New French Battleships

[TexanCowboy]

He has his monster's for 9 BP less, and 1 more gun.

[maddox]

Speed costs, I aimed for 3 kts faster as that is the lowest difference that could mean a thing in a running battle.

[Logi]

I don't know... It seems to be not worth it. The speed you gained at the cost of firepower and size makes my view of the ship terribly similar to TC's.

[maddox]

This better?

Seine, French  GBB laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   50.000 t light; 53.628 t standard; 58.699 t normal; 62.756 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   885,83 ft / 879,27 ft x 131,23 ft x 31,82 ft (normal load)
   270,00 m / 268,00 m x 40,00 m  x 9,70 m

Armament:
      12 - 16,14" / 410 mm guns (4x3 guns), 2.755,78lbs / 1.250,00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      20 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 83,72lbs / 37,97kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 34.753 lbs / 15.764 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 126

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   422,05 ft / 128,64 m   21,00 ft / 6,40 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 74% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,00" / 51 mm   422,05 ft / 128,64 m   29,00 ft / 8,84 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 4,00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 15,00" / 381 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 57.555 shp / 42.936 Kw = 22,00 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 9.128 tons

Complement:
   1.885 - 2.451

Cost:
   £11,527 million / $46,107 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3.365 tons, 5,7%
   Armour: 17.911 tons, 30,5%
      - Belts: 5.790 tons, 9,9%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 906 tons, 1,5%
      - Armament: 4.715 tons, 8,0%
      - Armour Deck: 6.012 tons, 10,2%
      - Conning Tower: 488 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 2.144 tons, 3,7%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 26.154 tons, 44,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 8.699 tons, 14,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 425 tons, 0,7%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     97.952 lbs / 44.430 Kg = 46,6 x 16,1 " / 410 mm shells or 17,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
   Metacentric height 9,2 ft / 2,8 m
   Roll period: 18,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,64
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,559
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,70 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 29,65 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 33 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31,50 ft / 9,60 m
      - Forecastle (26%):   21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Mid (50%):      21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Quarterdeck (26%):   21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Stern:      20,01 ft / 6,10 m
      - Average freeboard:   22,21 ft / 6,77 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175,1%
   Waterplane Area: 81.247 Square feet or 7.548 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 252 lbs/sq ft or 1.231 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,15
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 tons FC
25 tons ERADe equipment
25 tons Long range Marconi
50 tons flag facilities.
75 tons crew comfort

Belt sloped 12°=  Belt height is 20.54 feet/6.26 meter

[TexanCowboy]

Yes. Another in the line of the GBB's. I think this ship is more effective, although I wonder if a little less range would make just a little more speed. 24 knots?

[Guinness]

If France can't counter those monsters, that BP is well spend.  Imagine one of those entering Brest with impunity...

A few heavy caliber coastal guns and a command detonated minefield can handle that. It would be insane for anything this big to get anywhere near the enemy's coast under most circumstances.

No, the whole point of building such monsters is to make the enemy decide between hiding his major units in port or risk having them sunk in a Mahanian ultimate battle.

All that written, I think escalating the super-battleship building race is the wrong strategy for the ESC. The French can always match at a minimum, or continue the escalation. Few if any other powers can compete in the long run. The end result: the French simply have more and better ships than everyone else, but everyone else have spent all their BP for years and years in the process.

Since no one is interested in an arms limitation treat, I suppose this is inevitable. What will be interesting to see is what powers other than France might do. Will GC, Rohan, the UNK, Orange, Russia, or the CSA try to match these ships qualitatively on their own? Will they have any influence on the development of the ship designs of the Pacific powers?

[Desertfox]

50,000 tons buys me 33 Kidd class Super Destroyers, or 100 E-class submarines. Most definately a better way to spend money.

[TexanCowboy]

You know, DF....50 Kidd destroyer's would die againist this and a few escorts, (2 Demarce IV's, 5 Tigre B's)

[Desertfox]

The 5 Tigres would not cause the DD Captains to even blink, oh and 2 Demarces? Thank You! I needed more targets for the 450 Long Lances...

[ctwaterman]

*hmmmm*

How to phrase this.....

450 Long lances on 50 ships means any single HE round hitting any one of these ships is extremely likely to lead to an Oxygen fueled Fire on the deck followed shortly by sympathetic detonation of the 24" Warheads.   

Historically this goes back to the fact that over the course of the war more Japanese Ships were sunk because of the Long Lance Type 93 Torpedo then the number of Allied Ships sunk because of it.

