Colonial Navy

[Delta Force]

About how much higher than the draught can freeboard get before it is just silly? I've realized that the freeboard needs to be higher on my torpedo boats to compensate for higher speeds from reducing coal for more machinery. That, and increasing the freeboard of the torpedo boats costs a very small amount of tonnage relative to the improvements gained in seaworthiness (sometimes it even increases hull strength).

[Carthaginian]

About how much higher than the draught can freeboard get before it is just silly? I've realized that the freeboard needs to be higher on my torpedo boats to compensate for higher speeds from reducing coal for more machinery. That, and increasing the freeboard of the torpedo boats costs a very small amount of tonnage relative to the improvements gained in seaworthiness (sometimes it even increases hull strength).

Have to point you to historic examples.
Look and guess- it's what we all do.

[Delta Force]

Any ideas on what to do with a few hundred extra kilograms (possibly even a few tons) worth of extra payload for my torpedo boats? I've gotten them as fast as they can get while still maintaining 0.50 cross-sectional strength. Should I devote it towards more ammunition or fuel, or is there anything better people can think of?

[Carthaginian]

If you can trick the composite strength out of her, range is always the best thing.
Ammo... a torpedo boat isn't supposed to shoot.

Something to think about might be a thin- like 5mm or 0.25"- 'conning tower'; this would represent a spray shield for the helmsman and commander.

[Carthaginian]

CRAP - I just noticed... you didn't include the tonnage for your torpedoes.
You'll need to account for those.

[Delta Force]

CRAP - I just noticed... you didn't include the tonnage for your torpedoes.
You'll need to account for those.

It just looks like there is nothing for the torpedoes because my light torpedo boats have only two rather small torpedoes in single shot launchers, so more would be useful for helping the torpedo boat to be a torpedo boat. A spray shield sounds nice too and it would help protect against small arms fire. Lots of good recommendations.

[Carthaginian]

It just looks like there is nothing for the torpedoes because my light torpedo boats have only two rather small torpedoes in single shot launchers, so more would be useful for helping the torpedo boat to be a torpedo boat. A spray shield sounds nice too and it would help protect against small arms fire. Lots of good recommendations.

NO.
There is no Miscellaneous Weight reserved for the torps.

2 - 15.7" / 400 mm, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m torpedoes - 0.433 t each, 0.866 t total
   In 2 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes

   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

You should be reserving 1 ton for the torpedoes, but you are not.
That will have to be fixed.
It's in the "Design Rules for Gentlemen... and Scoundrels."

1.) Torpedoes: for each torpedo, as laid out by Springsharp; this includes both torpedoes in the tube and reloads, whether above or below deck. Make sure weight allotted for reloads is allocated in the proper location!

[eltf177]

Besides the lack of miscellaneous weight for all designs the 1905 TB is listed as only having six 19.7-inch reload torpedoes. Should this be two 19.7-inch fixed beam tubes and four reloads?

[KWorld]

Actually, as long as you save and reload the design, the weight of torpedoes and tubes is correctly included.

Example (based on my second-class TB from yesterday) without torpedoes (only change from yesterday's post is to make the number of tubes 0):

TBS-08, Columbiad Republic Torpedo Boat, Second Class laid down 1908

Displacement:
   99 t light; 102 t standard; 111 t normal; 118 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (123.75 ft / 123.03 ft) x 11.48 ft x (7.22 / 7.50 ft)
   (37.72 m / 37.50 m) x 3.50 m  x (2.20 / 2.29 m)

Armament:
      2 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1908 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 0.43" / 11.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.04lbs / 0.02kg shells, 1,200 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1905 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 8 lbs / 4 kg

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 3,179 shp / 2,371 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 130nm at 20.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 15 tons (90% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   16 - 22

Cost:
   £0.013 million / $0.051 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 1.8 %
      - Guns: 2 tons, 1.8 %
   Machinery: 63 tons, 56.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 34 tons, 31.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 12 tons, 10.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     25 lbs / 12 Kg = 6.7 x 2.0 " / 50 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.02
   Metacentric height 0.2 ft / 0.1 m
   Roll period: 10.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 47 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.23
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.76

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.388
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.71 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 11.09 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 72 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  8.20 ft / 2.50 m,  6.56 ft / 2.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  6.56 ft / 2.00 m,  5.74 ft / 1.75 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  5.74 ft / 1.75 m,  5.74 ft / 1.75 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  5.74 ft / 1.75 m,  5.74 ft / 1.75 m
      - Average freeboard:      6.16 ft / 1.88 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 187.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 44.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 858 Square feet or 80 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 31 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 15 lbs/sq ft or 73 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.55
      - Longitudinal: 5.31
      - Overall: 0.69
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather


Note the hull strength: cross-sectional 0.55, overall 0.69.

