Asia Buildup

[Tanthalas]

I was considering Korea, or one of the Chinas but I need to talk to a Moderator about it... since I have this great idea that aparently wont work =P (well it would but uhm well its technical)

[Borys]

Ahoj!

I need to get ship names from somewhere, ain't I?  :P

You can always go with numbers ...
:)
Borys

[Valles]

My intention with this kind of timeline isn't so much an attempt to pin down specific names and dates, overall - as a believer in the 'Strong Butterfly', none of the individual names or timings I've mentioned correspond to real people - as to lay out, mmm, a broad initial sketch of how the history of the area fits together internationally. To create, if you will, a way for people to interact with their history of the area that doesn't rely on OTL.

Keywords here are 'broad' and 'initial' - if there's something someone doesn't like that only affects their nation, it will be changed to suit them. If it's more general, an interaction, then it's just as up for discussion and counteraction as if we were working blind. If there's something that isn't said, then riffing in the gaps won't even take the trivial effort of asking for a change.

Since directly asking hadn't produced any guidance on what sort of 'end point' was desired for Indochina, I was attempting to keep things in that area more-or-less on the same course as historically shown, save for laying down the groundwork of a history of large unified states or empires such as seen in the modern game era.

[PyscoWard]

 Sorry I have been off the board for so long end up in the hospital for a while .

So do I still have the Philippines or what ?

[Valles]

The Philippines were mod-ruled as being 'colonial territory' rather than 'civilized territory', on the theory that their access to adjacent territory suitable for expansion was too great to comply with the directive that all empires must either be created at great risk and the expense of other players, or be geographically remote from their homeland.

Accordingly, I currently have you penciled in as controlling one of the four successor states competing to become 'The One True China' in the wake of the collapse of the last unified Dynasty, specifically the southernmost one, Zhu, which is a kind of aqua color on the map.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/asia-valles-v10.png

[Tanthalas]

Sorry I have been off the board for so long end up in the hospital for a while .

So do I still have the Philippines or what ?

Hospitals suck, hope your fealing better

[PyscoWard]

While I'm trying to work on the first third of my timeline proposal - 300-800CE - some questions for the other players in the area:

Borys, is Vladivostok a satisfactory/intended name, or do you have another in mind? What sort of 'feel' do you have in mind - displacement of former natives by imported Slavs, a thin veneer of political control over a large mass of 'locals', a confusing muddle in the middle, a hybrid state like Austria-Hungary, or some other fill-in-the-blank?

P3D, is Indochina a monolith of a particular culture, an empire with distinct substates, or what? How old do you picture the state being, and its antecedents? What does it call itself? Is it Thai, Vietnamese, or something else altogether? Is it at a high point in its history, or recovering from a low ebb? Are there any cultural traits and historical relationships you want to work into it?

Walter, Psychoward, which 'Chinas' do you have in mind, and likewise, what do you have in mind for their societal attitudes? I'm intending that N4's China spent more time fragmented than OTL's, but there would still be that strong tradition of unification informing their attitudes - but how do you see these states 'dealing' with their relationship to that situation? And to each other!

I see my part of china as more like historical Southern China we see our part as the home of Chinese culture .
  We are the home of Confucius and his teaching  We see the rest of China as breack away parts of our nation .

[Walter]

Good Sir, Confucius and his teachings are just too confusing. :D

[TexanCowboy]

I prefer the teachings of Manzo and his twelve Romanian disciples.  ;D

[Walter]

I prefer the teachings of Manzo and his twelve Romanian disciples.  ;D

His teachings would be more like telling the tales of Manzo and the Seven Dwarves Sky Giants...

[Walter]

Looking at the map, it does not look like Wei has much of a coast compared to others. Also more than half of it is on the Bohai Sea which, as it is now, is completely controlled by Korea on the current map. So I'm not too keen regarding the fact that the Shangdong Peninusula is Korean. Korea has plenty of coastline already.

[Valles]

I suspect that Vladivostok could contest control of the Bohai Sea quite handily - or at least they should be able to, if 'Player Nations' are supposed to have roughly equal resources. Presumably, so would . Only having two or three real ports to protect should, if anything, simplify defense and free a greater proportion of that strength for offensive action, and leads to very different play experiences. Inasfar as it's a 'disadvantage', it's one well within the bounds of player choices to deal with. Keeping Shangdong in Korean hands plays well, in my mind, for two reasons, one cultural - Korea has historically been very Confucian, and 'Master Kung' is supposed to've been from that area - and one practical, namely that taking it away would, by my eyeball count, remove three of the current version's twenty-three provinces. Wei, in contrast and by the same count, already has twenty-four. Shuffling other sections out of Wei would be perfectly possible, but making the same ones up for Korea would be kind of-

...hmmm.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/asia-valles-v11.png

Roughly what I'm seeing as having lead to this is that around the middle of the sixteenth century, one of the endlessly restive daimyo serving the then-Shogun of Japan - let's say his personal name was Nobuo - happened to establish contact with European traders entering the area for the first time. Being a far-sighted fellow, a young man, and as ambitious as Satan himself, this lord of the Tokugawa spent every political favor he had to win for his clan the exclusive right to trade with the Western Barbarians... and then sent a mission to Europe to hire and bring back expert gunsmiths, shipbuilders, and navigators.

