Vilnius Union Ships, 1930+: The Good, The Bad, and the Unseaworthy

[The Rock Doctor]

It's a less optimal approach but still theoretically possible, so I flagged it.

I think a straight upgrade of 350/45 is probably the likely outcome. 

[The Rock Doctor]

Putzing about in SS suggests that a refurb which includes machinery and main battery replacement will be about $16 and 6 BP, although scrapping all the old guns and machinery will knock about $1 and 1 BP off the net cost.

[Jefgte]

OK for 27kts to work with Encke & Gadolin.

...I think a straight upgrade of 350/45 is probably the likely outcome.

Change guns 350/45 & mounts 1913 model
to guns 350/45 & mounts 1930 model => to be developed.

[The Rock Doctor]

I suspect it'd be 1925 tech, but that's still advanced capped shells.

The secondary and AA batteries would likely be replaced with a bunch of 100mm DP and 50mm AA akin to some of the Queen Elizabeth rebuilds in the historical 1930s.

Of course, refurbishment of this scale might mean I retain the class in service a bit longer than I'd otherwise planned. 

[The Rock Doctor]

1931 carrier options:

A)  Updated Centaury class:  Swap out the main and secondary batteries for DP guns and a new engine year allows for 32 new model planes rather than 30. 

B)  A 21,000 t design with a heavier DP battery, torpedo bulkhead, heavier deck armor, and 48 planes.

C)  A 25,000 t version of B with 64 planes.

D)  A 22,000 armored deck model with about 30 planes.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Everyone's going to have their own design considerations.
I looked up some of the period planes and posted them in general.
Looking at the bombloads, speeds and ranges, I rather think an armored deck carrier is overkill.

B&C are in the same size size range as the Charmosh I posted.
The advantage is you can hold enough planes to get off a reasonable size strike....but you're still limited by the 1928 cap so that would be a 12 plane strike or a 16 plane strike....though as operations improve they will get better.

Even so, this is Pre-radar, early warning is strictly visual.
And a carrier can be rendered combat ineffective by a single bomb or shell in the flight deck. The 360nm range of a current plane in practice means you want 40% for outbound, 20% for flying around, and 40% for return...at max. For 144nm maximum effective range..and you need to sail into the wind, which might be towards the foe. In practice you tended to be closer.  USN exercises found the carriers tended to be less than 100miles away, and could be caught on the surface at night. Plus whoever landed the first strike tended to take out the foe. Now add in operations in storms, or more common sea haze, and visibility can be restricted often. 

So big carriers become risk/reward.
Right now I'm leaning towards a couple more fighter/scout platforms to spread my risk,
and once the 1932 tech is being researched, move to a larger carrier that will be able to field a big group.

1924: Improved airgroup handling practices. Primitive deck parks. Anti-Ship Level Bombing. Rapid Consecutive Takeoffs with no more than 25% of the airgroup
1928: armored box carrier Improved Air-Launched Torpedoes. Early Anti-Ship Dive Bombs
1932: Early Deck-Parks, Rapid Consecutive Takeoffs with no more than 50% of the airgroup

[The Rock Doctor]

The B-class sloops are intended to be open-ocean escorts for trade protection and, where appropriate, defence of naval auxiliaries.

The hull form is based on the Liedtke class sloops, although it is finer and faster.  The forward 100mm mounting might get wet, but it is 6 metres above sea level, behind a breakwater, and fully enclosed, so hopefully it won't be too bad.  The aft weapons are superfiring to keep them dry as well.

The armament could be heavier.  It's thought that the 100mm might be easier to handle than the larger 130mm shells if the ship is bouncing around in mid-Atlantic conditions, but it will put the hurt on a surface submarine or an attacking aircraft.  Two 2-gun mounts were considered but I thought it might make for a crowded ship in terms of crew members so stuck with singles.  The ship is not really intended to take on anti-ship duties, hence the lack of torpedoes and the big guns; ideally, they'll be in convoy with bigger guys to do that stuff.

The inclusion of a howitzer is unusual enough but it's a modern-ish piece and worth trying as an ASW weapon.  Worse comes to worst, it gets yanked out and replaced by another 100mm, 50mm, or Hedgehog analogue in a future refit.

