Norse Ships

[Walter]

Better to have a separate thread for the new navy like Jeff and Darman are doing instead of posting it all in one thread that might end up looking quite disorganized...

First one is the oldest (I think) 'operational' vessel planned for the Norse Navy. Not going to be useful but just there for fun. :)
As the vessel is circular (and will have its issues), the diameter is 101 feet so a 101 feet main belt is not going to give proper protection so that is where the 58 feet ends belt is for (as SS3 freaks out if I go over 101 feet with the main belt). The bottom 8 feet of the ends belt is the extension of the 9" main belt and thus 9" thick. The top 5 feet of the ends belt is the extension of the 5" upper belt and thus 5" thick. I added the weights that SS gave me for both extensions and got a 7.5" thickness for a belt of 58x13 feet to sim that particular combined weight.

The OTL one had 11" guns, but I do not have that one planned for the Norse Navy so I had to go for either the 305mm guns or the 250mm guns and settled for the latter as the raised guns meant that it was going to be a bigger issue to solve when going for the bigger guns...

NNS Novgorod, Norse  Monitor laid down 1871

Barbette ship

Displacement:
   2,684 t light; 2,776 t standard; 2,824 t normal; 2,862 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (101.00 ft / 101.00 ft) x 101.00 ft x (14.00 / 14.17 ft)
   (30.78 m / 30.78 m) x 30.78 m  x (4.27 / 4.32 m)

Armament:
      2 - 9.84" / 250 mm 40.0 cal guns - 386.36lbs / 175.25kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in open barbette mount, 1871 Model
     1 x Twin mount on centreline, forward deck aft
      1 raised mount
      2 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 40.0 cal guns - 1.26lbs / 0.57kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1871 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
      2 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 775 lbs / 352 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.00" / 229 mm   101.00 ft / 30.78 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   7.50" / 191 mm     58.00 ft / 17.68 m   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
   Upper:   5.00" / 127 mm   101.00 ft / 30.78 m   5.00 ft / 1.52 m
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:         -            -         10.0" / 254 mm

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.75" / 70 mm
   Forecastle: 2.75" / 70 mm  Quarter deck: 2.75" / 70 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 12.00" / 305 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 6 shafts, 246 ihp / 184 Kw = 6.50 kts
   Range 500nm at 6.50 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 87 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   193 - 251

Cost:
   £0.147 million / $0.589 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 148 tons, 5.3 %
      - Guns: 148 tons, 5.3 %
   Armour: 1,224 tons, 43.3 %
      - Belts: 572 tons, 20.2 %
      - Armament: 184 tons, 6.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 416 tons, 14.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 52 tons, 1.8 %
   Machinery: 59 tons, 2.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,218 tons, 43.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 139 tons, 4.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 35 tons, 1.2 %
      - Above deck: 35 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     8,171 lbs / 3,706 Kg = 24.0 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 6.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.75
   Metacentric height 12.7 ft / 3.9 m
   Roll period: 11.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.692 / 0.693
   Length to Beam Ratio: 1.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 10.05 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 97
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  5.00 ft / 1.52 m,  5.00 ft / 1.52 m
      - Forward deck:   40.00 %,  5.00 ft / 1.52 m,  5.00 ft / 1.52 m
      - Aft deck:   25.00 %,  5.00 ft / 1.52 m,  5.00 ft / 1.52 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  5.00 ft / 1.52 m,  5.00 ft / 1.52 m
      - Average freeboard:      5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 23.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 40.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 8,118 Square feet or 754 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 156 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 158 lbs/sq ft or 772 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.80
      - Longitudinal: 7.78
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Walter]

A slightly more modern vessel than the Monitor, based off the British Topaze class...

