Economics Discussion

[Walter]

I want to do this to enjoy myself with naval stuff. Adding this revolt crap just p*sses me off which I really don't need. When I play with my PS3 and something happens that just p*sses me off, I usually end up having to buy a new controller (and I have thanks to the Artificial Idiots driving around with the Gran Turismo games). With Navalism, it'll remove all interest I have for it and drive me away.

[snip]

I want to do this to enjoy myself with naval stuff. Adding this revolt crap just p*sses me off which I really don't need. When I play with my PS3 and something happens that just p*sses me off, I usually end up having to buy a new controller (and I have thanks to the Artificial Idiots driving around with the Gran Turismo games). With Navalism, it'll remove all interest I have for it and drive me away.

What if it were just applied to overseas territories?

[Logi]

As discussed the revolt risk will be removed. In it's place will be a rubric (details to be decided) of situations where a revolt might happen. The actual chance of occurrence will be determined ad-hoc through discusses between the mods and player.

[Logi]

This is the current proposal:

Pop --> $0.1 / Pop
IC ----> $2/$1/$0.5 / Pop with the breaks being IC < Pop, .... Pop <= IC < 2*Pop, .... 2*Pop <= IC
BP ----> 1,000t War Materials.
Research limited by region population with 2*IC/Pop. (Only $ produced there can be used for research)

Player usable Revenue is usually 50%. Like N3, but Admin can adjust up or down due to tax/tariff and other fluff. During wartime, Player can use above their % limit, but that is equiv. to nationalizing. Subject to admin-induced malus, something like -10% IC next half.

IC costs $10 base, without increase in capital cost.
BP costs $50 base. Every 10 BP in existence increases base cost of BP by $10 (stacking). Every 100 BP in existence increase base cost of BP by $50 (stacking).
Population growth increases in increments: 2%/1%/0.5% for IC < Pop, .... Pop <= IC < 2*Pop, .... 2*Pop <= IC. Increases by 0.5% if at peace.



Since there hasn't been much discussion here, I'm declaring a two-day warning (Monday 11:59am UTC) before I close this topic and set the economic ruleset change to closed. If there is any further objections to the above proposal, now would be the time to voice it.

[Walter]

If you have this already as accepted proposal...

Nations can research as many different technologies at the same time as they like. However the price per tech being researching doubles.
I.E. A nation researching 4 techs at the same time would have to pay $2+$4+$8+$16 or a total of $30

... then how does this fit in?

Research limited by region population with 2*IC/Pop. (Only $ produced there can be used for research)

Is it one? Is it the other? Is it both?

[Darman]

If you have this already as accepted proposal...

Nations can research as many different technologies at the same time as they like. However the price per tech being researching doubles.
I.E. A nation researching 4 techs at the same time would have to pay $2+$4+$8+$16 or a total of $30

... then how does this fit in?

Research limited by region population with 2*IC/Pop. (Only $ produced there can be used for research)

Is it one? Is it the other? Is it both?

I think the two are meant to be complimentary.  You can research as much as you'd like up to the cash limits imposed in the economics rules.  However, the wording on that could be changed to reflect the intentions (if that is indeed the intention).  Rather than "research as many different technologies at the same time as they like" use "research as many different technologies at the same time as they can afford"

[Logi]

Darman is correct. If there's no issue with them being complimentary, I'll go and change the wording.

The intent is that a nation with a large amount of farmer is going to be as wealthy as a similar nation with a concentration of wealthy folk. However the latter will obviously be able to conduct research on a larger scale than the former.

[Logi]

Removed all lingering references to Civil Goods and the bonus for fixed production in the proposal.

[Walter]

Yes, you need to change the wording. The one bit I quoted suggests no limit except for budget and the other is limited by that formula.

... but when I enter the IC values and pop values I found in another thread in that formula, I get only values ranging from $0.13 to $0.81... ??? I'm definitely missing something and doing things completely wrong but what exactly?

IC ----> $2/$1/$0.5 / Pop with the breaks being IC < Pop, .... Pop <= IC < 2*Pop, .... 2*Pop <= IC

Population growth increases in increments: 2%/1%/0.5% for IC < Pop, .... Pop <= IC < 2*Pop, .... 2*Pop <= IC. Increases by 0.5% if at peace.

Just to be sure I am reading these two bits correctly...

When the IC is less than the Polulation, the IC produces $2.
When the population is less than or equal to the IC, but the IC is less than 2x the population, the IC produces $1.
When 2x the population is less than the or equal to IC, the IC produces $0.5.

When the IC is less than the Polulation, the population grows by 2% (+0.5% if at peace).
When the population is less than or equal to the IC, but the IC is less than 2x the population, tthe population grows by 1% (+0.5% if at peace).
When 2x the population is less than or equal to the IC, the population grows by 0.5% (+0.5% if at peace).

BTW, it is not indicated. Is the population growth per half year, per year or something else? (with N3, we got population growth percentages from the mods every 2 sim years)

[Logi]

I'll do a breakdown for you.

Suppose a nation with 100 Pop and 250 IC.

Subject:	Calculations:	Revenue
Population:	100 Pop * $0.1 / Pop	$  10
IC<Pop:	100 IC * $2 / IC	$200
Pop<IC<2*Pop:	100 IC * $1 / IC	$100
IC>2*Pop:	50 IC * $0.5	$  25
Total:		$335

For the population, it is exactly as you said. Population growth is per year, I'll have to edit that in.

[Walter]

Okay. Got it.
If we were to take that nation for the techs, you get 2*250/100 = $5 for the techs...

But if you use the populations and ICs you gave here...
http://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,6423.msg83540.html#msg83540
... it is not going to work. The maxiumum would be the US with $0.81 (2*31/76.5)

[Logi]

What do you mean? If we are talking about the tech budget limit, that's based on the region, not nation-wide.

For example:
The US has 76 Pop and 31 IC.

But we can split that into:
65 Pop, 11 IC (Great Plains + West Coast)
10 Pop, 20 IC (East Coast)

Then we have ($1 + $20 + $10) = $31 to spend on research, based on the East Coast region. This gives a reason to have non-equal distribution of IC in a nation as opposed to the original ruleset which promotes equal spread since there's no benefit to non-equal spread.

[snip]

What do you mean? If we are talking about the tech budget limit, that's based on the region, not nation-wide.

For example:
The US has 76 Pop and 31 IC.

But we can split that into:
65 Pop, 11 IC (Great Plains + West Coast)
10 Pop, 20 IC (East Coast)

Then we have ($1 + $20 + $10) = $31 to spend on research, based on the East Coast region. This gives a reason to have non-equal distribution of IC in a nation as opposed to the original ruleset which promotes equal spread since there's no benefit to non-equal spread.

*debits regions*

[Logi]

I should note however, that splitting the regions that in fashion also has drawbacks:

For example, an evenly spread USA would have a revenue of $69.6.
Split as I mentioned, however, and the revenue is instead $59.5, a lost of $10.1 or 14.5%.
This is not insignificant and also gives an incentive for players to divide their regions.

Dividing regions also makes it easier for mods to figure out what a player gains/losts from wars.

[snip]

I should note however, that splitting the regions that in fashion also has drawbacks:

For example, an evenly spread USA would have a revenue of $69.6.
Split as I mentioned, however, and the revenue is instead $59.5, a lost of $10.1 or 14.5%.
This is not insignificant and also gives an incentive for players to divide their regions.

Dividing regions also makes it easier for mods to figure out what a player gains/losts from wars.

I think we should make it that each nation has to have at least 4 regions, just to be fair.