Japanese Ship Designs Pre-1912

[Kaiser Kirk]

Sorry it took me so long to get to reviewing the rest of these.
I saw a number of long range and exploratory ships, and while I disallowed the minelayer, I could see Japan being involved in the Pacific Basin, so I left those alone.

Your encyclopedia is set up, let me know if you need changes.

[Desertfox]

That's a Thai name :)
10" guns are in excess of 210mm,
Therefore this needs capital ship architecture.
The minimum upper belt is the minimum hardenable thickness in that era - 90mm.
25mm is not adequate.

That it is, its the name of the ship than inspired it, and a bit of foreshadowing...

Does it have to have an upper belt? This is no capital ship by any stretch of the imagination, other than the main guns. If say the main belt was 3" (76 mm) would the upper belt still have to be 90mm? I mean this ship is not armored against capital ship guns at all.

Curious why you stopped at 1.0 when the 1900 cruiser tech allows 0.9 for cruisers under 6000t ?

I was designing it under the capital ship architecture rules, but since that requires upper and end belts, I should redo this under the cruiser rules, that should let me add some more misc weight.

First, don't let Snip see you using the torpedo function of SS3.  That's not how we are doing Torps - they are all listed under Miscellaneous weight.

I used it mainly to keep track of how many and where they are for myself. I make sure to include sufficient misc weight for them. I do have to go back and make sure the torpedoes are properly listed under misc weight.

Lastly, ultimately things like amphibious invasions will be governed by deployment points, not sending 4, 10 or even 20 of these somewhere.
That said, a bunch of my ships have landing craft and marines because they will be nice story elements

Im building these mainly for story purposes and also because they make quite nice AMCs. That said, I'll have to drop some weight to keep the torps, or drop the torps themselves, there's other ways to sink merchants ships available.

Fourth, "armored deck, multiple deck" means you're splitting that 13mm up.  Also, the difference between an armored deck and a protective deck is the protective usually is only a meter +/- above the waterline- while the armored deck is higher up and so needs a belt to keep shells from passing under it.

Fifth - a second time I've seen 14 knots as cruise.

Mistake on my part, this is a single 1" deck.

These are fast scout ships, they will be steaming faster in general. Do need to fix the misc weight on them.

No wireless?
The only sailing rig rules we have are from N3 or so. The lowest amount that really does much of anything is half hull speed costs 5% of normal tons. Or 64tons.  With 2/3 underwater and 1/3 above deck.
You're close. I suppose the ship would move a bit, perhaps 5-6kts instead of 9kts.

Good to know, I'll revise accordingly.

The purpose is a dedicated minelayer. Mines are weapons. This is a warship.

Also, from the standpoint of "just waking up", the idea that 6 years ago NPC Japan would have built a minelayer capable of offensive minelaying 4500nm away...
Sorry but no. That does not fit the concept of what the NPCs are.  You can build it your very first turn live.

Just curious, why does it have a full length upper belt, but no lower...and of ineffectual 13mm plating?  What is that supposed to do??

I figured this ship might be a little too much... How should we deal with say converted merchant ships turned into minelayers? Minewarfare was a big part of the OTL Russo-Japanese War, so while this ship is a non-starter, some minelayers would not be too far out of the question.

The upper belt was supposed to be splinter protection for the mines.

So, no mortars at sea in 1907.

Welp... I guess they can be a machinegun team or some light artillery.

I saw a number of long range and exploratory ships, and while I disallowed the minelayer, I could see Japan being involved in the Pacific Basin, so I left those alone.

Most of the long range and exploratory ships, I deliberately made with a later date as Japan stops looking inward and starts looking outward. The early long-range ships were based on historical ships.

[Desertfox]

Updated Agano, 300t cheaper, now with a protected cruiser armor layout. Range is 11,500nm at 10kts.