NNS Topas, Norse Protected Cruiser laid down 1903


Displacement:
   3,013 t light; 3,137 t standard; 3,443 t normal; 3,688 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (363.00 ft / 360.00 ft) x 40.00 ft x (16.00 / 16.87 ft)
   (110.64 m / 109.73 m) x 12.19 m  x (4.88 / 5.14 m)

Armament:
      12 - 3.94" / 100.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 30.78lbs / 13.96kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1903 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
     10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.20lbs / 1.45kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1903 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 395 lbs / 179 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.75" / 44 mm
   Forecastle: 0.75" / 19 mm  Quarter deck: 0.75" / 19 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3.00" / 76 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12,133 ihp / 9,051 Kw = 22.00 kts
   Range 4,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 551 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   224 - 292

Cost:
   £0.378 million / $1.512 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 111 tons, 3.2 %
      - Guns: 111 tons, 3.2 %
   Armour: 328 tons, 9.5 %
      - Armament: 28 tons, 0.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 286 tons, 8.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 15 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,670 tons, 48.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 860 tons, 25.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 430 tons, 12.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 43 tons, 1.2 %
      - Hull below water: 8 tons
      - Above deck: 35 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,309 lbs / 594 Kg = 42.9 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.41
   Metacentric height 2.3 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 11.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.21
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.11

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.523 / 0.531
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.97 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -2.00 ft / -0.61 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Forward deck:   15.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Aft deck:   50.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 168.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 83.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 9,800 Square feet or 910 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 80 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 60 lbs/sq ft or 295 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.11
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Walter]

... and can't have a proper northern navy without a proper exploration vessel for the well-known Norwegian Viking Norse explorers. :)

The 6.5mm guns are actually Krag-Jørgensen rifles, one for each crew member or expedition member.

KFS Fram, Norse Schooner laid down 1892


Displacement:
   685 t light; 702 t standard; 865 t normal; 995 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (136.55 ft / 118.90 ft) x 34.00 ft x (11.50 / 12.99 ft)
   (41.62 m / 36.24 m) x 10.36 m  x (3.51 / 3.96 m)

Armament:
      84 - 0.26" / 6.5 mm 117.0 cal guns - 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 500 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1892 Model
     84 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 1 lbs / 0 kg

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 104 ihp / 77 Kw = 7.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 7.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 292 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   79 - 103

Cost:
   £0.029 million / $0.117 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 6 tons, 0.7 %
      - Guns: 6 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 20 tons, 2.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 230 tons, 26.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 180 tons, 20.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 429 tons, 49.6 %
      - Hull below water: 150 tons
      - Hull above water: 122 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 70 tons
      - Above deck: 87 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     2,162 lbs / 981 Kg = 257,995.1 x 0.3 " / 7 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.34
   Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 11.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise aft of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a round stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.651 / 0.663
   Length to Beam Ratio: 3.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 10.90 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 36 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 32.50 degrees
   Stern overhang: 9.50 ft / 2.90 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   21.00 %,  12.80 ft / 3.90 m,  9.10 ft / 2.77 m
      - Forward deck:   35.00 %,  9.10 ft / 2.77 m,  7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Aft deck:   29.30 %,  10.60 ft / 3.23 m,  11.80 ft / 3.60 m
      - Quarter deck:   14.70 %,  11.80 ft / 3.60 m,  13.70 ft / 4.18 m
      - Average freeboard:      10.20 ft / 3.11 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 45.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 69.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 3,057 Square feet or 284 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 175 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 50 lbs/sq ft or 244 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.03
      - Longitudinal: 7.01
      - Overall: 1.25
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Actual base crew: 16-21 (divided by 5 instead of 10)

Hull below water (150 tons).
- 25 tons for reserve long range wireless radio.
- 10 tons for reserve short range wireless radio.
- 10 tons for expedition short range wireless.
- 40 tons for expedition gear.
- 65 tons for extra stores.
Hull above water (122 tons).
- 18 tons for 3 expedition leader cabins.
- 60 tons for 20 scientists and/or senior expedition members cabins.
- 44 tons for 40 other expedition members cabins.
On deck (70 tons).
- 25 tons for long range wireless radio.
- 10 tons for short range wireless radio.
- 10 tons for extra boats and davits.
- 20 tons for expedition gear stored on deck.
- 5 tons for cargo hold crane.
Above deck (87 tons).
- 87 tons for sails and rigging (sailing speed 10.45 knots).

[Walter]

Still needs to be slightly tweaked when it comes to miscellaneous weights but mostly done.

