Croatoan General Fleet

[Valles]

So, yeah. Ships go here.

[Valles]

Hand-class, Croatoa Frigate laid down 1905

Displacement:
   12,811 t light; 13,780 t standard; 15,000 t normal; 15,976 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (565.26 ft / 557.74 ft) x 65.62 ft x (26.25 / 27.59 ft)
   (172.29 m / 170.00 m) x 20.00 m  x (8.00 / 8.41 m)

Armament:
      6 - 9.84" / 250 mm 40.0 cal guns - 496.04lbs / 225.00kg shells, 180 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1905 Model
     3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      20 - 4.92" / 125 mm 50.0 cal guns - 66.14lbs / 30.00kg shells, 500 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1905 Model
     20 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      10 raised mounts
      10 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.55lbs / 0.25kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1905 Model
     10 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      10 double raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 4,305 lbs / 1,953 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.86" / 225 mm   362.53 ft / 110.50 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   195.18 ft / 59.49 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Upper:   2.95" / 75 mm   362.53 ft / 110.50 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.84" / 250 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      7.87" / 200 mm
   2nd:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.39" / 10 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 8.86" / 225 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 20,000 ihp / 14,920 Kw = 20.39 kts
   Range 5,067nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,195 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   677 - 881

Cost:
   £1.146 million / $4.582 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 922 tons, 6.1 %
      - Guns: 922 tons, 6.1 %
   Armour: 4,717 tons, 31.4 %
      - Belts: 3,087 tons, 20.6 %
      - Armament: 765 tons, 5.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 749 tons, 5.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 116 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 2,870 tons, 19.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,152 tons, 27.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,189 tons, 14.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 1.0 %
      - Hull below water: 50 tons
      - Hull above water: 50 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     17,742 lbs / 8,047 Kg = 37.2 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
   Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 14.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.63

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.547 / 0.554
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 38 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.89 ft / 0.88 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   15.00 %,  26.25 ft / 8.00 m,  24.61 ft / 7.50 m
      - Forward deck:   10.00 %,  24.61 ft / 7.50 m,  24.61 ft / 7.50 m
      - Aft deck:   55.00 %,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   20.00 %,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      18.55 ft / 5.66 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 126.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 25,459 Square feet or 2,365 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 116 lbs/sq ft or 567 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.52
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Valles]

Song, Croatoa Brig laid down 1905

Displacement:
   4,669 t light; 5,153 t standard; 6,000 t normal; 6,678 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (432.60 ft / 426.51 ft) x 49.21 ft x (21.33 / 23.07 ft)
   (131.86 m / 130.00 m) x 15.00 m  x (6.50 / 7.03 m)

Armament:
      6 - 6.89" / 175 mm 50.0 cal guns - 176.37lbs / 80.00kg shells, 240 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1905 Model
     3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      12 - 4.92" / 125 mm 50.0 cal guns - 66.14lbs / 30.00kg shells, 500 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1905 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      6 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.55lbs / 0.25kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1905 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      6 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 1,855 lbs / 842 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   281.50 ft / 85.80 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:   0.98" / 25 mm   144.98 ft / 44.19 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Upper:   1.97" / 50 mm   101.05 ft / 30.80 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
     Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.87" / 200 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      5.91" / 150 mm
   2nd:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.39" / 10 mm   0.39" / 10 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 0.98" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 5.91" / 150 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12,000 shp / 8,952 Kw = 20.41 kts
   Range 5,050nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,525 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   340 - 443

Cost:
   £0.451 million / $1.804 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 455 tons, 7.6 %
      - Guns: 455 tons, 7.6 %
   Armour: 1,390 tons, 23.2 %
      - Belts: 811 tons, 13.5 %
      - Armament: 334 tons, 5.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 203 tons, 3.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 42 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 990 tons, 16.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,793 tons, 29.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,331 tons, 22.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 0.7 %
      - Hull below water: 20 tons
      - Hull above water: 20 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7,395 lbs / 3,354 Kg = 45.2 x 6.9 " / 175 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 14.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.77
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.61

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.469 / 0.483
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.67 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.65 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.33 ft / 0.71 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   16.00 %,  21.33 ft / 6.50 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forward deck:   10.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Aft deck:   56.00 %,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   18.00 %,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      14.93 ft / 4.55 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 107.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 13,606 Square feet or 1,264 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 124 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 90 lbs/sq ft or 439 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.85
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

...On second thought, that's too small for what I want a 'brig' to be.

