Shaft Horsepower for 1909 turbines

[Earl822]

I reckon the max 12000Hp a shaft is too low, especially for the purposes of constructing Armoured Cruisers. I base my assersions on historical precedence as even the Minotaurs, which were built with triple expansion engines had 23000hp over 2 shafts, and the Lion class, laid down in 1909, had around 70000Hp over 4 shafts.

The British didn't have any advanced tech, they had the same Parsons turbines as most other nations of the period. As it stands most of us are gonna be unable to get ships any faster than those built pre 1905, until we can achieve 1912 tech in 1909.

A minimal increase up to 15000HP a shaft would allow some increase in speed over existing ships, I'd actually propose a larger increase.
As the UKA player, I supplied 30-15000Hp turbines to France, and provided the engines for the Superliners, which have nearly 30000Hp a shaft.

While I don't claim any precedence to built over powered turbines, I am stating that I reckon that what is stated as the maximum shaft shp is too low with both historical precidence, and what has come before.

[P3D]

I can only repeat myself: no.

If they'd be allowed larger SHPs we would see 27kts battleships (not battlecruisers) in 1911. Limiting shaft HP is the best way.

The superliner's turboelectric propulsion is failing to meet the expectations. The salt causes unexpected corrosive problems with the wiring and the insulation. The salty vapors shorted out the large motors frequently when they were operated at their NOMINAL power, and it required decreasing the operating voltage.

Also the high power, combined with the unprecedented hull size produces excessive vibrations when the ship sails over 23 knots. Overall, those huge liners are a big failure, but this is kept under the wraps.

[Earl822]

Now that I don't agree with, the superliners are like all pre 1905 designs, subject to a Grandfather Clause, they can run at their design speed. I don't want Battleships, I want Cruisers that have a decent chance of running at a speed that can keep them safe.

I accept that we must be careful, but we aren't in the real world here, we are in the N-verse, things are, to be frank, minorly wacky. I don't accept that even though things were capable in the real World, we are not in theory allowed to mirror them here.

And for your information, short of spending upward of 30BP on a single ship, something impossible under the old rules, though more possible here, you can't get a viable Battleship that can run at 27knots.

[P3D]

There is no limit on reciprocal engine SHP, only turbines.

And what historical cruiser design you cannot build with limiting ship power to 48000SHP, according to the rules? I cannot find a single one.

Moreover, specifically, what threats are there that a 48000SHP 27kts cruiser has no decent chance running away from?

[maddox]

The superliners Magnificent and Mercurius. 
Sisterships in all respects have show an disturbing tendecity to be real yard queens.

Yes, they can dash at 26 kts. Driving the enginering corps to madness, overworks the black gang,  hugely annoys the passengers by the noise, vibrations and huge clouds of coalsmoke from the 4 stacks. And most of the time resulting in mechanical or human casulties.

When not exiding the 21 kts these ships are well liked by crew and passengers. (the 12000 shaftHP limit)

The feedback of the Brazil trips of Magnificent in 1904 and 1905 did give enough "non newspaper" publicity to be negative for any turbine proposal over 12000 HP by Parsons, and in effect by any other potential manufactorer.
It is so bad, that the 30 turbine 15000 HP units France  ordered are being downgraded to 12000 HP, to enhance reliability.

[Ithekro]

I might note that the British Armored cruisers also didn't make over 23 knots in general even with 27,000 -30,000 H.P. four cylinder triple expansion engines (two sets). (Minotaur and Drake classes respectfully).  Good Hope class cruiser King Alfred had a best recorded speed of 25.1 knots in 1907 for one hour...mean speed of 24.8 knots for 8 hours.  However the Minotaurs notes suggest they do better at 21 knots.

French Armored Cruisers are using three shafts on up to 36,000 H.P., but still only getting up to 23 knots.

1906 Blucher has three shafts at 32,000 HP, and can do 24.5 knots.

Lions, Tigers, and Kongos will be a different problem come 1909 with their 70,000 H.P. 28 knot vessels on four screws.

[maddox]

As demonstrated with Speedy Gonzales, if you want speed, it is perfectly possible. 

Just build Fisherite -ous Light Large outrages. Just don't expect a balanced ship.

[Desertfox]

A question on turbines.

1895 Baseline(0): Complex Reciprocating Engines, Engine Year 1900
1902 Advanced (+1): Engine year 1905, Max. Turbine power 5000HP/Shaft,
        Direct-drive Turbines
1905 Cutting Edge (+3) Engine year 1909, Max. Turbine power 12000HP/Shaft
1909: Engine year 1912, Max. Turbine power 18000HP/Shaft
1913: Engine year 1916, Max. Turbine power 25000HP/Shaft
1917: Engine year 1920, unlimited power/shaft
1922: Engine year 1925
1927: Engine year 1930

If I understand correctly you cant research 1912 turbines untill 1909 which means you wont get them untill 1911, so whats the point of it then? As you might as well dont do anything and just wait a year. And since you cant get 1912 turbines untill 1911, you have to lay down ships in 1911 with 1909 turbines? So basiclly any ship laid down in 1904 will be as good as any one laid down in 1911?

[Ithekro]

Basic assumtion here is that ships laid down in 1910 and 1911 would have engine from those years rather than 1909 or 1912.  If the tech is there for 1912 engines in 1911 then you've have a slight jump on people in turbines.

Are we assuming that if one has turbines then they might develop at the normal SS rate after the year the engine is suppose to be from (if one has 1909 engine, and it is 1909, one would have 1910 engines in 1910, correct?  But is one has 1909 engines and it is 1907 you still have 1909 engines in 1908.)  The shaft horsepower limit might be fixed as is, or go up increamentally between years if done at the normal pace rather than having engines advanced for their time?

Estimated yearly increase in horsepower per shaft at normal rates with correct years:
1905-1909 = +1,750HP/shaft/year
1909-1912 = +2,000HP/shaft/year
1912-1916 = +1,750HP/shaft/year
1916-1920 = +1,750HP/shaft/year?

[Desertfox]

So I still dont get why we have that tech since a year wont make much difference. I dont see why anyone would research it to gain a single year.

[P3D]

Why to research? Because if you do not, then you are stuck with engine year 1909 in all your designs.

[Ithekro]

So base assumtion is then if you have a 1922 lay down date and haven't researched 1912 turbine engines, you have 1909 turbines engine?

[Borys]

Ahoj!
That's exactly how I understood it.

Borys

[P3D]

Exactlee. TNSTAAFL (There's no such thing as a free lunch).

[Desertfox]

So since you cant get 1912 turbines untill 1911 that means your stuck with 1909 turbines for your 1910 ships (and maybe even 1911 ones)?