Esc cruser design

[ledeper]

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1921

Displacement:
   12.607 t light; 13.093 t standard; 14.015 t normal; 14.752 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   603,99 ft / 600,39 ft x 75,46 ft x 24,61 ft (normal load)
   184,10 m / 183,00 m x 23,00 m  x 7,50 m

Armament:
      8 - 7,87" / 200 mm guns (4x2 guns), 244,10lbs / 110,72kg shells, 1921 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 3,94" / 100 mm guns (6x2 guns), 30,51lbs / 13,84kg shells, 1921 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1921 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 2.350 lbs / 1.066 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5,91" / 150 mm   390,26 ft / 118,95 m   19,82 ft / 6,04 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5,91" / 150 mm   2,76" / 70 mm      5,91" / 150 mm
   2nd:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2,76" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 5,91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 91.052 shp / 67.925 Kw = 31,00 kts
   Range 4.500nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1.659 tons

Complement:
   643 - 837

Cost:
   £2,869 million / $11,475 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 294 tons, 2,1 %
   Armour: 3.665 tons, 26,1 %
      - Belts: 1.932 tons, 13,8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 197 tons, 1,4 %
      - Armour Deck: 1.462 tons, 10,4 %
      - Conning Tower: 74 tons, 0,5 %
   Machinery: 3.135 tons, 22,4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4.914 tons, 35,1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.407 tons, 10,0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 4,3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15.835 lbs / 7.182 Kg = 64,9 x 7,9 " / 200 mm shells or 2,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,13
   Metacentric height 4,1 ft / 1,3 m
   Roll period: 15,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,28
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,440
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,96 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,50 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20,41 ft / 6,22 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   17,16 ft / 5,23 m
      - Mid (50 %):      17,16 ft / 5,23 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17,16 ft / 5,23 m
      - Stern:      17,16 ft / 5,23 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,42 ft / 5,31 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93,9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 145,7 %
   Waterplane Area: 28.668 Square feet or 2.663 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 116 lbs/sq ft or 568 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,35
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[mentat]

  Very solid looking - esp. strong on protection

But i think a bit more firepower would give better return for combat - trade-off of extra Twin turret vs. bit less protection - would be interesting to check ....

The heavy AA looks at least 5 years too early ........

[Jefgte]

I agree with Menta,
8x200 on 12600t is short & too much AA guns for 1921.
Very good protection (26%).
Armor deck-70mm,; perhaps too much...
A good Cruiser but for NUS, not well balanced.

...But that's your cruiser...


Jef  ;)

[ledeper]

Reduced A/A gun and shortened a bit to fit into a Type 2 slip/dock:

Zara, Esc Fleet-cruiser laid down 1921

Displacement:
   10.997 t light; 11.421 t standard; 12.268 t normal; 12.946 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   590,54 ft / 586,94 ft x 75,46 ft x 24,61 ft (normal load)
   180,00 m / 178,90 m x 23,00 m  x 7,50 m

Armament:
     8 - 7,87" / 200 mm guns (4x2 guns), 244,10lbs / 110,72kg shells, 1921 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
     4 - 3,94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30,51lbs / 13,84kg shells, 1921 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
     10 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,88kg shells, 1921 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 2.094 lbs / 950 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5,91" / 150 mm   374,02 ft / 114,00 m   10,43 ft / 3,18 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5,91" / 150 mm   2,76" / 70 mm      5,91" / 150 mm
   2nd:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -

  - Armour deck: 2,76" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 5,91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 82.885 shp / 61.832 Kw = 31,00 kts
   Range 4.500nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1.526 tons

Complement:
   582 - 757

Cost:
   £2,557 million / $10,227 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 262 tons, 2,1 %
   Armour: 2.623 tons, 21,4 %
      - Belts: 976 tons, 8,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 193 tons, 1,6 %
      - Armour Deck: 1.385 tons, 11,3 %
      - Conning Tower: 68 tons, 0,6 %
   Machinery: 2.854 tons, 23,3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4.659 tons, 38,0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.271 tons, 10,4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 4,9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     13.804 lbs / 6.262 Kg = 56,6 x 7,9 " / 200 mm shells or 1,9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
   Metacentric height 4,0 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 15,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,28
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,11

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,394
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,78 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,23 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20,41 ft / 6,22 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   17,16 ft / 5,23 m
      - Mid (50 %):      17,16 ft / 5,23 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17,16 ft / 5,23 m
      - Stern:      17,16 ft / 5,23 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,42 ft / 5,31 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97,7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152,6 %
   Waterplane Area: 27.175 Square feet or 2.525 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 116 lbs/sq ft or 568 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,52
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

And another with increased main battery:

Zara, Esc Fleet-cruiser laid down 1921

Displacement:
   11.424 t light; 11.898 t standard; 12.766 t normal; 13.461 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   590,54 ft / 586,94 ft x 75,46 ft x 24,61 ft (normal load)
   180,00 m / 178,90 m x 23,00 m  x 7,50 m