Let's go with this instead.

Song, Croatoa Brig laid down 1905

Displacement:
   8,108 t light; 8,672 t standard; 10,000 t normal; 11,062 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (465.41 ft / 459.32 ft) x 59.06 ft x (24.61 / 26.62 ft)
   (141.86 m / 140.00 m) x 18.00 m  x (7.50 / 8.11 m)

Armament:
      6 - 6.89" / 175 mm 50.0 cal guns - 176.37lbs / 80.00kg shells, 240 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1905 Model
     3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      12 - 4.92" / 125 mm 50.0 cal guns - 66.14lbs / 30.00kg shells, 500 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1905 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      6 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.55lbs / 0.25kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1905 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      6 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 1,855 lbs / 842 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.91" / 150 mm   335.30 ft / 102.20 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:   0.98" / 25 mm   123.98 ft / 37.79 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Upper:   1.97" / 50 mm   131.23 ft / 40.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
     Main Belt covers 112 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.87" / 200 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      5.91" / 150 mm
   2nd:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.39" / 10 mm   0.39" / 10 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 5.91" / 150 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 20,000 ihp / 14,920 Kw = 21.50 kts
   Range 7,290nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,390 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   499 - 650

Cost:
   £0.835 million / $3.338 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 455 tons, 4.6 %
      - Guns: 455 tons, 4.6 %
   Armour: 2,287 tons, 22.9 %
      - Belts: 1,308 tons, 13.1 %
      - Armament: 334 tons, 3.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 586 tons, 5.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 59 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 2,870 tons, 28.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,456 tons, 24.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,892 tons, 18.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 0.4 %
      - Hull below water: 20 tons
      - Hull above water: 20 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     8,372 lbs / 3,798 Kg = 51.2 x 6.9 " / 175 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.37
   Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 12.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.30
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.52

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.524 / 0.536
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.78 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.43 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.33 ft / 0.71 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   12.00 %,  21.33 ft / 6.50 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forward deck:   10.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Aft deck:   63.00 %,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      14.65 ft / 4.46 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 18,483 Square feet or 1,717 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 94 lbs/sq ft or 457 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.53
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Valles]

Wing, Croatoa Sloop laid down 1905

Displacement:
   4,927 t light; 5,155 t standard; 6,000 t normal; 6,676 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (432.31 ft / 426.51 ft) x 49.21 ft x (18.04 / 19.65 ft)
   (131.77 m / 130.00 m) x 15.00 m  x (5.50 / 5.99 m)

Armament:
      6 - 4.92" / 125 mm 50.0 cal guns - 63.09lbs / 28.62kg shells, 500 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1905 Model
     3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      8 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1905 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      8 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 383 lbs / 174 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      12 - 23.6" / 600 mm, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m torpedoes - 1.575 t each, 18.894 t total
   In 6 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   349.74 ft / 106.60 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:   0.98" / 25 mm     76.74 ft / 23.39 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
     Main Belt covers 126 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   2nd:   0.39" / 10 mm   0.39" / 10 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 0.98" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 3.94" / 100 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 24,000 shp / 17,904 Kw = 24.25 kts
   Range 5,050nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,520 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   340 - 443

Cost:
   £0.490 million / $1.961 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 152 tons, 2.5 %
      - Guns: 115 tons, 1.9 %
      - Weapons: 38 tons, 0.6 %
   Armour: 1,121 tons, 18.7 %
      - Belts: 762 tons, 12.7 %
      - Armament: 82 tons, 1.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 249 tons, 4.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 28 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 1,980 tons, 33.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,620 tons, 27.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,073 tons, 17.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 54 tons, 0.9 %
      - Hull below water: 15 tons
      - Hull above water: 15 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 24 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     5,295 lbs / 2,402 Kg = 88.9 x 4.9 " / 125 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.39
   Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 11.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.13
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.25

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.554 / 0.566
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.67 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.65 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.33 ft / 0.71 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   8.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forward deck:   15.00 %,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m,  19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Aft deck:   67.00 %,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   10.00 %,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      14.63 ft / 4.46 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 115.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 14,710 Square feet or 1,367 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 73 lbs/sq ft or 355 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.32
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Valles]

The intention would be a single 25mm deck, yes.

