Nova Francia Fleet

[Jefgte]

Differences between the first ACs & the Coastal BBs are not important so, Nova Francia choose to mixt the 2 concepts to have a 18kts well armed & protected AC. she could be classed now as an Escort Cruiser class.

That was an interresting idea but, increase the speed  from 18kts to 21 kts in 1902 cost about 3000t -  that's realy too much.

I return to the first concept: Armored Cruisers & Coastal BBs.

Jef

[KWorld]

Heh, I've noticed that speed is EXTREMELY expensive back in the early 1900s, especially for larger vessels.

[KWorld]

On your plan, I've got doubts that parts of it are legal by the sim rules: the 1908 Courbets and the 1909 BCs are definitely not legal under the sim's rules, and the 1905 & 1906 cruisers are also questionable. 

[Jefgte]

On your plan, I've got doubts that parts of it are legal by the sim rules: the 1908 Courbets and the 1909 BCs are definitely not legal under the sim's rules, and the 1905 & 1906 cruisers are also questionable. 

I'm not working on these parts of the Plan.

1908 is a light 20 000t Courbet
1905-1906 - 8 000t cruiser is similar to the Kleber class
1909 - BC 20 000t is a kind of HMS Invincible.

Jef

[KWorld]

The problem is that, under the rules, a ship can only have a max of 3 main gun turrets (AQY) supported by light guns, or 2 main gun turrets supported by secondaries in turrets.  Kleber had 4 main gun turrets (2 centerline, 2 wing), and Courbet had 6 main gun turrets.  To make a sim-rule legal Kleber, you'd need to replace the wing turrets with 138.6mms, I guess.  Or build Gloire instead, she's legal, since she has 2 main gun turrets with 4 secondary turrets and 4 casemated secondaries.

[Jefgte]

Cart answer about the Croiseur de combat - 8000t with 6T1x240

http://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,5781.30.html

And

Re: Nova Francia Fleet

« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2012, 05:09:38 PM »

Quote




Quote from: Jefgte on April 08, 2012, 04:58:26 PM

"a vessel with no more than two guns of 9"2/240mm"






OK, that was written because the British had a habit of mounting two guns of 9.2" on their armored cruisers... then loading them down with 7.5" or 6" guns which had a faster firing rate. They were still 'armored cruisers' even though they only mounted two 'armored cruiser' guns.
I put that layout specifically into the treaty for that reason, just like I made sure to put the French trademark battleship layout specifically in the battleship section.
I should probably clarify the wording of that section a bit, and will.

Your ship is OK- it mounts a 'main battery' of "no more than two guns of 9.2" or greater" and it also mounts a secondary battery of "an equal or greater number of secondary guns equal to or greater than 7.5"/190mm."

« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 05:13:05 PM by Carthaginian »

Jef  :)

[KWorld]

That's...... interesting.  It doesn't correspond, at all, to point 5 of the Startup Vessels rules.

5.) All ships are to  be of pre-dread type- with either a "twin main gun turrets"/"secondary battery"or "twin main gun > turrets"/"intermediate turrets" OR "AQY twins"/"light guns only" layouts. Ships must have main and end belts- AoN > armor is not allowed; upper belts are optional, but wise in some designs.

At least not unless you go through some mental gyrations where you say "main gun" ONLY means battleship-caliber main gun.  Hmmmm.  Now I have to ponder re-designing my ACs, since their designs were driven by the above rule.

[Carthaginian]

That's...... interesting.  It doesn't correspond, at all, to point 5 of the Startup Vessels rules.

5.) All ships are to  be of pre-dread type- with either a "twin main gun turrets"/"secondary battery"or "twin main gun > turrets"/"intermediate turrets" OR "AQY twins"/"light guns only" layouts. Ships must have main and end belts- AoN > armor is not allowed; upper belts are optional, but wise in some designs.

At least not unless you go through some mental gyrations where you say "main gun" ONLY means battleship-caliber main gun.  Hmmmm.  Now I have to ponder re-designing my ACs, since their designs were driven by the above rule.

