Egyptian Naval Research and Development

[Darman]

Here is a design for a destroyer/minelayer I came up with.  I have a couple points I'm looking at with this design, but I'm not so sure about my talents understanding SpringSharp, just using it (barely). 

* is making a destroyer that can lay mines a bad idea? 
* is 4,000nm a decent range for a destroyer?  And how do I edit it to conform with Navalism rules on range?  (if at all)

Tut, Egypt Destroyer/Minelayer laid down 1919 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   653 t light; 672 t standard; 750 t normal; 812 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   235.00 ft / 235.00 ft x 24.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
   71.63 m / 71.63 m x 7.32 m  x 3.05 m

Armament:
      2 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 21.44lbs / 9.72kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      2 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 44 lbs / 20 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12,837 ihp / 9,576 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 141 tons
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   71 - 93

Cost:
   £0.205 million / $0.822 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 6 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 476 tons, 63.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 165 tons, 22.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 97 tons, 12.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 6 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     149 lbs / 68 Kg = 6.9 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.70
   Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 8.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.465
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.79 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.33 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 69 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.86 ft / 5.14 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   10.73 ft / 3.27 m
      - Mid (50 %):      10.73 ft / 3.27 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.73 ft / 3.27 m
      - Stern:      10.73 ft / 3.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.22 ft / 3.42 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 211.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 86.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 3,644 Square feet or 339 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 19 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 21 lbs/sq ft or 102 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.47
      - Longitudinal: 2.23
      - Overall: 0.55
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

6t = 6 18in torpedoes
10t = 10 sea mines
short range radio

[TexanCowboy]

Eh.....

First, I'm not sure why you're sticking with the Reciprocating engines. Turbines will give you much more power for less weight.

Also, you should be able to use 1912 engines by this point. That will also free up a lot of weight.

Onto the design itself. First, I'm not sure why all the guns would be raised off of the freeboard? The 3.5'' guns, at least, should most likely be on deck level.

BIG one here. Cross-sectional must be at or above .5. Currently, it is at .47.

The range is fine, for a fleet like Eygpt that is based in the Med. Therea are no rules on range.

Also, we pay for weight in light tons, not normal. So you still have room to expand the design.

I'm not sure where the weight for mines is coming from, since there are only 6 tons of misc. weight, but the concept of mines on a destroyer is not a bad one. Generally, in Destroyer-Minelayers, I try to put at least 20 mines on the destroyer, to allow for patterns to be laid.

All and all, not a bad start.

[Darman]

Eh.....
First, I'm not sure why you're sticking with the Reciprocating engines. Turbines will give you much more power for less weight. 

I wasn't sure which one I should be going with.  I was trying to run off Egypt's naval technology levels. 

Also, you should be able to use 1912 engines by this point. That will also free up a lot of weight.

Egypt only has 1905 propulsion tech. 

Onto the design itself. First, I'm not sure why all the guns would be raised off of the freeboard? The 3.5'' guns, at least, should most likely be on deck level.

I'll amend that.  I wasn't quite sure what that part meant...

BIG one here. Cross-sectional must be at or above .5. Currently, it is at .47.

I'm definitely going to fix that.  I'll need to find that stat and tinker a bit. 

Also, we pay for weight in light tons, not normal. So you still have room to expand the design.

How would I translate normal tons into light tons?  I knew it was figured in light tons but I didn't know how to convert from one to the other. 

I'm not sure where the weight for mines is coming from, since there are only 6 tons of misc. weight, but the concept of mines on a destroyer is not a bad one. Generally, in Destroyer-Minelayers, I try to put at least 20 mines on the destroyer, to allow for patterns to be laid.

I made a mistake there... I had originally included 10 miscellaneous tons for a short range radio and I guess I messed up and forgot to add the 10t back on for the mines (originally there were going to be no mines). 

