USN ships

KWorld · September 07, 2012, 03:10:31 PM

A sim of the OTL USS New Orleans, before her refits that removed the British guns.

USS New Orleans, United States Protected Cruiser laid down 1895

Displacement:
   3,392 t light; 3,554 t standard; 3,988 t normal; 4,335 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (364.50 ft / 354.50 ft) x 43.75 ft x (18.00 / 19.18 ft)
   (111.10 m / 108.05 m) x 13.34 m x (5.49 / 5.84 m)

Armament:
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm 50.0 cal guns - 105.01lbs / 47.63kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1895 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
4 - 4.70" / 119 mm 50.0 cal guns - 45.00lbs / 20.41kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 810 lbs / 367 kg
Main Torpedoes
3 - 18.0" / 457 mm, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m torpedoes - 0.405 t each, 1.215 t total
   In 3 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes
2nd Torpedoes
9 - 18.0" / 457 mm, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m torpedoes - 0.405 t each, 3.645 t total
   In 3 sets of deck mounted reloads

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   3.00" / 76 mm   330.00 ft / 100.58 m   5.00 ft / 1.52 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.00" / 51 mm     -           -
   2nd:   0.50" / 13 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 1.50" / 38 mm
   Forecastle: 1.50" / 38 mm Quarter deck: 1.50" / 38 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 3.00" / 76 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9,230 ihp / 6,886 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 781 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   250 - 326

Cost:
   £0.417 million / $1.666 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 238 tons, 6.0 %
     - Guns: 232 tons, 5.8 %
     - Weapons: 6 tons, 0.2 %
   Armour: 537 tons, 13.5 %
     - Belts: 192 tons, 4.8 %
     - Armament: 39 tons, 1.0 %
     - Armour Deck: 289 tons, 7.2 %
     - Conning Tower: 16 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,529 tons, 38.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,088 tons, 27.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 596 tons, 14.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     2,251 lbs / 1,021 Kg = 20.8 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.47
   Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 11.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 85 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.25
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.70

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.510
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.83 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     - Aft deck:   35.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     - Average freeboard:      13.02 ft / 3.97 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 143.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 94.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 10,334 Square feet or 960 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 72 lbs/sq ft or 350 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.86
      - Overall: 1.04
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

KWorld · September 07, 2012, 03:15:41 PM

An ahistorical refit of the New Orleans class, to replace the British weapons with USN-standard guns. The hull sponsons are suppressed and their guns moved to main deck level.

USS New Orleans, United States Protected Cruiser laid down 1895

Displacement:
   3,402 t light; 3,554 t standard; 3,988 t normal; 4,335 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (364.50 ft / 354.50 ft) x 43.75 ft x (18.00 / 19.18 ft)
   (111.10 m / 108.05 m) x 13.34 m x (5.49 / 5.84 m)

Armament:
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm 50.0 cal guns - 105.01lbs / 47.63kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1895 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 4.00" / 102 mm 50.0 cal guns - 30.00lbs / 13.61kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1899 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 750 lbs / 340 kg
Main Torpedoes
3 - 18.0" / 457 mm, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m torpedoes - 0.405 t each, 1.215 t total
   In 3 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes
2nd Torpedoes
9 - 18.0" / 457 mm, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m torpedoes - 0.405 t each, 3.645 t total
   In 3 sets of deck mounted reloads

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   3.00" / 76 mm   330.00 ft / 100.58 m   5.00 ft / 1.52 m

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.00" / 51 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 1.50" / 38 mm
   Forecastle: 1.50" / 38 mm Quarter deck: 1.50" / 38 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 3.00" / 76 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9,230 ihp / 6,886 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 781 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   250 - 326

Cost:
   £0.413 million / $1.652 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 222 tons, 5.6 %
     - Guns: 216 tons, 5.4 %
     - Weapons: 6 tons, 0.2 %
   Armour: 532 tons, 13.3 %
     - Belts: 192 tons, 4.8 %
     - Armament: 34 tons, 0.9 %
     - Armour Deck: 289 tons, 7.2 %
     - Conning Tower: 16 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,532 tons, 38.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,116 tons, 28.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 586 tons, 14.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     2,188 lbs / 992 Kg = 20.3 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.37
   Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 11.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 81 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.63

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.510
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.83 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     - Aft deck:   35.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     - Average freeboard:      13.02 ft / 3.97 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 142.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 94.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 10,334 Square feet or 960 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 73 lbs/sq ft or 355 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.77
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Tanthalas · September 09, 2012, 01:08:48 AM

Quote from: Delta Force on August 28, 2012, 07:33:15 PM
Midship turrets seem to be more of a dreadnought feature to me. Perhaps save it for the dreadnought era?

