25m, freeboard increased by same) and range was upped to 7,500nm at 12 knots. Of course the single turret can be dropped into a 'standard' GK09 as a replacement for the triple or single turrets above, as well.

The final design isn't a "drop in" as it requres a larger barbette (and 1m longer main armour belt), but the design actually proved capable of accepting two single 350mm guns...

---------------

Design Anton, 2x3 240mm.

GK09-240, German Großer Kreuzer laid down 1909

Displacement:
   9,925 t light; 10,409 t standard; 11,347 t normal; 12,097 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   563.18 ft / 557.74 ft x 68.90 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
   171.66 m / 170.00 m x 21.00 m  x 6.00 m

Armament:
      6 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (2x3 guns), 418.88lbs / 190.00kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     12 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1900 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1900 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.10lbs / 0.50kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts

   Weight of broadside 2,961 lbs / 1,343 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

   1 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes
   4 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:      5.91" / 150 mm   344.49 ft / 105.00 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Ends:      1.97" / 50 mm   213.25 ft / 65.00 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Upper:      2.95" / 75 mm   344.49 ft / 105.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:      7.87" / 200 mm   4.92" / 125 mm      4.92" / 125 mm
   2nd:      2.95" / 75 mm         -               -
   3rd:      0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 4.92" / 125 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,808 Kw = 26.81 kts
   Range 6,250nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 1,687 tons)

Complement:
   549 - 714

Cost:
   £0.963 million / $3.853 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 369 tons, 3.3 %
   Armour: 2,950 tons, 26.0 %
      - Belts: 1,454 tons, 12.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 488 tons, 4.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 954 tons, 8.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 54 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 2,182 tons, 19.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,303 tons, 37.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,422 tons, 12.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 1.1 %
      - Huelesmeyer device: 50 tons
      - Markoni installation: 25 tons
      - Flag accomodations: 25 tons
      - Torpedoes: 15 tons
      - Weight reserve: 5 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14,158 lbs / 6,422 Kg = 33.6 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
   Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 14.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.525
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:         24.61 ft / 7.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):      18.86 ft / 5.75 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:         16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      17.72 ft / 5.40 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,199 Square feet or 2,434 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 114 lbs/sq ft or 555 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.25
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

---------------

Design Bruno, 2x2 283mm

GK09-280, German Großer Kreuzer laid down 1909

Displacement:
   9,967 t light; 10,409 t standard; 11,347 t normal; 12,097 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   563.18 ft / 557.74 ft x 68.90 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
   171.66 m / 170.00 m x 21.00 m  x 6.00 m

Armament:
      4 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (2x2 guns), 661.39lbs / 300.00kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     12 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1900 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1900 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.10lbs / 0.50kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts

   Weight of broadside 3,093 lbs / 1,403 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

   1 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes
   4 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:      5.91" / 150 mm   344.49 ft / 105.00 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Ends:      1.97" / 50 mm   213.25 ft / 65.00 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Upper:      2.95" / 75 mm   344.49 ft / 105.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:      7.87" / 200 mm   4.92" / 125 mm      4.92" / 125 mm
   2nd:      2.95" / 75 mm         -               -
   3rd:      0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 4.92" / 125 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,808 Kw = 26.81 kts
   Range 6,250nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 1,687 tons)

Complement:
   549 - 714

Cost:
   £0.980 million / $3.921 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 388 tons, 3.4 %
   Armour: 2,934 tons, 25.9 %
      - Belts: 1,454 tons, 12.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 472 tons, 4.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 954 tons, 8.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 54 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 2,182 tons, 19.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,343 tons, 38.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,379 tons, 12.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14,035 lbs / 6,366 Kg = 21.0 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
   Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 14.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.525
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:         24.61 ft / 7.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):      18.86 ft / 5.75 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:         16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      17.72 ft / 5.40 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,199 Square feet or 2,434 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 115 lbs/sq ft or 560 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.26
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

---------------

Design Caesar, 2x1 305mm

GK09-305, German Großer Kreuzer laid down 1909

Displacement:
   9,376 t light; 9,785 t standard; 10,874 t normal; 11,745 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   563.25 ft / 557.74 ft x 68.90 ft x 18.86 ft (normal load)
   171.68 m / 170.00 m x 21.00 m  x 5.75 m

Armament:
      2 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns in single mounts, 859.80lbs / 390.00kg shells, 1903 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     12 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1900 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1900 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.10lbs / 0.50kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts

   Weight of broadside 2,167 lbs / 983 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

   1 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes
   4 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:      5.91" / 150 mm   344.49 ft / 105.00 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Ends:      1.97" / 50 mm   213.25 ft / 65.00 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Upper:      2.95" / 75 mm   344.49 ft / 105.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:      7.87" / 200 mm   4.92" / 125 mm      4.92" / 125 mm
   2nd:      2.95" / 75 mm         -               -
   3rd:      0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 4.92" / 125 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,808 Kw = 26.98 kts
   Range 7,500nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 1,960 tons)