All that being said 50 Destroyers is an awful lot of destroyers to handle but If I were the Destroyer Captains I would still want it at night in confined waters.  And not in the bright sun of a clear ocean with no land within 50 miles.

This goes back to the old arguement of a swarm fleet against a small number of much larger ships and can the swarm fleet be defeated in detail ????   ;)

[maddox]

I have the 12 Demarce IIIb's especialy against those swarms. 12 fire control directed quick firing 140mm guns per ship, ERADe and night fighting capacity. Come and get it.

And that's not counting the potential Eclaire class cruisers, faster than any DD, heavier broadside than an AC.

With such a threat, shouldn't France start making shells with smaller bomblets on a timer?  A French 380mm shell can carry -in weight- 19 of the 140mm shells.

[maddox]

It seems some more secundaries are needed. And the armor protection cannot be diminished.  So I end up with a ship that is a tad larger.

Seine, French  GBB laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   54.000 t light; 57.687 t standard; 63.020 t normal; 67.286 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   889,11 ft / 882,55 ft x 124,67 ft (Bulges 144,36 ft) x 31,50 ft (normal load)
   271,00 m / 269,00 m x 38,00 m (Bulges 44,00 m)  x 9,60 m

Armament:
      12 - 16,14" / 410 mm guns (4x3 guns), 2.755,78lbs / 1.250,00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      24 - 5,00" / 127 mm guns (12x2 guns), 55,12lbs / 25,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 34.401 lbs / 15.604 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 126

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   15,0" / 381 mm   441,27 ft / 134,50 m   22,00 ft / 6,71 m
   Ends:   2,00" / 51 mm   441,25 ft / 134,49 m   13,00 ft / 3,96 m
     Main Belt covers 77% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      2,00" / 51 mm   441,27 ft / 134,50 m   28,00 ft / 8,53 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15,0" / 381 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      15,0" / 381 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 4,00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 16,00" / 406 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 89.522 shp / 66.784 Kw = 24,50 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 9.599 tons

Complement:
   1.988 - 2.585

Cost:
   £12,208 million / $48,833 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3.343 tons, 5,3%
   Armour: 19.390 tons, 30,8%
      - Belts: 7.086 tons, 11,2%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 914 tons, 1,5%
      - Armament: 5.162 tons, 8,2%
      - Armour Deck: 5.681 tons, 9,0%
      - Conning Tower: 546 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 3.335 tons, 5,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 27.482 tons, 43,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 9.020 tons, 14,3%
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 0,7%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     102.181 lbs / 46.348 Kg = 48,6 x 16,1 " / 410 mm shells or 19,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,19
   Metacentric height 9,6 ft / 2,9 m
   Roll period: 19,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,46
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,11 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 29,71 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 39 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31,82 ft / 9,70 m
      - Forecastle (25%):   22,64 ft / 6,90 m
      - Mid (50%):      22,64 ft / 6,90 m
      - Quarterdeck (25%):   22,31 ft / 6,80 m
      - Stern:      22,31 ft / 6,80 m
      - Average freeboard:   23,43 ft / 7,14 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 165,9%
   Waterplane Area: 76.765 Square feet or 7.132 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 261 lbs/sq ft or 1.277 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,13
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 tons FC
25 tons ERADe equipment
25 tons Long range Marconi
50 tons flag facilities.
100 tons crew comfort


Belt sloped 12°=  Belt height is 20.54 feet/6.26 meter

[Carthaginian]

With such a threat, shouldn't France start making shells with smaller bomblets on a timer?  A French 380mm shell can carry -in weight- 19 of the 140mm shells.

OUCH... not the main gun flak round, Maddox.
Down such a path lies madness... ;)

[maddox]

I'm even more crazy.  But that will be seen...  Gold shells will be cheap compared to the idea I have now.

[Guinness]

I'm not so sure how feasible this is. In weight it could carry 19 140mm shells, but in volume may less, especially if you don't want to stack those shells on top of each other.

Also, I'd expect very poor accuracy and range. When fired, the overall round will be imparted with spin by the rifling, but the shells within it upon release would be likely to tumble, I expect.

Possibly at very short ranges, you could expect higher likelihood of hitting something, but those ranges would be well within expected torpedo range. Also, that close, training the big guns sufficiently quickly to hit what you were aiming for, even when firing the metal cloud, would be difficult.

The main battery AA rounds on the Yamatos were barrage antiaircraft weapons, meant to project a cloud of metal fragments at sufficient altitude and distance to deter torpedo bomber attack. Something similar might be useful against destroyers for sweeping the crew from the decks, but again I think you'd have the problem that such a weapon would only be useful inside the expected effective range of the enemy's surface-fired torpedoes.