The ship has a towing rig aft to help with search and rescue, and I might use some of the unallocated miscellaneous weight for either fire monitors or temporary accommodation for survivors, not sure yet.


Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1931

Displacement:
   964 t light; 1,017 t standard; 1,153 t normal; 1,263 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (249.74 ft / 236.22 ft) x 29.53 ft x (11.81 / 12.64 ft)
   (76.12 m / 72.00 m) x 9.00 m  x (3.60 / 3.85 m)

Armament:
      2 - 3.94" / 100 mm 45.0 cal guns - 30.78lbs / 13.96kg shells, 400 per gun
     Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1931 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck forward
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
      1 raised mount aft
      2 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 4.19lbs / 1.90kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mount, 1931 Model
     1 x Twin mount on centreline, aft deck forward
      1 double raised mount
      4 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1931 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, forward deck aft
      2 double raised mounts
      1 - 5.91" / 150 mm 25.0 cal gun - 93.53lbs / 42.43kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading gun in deck mount, 1931 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck forward
      1 raised mount
      Weight of broadside 164 lbs / 74 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.79" / 20 mm   0.59" / 15 mm            -
   2nd:   0.59" / 15 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.59" / 15 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.79" / 20 mm   0.59" / 15 mm            -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 2 shafts, 10,724 shp / 8,000 Kw = 24.03 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 246 tons

Complement:
   98 - 128

Cost:
   £0.370 million / $1.482 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 22 tons, 1.9%
      - Guns: 22 tons, 1.9%
   Armour: 14 tons, 1.2%
      - Armament: 14 tons, 1.2%
   Machinery: 321 tons, 27.8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 358 tons, 31.0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 189 tons, 16.4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 249 tons, 21.6%
      - Hull below water: 105 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 99 tons
      - Above deck: 45 tons

Fittings:
-3 t:  Fire control (AD)
-5 t:  Night-fighting doodads (AD)
-25 t:  Long-range radio (AD)
-20 t:  ASW munitions (4 DCT + DC) (FD)
-25 t:  Towing rig (FD)
-54 t:  Weight reserve/unassigned (FD)
-80 t:  Electric drive (BW)
-15 t:  Enhanced hydrophone package (BW)
-10 t:  Sonar (BW)

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,129 lbs / 512 Kg = 37.0 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
   Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 11.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.79

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.490 / 0.501
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.37 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 34
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4.92 ft / 1.50 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00%,  23.62 ft / 7.20 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00%,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00%,  11.81 ft / 3.60 m,  11.81 ft / 3.60 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00%,  11.81 ft / 3.60 m,  11.81 ft / 3.60 m
      - Average freeboard:      16.06 ft / 4.90 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 107.7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.3%
   Waterplane Area: 4,605 Square feet or 428 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 120%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 33 lbs/sq ft or 162 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.59
      - Longitudinal: 6.96
      - Overall: 0.75
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[The Rock Doctor]

There's a couple options for the 1931 coastal escort, though I've only simmed one of them.

The lower-cost option - although not by much cuz these are still cheap ships - is to replace the 75mm with a 75mm DP and the single 50mm with a couple of twins.  Since the hull strength can drop to 0.75, that's almost certainly achievable on the existing dimensions.

The higher-cost option adds the 75mm DP, a bit of range, but has only one 50mm twin.  The additional weight allowance instead goes to basic minesweeping kit.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1931

Displacement:
   261 t light; 278 t standard; 301 t normal; 319 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (157.01 ft / 147.64 ft) x 19.69 ft x (7.87 / 8.21 ft)
   (47.86 m / 45.00 m) x 6.00 m  x (2.40 / 2.50 m)

Armament:
      1 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal gun - 12.98lbs / 5.89kg shells, 400 per gun
     Dual purpose gun in deck mount, 1931 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck forward
      1 raised mount
      2 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 4.18lbs / 1.89kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mount, 1931 Model
     1 x Twin mount on centreline, aft deck centre
      1 raised mount
      4 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1931 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
      2 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 22 lbs / 10 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.79" / 20 mm   0.12" / 3 mm            -
   2nd:   0.79" / 20 mm   0.12" / 3 mm            -
   3rd:   0.59" / 15 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 2,815 shp / 2,100 Kw = 20.18 kts
   Range 3,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 41 tons