Now, the ONLY change I'll make is to add 2 center-line rotating 450mm/6m torpedo tubes:

TBS-08, Columbiad Republic Torpedo Boat, Second Class laid down 1908

Displacement:
   99 t light; 102 t standard; 111 t normal; 118 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (123.75 ft / 123.03 ft) x 11.48 ft x (7.22 / 7.50 ft)
   (37.72 m / 37.50 m) x 3.50 m  x (2.20 / 2.29 m)

Armament:
      2 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1908 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 0.43" / 11.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.04lbs / 0.02kg shells, 1,200 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1905 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 8 lbs / 4 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      2 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m torpedoes - 0.901 t each, 1.801 t total
   In 1 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 3,179 shp / 2,371 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 130nm at 20.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 15 tons (90% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   16 - 22

Cost:
   £0.013 million / $0.051 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 6 tons, 5.1 %
      - Guns: 2 tons, 1.8 %
      - Weapons: 4 tons, 3.3 %
   Machinery: 63 tons, 56.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 34 tons, 31.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 12 tons, 10.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     25 lbs / 12 Kg = 6.7 x 2.0 " / 50 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.02
   Metacentric height 0.2 ft / 0.1 m
   Roll period: 10.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 47 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.24
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.76

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.388
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.71 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 11.09 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 72 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  8.20 ft / 2.50 m,  6.56 ft / 2.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  6.56 ft / 2.00 m,  5.74 ft / 1.75 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  5.74 ft / 1.75 m,  5.74 ft / 1.75 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  5.74 ft / 1.75 m,  5.74 ft / 1.75 m
      - Average freeboard:      6.16 ft / 1.88 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 187.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 44.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 858 Square feet or 80 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 31 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 15 lbs/sq ft or 73 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.55
      - Longitudinal: 5.31
      - Overall: 0.69
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

No change, it hasn't been saved and reloaded.  Here's the saved and reloaded version:

TBS-08, Columbiad Republic Torpedo Boat, Second Class laid down 1908

Displacement:
   99 t light; 102 t standard; 111 t normal; 118 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (123.75 ft / 123.03 ft) x 11.48 ft x (7.22 / 7.50 ft)
   (37.72 m / 37.50 m) x 3.50 m  x (2.20 / 2.29 m)

Armament:
      2 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1908 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 0.43" / 11.0 mm 90.0 cal guns - 0.04lbs / 0.02kg shells, 1,200 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1905 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 8 lbs / 4 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      2 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m torpedoes - 0.901 t each, 1.801 t total
   In 1 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 3,179 shp / 2,371 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 130nm at 20.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 15 tons (90% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   16 - 22

Cost:
   £0.013 million / $0.051 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 6 tons, 5.1 %
      - Guns: 2 tons, 1.8 %
      - Weapons: 4 tons, 3.3 %
   Machinery: 63 tons, 56.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 31 tons, 27.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 12 tons, 10.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     23 lbs / 11 Kg = 6.1 x 2.0 " / 50 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
   Metacentric height 0.2 ft / 0.1 m
   Roll period: 10.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 48 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.23
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.79

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.380 / 0.388
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.71 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 11.09 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 72 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  8.20 ft / 2.50 m,  6.56 ft / 2.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  6.56 ft / 2.00 m,  5.74 ft / 1.75 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  5.74 ft / 1.75 m,  5.74 ft / 1.75 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  5.74 ft / 1.75 m,  5.74 ft / 1.75 m
      - Average freeboard:      6.16 ft / 1.88 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 187.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 44.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 858 Square feet or 80 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 31 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 14 lbs/sq ft or 66 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 4.77
      - Overall: 0.62
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Note the cross-sectional strength (0.50) and the overall strength: (0.62): they've now dropped to what they should be.  There's clearly a flaw in SS 3b3 where it apparently only subtracts the weight of Weapons (have to check Mines) upon loading up a design, even though it calculates the weight and includes it in the design.

So, it looks like the answer is EITHER: add sufficient miscellaneous weight for your weapons AND don't reload the design once you're done with it; OR create your design, save it, and reload it.  Either of these options will give you the correct results.

[KWorld]

Just checked, SS 3b3 does the same thing with mines that it does with torps and DC/ASW.  And SS3b3 includes more weight for rails and handling equipment than we need to by the rules.


My suggestion: we use SS3b3 as is but make sure you save and reload before posting for any design that includes Weapons (torps, mines, DC, etc).  If we try to use miscellaneous weight, you can't include the weapons in the design, because if you ever tweak that design, SS will subtract the weight of those weapons again.

[Walter]

Too much work for me and I might forget it. I'll just stick to KISS and use miscellaneous weights. 8)

[KWorld]

That will work, as long as you do the design all at one sitting and never reload it after saving.  If you do reload it, you'll have double-weighted your Weapons.

[Walter]

Mines and DC/ASW I just don't fill into SS3 right now. I use miscellaneous weights only. For torpedoes, I had a higher number of torpedoes and miscellaneous weights, but after the last time when I reloaded it, I actually reduced the number of torpedoes to the number of tubes I have and rely on the miscellaneous weights for additional torpedoes in order to decrease the impact the torpedoes will have on the design's hull strength should there be a case when I have to reload the design.

[KWorld]

My problem is that I'm an inveterate tinkerer: I come up with a design, get satisfied with it, save it, then take it up again to "improve" it in some way.  That means that if I'm trying to use miscellaneous weight, I'll need to specify my Weapons in the Notes section, because I'll be double-weighting them a lot.  It's not a big deal on cruisers and battleships, their torps won't normally be a major factor.  With period-sized DDs, TBs, and minelayers, though..... the effects can be substantial.  Extreme designs (like very small TBs, or heavily loaded specialist minelayers) will show it even more (I have a cruiser-minelayer, design's in the CR Fleet section that gains .25 strength from settling on using Weapons vs Misc. Weight, or .27 strength if I go the other way).

[snip]

Carth and I are talking about the issue.