NNS Not-Sure-Yet-On-What-Names-I-Should-Apply-To-My-Battleships, Norse Battleship laid down 1906


Displacement:
   14,081 t light; 14,933 t standard; 16,663 t normal; 18,047 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (455.00 ft / 450.00 ft) x 80.00 ft x (25.00 / 26.76 ft)
   (138.68 m / 137.16 m) x 24.38 m  x (7.62 / 8.16 m)

Armament:
      8 - 12.01" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 873.08lbs / 396.02kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1906 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts - superfiring
      22 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 13.63lbs / 6.18kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1906 Model
     22 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
      8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1.64lbs / 0.74kg shells, 450 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1906 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 7,298 lbs / 3,310 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   300.00 ft / 91.44 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   150.00 ft / 45.72 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   300.00 ft / 91.44 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.50" / 64 mm
   Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 12.00" / 305 mm, Aft 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 15,011 shp / 11,198 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 9,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,113 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   733 - 953

Cost:
   £1.311 million / $5.245 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,308 tons, 7.9 %
      - Guns: 1,308 tons, 7.9 %
   Armour: 6,299 tons, 37.8 %
      - Belts: 3,049 tons, 18.3 %
      - Armament: 1,830 tons, 11.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,139 tons, 6.8 %
      - Conning Towers: 281 tons, 1.7 %
   Machinery: 1,062 tons, 6.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,358 tons, 32.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,582 tons, 15.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 55 tons, 0.3 %
      - Hull below water: 20 tons
      - Above deck: 35 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     28,701 lbs / 13,019 Kg = 33.2 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
   Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 15.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.72

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.648 / 0.656
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.63 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.21 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -4.00 ft / -1.22 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  20.00 ft / 6.10 m,  20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forward deck:   50.00 %,  20.00 ft / 6.10 m,  20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Aft deck:   15.00 %,  13.00 ft / 3.96 m,  13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  13.00 ft / 3.96 m,  13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Average freeboard:      17.90 ft / 5.46 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 58.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 27,528 Square feet or 2,557 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 153 lbs/sq ft or 746 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.12
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Walter]

... and since I have Belfast, I got to have these for the White North Star Line even if they are not crossing the Atlantic... which, considering what happened OTL, is probably not a bad thing...

No Royal Mail to worry about so no RMS designation is used for the Norse Liners. If I got it right with the Norwegian wiki pages, Steam Ship would be Damp Skip so DS instead of SS. Also Norwegian does not seem to be using the 'c' the way the English do so while I decided to use the names of British ocean liners as they are, a 'c' would either be an 's' or a 'k', depending on the sound (so in case of the Olympic, Titanic and Britannic Nordic, it would be Olympik, Titanik and Nordik).


DS Olympik, Norse Ocean Liner laid down 1908

(... well this picture as Olympic and Titanic would still be under construction at the start in 1910...)

Displacement:
   38,728 t light; 39,774 t standard; 52,310 t normal; 62,339 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (882.80 ft / 863.00 ft) x 92.50 ft x (36.00 / 41.81 ft)
   (269.08 m / 263.04 m) x 28.19 m  x (10.97 / 12.74 m)

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, reciprocating cruising steam engines and steam turbines
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 72,117 ihp / 53,799 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 24.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 22,565 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   1,729 - 2,248

Cost:
   £2.052 million / $8.207 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 4,974 tons, 9.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,254 tons, 27.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 13,583 tons, 26.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 19,500 tons, 37.3 %
      - Hull below water: 1,755 tons
      - Hull above water: 4,000 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 13,238 tons
      - Above deck: 507 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     138,259 lbs / 62,713 Kg = 1,280.2 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 8.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 16.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck ,
     a normal bow and a round stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.637 / 0.654
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.33 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 29.38 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 37 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 25
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.70 degrees
   Stern overhang: 16.50 ft / 5.03 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   14.40 %,  51.00 ft / 15.54 m,  47.00 ft / 14.33 m
      - Forward deck:   45.00 %,  41.00 ft / 12.50 m,  35.00 ft / 10.67 m
      - Aft deck:   30.00 %,  35.00 ft / 10.67 m,  38.00 ft / 11.58 m
      - Quarter deck:   10.60 %,  45.00 ft / 13.72 m,  48.00 ft / 14.63 m
      - Average freeboard:      39.98 ft / 12.19 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 44.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 249.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 60,431 Square feet or 5,614 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 178 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 126 lbs/sq ft or 615 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.40
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, rides out heavy weather easily