You realy dont want me to start in on the whole AQY layot thing... let it sufice to say Germany got it right in 1890 then sucumb to doing it the way everyone else did...

KWorld · September 09, 2012, 03:42:34 AM

Certainly seems that way. And it's not just the Brandenburgs, the French had some AQY battleships that predated the Brandenburgs, the Admiral Baudins. The only technical problem I can see with the AQY is the close proximity between the engine rooms and the Q magazine, but this can't have been too much of a problem or there wouldn't have been all those Q turret equipped dreadnoughts.

What I found funny is that no one bats an eye when I sim the historical Kearsarge, with her stacked turrets. But venture into AQY territory and there's trouble. Even though technically, AQY is easier than stacked turrets, it's just a matter of fitting another turret on board.

Tanthalas · September 09, 2012, 10:28:17 AM

You are exactly Correct, the Brandenburgs are just the most famous example of what the Nverse refers to as "semi dreadnaughts". In ways I understand the angst about them (I was around for the N2 insanity), however over all I disagree with the people who are against AQY. The way I see it is its a personal choice, and if you are willing to deal with the issues I feal you should be allowed to build them.

Quote from: KWorld on September 09, 2012, 03:42:34 AM
Certainly seems that way. And it's not just the Brandenburgs, the French had some AQY battleships that predated the Brandenburgs, the Admiral Baudins. The only technical problem I can see with the AQY is the close proximity between the engine rooms and the Q magazine, but this can't have been too much of a problem or there wouldn't have been all those Q turret equipped dreadnoughts.

What I found funny is that no one bats an eye when I sim the historical Kearsarge, with her stacked turrets. But venture into AQY territory and there's trouble. Even though technically, AQY is easier than stacked turrets, it's just a matter of fitting another turret on board.

KWorld · September 11, 2012, 06:21:35 AM

An a-historical USN 1885 coastal battleship.

USS Vermont, United States Coastal battleship laid down 1885
Barbette ship

Displacement:
   9,708 t light; 10,225 t standard; 10,738 t normal; 11,149 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (380.00 ft / 380.00 ft) x 63.30 ft x (25.00 / 25.80 ft)
   (115.82 m / 115.82 m) x 19.29 m x (7.62 / 7.86 m)

Armament:
4 - 13.00" / 330 mm 30.0 cal guns - 999.99lbs / 453.59kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in open barbette mounts, 1885 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm 35.0 cal guns - 105.01lbs / 47.63kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1885 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
20 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1885 Model
     12 x Single mounts layout not set
      12 raised mounts
     8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      8 double raised mounts
36 - 0.45" / 11.4 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.05lbs / 0.02kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1885 Model
     6 x Single mounts on side ends, majority forward
      6 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,382 lbs / 2,441 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   18.0" / 457 mm   180.00 ft / 54.86 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   199.90 ft / 60.93 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Upper:   12.0" / 305 mm   180.00 ft / 54.86 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 73 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:     -        -         20.0" / 508 mm
   2nd:   4.00" / 102 mm     -         4.00" / 102 mm
   3rd:   0.50" / 13 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
   Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 18.00" / 457 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,903 ihp / 5,895 Kw = 16.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 8.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 923 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   526 - 685

Cost:
   £0.774 million / $3.096 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 598 tons, 5.6 %
     - Guns: 598 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 4,461 tons, 41.5 %
     - Belts: 2,431 tons, 22.6 %
     - Armament: 1,170 tons, 10.9 %
     - Armour Deck: 672 tons, 6.3 %
     - Conning Tower: 189 tons, 1.8 %
   Machinery: 1,536 tons, 14.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,112 tons, 29.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,031 tons, 9.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     13,153 lbs / 5,966 Kg = 12.9 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.29
   Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 13.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.42

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.625 / 0.629
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     - Aft deck:   35.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     - Average freeboard:      12.24 ft / 3.73 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 67.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 78.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 18,007 Square feet or 1,673 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 132 lbs/sq ft or 645 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.91
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

KWorld · September 11, 2012, 06:31:59 AM

An alternate version of the above, using the layout of the Admiral Baudin.