Since said mission 'happened' to include a couple dozen of the very prettiest and most charming young eligible maidens in his domains, it worked.

Knowing that, even with superior technology, he lacked the immediate force to successfully overthrow and replace the existing Shogunate, Tokugawa Nobuo instead sent what another region and era would have called filibustering expeditions to the Ryukyus and to Ezochi (Hokkaido) and set up native puppet regimes whose power depended on weapons he provided, and who could provide money, manpower, and most importantly secrecy while he built an army of his own.

By 1569, after a series of brutal battles, he laid siege to Kyoto and, taking the city, installed himself as Shogun.

Of course, even after he smashed those daimyo who fought his accession directly, Nobuo had the problem that most of his nominal vassals were just waiting for an opportunity to slip the dagger in... And solved it by loaning them money to buy 'swords' - to re-equip their armies - and pointing them at another target: Korea.

When the dust settled, Korea had been conquered, many of his domestic political enemies had been badly bled, and every daimyo in Japan was as deeply in Tokugawa's debt as the kings of Ryuku and Ezochi. Tokugawa Nobuo spent the rest of his life happily engaged in directing his Ezochi puppets in their expansion into and civilization of eastern Siberia.

Unfortunately, his son and grandson were less able men, and lost Siberia and Korea to invading Russians and the rebellion of their hand-appointed governor, respectively.

By the end of the eighteenth century, Korea, under the rule of kings who still spoke Japanese in private and at court, was enough of a military power to take the Shangdong peninsula away from a Chinese dynasty on its last legs and to annex a large portion of Kyushu after a major peasant rebellion. When the state of Wei established itself after the breakup of last Dynasty, taking back Shangdong was what established it as a 'significant player'...

[Walter]

Korea has historically been very Confucian, and 'Master Kung' is supposed to've been from that area

From what I saw on the net, OTL Confucian's home, Temple and last resting place is nowhere on or near the peninsula but very far inland. Also, with PsycoWard's "We are the home of Confucius and his teaching" bit, I believe he called dibs on Confucius so it is most likely that Qufu has absolutely nothing to do with Confucius as he was born somewhere in the south and not in the State of Lu.

and one practical, namely that taking it away would, by my eyeball count, remove three of the current version's twenty-three provinces.

It's not a matter of how many provinces there are. Korea will have a military and economic strength of 'X' whether it has 20 provinces or 23 provinces.

In my eyes, with such complete control of Korea over the Bohai Sea, there won't be any major naval ports along the Bohai Sea, leaving only a small strip of coast to the south, but that, too, would be fairly limited due to the proximity to Wu. That strategic situation would probably result in a Wei navy with 10-15 sloops and with a few small ports with the rest of the money to build the military forces spent on army stuff, resulting in a tiny navy and a huge army.



... and to think that I was only looking for a location to put an Alcatraz-type prison somewhere. :D

[Valles]

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/asia-valles-v12.png

Er, Wiki's wrong, then? I'd taken PsycoWard's statement as an indication of the political and social views of Zhu - that is, that it would be felt by Zhu that they and they alone held to 'true Orthodoxy', and that the variant systems practiced in other nations were inferior imitations.

These viewpoints need not be factually accurate to hold social influence, and indeed I hadn't taken them as such.

Anyway. I don't believe that Korea's 'alpha draft' layout with Shangdong included would have made the Bohai 'theirs' anymore than holding Gibralter and Suez made the Mediterranean a British pond - but since Wei has a player and Korea doesn't, I suppose it's your call.

[Ithekro]

I am envisioning a Korea with a lot of small flat bottomed ironclads, Some ocean going ironclads and steam frigates to defend ships going to and from Japan.  I'm imagining some slow and very heavily armed steam ships of the line and/or iron-steel hulled battleships....slow, but with lots of guns and thick armor.

Probably have ships that are overbuilt (robust designs over sleek designs)  They probably won't win races, but they will be tough to crack....with guns anyway.  Torpedoes are new and I doubt anyone can build to stop them yet.

Not sure if they will have turrets.  I'm pretty sure they won't like the open barbette idea and would favor numbers of guns verses size of guns, unless the armor of the enemy dictates that bigger guns are needed (which is likely true).

I'm imagining mostly muzzle loaders with a few new breech loader on the most modern ships.

I am also imagining everything being built locally (if that seems viable).

I however also don't imaging the army as being all that great.  Some good units to defend the homeland and maybe one or two in Japan to keep the Japanese away, but most of the rest is average to greenish in quality (just like in the 1590s).  The navy is the powerful force (and perhaps a Marine force that is high quality) while the Army is just sort of there.  If invaded they Army could hold...eventually...but without effort I don't imagine them being much for long term offensive operations...just good for holding places the Navy and Marines take.



What needs to be done for the backstory and other things?
(My prefered style of play is scripted...or at least the idea of, I am willing to lose X-Y and Z ships in an engagement with your X-Y and Z ships....it can be gamed out to have variable results.  Land warfare usually doesn't interest me, so I generally go for entirely scripted events with fluff news and other stories added to make it interesting.  (this was more or less how the first war in Navalism was fought, by agreement between the all players directly involved and GM).