1923 onwards Norse Design Thread

Started by Kaiser Kirk, October 18, 2023, 06:35:37 PM

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Kaiser Kirk

October 18, 2023, 06:35:37 PM
A place for the future designs :)
Did they beat the drum slowly,
Did they play the fife lowly,
Did they sound the death march, as they lowered you down,
Did the band play the last post and chorus,
Did the pipes play the flowers of the forest

Kaiser Kirk

#1
October 22, 2023, 09:35:05 AM
I've updated the Norse turns until 1928,
but it occurred to me that the Norse Fleet really needs more AA,
and  I should take care of that.

Since we don't HAVE the Springsharps for many of the posted designs,
I will be using (unless there's a protest) Moderator Handwaving to ease this.

I made SS's of a 'Capital' a 'Cruiser' and a 'Destroyer' AA refit.
I put in the main and secondary batteries of the various classes to figure out what the FC should be.
Norse ships have a ton of Miscellaneous weight, so the changes should come out of that.

I will budget for Basic Refits adding the AA, and changing the misc wt.

I will Eventually, use the Moderator ability to edit the old design posts with an 'AA refit' block.

Here is the list of 1928 classes getting the AA Refit.
The SS of the 'Capital' a 'Cruiser' and  'Destroyer' versions shall follow.


                                     
   Norse Class                                 
      Misc wt   Main +Sec   AA Refit   gunshields   mag changes   2 Floatplanes+CAT   New FC            
bb   Odin   799   1589   72   9   58   55   247            
   freyr   846   2271   72   9   58   55   320            
   thor   1023   3092   72   9   58   55   420            
   calgacas   1087   3124   72   9   58   55   429            
   surtur   1065   3675   72   9   58   55   482            
   Ullr   1040   3724   72   9   58   55   485            
   Vili   915   5932   72   9   58   55   693            
   selkirkshire   639   1285   72   9   58   55   201            
   Wicklow   959   2379   72   9   58   55   342            
                     1 Floatplanes+CAT               
cruiser   Har   227   55   37   2   33   30   33            
   Town   251   126   37   2   33   30   42            
   Danae   249   136   37   2   33   30   43            
   Geilo   266   136   37   2   33   30   45            
   Valkyrie   147   136   37   2   33   30   33            
                                    
CDS   Tanngrisnirr      944   37   2   33   30   99            
                                     
Destroyer                                    
   F-Class   58   14.3   4.61   0.4   10.7      2            
   G-Class   58   18.6   4.61   0.4   10.7      2.5            
   H-Class   58   35.7   4.61   0.4   10.7      4.1            
   Snekkja   71   91   4.61   0.4   10.7   +72t in 120mm   4.1            
   I-Class   69   45   4.61   0.4   10.7      5.9       Revised misc wt      
   J-Class   84   70.8   4.61   0.4   10.7      7.8       uses up reserve      
   K-Class   94   62.8   4.61   0.4   10.7      6.8      uses up reserve      
                                    
CDS   Vainamoinen      614   4.61   0.4   10.7      6.8            
                                    
                                    
Auxiliaries get 'Destroyer Refit', absorbed from misc wt reserve                                    
   MSW-1   42 reserve      4.61   0.4   10.7      1.3            
   Knarr   60 reserve      4.61   0.4   10.7      10.4            
                                    


Quote
Capital Ship, Norse AA Refit laid down 1928

Displacement:
   -58 t light; 0 t standard; 0 t normal; 0 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (0.00 ft / 0.00 ft) x 0.00 ft x (0.00 / NaN ft)
   (0.00 m / 0.00 m) x 0.00 m  x (0.00 / NaN m)

Armament:
      12 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 55.0 cal guns - 13.89lbs / 6.30kg shells, 400 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1920 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 1.70lbs / 0.77kg shells, 900 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
     4 x 4-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      12 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.55lbs / 0.25kg shells, 2,000 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
     12 x Single mounts layout not set
      Weight of broadside 200 lbs / 91 kg
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   3rd:   0.25" / 6 mm   0.25" / 6 mm      0.25" / 6 mm
   4th:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Immobile floating battery

Complement:
   0 - 0

Cost:
   £0.084 million / $0.337 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 72 tons, 0.0 %
      - Guns: 72 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: NaN tons, 0.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 58 tons, 0.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     NaN lbs / NaN Kg = NaN x 6 " / 152 mm shells or NaN torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): NaN
   Metacentric height NaN ft / NaN m
   Roll period: NaN seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): NaN %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): NaN
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): NaN

