Dutch Destroyers

[Korpen]

I don't see why you expect these ships to do anything to a cruiser of the same generation.  Older PC's sure but new construction?  I don't see it.  There too slow to close the range and while there firepower will be impressive to an unarmored target is useless to anything with any type of protection.  Odds are a cruiser will have something around a 6" gun and be faster than they are.  Leaving them tied to your battleline needing it to protect them.  All they can do is chew up unarmed sections which will cause pain I grant you but it won't kill anything with as Borys pointed more than a 2" belt.

Michael  

I do not expect these ships to du much against a cruiser, on their own that is.
But I do expect them to be able to stop a cruiser that is trying to force its way past them to attack the larger ships they protect with torpedoes. Yes, this is tying them to the battleline, and that is the intention.

[Korpen]

A lot of ships have been put away by torpedoes in this war and the previous Asian war.  I guess it comes down to if the nation believes the answer is more torpedoes to run with this advantage, or mount more guns to negate the torpedoe craft before they can launch torpedoes

There has been more manoeuvring warships sunk by surface torpedoes in this war then the total loss to them during the entire ww1. And this with torpedoes carrying about 1/2 (About 1/3 of a ww2 torpedo), of the warhead of a ww1 torpedo, and lacking a gyroscope, giving them worse accuracy (at least on paper) then torpedoes of the world wars...

[The Rock Doctor]

This last point from Korpen is very true:  with the amount of tonnage lost to surface torps in the past few months, the world's navies ought to be taking notice and taking steps to counteract them. 

Personally, I look forward to seeing how this operational model works out.

[miketr]

There has been more manoeuvring warships sunk by surface torpedoes in this war then the total loss to them during the entire ww1. And this with torpedoes carrying about 1/2 (About 1/3 of a ww2 torpedo), of the warhead of a ww1 torpedo, and lacking a gyroscope, giving them worse accuracy (at least on paper) then torpedoes of the world wars...

That I think has to do with the fact that in this war several times there have been fights where major torpedo attacks occured.  Considering that Jutland was basicly it in WW1 for a major surface torpedo attack s (1 each side) and they neither sides torpedo units got as close as we have scene especially that night attack.  Also the ships in question are 1/2 or 1/3 the size of WW1 warships.

Michael

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I took notice of the torpedo menace. My new 6 inchers are 45 calibres long, with 100 pound shells. For high training speed and ROF.
This is instead of a 50 or 55 calibre long weapon, 110/120 lb shell, with long range and pentrating power. I will leave that to 7,5 inch guns. The 6 incher is to be a GTB muncher.
Borys

[Korpen]

That I think has to do with the fact that in this war several times there have been fights where major torpedo attacks occured.  Considering that Jutland was basicly it in WW1 for a major surface torpedo attack s (1 each side) and they neither sides torpedo units got as close as we have scene especially that night attack.  Also the ships in question are 1/2 or 1/3 the size of WW1 warships.

Michael

That matters a bit, but just looking on the number of hits, we are about equal with ww1.And while Skagerrak was the only major fleet action, there were loads of surface fighting, not only in the famous north sea battles between England and Germany. Some of the most intense areas of operations were the black sea and the Baltic.

First, I am of the opinion that it is too easy to hit, but without knowing exactly with, if any modifications that is made to SoW, it is hard to tell.

But getting almost 50% hit rates at long range shoot against ships manoeuvring to evade, well, that would be good wire guided torpedoes. Unless my match if off in SoW, those shots had a hit % of around 10% against the AFs, and 15% against the battleships. It would seem that the Swiss got VERY luck, again.

Another thing that inflates casualties in most games is the lack of self preservation, pressing every ship to fight to the bitter end rather then try and break off when they are in a very exposed position.

[Korpen]

A more conservative design, that retain the torpedoes. Still have five 12cm guns however.
The 30 ton of misc weight is enough to fist a 10-ton radio, 4 torpedoes, two pair of paravanes and up to 14 mines.