Agano class, Japan Cruiser laid down 1910

Displacement:
   3,700 t light; 3,923 t standard; 4,760 t normal; 5,430 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (400.00 ft / 400.00 ft) x 49.00 ft x (17.00 / 18.80 ft)
   (121.92 m / 121.92 m) x 14.94 m  x (5.18 / 5.73 m)

Armament:
      4 - 8.00" / 203 mm 45.0 cal guns - 258.18lbs / 117.11kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1910 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      8 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1910 Model
     8 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 1,537 lbs / 697 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      4 - 18.0" / 457 mm, 0.00 ft / 0.00 m torpedoes - 0.000 t each, 0.000 t total
   In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.00" / 51 mm   230.00 ft / 70.10 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 88 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.00" / 127 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      5.00" / 127 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 20,168 shp / 15,045 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 5,400nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,507 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   286 - 372

Cost:
   £0.377 million / $1.510 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 308 tons, 6.5 %
      - Guns: 308 tons, 6.5 %
   Armour: 798 tons, 16.8 %
      - Belts: 276 tons, 5.8 %
      - Armament: 164 tons, 3.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 358 tons, 7.5 %
   Machinery: 908 tons, 19.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,466 tons, 30.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,060 tons, 22.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 220 tons, 4.6 %
      - Hull above water: 70 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 150 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     5,766 lbs / 2,616 Kg = 22.5 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
   Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 13.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.32

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.516
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.16 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   30.00 %,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Aft deck:   25.00 %,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:      15.24 ft / 4.65 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 130.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 13,059 Square feet or 1,213 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 78 lbs/sq ft or 382 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.83
      - Longitudinal: 1.73
      - Overall: 0.90
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

70t - FC +  Long-range wireless
10t - 4 x 18" torpedo tubes
40t - 2 x extra boats
100t - Marine accommodations and acclimatization

[snip]

The range feels very very high for a nation that until recently has not done much outside of its boarders.

[Desertfox]

High cruising speeds do that, its only 5400nm at 14kts. Range basically doubles at a lower cruise speed, but this ship is designed to cruise fast, since it can function as either a raider or a raider-hunter. Range was actually worse in my first iteration (7000nm at 14kts). I see the 1910+ ships as a new generation designed for a more outward look, to coincide when the other powers start colonizing, thereby giving Japan the ability to colonize itself in 1912.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Does it have to have an upper belt? This is no capital ship by any stretch of the imagination, other than the main guns. If say the main belt was 3" (76 mm) would the upper belt still have to be 90mm? I mean this ship is not armored against capital ship guns at all.

Until you have 'All or Nothing', if you choose to build a ship with capital ship guns, you are also choosing to follow capital ship architecture, when means you have an upper belt.  The defined minimum thickness is 90mm.  Having a main belt protecting the vitals, thinner than the upper belt would be gross negligence, so I'm sure your designers would not make that error.

I used it mainly to keep track of how many and where they are for myself. I make sure to include sufficient misc weight for them. I do have to go back and make sure the torpedoes are properly listed under misc weight.

We just Do Not include Torps there under weapons, we simply define it under miscellaneous weight. Avoids this double counting type issue, and that way everyone knows where to look each time. 

I figured this ship might be a little too much... How should we deal with say converted merchant ships turned into minelayers? Minewarfare was a big part of the OTL Russo-Japanese War, so while this ship is a non-starter, some minelayers would not be too far out of the question.

If you figure it might be a bit much but you want to have a discussion - post it as a separate thread so to call attention to it so as to spur a conversation.

I'm making a point to go through these so that we don't wind up with something that has to get fixed later.
But most of the time browsing each other's designs and questioning things is a group thing.

Right now, there simply isn't rules covering alot of aspects of war, including rushed conversions. It's the type of thing I (or whomever is the mod) will have to look at.

In the interim- most navies built dedicated minelayers.  The Parthians have some, and then several Parthian PCs have provisions for mines, while they have a modest and growing MSW fleet.

But think of it this way - Mercantile ships cost less to maintain too... do you really want a number of undertrained folks handling tons of explosives and maintaining the fuses for the years between conflicts? 

[Desertfox]

To be fair, I don't know why I was trying to build it under the merchant rules, if anything I have too much starting BP I need to spend. Most of the early OTL Japanese minelayers where actually PC conversions, so that will be a good use of some of the older ships going forward.

That said, if I were to build it under warship rules and make it "defensive" (drop the range), there wouldn't be a problem with it?

[Kaiser Kirk]

To be fair, I don't know why I was trying to build it under the merchant rules, if anything I have too much starting BP I need to spend. Most of the early OTL Japanese minelayers where actually PC conversions, so that will be a good use of some of the older ships going forward.