The intended theme is A-raisedX-Y, but by my understanding, the usage of triple or quadruple mounts, as well as superfiring, is forbidden in pre-game designs. If guns larger than 300mm were allowed, I'd've given very serious consideration to the use of singles on the BBs, depending on how the tonnage worked out, but they aren't so that entire line of thought is scotched. The more striking elements I have in mind for the secondary armaments aren't in play until the use of deck (+hoist) mounts come into play rather than casements.

And so on.

Given the handicap of their lacking any kind of proper battleship design in their starting inventory, and that I'm still not decided whether they'll consider destroyers worthwhile given their relatively short range, I'm not terribly bothered by any supposed 'winning' advantage in the armament layouts of my cruiser force, especially since Croatoa's conceived as a land power first and foremost.

Coming into things, I didn't want to repeat the Maori habit of Q turrets, nor, now, Nordmark's preference for designs balanced fore-to-aft. That left either inverting the IMHO quite ugly Generic Battleship AB-X layout, or wing turrets. I wanted to echo age of sail 'gun decks' with my secondary layouts, which wing turrets wouldn't've left room for, so I went with the former option.

Ideally, I'd prefer to add speed to the distinguishing characteristics between the classes - and I originally hadn't planned on having an intermediate size between the 225mm and 125mm armed classes at all - but the combination of treaty requirements and relatively crude engine technology is not exactly forgiving.

[Valles]

Certainly it isn't - but even just attempting to observe myself and my own thought patterns, it seems to be how I roll. I am intending to do various things to attempt to distinguish my dreadnought and cruiser classes, such that their fittings if not their layout will evolve over time.

But, frankly, the pregame phase, the 'starting ships', don't interest me that much. I'd happily spend the entire PP allowance for my fleet on additional production infrastructure if I thought it'd be allowed - or on additional army units, since Croatoa is intended to be a land power first and foremost. Quickly obsolescent ships with inefficient, overweight machinery aren't going to be of use long enough for me to invest that much mental energy in them, when one of the 'themes' I'm trying to go for with the Croatoan fleet is very long service lives.

[Valles]

...And by specializing in a field of interest to no one else, I neatly avoid hassling with rival spheres of influence. The nature of the setting does not escape me; I'm counting on it. I'm not planning on having my army fight any 'human' agency, PC or NPC, save as necessary to defend claims I doubt they'll be interested in. Nor do I have any particular interest in detailed resolution systems there - the development I'm planning there is purely for fluff purposes.

The only 'war' I'm intending to fight is one of xenocide.

[Jefgte]

...Land wars killed N3...

That's true !!!


Jef

[Valles]

So, let's see.

Across two and a half startup attempts now, I've been consistently trying to create a player state with local interests and internal markets and room for growth, modeled on Russia, or Brazil, or the US during the 19th century. I've explained this every way I could think of and at every turn.

Under the conditions of N4.5's setting, this will necessarily require an unusual degree of army deployment to provide needed firepower, etc. I have explicitly stated, again, quite consistently, that the goal of creating such a nation is that its interests should not require outside and foreign adventurism. I know perfectly well why N3 fell - I was right in the middle of it - and I have no intention of getting into a mess like that again.

And now I am being told that not picking fights and actually trying to build infrastructure, population, and resource bases without stealing and murdering to get them from other people is intended to be a losing strategy and that the Mods will explicitly enforce its being so.

Seeing this statement in the same thread as a joking complaint that I wasn't being imaginative enough - from the same person, yet! - would probably make me too mad to see straight if I had the energy to fight another fucking argument about the border between roleplaying, godmodding, and GMing again. Since I don't, I can only say that the irony is sickening.

[Valles]

Have I ever said word fucking one about forcing anyone else to adopt the courses I was interested in? Since the end of N3, have I ever so much as fucking hinted at a desire to involve anyone else in any war, land or naval?

