New French Battleships

[maddox]

In theory, with some handing out of a lot of $, France can have this build.

The same ship as the powder room.  But no casemates, the 105mm's are seen as TB deterent, nothing else. The weight of Broadside lowers a but by lack of 140mm guns. But the more sensible lay out and decreased " golden twinkie opportunity" cancels that out.
I'm trying to avoid Hindsight and "logic" but still retain a plausible vessel.

Ciel Bleu

French Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   27.848 t light; 29.131 t standard; 31.840 t normal; 34.007 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   590,55 ft / 590,55 ft x 109,91 ft x 27,56 ft (normal load)
   180,00 m / 180,00 m x 33,50 m  x 8,40 m

Armament:
      8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1902 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      8 - 7,68" / 195 mm guns (4x2 guns), 226,24lbs / 102,62kg shells, 1899 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      20 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1901 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      6 - 1,00" / 25,4 mm guns in single mounts, 0,50lbs / 0,23kg shells, 1906 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12.604 lbs / 5.717 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,8" / 351 mm   400,00 ft / 121,92 m   15,00 ft / 4,57 m
   Ends:   9,20" / 234 mm   190,54 ft / 58,08 m   11,00 ft / 3,35 m
   Upper:   9,20" / 234 mm   383,00 ft / 116,74 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 104% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,45" / 37 mm   590,00 ft / 179,83 m   32,00 ft / 9,75 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,8" / 351 mm   9,20" / 234 mm      11,5" / 292 mm
   2nd:   9,20" / 234 mm   9,20" / 234 mm      9,20" / 234 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,50" / 38 mm            -
   4th:   1,15" / 29 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3,45" / 88 mm, Conning tower: 13,80" / 351 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 31.204 shp / 23.278 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 7.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.876 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   1.191 - 1.549

Cost:
   £2,413 million / $9,651 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.452 tons, 4,6%
   Armour: 13.312 tons, 41,8%
      - Belts: 5.640 tons, 17,7%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1.013 tons, 3,2%
      - Armament: 3.265 tons, 10,3%
      - Armour Deck: 3.095 tons, 9,7%
      - Conning Tower: 299 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 1.560 tons, 4,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11.324 tons, 35,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.992 tons, 12,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0,6%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     60.185 lbs / 27.299 Kg = 50,2 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 13,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,18
   Metacentric height 7,8 ft / 2,4 m
   Roll period: 16,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,37
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,44

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,623
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,37 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,30 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28,87 ft / 8,80 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      16,99 ft / 5,18 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,99 ft / 5,18 m
      - Stern:      16,99 ft / 5,18 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,56 ft / 5,96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 63,1%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142,5%
   Waterplane Area: 48.499 Square feet or 4.506 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 182 lbs/sq ft or 887 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,52
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[maddox]

With plans from other countries in the world to build 28000 tons BB's. France has to look into increasing it's Battle Ship budget.

The talks between Minister of Defence Dupuytren and Premier Paixhans did come out that the first of the new BB's together with 2 large fast cruisers will layed down early july 1906. The only problem is deciding what design gets preference.  Even ordering ships at the UK is considered.

French 1906 BB. Enlarged and of a less slender build than the previous ships (you'll see that the block coefficient with the previous ships is like a cruiser , not a ponderous BB)

Chanson , France Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   28.191 t light; 30.192 t standard; 33.352 t normal; 35.880 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   610,24 ft / 603,67 ft x 108,27 ft x 28,22 ft (normal load)
   186,00 m / 184,00 m x 33,00 m  x 8,60 m

Armament:
      8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1902 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 7,68" / 195 mm guns in single mounts, 226,24lbs / 102,62kg shells, 1902 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      14 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1900 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 10 raised mounts
      18 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns (10 mounts), 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1901 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 10 raised mounts
      4 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm guns in single mounts, 5,65lbs / 2,56kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 15.252 lbs / 6.918 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,8" / 376 mm   392,39 ft / 119,60 m   11,52 ft / 3,51 m
   Ends:   9,00" / 229 mm   211,25 ft / 64,39 m   11,52 ft / 3,51 m
   Upper:   9,00" / 229 mm   392,39 ft / 119,60 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   550,00 ft / 167,64 m   30,00 ft / 9,14 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,8" / 376 mm   12,0" / 305 mm      13,0" / 330 mm
   2nd:   10,0" / 254 mm   4,00" / 102 mm      4,00" / 102 mm
   3rd:   8,00" / 203 mm   4,00" / 102 mm      4,00" / 102 mm
   4th:   2,00" / 51 mm   2,00" / 51 mm      2,00" / 51 mm

   - Armour deck: 4,00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 15,00" / 381 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 31.846 shp / 23.757 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 8.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.688 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   1.233 - 1.604

Cost:
   £2,694 million / $10,777 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.767 tons, 5,3%
   Armour: 13.545 tons, 40,6%
      - Belts: 5.050 tons, 15,1%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 916 tons, 2,7%
      - Armament: 3.597 tons, 10,8%
      - Armour Deck: 3.648 tons, 10,9%
      - Conning Tower: 335 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 1.592 tons, 4,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11.136 tons, 33,4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.160 tons, 15,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     57.173 lbs / 25.933 Kg = 47,7 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 11,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,27
   Metacentric height 8,7 ft / 2,7 m
   Roll period: 15,4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,35
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,47

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,633
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,58 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,57 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29,53 ft / 9,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,29 ft / 5,27 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   17,29 ft / 5,27 m
      - Stern:      17,29 ft / 5,27 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,36 ft / 5,90 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71,4%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138,7%
   Waterplane Area: 49.291 Square feet or 4.579 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 174 lbs/sq ft or 852 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,42
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

The return to all casemated secundary guns is given in by the fear of vurnable secundairy magazines. And a bit of trying to cut down the cost.
The long range was demanded by Monsieur Le Carburme in parliament, who started a good campagne with as reasoning that French WarShips will not buy foreign coal anymore if it can be avoided.