That said, if I were to build it under warship rules and make it "defensive" (drop the range), there wouldn't be a problem with it?

Correct.
The Shogunate has a reasonable need for minelayers run by professionals to protect their own harbors or interdict those of China or the Horde.

[Desertfox]

2-4 Built, armor represents an armored splinter-proof box for the mines.

Tokiwa class, Japan Minelayer laid down 1906

Displacement:
   2,250 t light; 2,319 t standard; 2,613 t normal; 2,849 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (340.00 ft / 340.00 ft) x 45.00 ft x (12.20 / 13.02 ft)
   (103.63 m / 103.63 m) x 13.72 m  x (3.72 / 3.97 m)

Armament:
      2 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 170 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1906 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1906 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 181 lbs / 82 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   1.00" / 25 mm   290.00 ft / 88.39 m   5.00 ft / 1.52 m

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,284 ihp / 5,434 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 5,400nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 529 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   182 - 237

Cost:
   £0.230 million / $0.922 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 31 tons, 1.2 %
      - Guns: 31 tons, 1.2 %
   Armour: 150 tons, 5.7 %
      - Belts: 58 tons, 2.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 92 tons, 3.5 %
   Machinery: 1,021 tons, 39.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 679 tons, 26.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 363 tons, 13.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 370 tons, 14.2 %
      - Hull above water: 300 tons
      - Above deck: 70 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,524 lbs / 691 Kg = 24.4 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.56
   Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 10.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.04
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.34

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck ,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.490 / 0.501
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.56 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.44 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   40.00 %,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Aft deck:   0.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarter deck:   30.00 %,  7.00 ft / 2.13 m,  7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Average freeboard:      9.74 ft / 2.97 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 142.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 105.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 10,102 Square feet or 939 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 50 lbs/sq ft or 245 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 0.95
      - Overall: 0.90
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

300t - Mines

[Desertfox]

Better? I still think the original design could be granted an exception under the following. Since its nowhere close to being a capital ship.

Exceptions to architectural classifications may be granted by the Moderators at their discretion. This is to allow for ships of unusual design or concept, and for certain OTL historical outliers that do not fit easily in this system.

Thonburi class, Japan Coastal Defense Ship laid down 1907

Displacement:
   3,301 t light; 3,560 t standard; 3,835 t normal; 4,056 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (300.00 ft / 300.00 ft) x 50.00 ft x (15.70 / 16.42 ft)
   (91.44 m / 91.44 m) x 15.24 m  x (4.79 / 5.01 m)

Armament:
      4 - 10.00" / 254 mm 45.0 cal guns - 504.26lbs / 228.73kg shells, 140 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1907 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1907 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.03lbs / 1.83kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1907 Model
     4 x Triple mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 2,318 lbs / 1,051 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   200.00 ft / 60.96 m   5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Ends:   1.00" / 25 mm   100.00 ft / 30.48 m   5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   200.00 ft / 60.96 m   5.00 ft / 1.52 m
     Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 1.00" / 25 mm
   Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 7.00" / 178 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5,366 ihp / 4,003 Kw = 17.00 kts
   Range 4,050nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 496 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   243 - 316

Cost:
   £0.412 million / $1.648 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 511 tons, 13.3 %
      - Guns: 511 tons, 13.3 %
   Armour: 840 tons, 21.9 %
      - Belts: 368 tons, 9.6 %
      - Armament: 236 tons, 6.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 199 tons, 5.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 37 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 579 tons, 15.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,290 tons, 33.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 534 tons, 13.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 2.1 %
      - Above deck: 80 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3,583 lbs / 1,625 Kg = 7.2 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 14.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.25

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.570 / 0.576
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   35.00 %,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Aft deck:   20.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:      10.56 ft / 3.22 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 83.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 10,667 Square feet or 991 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 92 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 103 lbs/sq ft or 504 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.06
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Desertfox]

Updated Chihaya class using sailing rules, capable of 10kts under sail. Also added a wireless.