USS Vermont, United States Coastal battleship laid down 1885
Barbette ship

Displacement:
   9,426 t light; 9,935 t standard; 10,439 t normal; 10,843 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (380.00 ft / 380.00 ft) x 63.30 ft x (24.50 / 25.29 ft)
   (115.82 m / 115.82 m) x 19.29 m x (7.47 / 7.71 m)

Armament:
3 - 13.00" / 330 mm 30.0 cal guns - 999.99lbs / 453.59kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in open barbette mounts, 1885 Model
     3 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm 35.0 cal guns - 105.01lbs / 47.63kg shells, 180 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1885 Model
     14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
20 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1885 Model
     12 x Single mounts layout not set
      12 raised mounts
     8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      8 double raised mounts
36 - 0.45" / 11.4 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.05lbs / 0.02kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1885 Model
     6 x Single mounts on side ends, majority forward
      6 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,592 lbs / 2,083 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   18.0" / 457 mm   180.00 ft / 54.86 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   199.90 ft / 60.93 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Upper:   12.0" / 305 mm   180.00 ft / 54.86 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 73 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:     -        -         20.0" / 508 mm
   2nd:   8.00" / 203 mm     -         6.00" / 152 mm
   3rd:   0.50" / 13 mm     -           -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
   Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 18.00" / 457 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,762 ihp / 5,791 Kw = 16.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 8.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 908 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   516 - 671

Cost:
   £0.725 million / $2.900 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 585 tons, 5.6 %
     - Guns: 585 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 4,447 tons, 42.6 %
     - Belts: 2,431 tons, 23.3 %
     - Armament: 1,163 tons, 11.1 %
     - Armour Deck: 669 tons, 6.4 %
     - Conning Tower: 185 tons, 1.8 %
   Machinery: 1,509 tons, 14.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,885 tons, 27.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,014 tons, 9.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     13,418 lbs / 6,086 Kg = 13.2 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.32
   Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 13.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.36
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.40

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.620 / 0.624
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 15.00 ft / 4.57 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     - Aft deck:   35.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     - Average freeboard:      12.24 ft / 3.73 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 65.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 79.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 17,924 Square feet or 1,665 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 126 lbs/sq ft or 613 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.73
      - Overall: 1.01
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Desertfox · September 11, 2012, 12:20:46 PM

I have no issue with people building AQY ships, just know there's a reason why it wasn't done in OTL. The Brandenburgs btw had two different gun types. The Q turret had smaller calibre 11" guns. Without dreadnought level fire control a conventional pre-dread will defeat an AQY everything else being equal.

KWorld · September 11, 2012, 12:43:13 PM

Actually, no one really knows who'd win, no AQY ships ever fought. There weren't a lot of them, and their owners stayed out of naval conflicts until after their AQY ships had retired from active combat service.

Yes, the Brandenburgs had two different caliber main battery guns, but the Admiral Baudins and the Admiral Duperre which preceded them did not.

KWorld · September 12, 2012, 05:15:18 AM

The OTL USS Illinois. Equipped with Harvey armor, like the preceding classes.

USS Illinois, United States Battleship laid down 1897

Displacement:
   9,924 t light; 10,482 t standard; 11,425 t normal; 12,180 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (374.00 ft / 368.00 ft) x 72.25 ft x (23.50 / 24.81 ft)
   (114.00 m / 112.17 m) x 22.02 m x (7.16 / 7.56 m)