[Darman]

Tut, Egypt Destroyer/Minelayer laid down 1919 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   723 t light; 744 t standard; 875 t normal; 980 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   230.00 ft / 230.00 ft x 24.00 ft x 9.00 ft (normal load)
   70.10 m / 70.10 m x 7.32 m  x 2.74 m

Armament:
      2 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 21.44lbs / 9.73kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
     2 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in any sea
      4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 45 lbs / 20 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 15,771 shp / 11,765 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 235 tons

Complement:
   79 - 104

Cost:
   £0.221 million / $0.884 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 6 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 509 tons, 58.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 182 tons, 20.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 152 tons, 17.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 26 tons, 3.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     202 lbs / 92 Kg = 9.4 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.52
   Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 9.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.05
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.80

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.616
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.58 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.17 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 73 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.86 ft / 5.14 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   10.73 ft / 3.27 m
      - Mid (50 %):      10.73 ft / 3.27 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.73 ft / 3.27 m
      - Stern:      10.73 ft / 3.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.22 ft / 3.42 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 195.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 86.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,100 Square feet or 381 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 36 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 109 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.51
      - Longitudinal: 2.06
      - Overall: 0.59
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

6t = 6 18in torpedoes
20t = 20 sea mines
short range radio

[TexanCowboy]

Eh.....
First, I'm not sure why you're sticking with the Reciprocating engines. Turbines will give you much more power for less weight.  

I wasn't sure which one I should be going with.  I was trying to run off Egypt's naval technology levels.  

Eh, turbines are a lot better in that regard. A lot better.

Also, you should be able to use 1912 engines by this point. That will also free up a lot of weight.

Egypt only has 1905 propulsion tech.  

Eh, 1909 propulsion was donated to you at the beginning of 1917. Did you integrate it? Also, 1905 technology means you can use 1909 engines. 1902 technology means you can use 1905 engines.

Also, we pay for weight in light tons, not normal. So you still have room to expand the design.

How would I translate normal tons into light tons?  I knew it was figured in light tons but I didn't know how to convert from one to the other.  

Eh, light tons is normal tons minus food, ammunition, and fuel. To increase light tons, you can increase the general size of the ship, LWD and BC.

On the new ship. For the guns, I wouldn't put anything in the superfiring or belowdecks portions on the guns tab, leaving both at 0. Right now, the guns are within the ship, like a casement mount on a dreadnought.

For the big machine guns, do you intend to have one of the twin mounts firing over the other forward? In that case, I would move it aft, as to help with bow heaviness.

It seems this ship is underpreforming compared to many of the size because of the want to fit it into a Type 0 drydock. A BC of .616 is very high. Try lowering that to .45 and increasing the length and beam of the ship.

Otherwise, it looks pretty good. :)

[snip]

Ah so im not the only one trying to cram a DDish thing into a type 0  :)
Here is a design im working on, maybe it might work well for what you have in mind.

Garrison Ahern Class, Irish Frigate laid down 1920 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   450 t light; 476 t standard; 544 t normal; 598 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   229.09 ft / 225.00 ft x 20.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
   69.83 m / 68.58 m x 6.10 m  x 3.05 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount aft
      6 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (3x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 131 lbs / 59 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   3 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   0.50" / 13 mm            -
   2nd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 7,408 shp / 5,526 Kw = 25.00 kts
   Range 3,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 122 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   56 - 73

Cost:
   £0.143 million / $0.572 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 16 tons, 3.0 %
   Armour: 10 tons, 1.8 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 8 tons, 1.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 221 tons, 40.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 153 tons, 28.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 94 tons, 17.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 9.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     158 lbs / 72 Kg = 4.9 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 0.5 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 11.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 78 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.78
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.55

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.423
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.25 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.25 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Mid (30 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Stern:      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.54 ft / 3.21 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 165.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 53.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 2,812 Square feet or 261 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 65 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 21 lbs/sq ft or 104 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 3.31
      - Overall: 0.60
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

25 tons long range wireless
10 tons for mines (or depth charges once I have the tech)
12 tons 21inch torpedos (1 set reloads)
3 tons construction reserve and expantion room
Trial speed: 27 knts

[Darman]

Eh, 1909 propulsion was donated to you at the beginning of 1917. Did you integrate it? Also, 1905 technology means you can use 1909 engines. 1902 technology means you can use 1905 engines.

It has not been integrated yet, and actually Egypt doesn't even have 1905 level tech, only 1902.  We're working on researching 1905 tech.  So I'm stuck with 1905 historical engines. 