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / NaN
   Length to Beam Ratio: NaN : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 0.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 0 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): NaN
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): NaN
   Waterplane Area: 0 Square feet or 0 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): NaN
   Structure weight / hull surface area: NaN lbs/sq ft or NaN Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: NaN
      - Longitudinal: NaN
      - Overall: NaN
   Extremely poor machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room

Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide

Quote
Cruiser, Norse AA Refit laid down 1928

Displacement:
   -33 t light; 0 t standard; 0 t normal; 0 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (0.00 ft / 0.00 ft) x 0.00 ft x (0.00 / NaN ft)
   (0.00 m / 0.00 m) x 0.00 m  x (0.00 / NaN m)

Armament:
      6 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 55.0 cal guns - 13.89lbs / 6.30kg shells, 400 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1920 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 1.70lbs / 0.77kg shells, 900 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      12 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.55lbs / 0.25kg shells, 2,000 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 double raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 104 lbs / 47 kg
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   3rd:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Immobile floating battery

Complement:
   0 - 0

Cost:
   £0.044 million / $0.176 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 37 tons, 0.0 %
      - Guns: 37 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: NaN tons, 0.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 33 tons, 0.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     NaN lbs / NaN Kg = NaN x 6 " / 152 mm shells or NaN torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): NaN
   Metacentric height NaN ft / NaN m
   Roll period: NaN seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): NaN %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): NaN
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): NaN

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / NaN
   Length to Beam Ratio: NaN : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 0.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 0 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): NaN
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): NaN
   Waterplane Area: 0 Square feet or 0 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): NaN
   Structure weight / hull surface area: NaN lbs/sq ft or NaN Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: NaN
      - Longitudinal: NaN
      - Overall: NaN
   Extremely poor machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room

Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide


Quote
Capital Ship, Norse AA Refit laid down 1928

Displacement:
   -58 t light; 0 t standard; 0 t normal; 0 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (0.00 ft / 0.00 ft) x 0.00 ft x (0.00 / NaN ft)
   (0.00 m / 0.00 m) x 0.00 m  x (0.00 / NaN m)

Armament:
      12 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 55.0 cal guns - 13.89lbs / 6.30kg shells, 400 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1920 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 1.70lbs / 0.77kg shells, 900 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
     4 x 4-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      12 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.55lbs / 0.25kg shells, 2,000 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
     12 x Single mounts layout not set
      Weight of broadside 200 lbs / 91 kg
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   3rd:   0.25" / 6 mm   0.25" / 6 mm      0.25" / 6 mm
   4th:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Immobile floating battery

Complement:
   0 - 0

Cost:
   £0.084 million / $0.337 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 72 tons, 0.0 %
      - Guns: 72 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: NaN tons, 0.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 58 tons, 0.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     NaN lbs / NaN Kg = NaN x 6 " / 152 mm shells or NaN torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): NaN
   Metacentric height NaN ft / NaN m
   Roll period: NaN seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): NaN %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): NaN
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): NaN

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / NaN
   Length to Beam Ratio: NaN : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 0.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 0 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m,  0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      0.00 ft / 0.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): NaN
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): NaN
   Waterplane Area: 0 Square feet or 0 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): NaN
   Structure weight / hull surface area: NaN lbs/sq ft or NaN Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: NaN
      - Longitudinal: NaN
      - Overall: NaN
   Extremely poor machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room

Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide

Reasonable levels of AA?
Sufficient disclosure ?


Did they beat the drum slowly,
Did they play the fife lowly,
Did they sound the death march, as they lowered you down,
Did the band play the last post and chorus,
Did the pipes play the flowers of the forest

The Rock Doctor

#2
October 22, 2023, 10:02:00 AM
I think the general idea is sound.  Think the capital ship mount numbers need checking.

Kaiser Kirk

#3
October 22, 2023, 10:34:26 AM
Could you elucidate?
Do you have a better method?

For each capital ship class I added in the main guns and their secondary to get the proper weight.
I'm presuming the existing light guns and AA get removed.

Deck spots?
6 for the 75s, went with twins for a smaller footprint.
4 for the quads

Conceptually should be something like this - though I suppose they put 37s and 75s on turret tops back then too.
                   S1  S2                           S3
                   [37s]                            [37]
A     B                             Q                              X     Y


and you can stick a 25 just about anywhere.