[Borys]

High quality steaming coal is probably imported anyway ....

[Desertfox]

So we are back to 'my ship is bigger than yours' race? NS will watch from the sidelines. I can build 90 of those muti purpose ships for one of these monsters. And I can gladly exchange 9 of them for one of these monsters anytime.

[maddox]

French politicians do see their achivements different from the New Swiss.

[The Rock Doctor]

It is interesting to watch the ships get larger - in some cases, double the size of the last vessel built by a given nation.  There might be something to be said for caution and a more gradual growth of ship sizes.

[maddox]

For France this isn't a doubling. But that isn't the main issue.

After a build stop of about 6 years, and seeing the ships over the world going bigger there isn't much choise than to trumph them all.
If Premier Paixhans and minister Dupuytren get their idea's trough, the ships will grow in size rather fast, with the next class up to 33000 tons. Light.

[miketr]

I echo the wonder at nations doing 10,000 ton jumps in design displacement in one shot.  Its 1906 and a 28,000 ton ship looks a little out of the range in my opinion.  This would send us down the path to Tillman Battleships type ships.

Michael

[maddox]

You could call it overreacting. But France did not build any major warship in the last 6 years, only the Debacle Greater Napoleon and the successor Napoleon the Great. And that one was a half build hulk for the better part of 2 years. Just now it's getting finished (need to find a purpose for the ordered, but not used VTE's for this ship)
In the mean while, all over the world ships of 22000 tons and bigger appear. France, always been in love with Bigger is Better doesn't have much of an option to build larger. But is also in dire need of more hulls in the water.  The premisse was for this class of BB that the 4 Formidables would go off the list of active ships. 

OOC, these vessels, even individualy seeming all powerfull, are diminishing the French fleet.

It will take at least 10 quarters to build this monster, 2.5 years, and more like 4 years, knowing the French.

[P3D]

Battleships are starting to approach the size of passenger liners laid down 5 years ago. So what? Shipyards has the experience to build large ships, and has the experience to build somewhat smaller battleships. Then come the question of quality vs. quantity.

[Walter]

*Puts on helmet and hides in foxhole*
I'd call it the player's urge to build really big ships... especially since he can afford it. :)

Seriously, below you'll see the various tonnage marks being crossed by various nations historically. Looking at that list, I would say that a warship with a normal dispacement exceeding 30,000 tons is out of place at the moment... but that is my opinion.
Note that most of the displacements are taken from Jane's WW1 book and those displacements are normal displacement. The 'more modern' ships were taken from the Warships1 archive. Also these ships are those that were built and actually completed.
I have no idea about the Russian warships though. I just quickly looked around. Maybe Olekit would know better.

I could be wrong about the various ships so feel free to correct me.

UK
20,000+ => Colossus (1909-1911)
25,000+ => Lion (1909-1912)
30,000+ => Nelson (1922-1927)

German
20,000+ => Thueringen (1908-1911)
25,000+ => Derfflinger (1912-1914)
30,000+ => Gneisenau (1935-1938)

USA
20,000+ => Utah (1909-1911)
25,000+ => Arkansas (1910-1912)
30,000+ => Pennsylvania (1913-1916)

Japan
20,000+ => Settsu (1909-1912)
25,000+ => Kongo (1911-1913)
30,000+ => Fuso (1912-1915)

France
20,000+ => Jean Bart (1910-1913)
25,000+ => Dunkerque (1932-1937)
30,000+ => Richelieu (1935-1940)

Italian
20,000+ => Dante Alighieri (1909-1912)
25,000+ => Vittorio Veneto (1934-1940)
30,000+ => Vittorio Veneto (1934-1940)

Russian
20,000+ => Gangut (1909-1914)
25,000+ => No idea, probably Kiev (1970-1975)
30,000+ => No idea, probably Kiev (1970-1975)

[maddox]

Ok Walter, I'll start building a balanced, very usefull and aggresive French Fleet, led by competent admirals; not moneygrabbing politicians.

[Carthaginian]

Ok Walter, I'll start building a balanced, very usefull and aggresive French Fleet, led by competent admirals; not moneygrabbing politicians.

Shhhhhh!

Don't listen to him.! Keep building those white ele... er, monuments to the greatness of France!


Walter,

Maddox is building ships for flavor rather than perfection in capabilities. I've got a couple of those kinds of ships planned myself. one is an excellent cruiser that's not really able to cruise because she isn't the most seaworthy ship out there. I already built a ship that's nothing but a floating radio station thats largely useless except for RP fodder. In fact, it's upkeep was only $0.00525... didn't impact my budget at all.

These might not be the best kinds of ships to build, but they are the kind that real countries would build.

[The Rock Doctor]

Geez, Walter, now look what ya done.

[Walter]

I did say that that is my opinion. If you want to build that monstrosity glorious 30,000 ton ship, then go ahead. :)