N4.5 Rules Question/Comment thread

[KWorld]

So, if we can only support, in wartime, fleets of about 150,000 tons (due to doubling of maintenance and the costs of maintaining armies), why bother with designing 500,000 tons of ships which you couldn't afford to build in the first place (because of the non-war maintenance requirements of already-in-service ships)?  The fleet's somehow lost almost 40% of it's last 15 years production by the time of game start???

[snip]

Also, matinece cost has been adjusted to 2.5%, I just have not changed it in the posted rules.

[KWorld]

Also, matinece cost has been adjusted to 2.5%, I just have not changed it in the posted rules.

Ah, OK, that makes a big difference.  :)

[Carthaginian]

Snip is wrapping up his semester. This is difficult time for him, and he doesn't have all the time in the world to devote to fixing the things that we got wrong with the rules. We are going to fix them, but we will have to let him ensure that his real life isn't affected by the process. ;D

He has adjusted the costs of thing to make ships cheaper to maintain, and we are going over any other disconnects, as time allows... he has too little due to finals, and I have too much owing to too few patients. ::) I assure you that this means I have been playing with the combat rules and should have something concrete for ground rules soon- something which, I hope, will at least be able to shake hands and play nice with the naval rules.

You can go ahead and plan, though, for any war to involve a lot of scrapping prior and during to make your fleet more manageable. The fact that we've let everyone build the biggest fleet that thier budget can support from the outset means that there will be no room for 'WWII era' U.S.N.-like expansion- you will have to give up something to get something.

[snip]

Ya, getting close to the end and with a few papers plus finals on my plate, this is going to go back burner. Once all that is done (about mid May) I will catch up everything as quick as I can.

[KWorld]

How much lift, in tons, is needed to move army units from one island to another?  And from where are we expecting to get that lift?  Can we charter liners/freighters/etc?  Do we have to build and maintain troopships?  Landing craft/ships?

For instance: Player X wants to capture a colony of Player Y's.  He can blockade it with his navy, he can maybe force it to pay tribute with his navy, but the only way to capture it and incorporate into his own empire is to force it to surrender to him which is going to require ground troops.  Since it's on another island, marching troops to it doesn't work, shipping will be needed.  Since we only have 1 size of troop unit (the corps), that will require a fair amount of lift, both passenger (for the troops) and freight (for their supplies and heavy equipment).  And then there's getting the troops off the ships and to the shore: if the colony's undefended, this isn't too hard (a couple cruisers pull into the harbor and fire on anyone firing on the boats making the initial landings), but if there are defenses, this doesn't work out well.

[Valles]

I believe that the figures I saw quoted were on the order of 4 tons/man for long-range transport and 4 men/ton for landing craft.

[KWorld]

That's a start.  How many men to the corps?  That will give us the number of tons needed for long-range transport.

[Carthaginian]

That's a start.  How many men to the corps?  That will give us the number of tons needed for long-range transport.

While not accurate with modern U.S. military nomenclature, this is the system to be used.
125 men = 1 Company
4 Companies = 1 Battalion
4 Battalions = 1 Brigade
4 Brigades = 1 Division
2 Divisions = 1 Corps

This gives us a 'nice, round number' of 16,000 men per Corps.*
A Corps-sized amphibious unit would, therefore, require 64,000 tons of cargo space to accomplish... meaning 12 moderately sized passenger vessels or 2 'super-liners' could easily transport a Corps during an in-combat maneuver.

NOTE: The  R.M.S. Queen Mary routinely carried approximately 15,000 men on her return trips to the U.S. (including one of her last, in 1946, which carried my Grandfather). If the men are not proceeding directly to combat- in other words, if they are going to a friendly port to garrison or if they are returning from a captured port to a friendly one- overcrowding will be allowed for storyline purposes only (because it has long been standard practice to cram troops in like sardines).

