Asia Buildup

[Guinness]

This is the thread for Discussing Asia

[Guinness]

Map of Asia to work from:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm18/mmichael453/Navalism%204/asia-guinness-v1.png

[Valles]

From the other thread:

Ahoj!
1 - Manchuria + Primorskiy Kray (if possible)
2 - New Zealand (that's broadly understood Asia, folks!)
3 - Persia / Phillipines

EDITED TO ADD Maritime Province to Machuria
Borys

...Oh, that's gonna make for an interesting early game, Borys. I'm up for it, though.

Culturally, do you have in mind a Mongolian/Jurchen, a Slavic, or a 'Sinicized' society?

See, something I've had in mind historically speaking has been the idea that, rather than allying with the Chinese Tang Dynasty in the 7th Century, the kingdom of Silla managed to bring in the state of Yamato by backing one side in a civil war that was going on there. The Japanese, of course, would have made a much less impressive ally than the Chinese, so Goguryeo survives several decades longer than it managed to historically - only finally falling sometime around 700CE - but aren't in a position to make territorial claims to the lion's share of Goguryeo the way the Tang did OTL, thus leaving 'Korea' with a somewhat larger geographical extent than we think of it as having today, with the (differently named) cities on the sites of Shenyang, Changchun, and Vladivostok all being fairly near the border. 'Japan' applied as I hope to, would include Kyushu, Shikoku, Honshu, and the Ryukyus, but exclude Hokkaido. 'Ezochi', comprising Sakhalin, Hokkaido, and the Kurils, would be a culturally and ethnically Ainu but distinctly civilized kingdom - having picked the habit up relatively early from the Japanese and Chinese. All three would be, in theory, close allies contributing funds and personnel to a combined military under the control of a council of their kings...

...Although, in practice, the Shogun would be the 'real' power, with the kings of Ezochi, Japan, and Korea jumping whenever he said frog. Hence 'Sandeii no Bakufu' - 'Shogunate to Three Thrones'.

Ahoj!

Culturally, do you have in mind a Mongolian/Jurchen, a Slavic, or a 'Sinicized' society?

I'm undecided as to the first two, the third is right out.
Borys

[Guinness]

It deserves note that we haven't arrived at an official Japan+whatever player yet. Generally, we've been awarding first, second, etc. choice by player "seniority", but in the case of Japan as far as I'm concerned, it's players of equal seniority asking for it. So we'll need to hash that out.

[Guinness]

What we're working with so far:

Asia
Valles   Japan(ish)*
PyscoWard Philippines with part of Mainland China
P3D Indochina
Borys N. China/Manchuria/Parts of Siberia

* Still working out Japan

[Valles]

My own... well, second or third, since I'd missed/forgotten people... pass looks like this:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/asia-valles-v04.png

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I have three quibles with the red blob :) on the map:
1 - reaches too far west for my taste - at least 3 "pieces" too many, the ones on the edge; and I'm not sure I'd want Hobei Province.
2 - I'm a bit surprised at the lack of Liaotung Peninsula ...
3 - I'd like the northern border to follow the Amur - the "piece" to the NW of the Maritime Province - North is to the north of the river. But I can live with it ...
Borys

[Valles]

1. Fixed.

2. I wanted to apply an alteration to the historical borders of Korea to emphasize the divergence there, and that it happened very early. 'Vladivostok' and the territory roughly west of it to the northern tip of Liaotung would, I'd want to say, be territory that had 'traditionally' been Korean but was conquered when your state was set up.

3. Fixed.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/asia-valles-v05.png

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Lovely - I'll keep Hobei then.
Lack of Liaotung messes up with OTL Manchu history and background a lot - I'll have to think it over.
Who lives there - Koreans or Han?

If this map gives me the mouth of the Liao River (it may be the border) - with port of Yingkou - then we can consider Manchuria ready for play.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liao_He
Borys

[Valles]

Ahoj!
Lovely - I'll keep Hobei then.
Lack of Liaotung messes up with OTL Manchu history and background a lot - I'll have to think it over.
Who lives there - Koreans or Han?

