N4.5 Rules Question/Comment thread

[Desertfox]

Couple questions,

I read somewhere about a 20 knot limit on battleships and other ships, is there a speed limit or did I just misread something?

If I'm reading the treaty correctly, you can have treaty busters in service provided they were at least 75% complete as of the start of the treaty. So say pre-dreads with 13" guns would be allowed but no new ones could be built. Is this correct?

[Carthaginian]

Couple questions,

I read somewhere about a 20 knot limit on battleships and other ships, is there a speed limit or did I just misread something?

If I'm reading the treaty correctly, you can have treaty busters in service provided they were at least 75% complete as of the start of the treaty. So say pre-dreads with 13" guns would be allowed but no new ones could be built. Is this correct?

Treaty busters might be 'allowed within the treaty' but I believe that I have stated- at least individually to several people- that there will be no treaty busting AT ALL.

Thirdly- there will be no 'treaty-busting'; this is a sure ticket out of the game.
The treaty entitled AN AGREEMENT UPON LIMITATIONS FOR NAVAL VESSELS is the Rules as Written for this game. Nations may debate, threaten, or even produce misinformation about treaty-busting vessels; Players will abide by the restrictions of the treaty. If a player thinks the treaty is too restrictive, then there are mechanisms to make it less restrictive... get some other nations to support your idea and jump on it.

Treaty Busting = Banhammer.

If that has not been made clear prior to now, then it is now.
No ships that aren't permitted by the treaty are allowed- the loophole was simply to make the treaty sound more like the WNT. If it has to be closed, I will eliminate it.

NO TREATY BUSTING.


As for the BB speed limit, I don't recall making one.

[Desertfox]

Fair enough, I was thinking in terms of Hood. A disclaimer stating that pre-treaty ships should fall within the treaty limits would be nice.

[KWorld]

For going forward purposes, are there any expected changes to the ship design rules for 1910?  Ie, turbines migrating to other ship types where they're currently not allowed, triple turrets, all-big gun designs, a greater percentage of oil firing, etc?  Or will 1910 be under the same rules as 1909?

[snip]

All big-gun and turbines for sure. Trip's most likely given historical precedent from at least two classes from the era. Oil-firing has some strings attached IIRC, but Carth has that in the works so he will have to answer that.

[Carthaginian]

Back after an absolutely fucking worthless week at work.
Will be hard at work today after dinner with my wife.
Trips will be a treaty item, as will a great many other things.
Oil-Firing will be a 'special' technology... once per year, I'll roll a D10. If the roll > game year, then oil-firing will become available. There will be a mass e-mail sent out that will let everyone know that oil-firing is available. Ships in service or under production will be able to be altered according to forthcoming refit/rebuild rules; new ships will be able to be designed without penalty.

[KWorld]

Not sure I understand what you mean by "Trips will be a treaty item, as will a great many other things."  If by this you mean that we'll vote on whether these things will become available on some basis, I'll put down a marker that I'm in favor of allowing triple and quad gun mounts (the latter a la the Normandie-class design, the former from Dante Alighieri).

[Carthaginian]

Not sure I understand what you mean by "Trips will be a treaty item, as will a great many other things."  If by this you mean that we'll vote on whether these things will become available on some basis, I'll put down a marker that I'm in favor of allowing triple and quad gun mounts (the latter a la the Normandie-class design, the former from Dante Alighieri).

We are assuming that the treaty had no changes at the 3910 conference.
This means that a repeat conference will be held in two game years time- 3912.
That being the case, what you will need to do is 1.) make a convincing case, 2.) rally support of other players and 3.) get the allowance for these items voted in in the 1912 'Treaty Conference.' You have the qualifications for them being allowed: period appropriate example for both triples (Gangut-class, 1910) and quads (Normandie-class, 1912). All you would need is a majority vote... just like we did on the Torpedoes poll. That is how I intended treaty amendments to be done, a real-life style debate of merits followed by a vote of the 'representatives of our nations.' Any period-appropriate design feature can be voted upon.

[snip]

Ok, few updates on the rules. The following additions and changes have been made for sure.

• Military Airships were added into the aircraft section. They will cost 7PP each, wich is a little more then a group of recon aircraft. Upkeep follows the same rules as other aircraft. An unlimited number of airships can be in service when the game starts.
• The amount of starting PP has been halved. The new total is 960PP available for turn 0.
• Ports have been changed. Previously ports all drew there stats from only one PP investment. Now each category (Supported tonnage, maximum size of ships that can be constructed/modified and number of ships being constructed/modified) requires its own PP investment.
• A rule has been added on the only situation in with IDF's may be used for non-infrastructure purpaces. "1.4.B) If a nation is unable to meet its upkeep requirements in a time of war without using 75% or more of its total Military factory number ,rounded up to the nearest whole factory, that nation may use IDFs for covering this gap in maintenance. The PP gained from this may not be used for any other purpose."

[li]Some minor changes in wording regarding non-Naval military units completion time. Some ambiguity has been cleared up.
[/li][/list]

Things that still need to be added are as folows. Note this list is not exaughstive.

• Some form of making colonies outside of the mainland matter.
• Tweeks to numbers and wording as needed for clarity and functionality

Anything I have missed here?

[KWorld]

Two things you've missed out that were discussed earlier in this thread:

1 - No air units may be purchased at game start

2 - Types of land units at game start are limited to infantry and artillery.

[KWorld]

So, assuming that things will eventually get moving, what restrictions ARE changing for 1910?

1 - Will all big-gun ("Dreadnought"-type) ships be allowed?

2 - Will turbines be allowed in medium cruisers?

3 - Will turbines be allowed in armored cruisers?

4 - Will turbines be allowed in battleships?

5 - Will superfiring main batteries be allowed?


It's been stated that non-twin turrets will not be allowed for 1910, and that oil-firing will become available at a random point in the future.  How about increasing the percentage of oil-firing from 90% coal to, say, 80%?

[snip]

1-4 are for sure allowable. 5 does have historical precedent from the era, so I see no reason for its exclusion. I need to touch base with Carth on that however. Your proposal regarding mixed-firing works for me, but I will need to confirm with Carth before I say yay or nay on the matter.

[snip]

So, I have a idea regarding the construction of large liners and other ships that would fall under that area of the rules. Since we are paying only 1/4 cost for those hulls, why not have the yards that can accomidate them during construction and the like be subject to a similare rule. Im thinking that saying something to the effect of "ships build to civilian standards can be constructed at any yard that could build a warship of X% of the total tonnage of the civilian ship in question." would be workable. I know some of you have big liners planed and would like to give you a way to build them. Does this sound like a good solution?

[KWorld]

The problem I see with that is that is, as far as construction goes, the size of the shipyard and it;s slips and docks are the main hindrance to building larger vessels.  If a shipyard can build a 250m liner, it can build a 250m warship.  There are other, separate limitations (like gun size that can be manufactured, armor thickness, etc),, but .those aren't limits on how large the ship can be.


Oh, speaking of gun size limits, given that the date of design of the British 13.5"/45 is 1909 and the date of design of the US 14"/45 is 1910, can be we start building ships with guns larger than 12" in 1910?  :)

[snip]

technically yes, but the treaty prevents it.