New French Battleships

[Borys]

Nice ship, I'd like 2 knots more though.
Borys

[P3D]

DeVits does not offer much extra for having 10000t weight over the Marats.

[maddox]

You're right P3D, the only thing DeVits has is more stamina.

Luckely the Marat B's are layed down, and not the DeVits. The DeVits would be layed down after DeCreme.

I'll restart on the GBB successor of DeCreme.

[maddox]

Champagne/Bearn, French Battleship laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   24.142 t light; 25.633 t standard; 28.669 t normal; 31.097 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   629,92 ft / 623,36 ft x 88,58 ft (Bulges 101,71 ft) x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   192,00 m / 190,00 m x 27,00 m (Bulges 31,00 m)  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      6 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline forward, all raised guns - superfiring
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10 mounts), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1915 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 15.988 lbs / 7.252 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   374,02 ft / 114,00 m   11,50 ft / 3,51 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 92% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      2,00" / 51 mm   374,02 ft / 114,00 m   24,71 ft / 7,53 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   14,0" / 356 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 40.562 shp / 30.260 Kw = 22,00 kts
   Range 7.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.464 tons

Complement:
   1.101 - 1.432

Cost:
   £3,815 million / $15,260 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.847 tons, 6,4%
   Armour: 7.943 tons, 27,7%
      - Belts: 2.274 tons, 7,9%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 684 tons, 2,4%
      - Armament: 2.495 tons, 8,7%
      - Armour Deck: 2.248 tons, 7,8%
      - Conning Tower: 242 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 1.617 tons, 5,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12.236 tons, 42,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.526 tons, 15,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1,7%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     37.922 lbs / 17.201 Kg = 22,7 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 6,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,13
   Metacentric height 5,3 ft / 1,6 m
   Roll period: 18,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,63
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,32

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,603
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,13 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,97 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28,05 ft / 8,55 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   17,85 ft / 5,44 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,85 ft / 5,44 m
      - Quarterdeck (20%):   17,85 ft / 5,44 m
      - Stern:      17,85 ft / 5,44 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,66 ft / 5,69 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125,1%
   Waterplane Area: 40.499 Square feet or 3.763 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 211 lbs/sq ft or 1.031 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,42
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 tons FC
100 tons advanced  radio-aural R-ears
100 tons crew comfort
50 tons admirals comfort.

[P3D]

Heretic! Superfiring turret  :o on French battleships! Present yourself at the nearest Habsburg Consulate for re-indoctrination.

I have my reservations on the features of this ship. Does she really has a bulge or it is just the good old ugly tumblehome?

[Tanthalas]

Heretic! Superfiring turret  :o on French battleships! Present yourself at the nearest Habsburg Consulate for re-indoctrination.

Dear god no he will be worshiping the blood god by the time we get him out of there...

[maddox]

The good old ugly tumblehome shape, but internaly its an armored hull  - slab sided, not angled-  with an external decapping void and an internal torpedo bulkhead.

And the SF turret isn't a new feature... the Demarce Cruisers are already floating and being a nuicance.
Or should I say, there is a new wind blowing trough the admiralty- or is it passed already. Flatulence can have fans.


But what are the reservations?   She ain't as big as the DeCreme or Superbe not to mention the  idiotic Masque. Nor does she has any tech features France doesn't posses for enough time.

[P3D]

I would not want to bring decapping in Nverse. Ahistorical, and one can design ships with invulnerable main belts using it. Anyhow, it would require additional armor thickness in the order of 1" and more.

Maddox, have you tried sketching a cross-section of the ship with the armor belt? I cannot make any sense of it. Belt is narrow, thin, short, and would leave something exposed - either under or above the waterlone. As I mentioned in PM, the ship can easily be mission-killed without any belt penetration - but even that won't be difficult to achieve. Also, dangerously vulnerable to secondaries.

[maddox]

As if a normal ship hull thickness bulge would  decap a good apc shell.

About the narrowness of the belt. It's what Springsharp allocates for it. So it should do for France. I don't know for Rockies  naval war system, but for what I use, it's a lucky hit to hit the armor belt.

The shorness of the belt ain't a problem, it's a result of the rather slow speed  and 3 turret design of the ship, so less space for magazines and engines.

And mission kill is always a risk.

[maddox]

But for good order and messurment, a bit of tweaking.

Only 3Ktons heavier.