On the new ship. For the guns, I wouldn't put anything in the superfiring or belowdecks portions on the guns tab, leaving both at 0. Right now, the guns are within the ship, like a casement mount on a dreadnought.

For the big machine guns, do you intend to have one of the twin mounts firing over the other forward? In that case, I would move it aft, as to help with bow heaviness.

I put them all at zero.  I also tried to move one of the heavies aft.  I also made them dual mounts instead of single mounts.  I figured I'd try and boost its anti-torpedo boat defenses a bit.  Not that those guns will do anything except kill some personnel. 

It seems this ship is underpreforming compared to many of the size because of the want to fit it into a Type 0 drydock. A BC of .616 is very high. Try lowering that to .45 and increasing the length and beam of the ship.

I lowered the BC to .485.  Increased the length by about 20 feet. 
I'm not trying to get it to fit into a Type 0 DD I'm just trying to keep it within Egypt's DD tech levels. 

[Carthaginian]

Put the guns in deck mounts rather than in casemates...
A casemate will severely limit their usefulness.

The deck mount will let them be more easily trained.

[maddox]

A delegation of French technological experts is under way. We can't have our Egyptian vaza euh, friends become so obsolete they still have to use galleys.

[TexanCowboy]

Of course they can't use galleys! Far too obsolete!

They need to be using Viking longships instead!



*runs away*

[maddox]

Nice one, try to sell that to the United Norman Kingdom. Looks like the Ideal Envoy Vessel for them.

[ciders]

I think the hunt of Romanian Earthboomer is open. >:( ;D

Papyrus war rafts ! The best of the best warships in Red Sea ( with French and New Swiss scraps ).

*runs away too*

[snip]

I suggest... A LOG! Prefect for ramming!

*runs away and hides*

On a not funny note. She does look good. Im more of a fan of a larger number of guns. My only gripe would be with that. 3.5" isnt going to do much against some of the DDs ive seen, do you have a bigger DD gun?

[TexanCowboy]

You need a more prestigious vessel for someone like Black Adder!



I suggest La Real, Spanish flagship at the battle of Leptano.



No, no, not that Leptano!!!



*Runs VERY far away*  ;D

[Darman]

On a not funny note. She does look good. Im more of a fan of a larger number of guns. My only gripe would be with that. 3.5" isnt going to do much against some of the DDs ive seen, do you have a bigger DD gun?

I may have a bigger gun.  I'm not sure what types of guns and mounts Egypt has and is allowed to use because there is no list.  We did receive one such design that's usable though.  I'll have to check and see how it'll work. 

The French 140mm/L50 QF gun in a single mount fits.  That is roughly a 5.5inch QF gun.  Fires a heavier 42kg shell.  Had to reduce top speed by 1 knot to fit the extra magazine space. 

Tut, Egypt Destroyer/Minelayer laid down 1919 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   736 t light; 770 t standard; 875 t normal; 959 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   262.94 ft / 260.00 ft x 27.00 ft x 9.00 ft (normal load)
   80.14 m / 79.25 m x 8.23 m  x 2.74 m

Armament:
      2 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92.59lbs / 42.00kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
      4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 187 lbs / 85 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Hydraulic drive, 2 shafts, 15,839 shp / 11,816 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 190 tons

Complement:
   79 - 104

Cost:
   £0.245 million / $0.980 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 21 tons, 2.4 %
   Machinery: 491 tons, 56.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 208 tons, 23.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 139 tons, 15.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 16 tons, 1.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     195 lbs / 89 Kg = 2.3 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.59
   Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 9.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.22
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.90

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.485
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.63 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16.12 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.68 ft / 5.08 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   10.62 ft / 3.24 m
      - Mid (0 %):      10.62 ft / 3.24 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.62 ft / 3.24 m
      - Stern:      10.62 ft / 3.24 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.10 ft / 3.38 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 201.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 101.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,613 Square feet or 429 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 34 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 119 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.49
      - Longitudinal: 1.54
      - Overall: 0.55
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

6t = 6 18in torpedoes
10t = 10 sea mines
short range radio