There were many ships that had a layout similar to Jef's
The 'pre-drednought' rule is largely for battleships, and generally only means that smaller ships aren't to have four twins with two superfiring, etc. Since a lot of OTL armored cruisers had layouts similar to Jef's, I'm prone to allow those kinds of ships.
As they are more 'unique' and indeed a bit LESS efficient than a 'two twin' layout, I actually encourage these kinds of ships.

[KWorld]

OK.......  now I have to see if I can come up with a baby Von der Tann/Invincible AC.....

[Carthaginian]

OK.......  now I have to see if I can come up with a baby Von der Tann/Invincible AC.....

Those don't look like the armored cruisers.
They look like battle cruisers.

They are all big gun ships with twin turrets, etc.
Jef's ships look more like an armored cruiser.

KWorld, I appreciate you pointing out holes in the rules- but point out holes in the rules, please don't try to exploit them. There is a pretty clear definition of what a 'drednought' type ship is... and if it fits that general definition, then you can't build it till after the game starts.

[KWorld]

Hate to say it, but Kleber IS a Dreadnought-type ship, just laid down in 1897.  Look at her main armament: 8 x 164mm, all in twin turrets (A, X, wing turrets), her only other major guns are 4 casemated 100mm's.   She didn't set a pattern, so she wasn't famous, but she's an all-big gun cruiser, which doesn't fit the rules as stated.


I'm trying to figure out what are, and what aren't, the rules.  I was pointing out that various designs didn't seem to fit the rules as stated, then I'm pointed to commentary that allows the design despite the rules appearing to not allow them.  So what makes Kleber legal and Invincible not?  Can't be number of guns in turrets, they have the same number of guns in turrets.  If it's turbines, that's easily fixed, use Blucher with Von der Tann's layout.  Is it bore size?  Again, easily fixed: drop down to whatever the break point is.  My point is, I don't know why Kleber is legal, what makes it so.  Is it that no more than 6 main guns can bear at any target?  So far, that's the only answer I can come up with.


I'm not trying to be a pain in the backside, I'm trying to follow the rules, but the rules seem to have loopholes that I don't understand.  In trying to understand them, I'm pushing on them to see where they flex and where they don't.

[Carthaginian]

KWorld - link to the Kleber in question.
The only ship by that name was in the prion N-verse.

As to Real Life ships... Brooklyn, New York and several other ships had 'uniform main battery' guns. They were not, however 'dreadnought-type ships.' Now, I have to go to work, but stop and look at some historic ships. You can look to them for good examples as to what is a 'dreadnought-type' and what is not.

[Carthaginian]

OK, here's some reasoning:

1.) Helgoland is considered a dreadnought.
2.) Blücher has the same layout as Helgoland.
3.) Blücher is a dreadnought type ship.

If you can draw this kind of conclusion, then it's pretty obvious what I'm trying to do without spending my entire life writing infinitely detailed rules. Note that neither ship has turbines, BTW.

[KWorld]

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupleix_class_cruiser.  Kleber was one of a class of 3 French armored cruisers.  Since Jeftge is building a repeat French navy (as much as possible), I assumed he was building that class.  She's rather similar to a French version of USS Brooklyn, though armed with 6.5" guns vs 8" guns.

Which is apparently where I went wrong: he's building a ship with 6 single 240mm turrets, rather than the historical vessel.  Sheesh.

[Jefgte]

The Cruiser with 6T1x240 is realy 12500t (8000t was obtain with a LD in 1920)

With 15 000t limitation , We could perhaps have 6T2x240.

Is 15 000t limitation too high?
Did somebody SS a 15 000t cruisers, LD 1905 ?

Jef
-------


>:(  >:(  >:(
You are not "reglo" Jef, you ask to the Modos "Historical ships" in the rules ...
Without acceptation, you planed Kleber class with 4T2x164 - & just because you like this cruiser silhouette...
>:(  >:(  >:(