16600 tons for 3380 passengers
1755 tons cargo (below waterline)
1145 tons miscellaneous

Luxury Suites: 30 passengers (@ 24t, 2x 1st class)
1st Class: 640 passengers (@ 12t, 2x 2nd class)
2nd Class: 700 passengers (@ 6t, SS note minimum: 5.28t)
3rd Class: 2000 passengers (@ 2t, SS note minimum: 1.98t)

Cabins 1st class (on deck, 720+7680 tons)
Suites: 15 cabins
1-person: 99 cabins
2-person: 95 cabins
3-person: 117 cabins

Cabins 2nd class (on deck, 4200 tons)
1-person: 152 cabins
2-person: 18 cabins
3-person: 128 cabins

Cabins 3rd class (hull above waterline, 4000 tons)
1-person: 226 cabins
2-person: 464 cabins
4-person: 150 cabins
6-person: 25 cabins
8-person: 12 cabins

miscellaneous miscellaneous weights (above deck, 507 tons)
- 25 tons for long range wireless.
- 10 tons for short range wireless.
- 24 tons for 4 wooden cutters (capacity 40 people, 3 ton boats, 3 tons davits, etc)
- 432 for 54 lifeboats (capacity 65 people, 4 ton boats, 4 ton davits, etc)
- 16 tons for 8 collapsible lifeboats (capacity 47 people, 2 ton boats, no davits, etc.)

miscellaneous miscellaneous weights (on deck, 638 tons)
- 25 tons for Forward Grand Staircase.
- 15 tons for Aft Grand Staircase.
- 50 tons for smoking rooms.
- 40 tons for Gymnasiums.
- 20 tons for Turkish baths.
- 200 tons for swimming pool.
- 30 tons for library.
- 20 tons for Veranda Cafe
- 238 tons for dining rooms

[Kaiser Kirk]

A slightly more modern vessel than the Monitor, based off the British Topaze class...

NNS Topas, Norse Protected Cruiser laid down 1903

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.75" / 44 mm
   Forecastle: 0.75" / 19 mm  Quarter deck: 0.75" / 19 mm

So conceptually, that's a flat 44mm deck with no side armor to keep shells from going over or under it.
I'm guessing the Topaz had a protective deck, with 2"/50mm slopes and a .75"/20mm crown.
Which would likely weigh less as well.

[Walter]

Looking at the wikipedia pic of the PC cross section in MS Paint, you only require about 5% extra beam to cover the extra bit of armor for the protected deck that is needed because it slopes down like that. Another thing is that that image suggests that the center ~40% of the ship's beam is thinner (though that could vary slightly depending on a cruiser's beam).

Assuming for simplicity with my sim that the middle part is half the simmed thickness, that would mean that 40% of 40 feet is 16 feet. Half that means you get 16 feet of 0.875" thick while the remaining 16 feet I will fold in two to 8 feet and add back to the 60% bit. 60% of 40 feet is 24 feet. 16 + 8 + 24 = 48 feet. 48/40 = 1.2 meaning that if it were all horizontal, it would cover an extra 20% of beam while the image told me only 5% extra was needed.

Looking at those results, I really do not see why it is necessary to sim a 12ft high belt of 1" thickness and an additional bit of 2 feet of 1.75" thickness to sim that what the deck armor can also do if you use a bit of imagination.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Looking at the wikipedia pic of the PC cross section in MS Paint, you only require about 5% extra beam to cover the extra bit of armor for the protected deck that is needed because it slopes down like that. Another thing is that that image suggests that the center ~40% of the ship's beam is thinner (though that could vary slightly depending on a cruiser's beam).

Assuming for simplicity with my sim that the middle part is half the simmed thickness, that would mean that 40% of 40 feet is 16 feet. Half that means you get 16 feet of 0.875" thick while the remaining 16 feet I will fold in two to 8 feet and add back to the 60% bit. 60% of 40 feet is 24 feet. 16 + 8 + 24 = 48 feet. 48/40 = 1.2 meaning that if it were all horizontal, it would cover an extra 20% of beam while the image told me only 5% extra was needed.