* This is roughly halfway between the smaller Union Army 'Corps' of (avg) 12,500 men and the larger Confederate Army 'Corps' of (avg) 20,000 men... the two units that I am most familiar with

[KWorld]

Small divisions, and small corps.  Corps normally have various units attached directly at Corps level, such as artillery, recon, armor, etc.  But if we, for simplicity's sake, don't worry about that, we certainly don't need to.

So, 64,000 tons for an infantry corps, what about the other types of corps that are more equipment heavy?

[Carthaginian]

Small divisions, and small corps.  Corps normally have various units attached directly at Corps level, such as artillery, recon, armor, etc.  But if we, for simplicity's sake, don't worry about that, we certainly don't need to.

So, 64,000 tons for an infantry corps, what about the other types of corps that are more equipment heavy?

I'm going to have to re-work the transport rules a bit as they are, as you point out- done only for infantry. We are going to shift- and the rules will be updated to represent this- to a new system for allotting weights for embarked units.

That system will be based on 1 Company = 500 tons (the same weight, 4 tons/1 man).

In the cases for Artillery and Armor 'corps'- again for simplicity sake I am going to say that any difference in manpower is made up by equipment weight. For instance, a tank company will require the same 'weight' for transporting, but it will only have 12 men in each of its 3 working platoons (it will still have 25 in the HQ platoon). This means that the tank company will have only 61 men... but those 61 men will require the same 500 tons that a 125 man infantry unit will require. Though this doesn't entirely represent the weight of the tanks, it does indicate that the unit is 'more expensive' per man to transport.

[KWorld]

The other problem for non-infantry units is that they're not amenable to transport by liner: a leg infantry division, minus it's artillery, can fairly easily walk onto and off of a liner, and it's ammunition can go below-decks.  Tank divisions, on the other hand, NEED freighters or even more specialized vessels to carry the tanks: you're not going to put out even a reinforced gangplank and load tanks onto a liner.  Motorized or mechanized infantry units have similar problems: lots of vehicles that don't fit on liners, and lots more people than an armored company (most armored divisions contain a fair amount of infantry, but not in armored companies).

[Carthaginian]

The other problem for non-infantry units is that they're not amenable to transport by liner: a leg infantry division, minus it's artillery, can fairly easily walk onto and off of a liner, and it's ammunition can go below-decks.  Tank divisions, on the other hand, NEED freighters or even more specialized vessels to carry the tanks: you're not going to put out even a reinforced gangplank and load tanks onto a liner.  Motorized or mechanized infantry units have similar problems: lots of vehicles that don't fit on liners, and lots more people than an armored company (most armored divisions contain a fair amount of infantry, but not in armored companies).

Yes, it will mean that specialist ships will have to be constructed for transport of these ships.
This is why we have auxiliary ship rules- for constructing ships to carry those kinds of units.

Having assisted in the movement of a modern, vehicle-mobile military unit form CONUS to operational theater and back... I have a small amount of knowledge as to what goes into this- though we did send our men by plane. ;) Our trucks and support equipment, though, had to go by ship.
Our trucks  went by a standard RO-RO, with generators and other sundry wheeled stuff towed behind.
Our other gear (heavy weapons, tents, poles, desks, copying machine, etc) went via container ship.

Constructing 'assault transports' shouldn't occur for some time in the future, IMO... at least until someone fights someone else in a large-scale action using armor and/or large artillery support and the need is recognized. At startup, we should realize that our nations- like nations in WWI- don't recognize the need for these kinds of vessels yet... and even thereafter there should be a few bumbling attempts to make one before LST's start sailing around on a regular basis.

[KWorld]

Well...... right now, the rules don't require this.  If we have armored or mechanized corps at start (and the rules currently allow for it), the rules currently say 500 tons/company and you're golden.  So, in theory, I take 6 of those liners I designed and load up an armored corps and I'm off to invade my neighbor.  Now, my neighbor might scream blue murder that I can't load them, but I can point to the rules and the mods comments and say I can.

[Carthaginian]

KWorld- if common sense says it can't be done, then you can't do it.
That shouldn't have to be in the rules.
Thank you, and I will ensure that the 'Gentleman's Rules' have something to say about this soon.