Champagne/Bearn, French Battleship laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   27.002 t light; 28.555 t standard; 31.803 t normal; 34.402 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   656,17 ft / 649,61 ft x 108,27 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   200,00 m / 198,00 m x 33,00 m  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      6 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline forward, all raised guns - superfiring
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10 mounts), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1915 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 15.988 lbs / 7.252 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   376,77 ft / 114,84 m   15,00 ft / 4,57 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 89% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,00" / 51 mm   376,77 ft / 114,84 m   24,78 ft / 7,55 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   14,0" / 356 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 43.033 shp / 32.102 Kw = 22,00 kts
   Range 7.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.847 tons

Complement:
   1.189 - 1.547

Cost:
   £3,981 million / $15,923 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.847 tons, 5,8%
   Armour: 9.384 tons, 29,5%
      - Belts: 3.077 tons, 9,7%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 691 tons, 2,2%
      - Armament: 2.495 tons, 7,8%
      - Armour Deck: 2.863 tons, 9,0%
      - Conning Tower: 260 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 1.716 tons, 5,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 13.555 tons, 42,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.802 tons, 15,1%
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1,6%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     49.584 lbs / 22.491 Kg = 29,6 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 9,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,19
   Metacentric height 7,8 ft / 2,4 m
   Roll period: 16,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,47
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,30

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,603
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25,49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28,05 ft / 8,55 m
      - Forecastle (22%):   17,85 ft / 5,44 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,85 ft / 5,44 m
      - Quarterdeck (20%):   17,85 ft / 5,44 m
      - Stern:      17,85 ft / 5,44 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,75 ft / 5,71 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147,5%
   Waterplane Area: 51.584 Square feet or 4.792 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 206 lbs/sq ft or 1.006 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,39
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 tons FC
100 tons advanced  radio-aural R-ears
100 tons crew comfort
50 tons admirals comfort.

[maddox]

Occitanie, French GBB laid down 191X (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   35.010 t light; 37.418 t standard; 40.602 t normal; 43.149 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721,80 ft / 715,22 ft x 108,27 ft x 30,18 ft (normal load)
   220,00 m / 218,00 m x 33,00 m  x 9,20 m

Armament:
      12 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      20 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 23.589 lbs / 10.700 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   410,00 ft / 124,97 m   22,00 ft / 6,71 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 88% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,00" / 51 mm   407,68 ft / 124,26 m   28,55 ft / 8,70 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   1,00" / 25 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3,50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 13,00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48.001 shp / 35.809 Kw = 22,00 kts
   Range 7.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.731 tons

Complement:
   1.429 - 1.859

Cost:
   £4,168 million / $16,672 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2.726 tons, 6,7%
   Armour: 13.771 tons, 33,9%
      - Belts: 5.265 tons, 13,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 861 tons, 2,1%
      - Armament: 3.618 tons, 8,9%
      - Armour Deck: 3.695 tons, 9,1%
      - Conning Tower: 331 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 2.182 tons, 5,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.732 tons, 38,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.592 tons, 13,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 1,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     50.243 lbs / 22.790 Kg = 30,0 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 8,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,08
   Metacentric height 6,5 ft / 2,0 m
   Roll period: 17,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,67
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,608
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,61 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,74 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 8,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2,43 ft / 0,74 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29,53 ft / 9,00 m
      - Forecastle (25%):   17,06 ft / 5,20 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,06 ft / 5,20 m
      - Quarterdeck (18%):   17,06 ft / 5,20 m
      - Stern:      17,06 ft / 5,20 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,31 ft / 5,58 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129,8%
   Waterplane Area: 57.060 Square feet or 5.301 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 211 lbs/sq ft or 1.030 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,17
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily



Misc weigth
250 tons FC
100 tons Enhanced Radio-Aural Ears
100 tons Admirals quarters
100 tons crew comfort
50 tons to be assigned

[Guinness]

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   410,00 ft / 124,97 m   22,00 ft / 6,71 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 88% of normal length

Part of the AoN concept in the US Navy was that of a minimal flotational volume which would be armored, so that waterline hits outside the citadel wouldn't eventually result in flooding that could sink the ship. This is what SS is reflecting with it's armor coverage percentage.

So I think you'll want to armor at least 100% of the normal length, or put end belts back in. Since your belt probably extends from the vicinity of your first and last main battery turrets, this will also have the effect of spreading those out a bit, which would also give you more usable space amidships for machinery, magazines, and wine stores. You know, the important stuff. ;)

[Borys]

The USN fixed the citadel lenght at 2/3rds lenght. With the Pacific in mind.
Other fleets had other ideas - due to usually being closer to a base, the RN went for citadels closer to 1/2 of lenght.

Borys

[Guinness]

Hm. I knew that the Nelrods and G3 and N3 had shorter citadels, but what I don't know is how long was the belt on the KGV's?

[maddox]

If you look better you'll see that the turrets and magazines are inside the shorter belt. The lower speed of the French ships allow for a smaller engine and boiler room, and by extending the quarterdeck and forecasle I could pull all the vurnable parts behind the short, but high belt.

Forecastle 25% and quarterdeck 18%  - compared to 20 and 15% of SS default.  That is why the 88% warning is there ,and not the warning  "armor belt doesn't cover engine space or magazines."

It's also the reason I considered NEDS, and therefor only put 16 secundaries on her.