Looking at those results, I really do not see why it is necessary to sim a 12ft high belt of 1" thickness and an additional bit of 2 feet of 1.75" thickness to sim that what the deck armor can also do if you use a bit of imagination.

Simplicity.
If it's right there in the sim, and we know what that piece of armor means, then all that is required is simple addition to find the thickness of the slope.

Further what I'm suggesting is what several of us talked about in N6 - sim the protected deck at whatever thickness, then add a short main belt to indicate the additional slope thickness.  In the prior conversation I believe 2.44m was settled on as that is 1 default deck height. For my sims, I'm using 3.66m.

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.56" / 65 mm   437.99 ft / 133.50 m   12.01 ft / 3.66 m
   - Protected deck- single deck: 0.98" / 25 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 0.00" / 0 mm

Very easily indicates a protected deck that is 25mm on the flat and (25+65) 90mm on the slopes.

Otherwise we'd have to sit down and replicate your math to find out what your decks actually are. The greater the beam of your vessel, the lower the % in slopes.
Now what you don't seem to be addressing is your beam is only the widest part, your vessel tapers, but the angle and distance of the downward slope of the deck should not greatly vary. Which means the proportion of flat middle should decline as you approach the ends of your vessel.

[Walter]

Simplicity.

To me it is a lot simpler to just enter the deck thickness and be done with it. The calculation I did above shows that it should properly cover it with half thickness on the center flat area.

Very easily indicates a protected deck that is 25mm on the flat and (25+65) 90mm on the slopes.

Well, the protected deck curves and no longer reaches the sides of your ship that way. I had tested it with a deck 0.75" thick with a 12 ft high 1" thick upper belt and to complete it all the way to the sides a 2 feet high (which I screwed up as it should have been 1 feet as 5% of 40 feet is 2 feet and I forgot to divide that by 2), 1.75" thick main belt as the curve requires an additional 5% of beam to be covered when it is assumed to be a flat surface. There was only a 0.01 difference (and probably no difference if I had used the correct main belt height of 1 feet) between doing all that complicated stuff and just simming the deck as 1.75" and assume that it is 0.75" in the center and 1.75" on the slopes. 0.01 is not enough to make it worth all the extra effort which could be much better spend on checking the sim to see if there are no errors in it when it comes to the number of guns per mount for example.

Otherwise we'd have to sit down and replicate your math to find out what your decks actually are.

Why? There is no need to if you assume that the center part of the ship is protected by half the simmed deck thickness and the slopes are the given thickness. Don't make it more difficult than necessary. Just keep it simple.

The greater the beam of your vessel, the lower the % in slopes.

The lower the % in slopes just means that there is going to me more 'leftover' armor from the higher % thinner center part that you 'remove' to be 'placed' on the sides so I don't think much will change. The same is probably true for narrower beams as well. Probably enough so for anything down to destroyer beams.

Now what you don't seem to be addressing is your beam is only the widest part, your vessel tapers, but the angle and distance of the downward slope of the deck should not greatly vary. Which means the proportion of flat middle should decline as you approach the ends of your vessel.

I feel that the extra 20% beam coverage should be enough to cover the ends where the flat area is much smaller. Probably in the same way that you assume that the extra bits of the belt that are not needed at the ends cover the gap between the ends of the protected deck and the sides that would exist because of the curvature of the protected deck.


If you want to keep simming the Protected Cruisers your way, I am not stopping you. To me it is too much hassle without any gains or losses to apply it. It would also make it look a lot like one of my light cruiser designs with that main belt at which point I am thinking "Is it not just better to use that sim as a light cruiser sim instead of a protected cruiser sim?"

[Kaiser Kirk]

Interesting stuff.
Not sure if I should take ending line as "I'm done with this" or not.

However, I do see that I didn't explain a bit very well.  So not to offend, but I'll take one more try at explaining.

1) The prior conversation decided on 2.44m as that seems to be a default deck height level.  You'll notice I'm using 3.66m on my ships as that is the slant distance at 45deg. While I am using 2.5m/deck when calculating things, a slightly steeper slant would make 3.66 work. Still not 100% accurate, but fairly close.