Complement:
   35 - 46

Cost:
   £0.098 million / $0.391 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 5 tons, 1.7%
      - Guns: 5 tons, 1.7%
   Armour: 4 tons, 1.2%
      - Armament: 4 tons, 1.2%
   Machinery: 84 tons, 28.0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 91 tons, 30.2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 40 tons, 13.2%
   Miscellaneous weights: 77 tons, 25.6%
      - Hull below water: 25 tons
      - Hull above water: 6 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 45 tons
      - Above deck: 1 tons

Fittings:
-15t:  Enhanced hydrophone package (BW)
-10t:  Sonar (BW)
-4t:  2x1 450mm torpedoes, fixed to fire just off the bows (FD)
-8t:  ASW weapons (FD)
-2t:  Nightfighting doodads (FD) I should put that above deck.
-6 + 6 t:  Weight reserve (BD/FD)
-25 t:  Minesweeping kit (FD)
-1 t:  1918 fire control (AD)

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     265 lbs / 120 Kg = 20.6 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 0.5 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 11.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.21
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.45

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.460 / 0.468
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 12.15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 69 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00%,  16.73 ft / 5.10 m,  12.80 ft / 3.90 m
      - Forward deck:   20.00%,  12.80 ft / 3.90 m,  8.86 ft / 2.70 m
      - Aft deck:   45.00%,  8.86 ft / 2.70 m,  8.86 ft / 2.70 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00%,  8.86 ft / 2.70 m,  8.86 ft / 2.70 m
      - Average freeboard:      10.35 ft / 3.16 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110.3%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 96.3%
   Waterplane Area: 1,869 Square feet or 174 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 21 lbs/sq ft or 103 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.59
      - Longitudinal: 6.98
      - Overall: 0.75
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Kaiser Kirk]

A hypothetical monitor to test out a hypothetical 500mm gun with a hypothetical 2,000 kg projectile.  So, like, ASROC or something.

A very long time ago, I wondered why they didn't apply the gun/missile combination of the M60A2 and M551 (and various Soviet tanks) to a 'modern' battleship and make a 21" gun that could also shoot a torpedo.
....you could try it.


On the escort, it's similar to the various Parthian ships.

I don't see a need for 2x QF forward, one 3-4" gun is enough to overawe an unarmed vessel to stop and search,
or pump a flurry of shells at a slowly submerging submarine sail.

I would advise a Diesel vessel.
As practical matter, they found it was hard to quiet down the steam plant entirely,
A marine diesel can be shut to a greater extent.

The background steam plant noise making hydrophones less effective than they could be. 
Here, that's a more storyline consideration, as who ever is moderating that conflict won't have time for that nuance...but.

Anyhow, the hydrophones are longer range and broader brush than the Sonar, which is short range but more accurate...right up until you enter the blind spot. Which is why having more than 1 ship tag teaming is good.

On ASW weapons, specifying is suggested. Otherwise the presumption would be just DC's.

I'd have to look it up again, but the WWI expectation was 1%-2% hit per attack , while by WW2 that had grown to a 5% - with the additional throwers making a larger pattern.  It seems like USN DDs would have up to 4 throwers, plus the stern rails, but still only 10-30 DCs. So not many attack patterns.

Subs vs. ASW hasn't come up *much* , so far Aircraft have been successful in catching 1915/1920 boats slowly submerging near harbors.
But I envision Attack, evasion attempt, Attack, Evasion, alternating.
If someone else is curating the battle, might be different.
Hmm I wandered a bit off topic.

[The Rock Doctor]

Indeed, I'm starting to specify ASW stuff now.  Got torpedo-boats, minesweepers, and harbour patrol craft done, will get the patrol boat/sloop group done soon.

[The Rock Doctor]

Thinking about the L-class torpedo-boats, which are due for a refit in 1931.

I can replace their 100mm guns with first-gen DP mounts; it sucks up most of the weight reserve.

Or I can keep the guns in place and use the weight for additional ASW stuff and 50mm AA. 

And I'm not quite sure how I want to approach it yet.  Cost isn't an issue, more of a "What's the more useful combo of armament" question at this point.

[Jefgte]

I can replace their 100mm guns with first-gen DP mounts; it sucks up most of the weight reserve.