Type-G, Netherlands Jager laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   750 t light; 791 t standard; 920 t normal; 1 023 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   291,34 ft / 269,03 ft x 28,38 ft x 10,17 ft (normal load)
   88,80 m / 82,00 m x 8,65 m  x 3,10 m

Armament:
      5 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52,91lbs / 24,00kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 0,59" / 15,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,10lbs / 0,05kg shells, 1908 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 265 lbs / 120 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,47" / 12 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 15 369 shp / 11 466 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 4 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 233 tons

Complement:
   83 - 108

Cost:
   £0,113 million / $0,453 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 33 tons, 3,6 %
   Armour: 6 tons, 0,7 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 6 tons, 0,7 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 424 tons, 46,1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 257 tons, 28,0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 170 tons, 18,5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 30 tons, 3,3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     256 lbs / 116 Kg = 4,9 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,37
   Metacentric height 1,3 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 10,4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,42
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,14

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,415
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,48 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16,40 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 45,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,03 ft / 5,80 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   17,72 ft / 5,40 m
      - Mid (29 %):      17,72 ft / 5,40 m (9,84 ft / 3,00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Stern:      9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,20 ft / 3,72 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 179,6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91,5 %
   Waterplane Area: 4 743 Square feet or 441 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 54 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 134 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 2,15
      - Overall: 0,57
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

EDIT: Fixed the trim so the became a steady platform.

[Carthaginian]

An extremely effective 'jack-of-all-trades' design, it seems.
Good range for a destroyer, heavy armament. I'd go with a 'distributed' arrangement as it seems to better fit the illustration, though. The return of 4 torpedoes gives it weapons that can threaten a BB/AC-sized ship, and the 5 120mm singles will at least make life miserable for a small cruiser. Add in the fact that she's just as fast and twice as cheap, and you get to send 2 ships out instead of one... which makes that small cruiser's life go from 'interesting' to 'miserable with possibility of sucking.'

[Desertfox]

Are you sure she is period appropriate? A little more speed and some bigger torpedoes and she would make a nice WWII! destroyer.

Where are you going to put the mines and paravanes?

[Korpen]

Are you sure she is period appropriate? A little more speed and some bigger torpedoes and she would make a nice WWII! destroyer.

Where are you going to put the mines and paravanes?

The mines goes as deck cargo, but on the scale I use, small details such as mine rails only look weird.
The rail goes along the sides of the ship, with the mines made fast below the D-gun platform.

The paravanes are strapped to the superstructure, or to the deck in front of the boats.

The ship is basically a smaller, shorter, slower V-class destroyer, and she fits the need.

[Korpen]

Hm, removing the capacity to carry mines and/or other funny equipment allowed the speed to be increased by one knot.
Also the sea keeping, while about equal in all, is worse at top speed.

Type-G, Netherlands Jager laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   750 t light; 789 t standard; 918 t normal; 1 021 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   301,18 ft / 278,87 ft x 27,89 ft x 9,68 ft (normal load)
   91,80 m / 85,00 m x 8,50 m  x 2,95 m

Armament:
      5 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52,91lbs / 24,00kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 0,59" / 15,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,10lbs / 0,05kg shells, 1908 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 265 lbs / 120 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 140
   4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 17 439 shp / 13 009 Kw = 29,00 kts
   Range 4 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 232 tons

Complement:
   83 - 108

Cost:
   £0,116 million / $0,464 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 33 tons, 3,6 %
   Armour: 5 tons, 0,6 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 5 tons, 0,6 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 443 tons, 48,3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 252 tons, 27,5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 168 tons, 18,3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 16 tons, 1,7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     233 lbs / 105 Kg = 4,4 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,37
   Metacentric height 1,3 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 10,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,43
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,427
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16,70 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 45,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,03 ft / 5,80 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   17,06 ft / 5,20 m
      - Mid (30 %):      17,06 ft / 5,20 m (9,19 ft / 2,80 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   9,19 ft / 2,80 m
      - Stern:      9,19 ft / 2,80 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,70 ft / 3,57 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 185,0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 90,3 %
   Waterplane Area: 4 872 Square feet or 453 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 49 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 131 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,74
      - Overall: 0,56
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform


Which version do you prefer?
The extra speed is nice, but the reduced payload limits what kind of operations the ship can conduct, as well as reducing the ability to incorporate new equipment.

Interesting enough, the weight difference between 5x10cm and 5x12cm guns are almost non-existent, the only change a switch to 1dm guns be an increase in the number of shells.

[Desertfox]

Second one definately. ;)

Hmm if the difference between guns is minimal, I might just have the Kidd class DDs end up with 5" guns...

[Ithekro]

Can I note that in terms of style this ship type should have more smaller funnels and more of a straight bow?

[P3D]

Even with SS3 the weight difference between 4" and 5" is minimal. The 5th gun, however, costs more.

However, on any but calm seas the ROF will be much different. For Netherlands, it is IMO acceptable. For countries like NS, DKB and Orange, bad weather capability should more important, therefore the mentioned countries should stay with fixed 4" ammo, not separate 5" one.

[maddox]

France is gently strolling away, with the everywere present 140mm quick fire guns....