Chihaya class, Japan Gunboat laid down 1902

Displacement:
   1,100 t light; 1,142 t standard; 1,282 t normal; 1,395 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (301.94 ft / 300.00 ft) x 34.00 ft x (10.00 / 10.61 ft)
   (92.03 m / 91.44 m) x 10.36 m  x (3.05 / 3.23 m)

Armament:
      2 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 170 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1902 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1902 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 181 lbs / 82 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Conning towers: Forward 0.50" / 13 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 4,715 ihp / 3,517 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 3,700nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 253 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   106 - 139

Cost:
   £0.132 million / $0.527 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 31 tons, 2.4 %
      - Guns: 31 tons, 2.4 %
   Armour: 4 tons, 0.3 %
      - Armament: 3 tons, 0.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.1 %
   Machinery: 604 tons, 47.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 377 tons, 29.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 183 tons, 14.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 84 tons, 6.6 %
      - Hull below water: 37 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 29 tons
      - Above deck: 18 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     653 lbs / 296 Kg = 10.5 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.70
   Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 9.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 77 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.51

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.440 / 0.451
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.82 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   30.00 %,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Aft deck:   25.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:      9.24 ft / 2.82 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 162.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 104.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 6,454 Square feet or 600 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 81 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 41 lbs/sq ft or 201 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.88
      - Longitudinal: 1.08
      - Overall: 0.90
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

60t - Auxilary sail rigging
20t
4t - 2 18" Torpedoes

[Desertfox]

Look at that, down to 5.3 starting BPs left, 2.7 of which is 1896 tonnage.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Look at that, down to 5.3 starting BPs left, 2.7 of which is 1896 tonnage.

You made it !
...almost...

:)

2-4 Built, armor represents an armored splinter-proof box for the mines.

Tokiwa class, Japan Minelayer laid down 1906

Looks good.

Better? I still think the original design could be granted an exception under the following. Since its nowhere close to being a capital ship.

Exceptions to architectural classifications may be granted by the Moderators at their discretion. This is to allow for ships of unusual design or concept, and for certain OTL historical outliers that do not fit easily in this system.

Thonburi class, Japan Coastal Defense Ship laid down 1907

[/quote]

The vessel as originally presented did not come close to being an unusual design or concept, nor a historical outlier.
Rather it reminded me of OTL Thonburi with 10" guns instead of 8", or the OTL Vainamoinian Class, with 4x10" guns. Very small coast defense ships with big guns are not unusual.  Rather the opposite.

Better, not quite there.

You're trying to just do enough to barely qualify.

For this tech level, you're trying to field effective armor system against smaller quick fire guns firing large numbers of shells at fairly close ranges of 3-6km, penetrating your side and bursting, setting fires and wrecking things. These short range flat firing guns are unlikely to hit your decks, but the side armor is important.

Most of the vessel has a 3.05m freeboard. There's not a lot of waste space from a tall hull for seakeeping, it's a minimal hull.
Now, belts don't *have* to reach freeboard, but this one doesn't have excess.

The belts do have to be functional, and with that little of a freeboard one would not leave a gap to allow QF weapons the access.

You shrunk the belt height from 2.13m to 1.52m. There's either a gap between the top belt and freeboard, or between the main belt and the water.   I'm also having trouble seeing 1.52m as a reasonable deck height.  Person + structure+ piping > 1.52m
Plus the belt should extend at least half a meter below water....should be more but there were some historically shallow ones in this time period and you're trying to minimize.
And if there's any of the main belt underwater the entire system shifts down and that gap gets bigger.

If using this basic hull, extend your belt combo from freeboard to 0.5m underwater.   The upper belt should at least be 2m...probably more but you may have short sailors.

Oh, and you likely want the 5" to be QF.

Plain ol protected cruiser. Two built, Suma, Akashi.

Covered this already.. but as an information thing -

It's not something that made it into the design guidelines and so it's more a practical observation

As a general note, one of the things Walter and I debated what just how much could you reasonably cram into a ship and under a protective deck...
I was thinking the 100% hull, he went for 130% based on some analysis of some hulls.
... But at 167.6% one should expect that some important things are still sticking up above the protective deck.
However designers did that.  The original battlecruiser version of USS Lexington had a bunch of boilers on top of the protective deck.

Overall nice little ship.

Updated Chihaya class using sailing rules, capable of 10kts under sail. Also added a wireless.

Chihaya class, Japan Gunboat laid down 1902

Cool.

[Desertfox]

The vessel as originally presented did not come close to being an unusual design or concept, nor a historical outlier.
Rather it reminded me of OTL Thonburi with 10" guns instead of 8", or the OTL Vainamoinian Class, with 4x10" guns. Very small coast defense ships with big guns are not unusual.  Rather the opposite.