Complement:
   532 - 692

Cost:
   £0.860 million / $3.440 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 270 tons, 2.5 %
   Armour: 2,798 tons, 25.7 %
      - Belts: 1,454 tons, 13.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 338 tons, 3.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 954 tons, 8.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 52 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 2,182 tons, 20.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,006 tons, 36.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,498 tons, 13.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15,048 lbs / 6,826 Kg = 17.4 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
   Metacentric height 4.3 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 13.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.28
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.27

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.525
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:         25.43 ft / 7.75 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      17.22 ft / 5.25 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17.22 ft / 5.25 m
      - Stern:         17.22 ft / 5.25 m
      - Average freeboard:      18.54 ft / 5.65 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 164.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,199 Square feet or 2,434 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 106 lbs/sq ft or 516 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.26
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

---------------

Design Dora, 2x1 350mm

GK09-350, German Großer Kreuzer laid down 1909

Displacement:
   9,917 t light; 10,409 t standard; 11,347 t normal; 12,097 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   563.18 ft / 557.74 ft x 68.90 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
   171.66 m / 170.00 m x 21.00 m  x 6.00 m

Armament:
      2 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns in single mounts, 1,300.73lbs / 590.00kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     12 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1900 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1900 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.10lbs / 0.50kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts

   Weight of broadside 3,049 lbs / 1,383 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

   1 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes
   4 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:      5.91" / 150 mm   347.77 ft / 106.00 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Ends:      1.97" / 50 mm   209.97 ft / 64.00 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Upper:      2.95" / 75 mm   347.77 ft / 106.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:      7.87" / 200 mm   4.92" / 125 mm      4.92" / 125 mm
   2nd:      2.95" / 75 mm         -               -
   3rd:      0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 4.92" / 125 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 49,188 shp / 36,694 Kw = 26.98 kts
   Range 6,250nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 1,687 tons)

Complement:
   549 - 714

Cost:
   £0.979 million / $3.918 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 380 tons, 3.4 %
   Armour: 2,847 tons, 25.1 %
      - Belts: 1,462 tons, 12.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 378 tons, 3.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 954 tons, 8.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 54 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 2,236 tons, 19.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,334 tons, 38.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,429 tons, 12.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     13,968 lbs / 6,336 Kg = 10.7 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
   Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 14.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.525
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:         24.61 ft / 7.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):      18.86 ft / 5.75 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:         16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      17.72 ft / 5.40 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,199 Square feet or 2,434 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 114 lbs/sq ft or 559 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.28
      - Overall: 1.01
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[swamphen]

Although the current 6x240 design should be quite good at Pacific and Indian Ocean duties, its speed and range are overkill for Rift Valley Channel patrol. Perhaps an optimised version of the 4x280 design with extra armour...

[P3D]

I'd say 26kts+ speed is necessary for the Rift, considering the Orange battlecruiser designs.
Also,

[Ithekro]

Well that depends on if they are backed up by something that doesn't need to run.

[P3D]

They are supposed to be stationed in Afrika, while the Hochseeflotte guards Neubrandenburg and raids whatever minimal Orange merchant traffic they can find. If they need some heavy backing, there's not much raison d'etre for the ship.

[swamphen]

Ah, but can you send those battlecruisers through my minefields?
:P

But I agree the speed is probably necessary. Range, however...6250 at 12 is definitly overkill for the Rift.

So the production will probably be two -240 for the Neueguineaflotte peacetime flag squadron/Indian Ocean wartime raider role, and two -280 trading range for armour for the Orange juicing role. ;D

[P3D]

I think even your captain won't maneuver where there are minefields. So where your AC goes, could als omy ship go. And you can only have minefields in coastal/shallow seas, which is not too relevant to the deep Rift sea. The utility of mines, I'd guess is reduced around Africa due to the lack of shallow waters.

[swamphen]

Hmm. Perhaps I should invest in torpedokreuzers for the Afrikaflotte...

The 'sharps are on the other computer so I won't be able to post details until later, but the riftkreuzer varies from the baseline GK09 like so:

-Powerplant reduced by one shaft (36,000shp/3, reduction of ~2 knots); this is felt to be acceptable given the increased armour/firepower and the restricted area of the Rift Valley Channel.
-Range 5,000nm @ 10 knots, bunkerage 20% coal (for emergency use in case of oil shortage)
-Main battery 2x2 280mm (300kg shells)
-Armour increased (main belt 250mm, upper belt 125mm, others also increased)

[P3D]

Dunno. 25kts might make enough of a difference to escape.
If you are going with 5000nm range, make it all coal. The emergency 1000nm@10kts is not enough to get the ship to a friendly port, especially when pursued.