Armament:
      10 - 7,87" / 200 mm guns (4 mounts), 244,10lbs / 110,72kg shells, 1921 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists 2x3gun 2x2 superfiring
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 3,94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30,51lbs / 13,84kg shells, 1921 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      10 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,88kg shells, 1921 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 2.583 lbs / 1.171 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5,91" / 150 mm   381,23 ft / 116,20 m   10,43 ft / 3,18 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5,91" / 150 mm   2,76" / 70 mm      5,91" / 150 mm
   2nd:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2,76" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 5,91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 85.663 shp / 63.905 Kw = 31,00 kts
   Range 4.500nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1.563 tons

Complement:
   599 - 780

Cost:
   £2,759 million / $11,037 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 323 tons, 2,5 %
   Armour: 2.701 tons, 21,2 %
      - Belts: 993 tons, 7,8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 240 tons, 1,9 %
      - Armour Deck: 1.398 tons, 11,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 69 tons, 0,5 %
   Machinery: 2.950 tons, 23,1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4.850 tons, 38,0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.343 tons, 10,5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 4,7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     13.768 lbs / 6.245 Kg = 56,4 x 7,9 " / 200 mm shells or 1,9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
   Metacentric height 4,0 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 15,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,33
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,06

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,410
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,78 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,23 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20,41 ft / 6,22 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   17,16 ft / 5,23 m
      - Mid (50 %):      17,16 ft / 5,23 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17,16 ft / 5,23 m
      - Stern:      17,16 ft / 5,23 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,42 ft / 5,31 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99,9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 149,7 %
   Waterplane Area: 27.428 Square feet or 2.548 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 120 lbs/sq ft or 586 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,50
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[miketr]

You have like 2 or 3 times the AAA projection you should for a ship that sized in this time period.  Thats an early WW2 outfit.

Do we need a AAA tech tree and hard limits on numbers of AAA?  Seriously this is 1920, I don't think any BB's had 10 AAA and the weapons were heavier. 

Michael

[Sachmle]

I intend to go w/ something along the lines of the following:

BB/BC: 4x88mm, 2-4x37mm, 4-6x15mm
AC/CA: 2x88mm, 4-6x15mm
CL: 2x37mm, 2-4x15mm
DD: 1x37mm, 2-4x15mm

[Nobody]

They're 180 meters long, which means you will still need a Type 3 slip/dock for them because a type 2 is only 170 m long.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Well, here's a question - warships have been sunk and damaged by aerial torpedoes in actual combat. Would that not bolster the minimum acceptable AA outfit?

Also, HMS Nelson - first post war Brit BB laid down, was fitted with 6 dual 6/50 (meant to be dual purpose), 6 4.7/40, 8 2 pound AA. The Italian Caracciolo was to have 8 single 4/45, 12 40 mm.  
So, the ESC cruiser does have less than a period BB.

The Kent class initially had : 4x4", 4x40mm. The ESC ship has more.
The Kent class by 1937 had: 6x 4" AA, 12 x 20mm, and 2x'Pom Pom' (16x40mm).  The Esc ship has less.

[mentat]

  On the AA - 4 x 100 mm seems fine - the 10 x 40 mm a bit high - but more can always be added later

  I wouldn't have thought that Fast Heavy Cruiser will fit in 170m - but notice BC on the 2 recent designs is quite low - will they fit ??

  Oh - and I like the BIG one - 10 x 200mm - YO !!  ;D

[Jefgte]

Real History is the reference... OK

But in our Nverse, a fleet, in the Rift War, in 1919, received a serious aircrafts attack & some ships were seriously damaged.


IMO, our Nverse could instal a little more AA guns that the real Nelson or Counties class.


Jef

[Guinness]

The war was still short and the number of combatants limited. I'd like to see some story lines about various efforts to develop useful AA systems before our ships start sprouting large AA batteries.

[ctwaterman]

I have a story I am contimplating about a report from the Italians.  It covers a few things such as crowding among the target ships prohibiting them from freely manuvering to avoid the attack.

There are some facts and such that need to be added including how quickly the Italia Stockpile of Torpedoes was depleted by aircraft usage and the failures of subsequent attacks.

But yes some cruisers were hit by torpedoes launched from the air, the fact that the targets of those torpedoes were supposed to be freighters full of troops, equipment and munitions does not change the fact that ships at sea were hit from the air.

I agree we need to start looking at a Tech for Dual Purpose [1922 Changes]

Also I am not sure directly how many people know about the Airstrikes other then the person who delivered it and the recepients.   I know I shared info with some people and some obserers will know.

[Jefgte]

One thing is proved with the Rift War;

Ships can be attacked by aircrafts comming from land.

NUS recommends 4 to 8 medium AA guns (20 to 40mm) by ship.


Jef

[Desertfox]

Only NS really knows the true effects of the airstrike and it won't be revealing too much. Only one ship (a destroyer) was sunk and the rest only lightly damaged. According to official releases, the Italian attack was a complete failure.

[snip]

I believe that some of my DDs and TBs have had run ins with planes that have resulted in sunken ships. Of couse in my case, these were small fast ships getting hit, but they are not designed to survive torp hits anyway. Cause for putting a bit heavier AA on, I think so. Now jumping up to 5" DP, not quite