2) "The greater the beam of your vessel, the lower the % in slopes." is the part I mucked up. The correct version is the lower % in flat.

Take 3 sections, roughly forward, amidships and aft
     _ _ 
   /      \ 
  _ _ _ _
/            \ 
   _ _ _
  /        \

While the distance occupied by the sloped portion of the deck doesn't change, the flat area does.
As a result, when considering the overall vessel,  A greater % is taken by the sloped portions than a simple evaluation of the midships cross-section would show.

Anyhow, you are correct, how to model this is not part of the ruleset or gentlemen rules and so up to the individual player.

I will stick to my original observation that a protected deck is fitted at the waterline and curves under the waterline, while an armored deck is fitted above the waterline, and so the way your design was originally presented, there was a flat deck that shells could easily dive under.  That is a simple toggle fix, much like going from single to twin mount...except no comp hull issues.

[Walter]

"The greater the beam of your vessel, the lower the % in slopes." is the part I mucked up. The correct version is the lower % in flat.

Odd... to me you had it right and muck it up with the correction.

While the distance occupied by the sloped portion of the deck doesn't change, the flat area does.

... and this would confirm that the greater the beam of your vessel, the lower the % in slopes and not the flat. After all, the flat area becomes wider and wider the closer you get to the widest part of the ship and the wider it gets, the greater the percentage of the beam of the ship it becomes.

Not sure how it works on real world protected cruisers, but with the way you do it, slopes coverage does not change if you stick to ~12 feet so with a 60 ft wide Parthian Protected Cruiser, the percentage of beam that is part of the slopes is less than the percentage of beam that is part of the slopes of a Parthian Protected Cruiser with a beam of 40 feet.

I will stick to my original observation that a protected deck is fitted at the waterline and curves under the waterline, while an armored deck is fitted above the waterline, and so the way your design was originally presented, there was a flat deck that shells could easily dive under.

Yes, it should be protected deck. While it makes no difference, it just looks more correct to do so. *makes note to check the deck armor on all ship designs*

That is a simple toggle fix, much like going from single to twin mount...except no comp hull issues.

I deliberately mentioned the guns because I know from the experience of making the exact same same error that you suddenly need extra hull strength for those guns and you need to do a lot more tweaking of the design to get it correct again. :)

[Kaiser Kirk]

I deliberately mentioned the guns because I know from the experience of making the exact same same error that you suddenly need extra hull strength for those guns and you need to do a lot more tweaking of the design to get it correct again. :)

That is what really bemused me, when I corrected it, I went from 1.00 comp hull to 1.02... I was expecting like 0.96.

[Walter]

*checks SS*
Oh yes. I see that my issue was the same but reversed, where singles were simmed as twins rather than singles.

Having been thinking about it, while a few navies feel that some proper ventilation is needed due to the location of their navy's operational area, I need to tweak my designs a bit to incorporate heating systems on my vessels.

[Walter]

Okay. Did some tweaking here and there. I decided to use Norse mythology for the names of the battleships. Added climate control on the ships (1 ton per 100 tons light displacement) and on the larger ships torpedo nets (1 ton per meter of length (oa)).

Baldr, Norse Battleship laid down 1893


Displacement:
   12,316 t light; 13,066 t standard; 14,124 t normal; 14,970 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (395.00 ft / 390.00 ft) x 75.00 ft x (26.00 / 27.32 ft)
   (120.40 m / 118.87 m) x 22.86 m  x (7.92 / 8.33 m)

Armament:
      4 - 12.01" / 305 mm 35.0 cal guns - 811.72lbs / 368.19kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1893 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 6.10" / 155 mm 40.0 cal guns - 108.91lbs / 49.40kg shells, 300 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1893 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 40.0 cal guns - 12.35lbs / 5.60kg shells, 300 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1893 Model
     8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
     8 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
      Weight of broadside 4,751 lbs / 2,155 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   253.50 ft / 77.27 m   10.39 ft / 3.17 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   136.48 ft / 41.60 m   10.39 ft / 3.17 m
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   253.50 ft / 77.27 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      14.0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   3rd:   3.00" / 76 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      3.00" / 76 mm