[Ithekro]

Looks pretty wide to me.  You could loose Italy in th e Rift and still be able to sail around it...maybe not even see land.  Only the north end seems to have any narrowness to it and that's still probably 30 or so miles wide.

[Borys]

Ahoj!

Only the north end seems to have any narrowness to it and that's still probably 30 or so miles wide.

Dibs on setting up a toll-house!
Borys

[swamphen]

If I make it all coal, or increase speed, I'll have reduce the range more, reduce the armour, or make the ship bigger (pick any two).  :(

[swamphen]

My first attempts with SSbeta3:

GK1909-240, Brandenburg Großer Kreuzer laid down 1909

Displacement:
   9,883 t light; 10,409 t standard; 11,347 t normal; 12,097 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (563.18 ft / 557.74 ft) x 68.90 ft x (19.69 / 20.69 ft)
   (171.66 m / 170.00 m) x 21.00 m  x (6.00 / 6.31 m)

Armament:
      6 - 9.45" / 240 mm 50.0 cal guns - 418.88lbs / 190.00kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1908 Model
     2 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 400 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1900 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1.10lbs / 0.50kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1905 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 raised mounts
      4 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm 62.0 cal guns - 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 2,000 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 2,961 lbs / 1,343 kg
      1 - 19.7" / 500 mm, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m torpedo - 1.099 t total
   In a deck mounted carriage/fixed tube
      4 - 19.7" / 500 mm, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m torpedoes - 1.099 t each, 4.396 t total
   In 4 sets of submerged side tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.91" / 150 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   229.66 ft / 70.00 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Upper:   2.95" / 75 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.87" / 200 mm   4.92" / 125 mm      4.92" / 125 mm
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - single deck: 1.97" / 50 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 1.97" / 50 mm  Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 4.92" / 125 mm,  Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,808 Kw = 26.81 kts
   Range 6,250nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,687 tons

Complement:
   549 - 714

Cost:
   £0.951 million / $3.805 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 748 tons, 6.6 %
      - Guns: 742 tons, 6.5 %
      - Torpedoes: 5 tons, 0.0 %
   Armour: 2,902 tons, 25.6 %
      - Belts: 1,472 tons, 13.0 %
      - Armament: 414 tons, 3.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 962 tons, 8.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 54 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 2,182 tons, 19.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,932 tons, 34.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,463 tons, 12.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 1.1 %
      - Hull below water: 20 tons
      - Hull above water: 25 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 25 tons
      - Above deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14,879 lbs / 6,749 Kg = 35.3 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
   Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 14.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.525 / 0.533
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  24.61 ft / 7.50 m,  18.86 ft / 5.75 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  16.90 ft / 5.15 m,  16.90 ft / 5.15 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  16.90 ft / 5.15 m,  16.90 ft / 5.15 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  16.90 ft / 5.15 m,  16.90 ft / 5.15 m
      - Average freeboard:      17.75 ft / 5.41 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 153.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,199 Square feet or 2,434 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 114 lbs/sq ft or 557 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.27
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


GK1909-280, Brandenburg Großer Kreuzer laid down 1909

Displacement:
        9,872 t light; 10,409 t standard; 11,347 t normal; 12,097 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
        (563.18 ft / 557.74 ft) x 68.90 ft x (19.69 / 20.69 ft)
        (171.66 m / 170.00 m) x 21.00 m x (6.00 / 6.31 m)

Armament:
4 - 11.02" / 280 mm 45.0 cal guns - 661.39lbs / 300.00kg shells, 150 per gun
        Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1909 Model
        2 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 400 per gun
        Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1900 Model
        12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
                12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 200 per gun
        Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
        8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1.10lbs / 0.50kg shells, 1,500 per gun
        Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1905 Model
        6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
                6 raised mounts
4 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm 62.0 cal guns - 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 2,000 per gun
        Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model
        4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
                4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,093 lbs / 1,403 kg
1 - 19.7" / 500 mm, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m torpedo - 1.099 t total
        In a deck mounted carriage/fixed tube
4 - 19.7" / 500 mm, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m torpedoes - 1.099 t each, 4.396 t total
        In 4 sets of submerged side tubes

Armour:
- Belts:                Width (max)        Length (avg)                Height (avg)
        Main:        5.91" / 150 mm        328.08 ft / 100.00 m        11.48 ft / 3.50 m
        Ends:        1.97" / 50 mm        229.66 ft / 70.00 m        10.66 ft / 3.25 m
        Upper:        2.95" / 75 mm        328.08 ft / 100.00 m        8.20 ft / 2.50 m
        Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length

