Feasibility Study - Fuel based Upkeep

[Tanthalas]

Just for Comparison purposes, as we are talking about money and its general availibility, I give you HIMS Never Sail in both formats (N3.00 Maintnence Costs and proposed N4.XX maintnence costs)

N3.00 Costs
BC          1          16631          $16.63          $16.63          a          0.415775
and N4.XX proposed Costs
dreadnought like   16631   17383   18434   22   4000   12   1892   6.234361407   24.06729125   32.51722813   10.74087987   34.31183893   52.59839733   752

IMHO we are getting to complex and im a big proponent of KISS

It depends on our finances obviously, but if a ship costs light displacement devided by 100 in whatever we call our curency (last N3 system) wouldnt it make sence to base upkeap off that cost? Honestly from historic documents a base percentage of original costs spent on upkeap during peace and wartime should be fairly easy to come up with (actualy I already have the formula as thats how upkeep in N3 was figured)

[Nobody]

Just for Comparison purposes, as we are talking about money and its general availibility, I give you HIMS Never Sail in both formats (N3.00 Maintnence Costs and proposed N4.XX maintnence costs)

N3.00 Costs
BC          1          16631          $16.63          $16.63          a          0.415775
and N4.XX proposed Costs
dreadnought like   16631   17383   18434   22   4000   12   1892   6.234361407   24.06729125   32.51722813   10.74087987   34.31183893   52.59839733   752

IMHO we are getting to complex and im a big proponent of KISS

It depends on our finances obviously, but if a ship costs light displacement devided by 100 in whatever we call our curency (last N3 system) wouldnt it make sence to base upkeap off that cost? Honestly from historic documents a base percentage of original costs spent on upkeap during peace and wartime should be fairly easy to come up with (actualy I already have the formula as thats how upkeep in N3 was figured)

I'm not entirely sure what the first line stands for(you forgot the labels), but we already had 3 different upkeeps in N3 and we had additional cost and ammo to track in wartime, but I don't remember how that was handled or how it affected ships. There were also several more possible upkeep values in the old system if the ship was civil, a tender, a DD/TB a sub or an MTB. So there actually used to be ~15 different values to "choose" from.

You also make my proposal look a bit more complicated than it is. We have pretty much discarded the idea of tracking ammo, so at least 3 of these column are no longer needed. Of the remaining 6 are alternates - you will only ever see one of these in you reports at any time.
Is that one number more difficult to calculate? Yes. Does that matter? No, I don't think so. It's one enclosed formula to be copied over which you will never need to look at if you don't want to.

My original comment on this still stands:

In its most basic form a fuel based upkeep requires only 3 numbers to be copied from SpringSharp: cruise speed, range and maximum bunker size. [I also use max speed and its size to make it more interesting]
[...]
I think a fuel based upkeep is possible, interesting and worth the effort.

Whether or not its a good idea to have one of 2x3=6 different upkeep cost, is a different question. Would you prefer to have a lower number of readiness states or do you not want to distinguish between war and peacetime?

[Tanthalas]

ok gona try and keep it simple here =P (not my strongest suit honestly but I do try)

In N3 Rohan (the last country I had so I still have some data) had a per turn income of $207.30 (only France was higher), Asfaloth (bigest badest fast BB anyone built during the sim) weighed in at 36,200 tons light and cost me $36.20, per turn active upkeap on her was $0.905 or roughly 1/200th of my income.

Under the proposed N4 system she would still come in at 36,200 tons light im not sure how much she would cost initialy but upkeap would be $62.32 per turn active. 

Now since France was the basis for the UK and their proposed income is $300.00 per turn 63.32 per ship maintnence or roughly 1/4 their per turn income dosnt that sound a bit high?

[Nobody]

ok gona try and keep it simple here =P (not my strongest suit honestly but I do try)

That's always a good idea.  :)
A good idea I'm usually not very good at either.

Under the proposed N4 system she would still come in at 36,200 tons light im not sure how much she would cost initialy but upkeap would be $62.32 per turn active. 

Now since France was the basis for the UK and their proposed income is $300.00 per turn 63.32 per ship maintnence or roughly 1/4 their per turn income dosnt that sound a bit high?

Yes and no. That's way I said it was too early to propose numbers.
Okay, first: at this point we can still easily scale them to whatever range we want. Would you like it more if we say divide my proposal by 10?
The other thing why I said its to early for those $300 is that, once we have decided on the upkeep, I want to calculate a build price based on that. I think that building a ship costing between 5 and 15 years of upkeep is reasonably. In my lets call it "high-number-proposal" that could be 25$ per thousand tons normal.
Based on that I would calculate the starting economy to accommodate that.

A possible income for Rohan could be around $5200 if calculated on the build cost (N3: 36,2 of 207.3 is 17.4%; HNP: 36.2*$25=$905 of 5200 is 17.4%) and paying about 1.2% of your national income for a big battleship seems reasonably to me as well.

How does that sound?

[Tanthalas]

Upkeap on Asfaloth was roughly half a Percent of Rohans income, as Rohan I always thought that was a bit low I would say around 1% but your 1.2% could be more acurate Just for comparison sake if Rohan had gone to war (with who I have no idea but its just for the numbers) Mobalized Asfolath cost Rohan 1.81 almost 1% Rohans income and double her simply active cost.  P3D came up with the original numbers and he isnt around to ask how he did it, That said im fairly sure he was acurate based on OTL.