I have not. If you attempt to claim I have, you are a liar. After the various imposition into my and others rights as players in the N4 set up, I was prepared to do so solely to throw an example back into the teeth of anyone who thought they could dictate what my 'character' thought, felt, or desired, but the thought did not appeal for its own sake and I said as much.

See, way back when, let's say N3 was also a D&D game, a big sandboxy thing where levels of inter-player interaction tended to vary considerably and there was no obligatory PC morality. I was playing an Evil character with a hate-on for another PC, because the character background I was handed seemed unlikely to lead to anything else. That game ended in much drama and characters stabbing each other, and, while I greatly enjoyed the mechanical aspects of the game and the worldbuilding and exploration and such, the parts that I actually had to roleplay weren't much fun. Because I'm not Evil, and I don't get my rocks off on it.

When we're setting up N4, I, and I think a number of other players, were going 'Hey, let's do another sandbox, with us being able to pick our backgrounds this time'. And then a different half of the player base went, 'Okay, everybody's going to be evil, so let's make it Lawful Evil and set up special Evil zones to do Evil things'. And eventually those of us who objected to that were shouted down for reasons that were never made quite clear to me, leading to bad blood as mentioned above.

And then Rock comes by and says, "Hey, how about setting up a completely new sandbox? And we can have all the races and kinds of characters we want, without needing special zones and things, because it's a new world and there's no established baggage!" And it works out that most of the world is an Underdark equivalent, but I turn to him and ask about doing a Good character who's clearing and tilling fields near one of the entrances, where none of the Underdark races can take the sunlight, and he says that that sounds like an interesting idea that'd add to the game.

Now, eventually, Rock has RL and has to leave things undone, and you and Snip step in to pick up where his work ended, and I'm all 'Yay, we get to play now!'

And then you come out and tell me that playing a Good Character is doing it wrong, and if I try to do that in the Underdark I'll get knifed in the back like a pussy like me deserves.

I certainly hope that my lack of amusement at this turn of events is understandable seen in that context.

...

My experience with rivalries in N3 wasn't as gentle as yours, and I am not going to fucking repeat that experience under any circumstances. I don't want a bloody superpower - certainly the US of the 1860s wasn't one, and Brazil never has been, and the eventual fate of Czarist Russia would seem to indicate that it wasn't either. There was just as much growth and expansion done in the Wild West and Siberia as there ever was in an overseas colony. It'd be blindingly obvious that a state would have points of vulnerability to a mechanical peer, especially given an extended, ill settled territory that'd require defense.

But I suppose that that'd make it a 'New World' nation, and thus it might gods forbid not be a fleet that happens to have a state attached.

[Valles]

If it were only that, I wouldn't.

Except, you know, the way the entire setting is designed, armies are also used for ground clearing and infrastructure expansion, and for sitting on ground that isn't good to anyone yet because it hasn't been cleared. I think I was fairly explicit about how those were the purpose of having one. As far as I can tell, you are essentially telling me that I cannot invest in infrastructure, in farms, in orchards, in new settlements, new mines, new factories. Has the reversal of the basic setting assumption linking ground forces to new human-habitable territory been another unannounced change?

For that matter, it's not like Croatoa would have even had a land border with any other state, on the map I recall.

[Valles]

In Rock's draft, the clearing troops were explicitly regular military being turned to a 'constructive' purpose. If that's no longer the case, then the Croatoan Mustered Militia and the Croatoan Forest Service aren't both showing up as 'army troops' and the overall military footprint gets much smaller.

Rock had us pick locations in a specific corner of the map because that way, it could be done by itself and there'd be less of a waiting period for 'image processing' before we could start. The 'seed' sites, as I understood it, could have been and were all over the planet; it was merely coincidence that that sector 'happened' to contain the player nations. Further, the reason I was happily on board with that placement was that that sector also included a major peninsula of the largest continental body, where I could plant Roanoke and its daughter cities. I was already openly planning to indicate the rest of that continent as the 'Croatoan hinterland', since every other state in the game-world had supposedly focused its attentions on archipelagos of various sizes, because of their greater coastline-to-area ratio and the faster economic return of terraforming them in one gulp.

[Logi]

What method do you suggest to prevent massive armies from possibly invading you or others (which you do not want) but which also allows massive armies to be built for invading?