I should have said unusual in the sense when compared to true capital ships, since they share nothing in common with say a Gilgamesh, while still being constrained to the same architecture. Coast defense ships and monitors really should be independent from capital ships. But we can have that discussion at another time.

I'll just remove this two ships from the IJN OOB. They where quirky ones that didn't quite fit anyways.


So I decided to see what would happen if I refurbished the Sama class PCs as minelayers (like in OTL). The result is slightly better than the Tokiwa class but very expensive (1.9 BP, $3.3) which is 70% of BP cost of the original ship and 120% of the $$ cost. I think we should revisit the refit/refurbishment/reconstruct rules at some point in time as it appears they are too expensive, can be simplified, and will for the moment likely cause players to simply replace old ships with new.

Suma class, Japan Cruiser laid down 1892 (Engine 1907)

Displacement:
   2,771 t light; 2,861 t standard; 3,226 t normal; 3,518 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (300.00 ft / 300.00 ft) x 41.00 ft x (17.00 / 18.20 ft)
   (91.44 m / 91.44 m) x 12.50 m  x (5.18 / 5.55 m)

Armament:
      2 - 6.00" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 108.92lbs / 49.41kg shells, 140 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1907 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1892 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 327 lbs / 148 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   1.00" / 25 mm   300.00 ft / 91.44 m   5.00 ft / 1.52 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.00" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 1.00" / 25 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8,822 ihp / 6,581 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 5,900nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 657 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   213 - 278

Cost:
   £0.318 million / $1.274 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 76 tons, 2.4 %
      - Guns: 76 tons, 2.4 %
   Armour: 205 tons, 6.3 %
      - Belts: 56 tons, 1.7 %
      - Armament: 16 tons, 0.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 129 tons, 4.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.1 %
   Machinery: 1,396 tons, 43.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 754 tons, 23.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 455 tons, 14.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 340 tons, 10.5 %
      - On freeboard deck: 300 tons
      - Above deck: 40 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,368 lbs / 620 Kg = 12.7 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
   Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 12.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.18
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.540 / 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.32 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Average freeboard:      11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 147.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 83.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 8,504 Square feet or 790 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 86 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 59 lbs/sq ft or 287 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.84
      - Longitudinal: 1.63
      - Overall: 0.90
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Desertfox]

Had 0.8 BP left to burn for 1907+ ships. So a dedicated diplomatic ship that can serve as a troop ship/hospital ship/AMC in wartime, with a secondary intelligence gathering capability on the side.  Armor represents hull strengthening for dealing with ice and/or unintentional groundings.

Tatsuta Maru, Japan Diplomatic Ship laid down 1910

Displacement:
   3,200 t light; 3,288 t standard; 4,420 t normal; 5,325 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (350.00 ft / 350.00 ft) x 50.00 ft x (17.00 / 19.67 ft)
   (106.68 m / 106.68 m) x 15.24 m  x (5.18 / 5.99 m)

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm   350.00 ft / 106.68 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12,243 shp / 9,133 Kw = 21.00 kts
   Range 7,590nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,037 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   270 - 352

Cost:
   £0.189 million / $0.757 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Armour: 65 tons, 1.5 %
      - Belts: 65 tons, 1.5 %
   Machinery: 551 tons, 12.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,234 tons, 27.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,220 tons, 27.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,350 tons, 30.5 %
      - Hull below water: 500 tons
      - Hull above water: 500 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 200 tons
      - Above deck: 150 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9,076 lbs / 4,117 Kg = 84.0 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.43
   Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 11.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.87

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise aft of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.520 / 0.542
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.71 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 38
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   30.00 %,  20.00 ft / 6.10 m,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Aft deck:   25.00 %,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Average freeboard:      17.06 ft / 5.20 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 11,876 Square feet or 1,103 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 176 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 64 lbs/sq ft or 312 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.30
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, rides out heavy weather easily

50t - "Flag" accommodations
50t - 2  x long-range wireless
25t - Experimental "radar" (1905)
25t - Extra navigation/surveying equipment
200t - 4 x 20 ton tenders (25 passengers each)
500t - 100 x Passenger accommodations
500t - Extra supplies