Armament:
4 - 13.00" / 330 mm 35.0 cal guns - 1,130.00lbs / 512.56kg shells, 60 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1897 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 105.01lbs / 47.63kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1897 Model
     14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      10 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in any sea
16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1897 Model
     16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      16 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,086 lbs / 2,761 kg
Main Torpedoes
4 - 18.0" / 457 mm, 16.50 ft / 5.03 m torpedoes - 0.540 t each, 2.160 t total
   submerged side tubes
2nd Torpedoes
12 - 18.0" / 457 mm, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m torpedoes - 0.618 t each, 7.413 t total
   In 2 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   16.5" / 419 mm   195.00 ft / 59.44 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   172.99 ft / 52.73 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Upper:   14.0" / 356 mm   159.00 ft / 48.46 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 82 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      15.0" / 381 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm     -         5.50" / 140 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
   Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 6.00" / 152 mm, Aft 6.00" / 152 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8,081 ihp / 6,029 Kw = 16.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,698 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   552 - 718

Cost:
   £0.898 million / $3.590 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 781 tons, 6.8 %
     - Guns: 768 tons, 6.7 %
     - Weapons: 14 tons, 0.1 %
   Armour: 4,656 tons, 40.8 %
     - Belts: 2,910 tons, 25.5 %
     - Armament: 862 tons, 7.5 %
     - Armour Deck: 753 tons, 6.6 %
     - Conning Towers: 131 tons, 1.1 %
   Machinery: 1,325 tons, 11.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,161 tons, 27.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,502 tons, 13.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15,591 lbs / 7,072 Kg = 14.2 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 6.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.40
   Metacentric height 5.5 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 12.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.36
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.37

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.640 / 0.646
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.09 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1.00 ft / 0.30 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
     - Forward deck:   45.00 %, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
     - Aft deck:   20.00 %, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
     - Average freeboard:      11.20 ft / 3.41 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 79.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 20,182 Square feet or 1,875 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 635 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.90
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

KWorld · September 12, 2012, 05:56:54 AM

And a non-historical version, where the 12" gun used on the Iowas was retained rather than returning to the older 13". Weight saved is used to move some of the 6" guns up a deck, and to increase freeboard and coal storage, and strengthen the forward conning tower armor.

USS Illinois, United States Battleship laid down 1897

Displacement:
   9,846 t light; 10,408 t standard; 11,425 t normal; 12,239 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (375.00 ft / 368.00 ft) x 72.25 ft x (23.50 / 24.91 ft)
   (114.30 m / 112.17 m) x 22.02 m x (7.16 / 7.59 m)

Armament:
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm 35.0 cal guns - 870.01lbs / 394.63kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1897 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 105.01lbs / 47.63kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1897 Model
     14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in any sea
16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1897 Model
     16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      16 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,046 lbs / 2,289 kg
Main Torpedoes
4 - 18.0" / 457 mm, 16.50 ft / 5.03 m torpedoes - 0.540 t each, 2.160 t total
   submerged side tubes
2nd Torpedoes
12 - 18.0" / 457 mm, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m torpedoes - 0.618 t each, 7.413 t total
   In 2 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   16.5" / 419 mm   220.80 ft / 67.30 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   147.18 ft / 44.86 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Upper:   14.0" / 356 mm   184.00 ft / 56.08 m   7.00 ft / 2.13 m
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      15.0" / 381 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm     -         6.00" / 152 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.25" / 57 mm
   Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm Quarter deck: 2.25" / 57 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 14.00" / 356 mm, Aft 6.00" / 152 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8,081 ihp / 6,029 Kw = 16.00 kts
   Range 6,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,831 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   552 - 718

Cost:
   £0.831 million / $3.324 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 672 tons, 5.9 %
     - Guns: 659 tons, 5.8 %
     - Weapons: 14 tons, 0.1 %
   Armour: 4,825 tons, 42.2 %
     - Belts: 3,000 tons, 26.3 %
     - Armament: 768 tons, 6.7 %
     - Armour Deck: 838 tons, 7.3 %
     - Conning Towers: 219 tons, 1.9 %
   Machinery: 1,325 tons, 11.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,024 tons, 26.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,580 tons, 13.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     16,882 lbs / 7,657 Kg = 19.5 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 6.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.40
   Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 12.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.30
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.36

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.640 / 0.647
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.09 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1.00 ft / 0.30 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
     - Forward deck:   50.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
     - Aft deck:   10.00 %, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
     - Quarter deck:   20.00 %, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m, 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
     - Average freeboard:      10.90 ft / 3.32 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 64.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 81.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 20,182 Square feet or 1,875 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 124 lbs/sq ft or 607 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.83
      - Overall: 1.01
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

KWorld · September 12, 2012, 06:18:55 AM

And a non-historical version of Kearsarge, with the brown-powder 13" guns replaced by smokeless powder 12" guns. Additional strength used up by increasing coal supply, raising freeboard, and thickening upper and end belts by 1".