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 3.25" / 83 mm
   Forecastle: 3.25" / 83 mm  Quarter deck: 3.25" / 83 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 14.00" / 356 mm, Aft 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 11,392 ihp / 8,498 Kw = 17.00 kts
   Range 5,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,904 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   647 - 842

Cost:
   £1.031 million / $4.126 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 651 tons, 4.6 %
      - Guns: 651 tons, 4.6 %
   Armour: 5,425 tons, 38.4 %
      - Belts: 2,629 tons, 18.6 %
      - Armament: 1,223 tons, 8.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,358 tons, 9.6 %
      - Conning Towers: 214 tons, 1.5 %
   Machinery: 2,149 tons, 15.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,781 tons, 26.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,807 tons, 12.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 310 tons, 2.2 %
      - Hull below water: 30 tons
      - Hull above water: 124 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 121 tons
      - Above deck: 35 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     19,082 lbs / 8,656 Kg = 22.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.30
   Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 13.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.77

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.650 / 0.656
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.20 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.75 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.00 ft / -0.91 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  17.00 ft / 5.18 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Forward deck:   50.00 %,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Aft deck:   15.00 %,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:      16.08 ft / 4.90 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 72.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 105.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 22,407 Square feet or 2,082 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 128 lbs/sq ft or 626 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.34
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

- 30 tons for 5 torpedo tubes and 15 torpedoes (hull below water)
- 124 tons for climate control (hull above water)
- 121 tons for torpedo nets (on freeboard deck)
- 10 tons for short range wireless (above deck)
- 25 tons for long range wireless (above deck)

[Walter]

Njordr, Norse Battleship laid down 1894


Displacement:
   12,147 t light; 12,743 t standard; 13,771 t normal; 14,592 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (420.00 ft / 412.00 ft) x 73.00 ft x (25.00 / 26.26 ft)
   (128.02 m / 125.58 m) x 22.25 m  x (7.62 / 8.00 m)

Armament:
      4 - 12.01" / 305 mm 35.0 cal guns - 811.72lbs / 368.19kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1894 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      10 - 6.10" / 155 mm 40.0 cal guns - 108.91lbs / 49.40kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1894 Model
     10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      20 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 40.0 cal guns - 3.04lbs / 1.38kg shells, 350 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1894 Model
     20 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 40.0 cal guns - 1.48lbs / 0.67kg shells, 450 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1894 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      6 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm 87.0 cal guns - 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1,000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1894 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 4,403 lbs / 1,997 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   18.0" / 457 mm   220.00 ft / 67.06 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   3.00" / 76 mm   192.00 ft / 58.52 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   220.00 ft / 67.06 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 82 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      12.0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm   2.00" / 51 mm            -
   3rd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.50" / 64 mm
   Forecastle: 2.50" / 64 mm  Quarter deck: 2.50" / 64 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 14.00" / 356 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 13,612 ihp / 10,155 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 5,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,849 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   635 - 826

Cost:
   £1.066 million / $4.266 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 605 tons, 4.4 %
      - Guns: 605 tons, 4.4 %
   Armour: 4,865 tons, 35.3 %
      - Belts: 2,581 tons, 18.7 %
      - Armament: 1,045 tons, 7.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,065 tons, 7.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 173 tons, 1.3 %
   Machinery: 2,544 tons, 18.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,827 tons, 27.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,623 tons, 11.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 306 tons, 2.2 %
      - Hull below water: 20 tons
      - Hull above water: 122 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 129 tons
      - Above deck: 35 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     16,837 lbs / 7,637 Kg = 19.4 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.29
   Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 13.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 95 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.44
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.66

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.641 / 0.647
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.64 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.30 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -5.00 ft / -1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 22,850 Square feet or 2,123 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 126 lbs/sq ft or 615 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.04
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

- 20 tons for 5 torpedo tubes and 10 torpedoes (hull below water)
- 122 tons for climate control (hull above water)
- 129 tons for torpedo nets (on freeboard deck)
- 10 tons for short range wireless (above deck)
- 25 tons for long range wireless (above deck)