Or I can keep the guns in place and use the weight for additional ASW stuff and 50mm AA.

Additional ASW stuff and 50mm AA.

[Kaiser Kirk]

 The impetus for DP main guns was a combination of anti-torpedo bomber work*, but also as area defense against high altitude bombers that many claimed would be fatal...and out of range of smaller guns.  The first is nice, is a little dependent on ship positioning, and aerial torpedoes have been shown to work on shipping- not so well at sea, but better vs. ships at anchor.  With non-SAP/AP bombs, the second is a bit dependent on if large bomber formations are expected.

As a priority, I would agree with Jefgte that the Mid AA (50s a bit large for good ROF, but that's an in-service lesson), and ASW would probably be seen as more useful for screening the core assets, especially as dive bombing is moving from a concept to a regular tactic in this time frame.

*Edit - this of course managed to omit the important part, that you could drop your mixed battery as well...

[The Rock Doctor]

50 may be a bit large but it fight with the Union's caliber choices (multiples of 50).  Plus I don't want to jump on the 40 bandwagon and I did 35 at Wesworld for so long.  We'll see.  45 is always there.

[The Rock Doctor]

Tweaked the big icebreaker to do it in 1930, since I've got a bit of tonnage to burn.  It weights 2t less than the 1931 iteration, I assume because the engines are a teeny bit heavier.

I also added 15 t below waterline for enhanced hydrophones, though I'm not actually certain they can be installed and kept operational on a ship that makes a habit of driving into and onto thick ice.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1930

Displacement:
   3,287 t light; 3,367 t standard; 3,645 t normal; 3,867 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (289.81 ft / 278.87 ft) x 55.77 ft x (16.40 / 17.15 ft)
   (88.33 m / 85.00 m) x 17.00 m  x (5.00 / 5.23 m)

Armament:
      1 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal gun - 12.98lbs / 5.89kg shells, 250 per gun
     Dual purpose gun in deck mount, 1930 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
      1 raised mount
      2 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 4.18lbs / 1.89kg shells, 1,000 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
      2 raised mounts
      4 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 4,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, forward deck centre
      2 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 22 lbs / 10 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm   181.27 ft / 55.25 m   7.87 ft / 2.40 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm     97.57 ft / 29.74 m   11.81 ft / 3.60 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      0.59" / 15 mm   181.27 ft / 55.25 m   14.44 ft / 4.40 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 42.65 ft / 13.00 m

   - Hull void:
      0.98" / 25 mm   278.87 ft / 85.00 m   14.44 ft / 4.40 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.79" / 20 mm   0.12" / 3 mm            -
   2nd:   0.59" / 15 mm   0.12" / 3 mm            -
   3rd:   0.59" / 15 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 3 shafts, 8,043 shp / 6,000 Kw = 18.87 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 500 tons

Complement:
   233 - 304

Cost:
   £0.630 million / $2.520 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 6 tons, 0.2%
      - Guns: 6 tons, 0.2%
   Armour: 355 tons, 9.7%
      - Belts: 147 tons, 4.0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 57 tons, 1.6%
      - Void: 147 tons, 4.0%
      - Armament: 4 tons, 0.1%
   Machinery: 244 tons, 6.7%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,233 tons, 33.8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 358 tons, 9.8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,449 tons, 39.8%
      - Hull below water: 549 tons
      - Hull above water: 400 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 300 tons
      - Above deck: 200 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     10,807 lbs / 4,902 Kg = 839.6 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 2.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.42
   Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 12.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.507
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16.70 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 5.91 ft / 1.80 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00%,  28.54 ft / 8.70 m,  23.62 ft / 7.20 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00%,  23.62 ft / 7.20 m,  23.62 ft / 7.20 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00%,  15.75 ft / 4.80 m,  15.75 ft / 4.80 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00%,  15.75 ft / 4.80 m,  15.75 ft / 4.80 m
      - Average freeboard:      20.08 ft / 6.12 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 67.6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 164.2%
   Waterplane Area: 10,363 Square feet or 963 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 158%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 73 lbs/sq ft or 356 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 5.03
      - Overall: 1.13
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

134 t D-E machinery BW
18.04 kts with 5000 kw actual top speed
15.11 kts at 2500 kw