Well I would prefer if the incentive for investment is greater than the incentive for land-grabbing via war. As I commented in the N4.5 comment thread, there is no reason to invest in your country rather than build a large army and invade if the time it takes for an investment to return it's own value is 75 years - far longer than any expected playtime.

I actually did the sim reports for the RRC back the days from 1913 to 1960. It was only in 1960 that I had a nation that was powered enough to content with nations like France, Rohan, and the ESC. Those sim reports were for pure investment with modest army and navy growths. This was with China, a country in N3 mechanics, RIPE for investment based play. In such conditions it was ofc far more profitable to simply wage war and make do in 5 maybe 10 years.

Naturally, my suggestion would be for it to be simply more profitable to invest in your country than to wage war. Not by making war more expensive, but by making investment returns more profitable. This would influence people to declare war only for strategical issues.

Now - the problem I have with your CSA and GC example is that neither of you were really looking to expand. Neither of your were pressed to grow stronger because you were both near parity. You don't need direct confrontations between superpowers in what amounted to a Cold War. But for example, in the case of the RRC, growth is necessary for survival and there is no parity with any power. You are simply put, behind. A simple example is when Rohan threatened to run their battleships up and down the coast of the RRC and pound the RRC into oblivion. When you know they can do that and you can do a damn thing about it is when there's a problem. Ditto for the Iberian, DKB, Russian, and MK threats. The way the N3 mechanics worked is that investment was such a bad idea in concrete numbers that the only option a player really had as the RRC was expansion via direct war. Which I did and you all hated. I actually would have much preferred expansion via Valle's method.

[Valles]

Sounds like the continent where I picked a small bay for the center of my nation... it reminded me of the giant bayou in my back yard, and I even planned for it to have Jubilees, like Mobile Bay.

That's probably a somewhat different question. All else being equal, I'd start next to whichever continent didn't have other PCs on it, since the only reasons for a concentrated start are OOC ones...

...but hashing that out doesn't go here, in a ship thread, or in the 'game philosophy' discussion that's taken it over.

[Valles]

I think I may have found a way around the 'But Not Too MUCH Hindsight, Now' demand and met my own standards for design lineage consistency.


Hand, Croatoa Ship of the Line laid down 1885

Displacement:
   13,256 t light; 13,875 t standard; 15,000 t normal; 15,900 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (331.36 ft / 328.08 ft) x 65.62 ft x (26.25 / 27.73 ft)
   (101.00 m / 100.00 m) x 20.00 m  x (8.00 / 8.45 m)

Armament:
      3 - 10.83" / 275 mm 40.0 cal guns - 661.39lbs / 300.00kg shells, 190 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
     3 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      20 - 3.94" / 100 mm 40.0 cal guns - 33.07lbs / 15.00kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1895 Model
     20 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      10 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      Weight of broadside 2,646 lbs / 1,200 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.84" / 250 mm   295.28 ft / 90.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm     32.81 ft / 10.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Upper:   2.95" / 75 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 138 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.87" / 200 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      9.84" / 250 mm
   2nd:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
   Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 0.98" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 9.84" / 250 mm, Aft 9.84" / 250 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 30,000 ihp / 22,380 Kw = 20.21 kts
   Range 7,500nm at 8.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,024 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   677 - 881

Cost:
   £1.457 million / $5.828 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 458 tons, 3.1 %
      - Guns: 458 tons, 3.1 %
   Armour: 3,541 tons, 23.6 %
      - Belts: 2,074 tons, 13.8 %
      - Armament: 490 tons, 3.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 720 tons, 4.8 %
      - Conning Towers: 258 tons, 1.7 %
   Machinery: 5,831 tons, 38.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,225 tons, 21.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,744 tons, 11.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 1.3 %
      - Hull below water: 100 tons
      - Hull above water: 50 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6,401 lbs / 2,903 Kg = 10.9 x 10.8 " / 275 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
   Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 14.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.81

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.929 / 0.932
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.11 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 87
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   10.00 %,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Forward deck:   15.00 %,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Aft deck:   60.00 %,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 139.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 21,292 Square feet or 1,978 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 117 lbs/sq ft or 569 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.51
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Laid down 3895, refitted and regunned 3905