Which, if either, would you choose and why?

[Sachmle]

SMS Derfflinger, Deutsche Reich Panzerkreuzer laid down 1921

Displacement:
   9,000 t light; 9,464 t standard; 10,710 t normal; 11,707 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.73 ft / 551.18 ft x 62.34 ft x 20.51 ft (normal load)
   170.00 m / 168.00 m x 19.00 m  x 6.25 m

Armament:
      8 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (4x2 guns), 275.58lbs / 125.00kg shells, 1921 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1921 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1921 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 2,249 lbs / 1,020 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 199
   8 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   366.63 ft / 111.75 m   12.30 ft / 3.75 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.77" / 45 mm      3.15" / 80 mm
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.38" / 35 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 74,000 shp / 55,204 Kw = 30.18 kts
   Range 8,500nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,242 tons

Complement:
   526 - 684

Cost:
   £2.325 million / $9.301 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 288 tons, 2.7 %
   Armour: 1,736 tons, 16.2 %
      - Belts: 746 tons, 7.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 349 tons, 3.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 601 tons, 5.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 41 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 2,548 tons, 23.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,077 tons, 38.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,710 tons, 16.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 3.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     11,965 lbs / 5,427 Kg = 42.3 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 15.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 63 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.532
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.84 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.50 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Stern:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.47 ft / 6.24 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 23,579 Square feet or 2,191 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 109 lbs/sq ft or 533 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.55
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent


SMS Blücher, Deutsche Reich Großes Kreuzer laid down 1921

Displacement:
   11,000 t light; 11,436 t standard; 12,135 t normal; 12,694 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.73 ft / 551.18 ft x 71.00 ft x 21.16 ft (normal load)
   170.00 m / 168.00 m x 21.64 m  x 6.45 m

Armament:
      8 - 8.27" / 210 mm guns (4x2 guns), 275.58lbs / 125.00kg shells, 1921 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1921 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1921 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 2,293 lbs / 1,040 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.91" / 150 mm   358.27 ft / 109.20 m   13.94 ft / 4.25 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   192.91 ft / 58.80 m   10.01 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.09" / 180 mm   3.15" / 80 mm      6.30" / 160 mm
   2nd:   1.57" / 40 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 7.09" / 180 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 30.10 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,257 tons

Complement:
   577 - 751

Cost:
   £2.588 million / $10.353 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 293 tons, 2.4 %
   Armour: 2,921 tons, 24.1 %
      - Belts: 1,398 tons, 11.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 674 tons, 5.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 769 tons, 6.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 81 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 2,755 tons, 22.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,681 tons, 38.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,135 tons, 9.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15,095 lbs / 6,847 Kg = 53.4 x 8.3 " / 210 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
   Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 15.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.513
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.76 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.50 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Forecastle (21 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Stern:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.51 ft / 6.25 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,383 Square feet or 2,451 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 118 lbs/sq ft or 576 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.52
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Jefgte]

It's easy to choose,

A mixture of them  :D  :D  :D

4T2x210
2x88
B120
T150
D35
30kts
8500nm@12kts
Derfflinger look


Jef  ;)

[mentat]

  Blucher is a tough nut - but range will be bit light for many

Really depends on Theatre of Ops - Blucher as is  for Baltic or Med - otherwise need to increase bunkerage

[Guinness]

How about the first's bunkerage and other attributes on the second hull?

[P3D]

If I am forced to purchase a 8" gunned ship, the first one.

[Sachmle]

If I am forced to purchase a 8" gunned ship, the first one.

How about a 9.45" gunned ship?

SMS Blücher, Deutsche Reich Großes Kreuzer laid down 1921

Displacement:
   11,000 t light; 11,580 t standard; 12,810 t normal; 13,794 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.73 ft / 551.18 ft x 71.00 ft x 22.28 ft (normal load)
   170.00 m / 168.00 m x 21.64 m  x 6.79 m

Armament:
      9 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (3x3 guns), 418.88lbs / 190.00kg shells, 1921 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1921 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1921 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 3,859 lbs / 1,750 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.71" / 145 mm   358.27 ft / 109.20 m   13.94 ft / 4.25 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   192.91 ft / 58.80 m   10.01 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6.10" / 155 mm   2.95" / 75 mm      5.71" / 145 mm
   2nd:   1.57" / 40 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 6.10" / 155 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 61,663 shp / 46,000 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 7,500nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,213 tons

Complement:
   601 - 782

Cost:
   £2.774 million / $11.095 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 485 tons, 3.8 %
   Armour: 2,849 tons, 22.2 %
      - Belts: 1,357 tons, 10.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 651 tons, 5.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 770 tons, 6.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 72 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 2,123 tons, 16.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,193 tons, 40.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,810 tons, 14.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     16,796 lbs / 7,619 Kg = 39.8 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 15.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 63 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.18

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.514
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.76 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.50 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Forecastle (21 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Stern:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.51 ft / 6.25 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,417 Square feet or 2,454 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 129 lbs/sq ft or 631 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.71
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[ctwaterman]

I like the last design except for one thing she is large enough to need defense against TB and DD.   So she probably needs to get just a little bit bigger and add say 4 secondary guns per side something in a 4" to 5" gun.

I think I had a similar design somewhere on around 13K tons with a bunch of 127mm/L51 guns.

Charles

[Jefgte]

With the 240, add 8x120 vs DDs
Your ship is now slower- just 28kts


Jef

[Sachmle]

Your ship is now slower- just 28kts


Jef

Something had to give.

[P3D]

That nine guns are adequate against destroyers, but not against (M)TBs - add a few more 8.8s instead.
I prefer a pure AoN armor scheme for cruisers. And cut main belt height to ~3m - they are to protect vitals, not buoyancy. So no end belt.
30kts should not cost you that much, you can increase draught a bit more.
And they would be perfect counter to whatever 8" cruisers Nobody wants to build for Orange.

[Sachmle]

SMS Blücher, Deutsche Reich Großes Kreuzer laid down 1921

Displacement:
   11,000 t light; 11,610 t standard; 12,840 t normal; 13,824 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.73 ft / 551.18 ft x 71.00 ft x 22.47 ft (normal load)
   170.00 m / 168.00 m x 21.64 m  x 6.85 m

Armament:
      9 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (3x3 guns), 418.88lbs / 190.00kg shells, 1921 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1921 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1921 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1921 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4,141 lbs / 1,878 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.72" / 120 mm   382.22 ft / 116.50 m   10.01 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.12" / 130 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   2nd:   1.57" / 40 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 4.72" / 120 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 83,110 shp / 62,000 Kw = 30.14 kts
   Range 7,500nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,215 tons

Complement:
   603 - 784

Cost:
   £3.112 million / $12.450 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 520 tons, 4.1 %
   Armour: 2,072 tons, 16.1 %
      - Belts: 761 tons, 5.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 488 tons, 3.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 767 tons, 6.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 56 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 2,862 tons, 22.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,195 tons, 40.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,840 tons, 14.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     12,711 lbs / 5,766 Kg = 30.1 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 15.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.511
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.76 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.01 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.25 ft / 8.00 m
      - Forecastle (21 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Stern:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.24 ft / 6.17 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 143.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,337 Square feet or 2,447 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 633 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.74
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Jefgte]

This one is well balanced.


Jef

[mentat]

  quite concur  ;D

[snip]

I like it. Seems like a good counter to some of the NS cruisers. Guess I need to rethink some of my plans as well...

[Desertfox]

Very similar to the NS Interceptor class, course the Interceptors are better looking...