The cost table winds up looking like this :

         Refurbishment tonnage       Refit IC   Refit BP      Cost $   Cost BP
                           
Odin   Battleship   2         0.882   0.162      0.882   0.162
Freyr   Battleship   2   21770      1.028   0.162      9.736   0.162
Thor   Battleship   2   26433      1.228   0.162      11.8012   0.162
Calcargas   Battleship   2   29410      1.246   0.162      13.01   0.162
Surtur   Battleship   2   28979      1.352   0.162      12.9436   0.162
Ullr, Skadi   Battlecruiser   2         1.358   0.162      1.358   0.162
Vili, Ve   Battleship   2         1.774   0.162      1.774   0.162
Selkirkshire   Armored Cruiser   3         1.185   0.243      1.185   0.243
Wicklow   Battlecruiser   4         2.144   0.324      2.144   0.324
               0   0      0   0
Town   Light Cruiser   5   4910      0.675   0.195      5.585   0.195
Har   Scout Cruiser   3   4502      0.432   0.117      3.1332   0.117
Danae   1915 Light Cruiser   12          1.74   0.468      1.74   0.468
Gielo   1918 Cruiser   10         1.47   0.39      1.47   0.39
Herja   1920 Valkyrie Cruiser   12         1.62   0.468      1.62   0.468
                           
Tanngrisnir   Large CDS   2         0.402   0.078      0.402   0.078
                           
                           
F-class   Destroyer 1908   13   747      0.23023   0.06513      2.17243   0.06513
G-class   Destroyer 1909   16   745      0.29136   0.08016      2.67536   0.08016
H-class   Destroyer 1914   16   890      0.31696   0.08016      3.16496   0.08016
Sn 1-12   Snekkja DD 1916   28          0.55468   0.14028      0.55468   0.14028
I-Class   Idun DD 1917   16          0.34576   0.08016      0.34576   0.08016
J-Class   Jotun DD 1920   16          0.37616   0.08016      0.37616   0.08016
K-Class   Kadir DD 1923   22          0.49522   0.11022      0.49522   0.11022
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
MS20   MSW   42         0.71442   0.21042      0.71442   0.21042
Knarr   Support   8         0.20888   0.04008      0.20888   0.04008
               0   0      0   0
               0   0      0   0
               0   0      0   0
ML1   Minelayer   8          0.14168   0.04008      0.14168   0.04008
ML9   Minelayer   4   607      0.07084   0.02004      0.55644   0.02004
MS9   Minesweeper   10   191      0.1771   0.0501      0.5591   0.0501
Sleipnir   Gunboat   6          0.10626   0.03006      0.10626   0.03006
RGB81   Gunboat   20   101      0.3542   0.1002      0.7582   0.1002
Natica   Collier   3         0.05313   0.01503      0.05313   0.01503
Pyro   Ammunition   2         0.03542   0.01002      0.03542   0.01002
Bridge   Stores   4         0.07084   0.02004      0.07084   0.02004
Mytilus   Support   1         0.01771   0.00501      0.01771   0.00501
                           
                           
                     TOTAL COST   81.79065   4.59435
                           


Did they beat the drum slowly,
Did they play the fife lowly,
Did they sound the death march, as they lowered you down,
Did the band play the last post and chorus,
Did the pipes play the flowers of the forest

The Rock Doctor

#4
October 22, 2023, 01:16:33 PM
I mean the SS snippets indicate the capital ship sims have twelve guns but in just six single mountings.

Kaiser Kirk

#5
October 22, 2023, 01:57:15 PM Last Edit: October 22, 2023, 02:13:22 PM by Kaiser Kirk
That's a good catch,
I will swap that to doubles and check for weight changes.


Ed : original version Gun : 17, mount 56, mag 58

Revised 2-Gun 75AA.. same. Guess it's counting number of barrels x mount type ?
Or the % change is too small.

lets try 1000 on 500 single mounts : 102/392
vs 1000 on 500 two-gun : same. Curious.


Armament:
      12 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 55.0 cal guns - 13.89lbs / 6.30kg shells, 400 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1920 Model
     6 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
      16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 1.70lbs / 0.77kg shells, 900 per gun
     Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
     4 x 4-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      12 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.55lbs / 0.25kg shells, 2,000 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
     12 x Single mounts layout not set
      Weight of broadside 200 lbs / 91 kg
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   3rd:   0.25" / 6 mm   0.25" / 6 mm      0.25" / 6 mm
   4th:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

Did they beat the drum slowly,
Did they play the fife lowly,
Did they sound the death march, as they lowered you down,
Did the band play the last post and chorus,
Did the pipes play the flowers of the forest
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