USS Kearsarge, United States Coast Defence Battleship laid down 1896

Displacement:
   10,605 t light; 11,244 t standard; 12,250 t normal; 13,055 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (380.50 ft / 375.50 ft) x 72.25 ft x (23.50 / 24.83 ft)
   (115.98 m / 114.45 m) x 22.02 m x (7.16 / 7.57 m)

Armament:
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm 40.0 cal guns - 870.01lbs / 394.63kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1896 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 8.00" / 203 mm 35.0 cal guns - 259.99lbs / 117.93kg shells, 125 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1896 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
14 - 6.00" / 152 mm 50.0 cal guns - 105.01lbs / 47.63kg shells, 180 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1896 Model
     14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
20 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1896 Model
     20 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      20 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,110 lbs / 2,771 kg
Main Torpedoes
1 - 18.0" / 457 mm, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m torpedo - 0.519 t total
   submerged bow tube
2nd Torpedoes
4 - 18.0" / 457 mm, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m torpedoes - 0.519 t each, 2.074 t total
   below water reloads

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   16.5" / 419 mm   262.85 ft / 80.12 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   112.63 ft / 34.33 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   262.85 ft / 80.12 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   17.0" / 432 mm   9.00" / 229 mm      15.0" / 381 mm
   2nd:   10.0" / 254 mm   6.00" / 152 mm        -
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm     -         5.00" / 127 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
   Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 6.00" / 152 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8,460 ihp / 6,311 Kw = 16.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,811 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   581 - 756

Cost:
   £1.004 million / $4.014 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,010 tons, 8.2 %
     - Guns: 1,006 tons, 8.2 %
     - Weapons: 4 tons, 0.0 %
   Armour: 4,738 tons, 38.7 %
     - Belts: 2,759 tons, 22.5 %
     - Armament: 1,004 tons, 8.2 %
     - Armour Deck: 792 tons, 6.5 %
     - Conning Towers: 183 tons, 1.5 %
   Machinery: 1,410 tons, 11.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,447 tons, 28.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,645 tons, 13.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15,474 lbs / 7,019 Kg = 17.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 6.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.29
   Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 13.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.44

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.673 / 0.678
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.20 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.38 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   15.00 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     - Aft deck:   40.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     - Quarter deck:   15.00 %, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m, 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     - Average freeboard:      12.42 ft / 3.79 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 83.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 21,214 Square feet or 1,971 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 138 lbs/sq ft or 675 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 1.95
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Tanthalas · September 12, 2012, 08:38:16 AM

my only complaint (and it could be a leftover from previous Nverses) is that the belts arnt realy tall enough. I have never found a good historical referance on belt heights but I always went for 2 decks of coverage (14' was my personal preferance)

KWorld · September 12, 2012, 08:53:18 AM

At this time period, main belts are often VERY short: 8' was common, and the Indiana's had a main belt that was only 7' 3" tall (3' above the waterline at normal load, 1' below the waterline at full 18" thickness, then tapering to 8.5" over the remaining 3' 3"). The Royal Sovereign's had an 8' 6" belt of 18" armor. So, yeah, I agree the belt's short, but if I'm building OTL ships (and most of these are) before game start, that's per history.

Tanthalas · September 12, 2012, 08:57:51 AM

Oh using historical heights is fine, I was just afraid you might be falling into the trap of clicking the average button, which everyone figures out fairly quickly is anything but average.

Quote from: KWorld on September 12, 2012, 08:53:18 AM
At this time period, main belts are often VERY short: 8' was common, and the Indiana's had a main belt that was only 7' 3" tall (3' above the waterline at normal load, 1' below the waterline at full 18" thickness, then tapering to 8.5" over the remaining 3' 3"). The Royal Sovereign's had an 8' 6" belt of 18" armor. So, yeah, I agree the belt's short, but if I'm building OTL ships (and most of these are) before game start, that's per history.