What I want to avoid like the plague is making things more complex simply for the sake of complexity.  Honestly I see nothing wrong with just reusing the N3 naval costs and maintnence system for ships, but im open to adjustments.  Just for Comparisons I just moved the entire Rohan Navy to Mobalized status (thank god I still have the spread sheat) Costing on the 24 battleships, 12 battlecruisers, 72 Light Cruisers, and 100 Destroyers (I was still light on them but building them like mad) is  47.80 or roughly 1/4 of my total income.  I dont feal bad aobut that for wartime, but in peacetime it feals high (and yes I know I had a god awful huge fleet for N3).

[snip]

*lesigh* Im beginning to see why previous talks about rules were closed-door...

[Tanthalas]

*giggles* because getting 4 or more people to agree on anything is kind of like hearding cats, without the treats...

*lesigh* Im beginning to see why previous talks about rules were closed-door...

[Nobody]

*lesigh* Im beginning to see why previous talks about rules were closed-door...

Well ask 4 people what they think and you get at least 5 answers. At least I now know I'm not the only one who likes an upkeep with a somewhat more realistic base or at least finds the idea interesting.

I'm not sure if snips ruling yesterday ruled my proposed form of upkeep out, but I at least want you to show this variant.
I reduced the values to a level that I think is roughly the same to the N3 niveau. In comparison the building cost should probably be $2 per kiloton.

Aside from being more complex - to be more realistic (in the main category of this sim) - this would also simplify some upkeep aspekts, because we would no longer need special rules and numbers for civil ships, tenders, destroyers and torpedo-boats, MTBs, MGBs and submarines.

[Tanthalas]

Im not against your idea realy, I just thought either it or finances needed a major adjustment to fit the setting.  Part of the reason for the way things were in N3 was simply to keep things managable for the mods, the rest was a compromise for simplicity (seriously we had players who flatly refused to use a spreadsheat).

*lesigh* Im beginning to see why previous talks about rules were closed-door...

Well ask 4 people what they think and you get at least 5 answers. At least I now know I'm not the only one who likes an upkeep with a somewhat more realistic base or at least finds the idea interesting.

I'm not sure if snips ruling yesterday ruled my proposed form of upkeep out, but I at least want you to show this variant.
I reduced the values to a level that I think is roughly the same to the N3 niveau. In comparison the building cost should probably be $2 per kiloton.

Aside from being more complex - to be more realistic (in the main category of this sim) - this would also simplify some upkeep aspekts, because we would no longer need special rules and numbers for civil ships, tenders, destroyers and torpedo-boats, MTBs, MGBs and submarines.

[snip]

Aside from being more complex - to be more realistic (in the main category of this sim) - this would also simplify some upkeep aspekts, because we would no longer need special rules and numbers for civil ships, tenders, destroyers and torpedo-boats, MTBs, MGBs and submarines.

While I don't like the enhanced complexity of computing upkeep for your average battleship, I do like how this could simplify upkeep for lighter ships. I don't want to shut this down without reason, it has proven to be a good reasonable discution so far. I do however not want ammo upkeep, that just goes a bit to far. However, one major consern of mine was brought up by Tan.

Im not against your idea realy, I just thought either it or finances needed a major adjustment to fit the setting.  Part of the reason for the way things were in N3 was simply to keep things managable for the mods, the rest was a compromise for simplicity (seriously we had players who flatly refused to use a spreadsheat).

Bold is mine. I feel moving to this system effectively forces reports into spreadsheets. I'm iffy about takeing this step.

As stated above, I do feel this system has the ability to eliminate some complexities in the upkeep system while making ship upkeep slightly more realistic. I do not feel it is a wholesale replacement for the system, rather an improvement on part of it. Here is what I would like you to do. Take the Naval page of the N3 spreadsheet and modify the upkeep to include your fuel proposal. Keep the tracked displacement at light and eliminate the upkeep modifiers for warships and subs. Once that is finished, post the empty one here so several of us can try it out with our N3 fleets so we get a range of how it looks and more people trying it out. From there if the reaction is positive and the numbers make sense, we can tweak if nessisary and work on rewriting the upkeep rules. Does this seem fair?

[Tanthalas]

Im willing, other than working on the map (My Eyes My Eyes) and goofing with my ship drawing im realy not doing anything.  I have full fleet lists (and saved reports) for France, MK, Rohan, and the NS (what everyone knows im the one that actualy built that MK monster fleet)

[Nobody]

Here is what I would like you to do. Take the Naval page of the N3 spreadsheet and modify the upkeep to include your fuel proposal. Keep the tracked displacement at light and eliminate the upkeep modifiers for warships and subs. Once that is finished, post the empty one here so several of us can try it out with our N3 fleets so we get a range of how it looks and more people trying it out. From there if the reaction is positive and the numbers make sense, we can tweak if nessisary and work on rewriting the upkeep rules. Does this seem fair?

Do you have a specific one in mind (link please) or should I use the one I got from P3D back then?

[snip]

Can you post the one that you have? I lost mine in a hard drive crash. Tan, if you could post yours as well so we have another copy.

[Tanthalas]

I just used the P3D one, with some tweaks for personal preferance note im not very good with XL (but ironicly I can plan an assult on a hostile compound off the cuff in a parking lot under fire...).

the one I atached should hypotheticly be my final version (and convinently give you all Rohans numbers for whatever half it was)

[snip]

Nobody, go ahead and use that one.