The peninsula, southeastern Jilin, the very southern tip of Heilongjiang - Dongning County, effectively - and the Vladivostok area would be ethnically Korean or at least mixed, unless efforts had been made to specifically displace the populace when they were 'conquered'. The first time that Korea was unified, it was because one of the three kingdoms feuding over the peninsula allied with Tang China; there's a theory among South Korean hardline nationalists (reported though not necessarily agreed with by the South Korean born professor who gave my history of Korea class) that this was in some way a 'betrayal' of Korea as a whole, because much of the territory that belonged to the northernmost of the three eventually ended up in Chinese hands, creating the seventh-century origins of the border we know today.

The essential divergence I have in mind is that, rather than allying with the Chinese, Silla allied with the Japanese Yamato kingdom. Mostly this would be an alliance in name only - Yamato-era Japan wasn't what you'd call an organized centralized power - but as a matter of hiring mercenaries at relative bargain prices, still militarily significant.

Unification took much longer in this timeline, but still happened... and without the northeastern border moving nearly as much.

At least until your folks showed up in, what, the eighteenth century or so? Or, if previously present, made the territorial gains in question about the same time?

If this map gives me the mouth of the Liao River (it may be the border) - with port of Yingkou - then we can consider Manchuria ready for play.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liao_He

It looks like the Liao is the border, yes. Real-world Yingkou seems to be east of its mouth, but from what I can tell it's only coincidentally so - there's nothing structural about the area making it a better harbor if put there rather than to the west of the mouth.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
IMO Liatung could had been taken from the Koreans by - if we skip the Tang, by:
- the Kitans Xthcentury
- the Dzurdzhens (Jurchens) XIth century
- the Mongols XIIth or XIIIth century
- the Ming - XIVth century
and finally
- the Manchus XVIIth century :)

I'll mull over the lack of Liaotung - IMO it butterflies away the conquest of China by the Manchus, so it opens up an interesting POD.

Yup - Yingkou will be on the NW bank then.
Maybe it's a new settlement, intruding into a previous no-man's-land between the Koreans and Chinese? Founded by the new Slavic overlords of the Manchu?
Borys

[P3D]

I don't see any reason why Japan should have either Taiwan or Korea.

[Valles]

Ahoj!
IMO Liatung could had been taken from the Koreans by - if we skip the Tang, by:
- the Kitans Xthcentury
- the Dzurdzhens (Jurchens) XIth century
- the Mongols XIIth or XIIIth century
- the Ming - XIVth century
and finally
- the Manchus XVIIth century :)

It certainly could have! As could the other territories 'inland'. Probably they were, once or twice, and were reclaimed. Having it be Korean in the 'modern' era is, as noted, in large part a deliberate thumbing of the nose at the idea of sticking closely to OTL.

I'll mull over the lack of Liaotung - IMO it butterflies away the conquest of China by the Manchus, so it opens up an interesting POD.

Yup - Yingkou will be on the NW bank then.
Maybe it's a new settlement, intruding into a previous no-man's-land between the Koreans and Chinese? Founded by the new Slavic overlords of the Manchu?

If Walter gets the nod for Japan and I end up in China, I'd be playing them as ruled by a native Han dynasty rather than the historical Manchu one, so having that be part of the departure process is entirely desirable.

I'd been figuring that the port would be new-built, yeah. The one in our world only dates from the early nineteenth century anyway, at least as a significant city.

I don't see any reason why Japan should have either Taiwan or Korea.

And I don't see any reason why it shouldn't.

[Borys]

I don't see any reason why Japan should have either Taiwan or Korea.

And I don't see any reason why it shouldn't.

"Not having Having it be Japanese Korean in the 'modern' era is, as noted, in large part a deliberate thumbing of the nose at the idea of sticking closely to OTL.
:D
Borys

[Valles]

*laugh* Point!^_^ In my own defense, I'd intended the context of its acquisition as being very different, but that, at least, is an argument I can take seriously.