- Gun armour:        Face (max)        Other gunhouse (avg)        Barbette/hoist (max)
        Main:        7.87" / 200 mm        4.92" / 125 mm                4.92" / 125 mm
        2nd:        2.95" / 75 mm        -                        -
        3rd:        0.79" / 20 mm        -                        -

- Armoured deck - single deck: 1.97" / 50 mm For and Aft decks
        Forecastle: 1.97" / 50 mm Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 4.92" / 125 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
        Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
        Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,808 Kw = 26.81 kts
        Range 6,250nm at 12.00 kts
        Bunker at max displacement = 1,687 tons

Complement:
        549 - 714

Cost:
        £0.925 million / $3.699 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
        Armament: 576 tons, 5.1 %
        - Guns: 571 tons, 5.0 %
        - Torpedoes: 5 tons, 0.0 %
        Armour: 2,893 tons, 25.5 %
        - Belts: 1,472 tons, 13.0 %
        - Armament: 405 tons, 3.6 %
        - Armour Deck: 962 tons, 8.5 %
        - Conning Tower: 54 tons, 0.5 %
        Machinery: 2,182 tons, 19.2 %
        Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,101 tons, 36.1 %
        Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,474 tons, 13.0 %
        Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 1.1 %
        - Hull below water: 20 tons
        - Hull above water: 25 tons
        - On freeboard deck: 25 tons
        - Above deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
        Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
        15,301 lbs / 6,940 Kg = 22.8 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
        Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
        Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
        Roll period: 14.1 seconds
        Steadiness        - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
                        - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
        Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
        Hull has raised forecastle,
        a normal bow and a cruiser stern
        Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.525 / 0.533
        Length to Beam Ratio: 8.10 : 1
        'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
        Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
        Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
        Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
        Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
        Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
                                Fore end,        Aft end
        - Forecastle:        20.00 %, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m, 18.86 ft / 5.75 m
        - Forward deck:        30.00 %, 16.90 ft / 5.15 m, 16.90 ft / 5.15 m
        - Aft deck:        35.00 %, 16.90 ft / 5.15 m, 16.90 ft / 5.15 m
        - Quarter deck:        15.00 %, 16.90 ft / 5.15 m, 16.90 ft / 5.15 m
        - Average freeboard:                17.75 ft / 5.41 m
        Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
        Space        - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.2 %
                - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 153.4 %
        Waterplane Area: 26,199 Square feet or 2,434 Square metres
        Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
        Structure weight / hull surface area: 115 lbs/sq ft or 560 Kg/sq metre
        Hull strength (Relative):
                - Cross-sectional: 0.98
                - Longitudinal: 1.29
                - Overall: 1.01
        Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
        Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
        Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
        Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[swamphen]

With the outbreak of war it is being considered that the GK1909 may have to be pushed back a year or two, to allow making up of war losses first (and, perhaps, completion of Ersatz F.).

If this happens, one of the officers in the Admiralstab's Design Bureau has come up with this, as a possible alternative to simply "updating" the exsisting design.

GK11-240, German Armoured Cruiser laid down 1911 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   12,996 t light; 13,741 t standard; 15,058 t normal; 16,111 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   563.46 ft / 557.74 ft x 75.46 ft x 23.85 ft (normal load)
   171.74 m / 170.00 m x 23.00 m  x 7.27 m

Armament:
      6 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (2x3 guns), 421.80lbs / 191.32kg shells, 1911 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns in single mounts, 421.80lbs / 191.32kg shells, 1911 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side ends, evenly spread
     12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1911 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 1903 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts

   Weight of broadside 4,955 lbs / 2,248 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

   2 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:      5.91" / 150 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ends:      3.15" / 80 mm   196.85 ft / 60.00 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Upper:      3.15" / 80 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:      5.91" / 150 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      5.91" / 150 mm
   2nd:      5.91" / 150 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      5.91" / 150 mm
   3rd:      3.15" / 80 mm         -               -
   4th:      1.97" / 50 mm         -               -
   5th:      0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 68,000 shp / 50,728 Kw = 27.94 kts
   Range 8,750nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,370 tons)

Complement:
   679 - 883

Cost:
   £1.355 million / $5.419 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 619 tons, 4.1 %
   Armour: 3,823 tons, 25.4 %
      - Belts: 1,714 tons, 11.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 986 tons, 6.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,045 tons, 6.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 78 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 2,711 tons, 18.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,488 tons, 36.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,061 tons, 13.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 355 tons, 2.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15,925 lbs / 7,223 Kg = 37.8 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 16.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 66 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.525
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.39 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:         27.89 ft / 8.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):      25.43 ft / 7.75 m
      - Mid (30 %):      23.79 ft / 7.25 m (15.58 ft / 4.75 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   15.58 ft / 4.75 m
      - Stern:         15.58 ft / 4.75 m
      - Average freeboard:      18.65 ft / 5.69 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 136.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 28,694 Square feet or 2,666 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 637 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.47
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent