Dood de Nieuwe Zwitsers, Holland torpedohruizer

[damocles]

Dood de Nieuwe Zwitsers, Holland torpedohruizer  laid down 1916

Displacement:
   12,778 t light; 13,356 t standard; 15,493 t normal; 17,204 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   604.48 ft / 597.11 ft x 72.18 ft x 21.33 ft (normal load)
   184.24 m / 182.00 m x 22.00 m  x 6.50 m

Armament:
      12 - 7.87" / 200 mm guns (3x4 guns), 244.10lbs / 110.72kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      32 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1916 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 3,138 lbs / 1,424 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.92" / 125 mm   389.99 ft / 118.87 m   8.99 ft / 2.74 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6.10" / 155 mm   2.17" / 55 mm      6.10" / 155 mm
   2nd:   0.39" / 10 mm   0.39" / 10 mm      0.39" / 10 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 4.92" / 125 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion generators,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 91,283 shp / 68,097 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,848 tons

Complement:
   693 - 902

Cost:
   £2.050 million / $8.201 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 392 tons, 2.5 %
   Armour: 2,293 tons, 14.8 %
      - Belts: 734 tons, 4.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 584 tons, 3.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 910 tons, 5.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 66 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 3,401 tons, 22.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,692 tons, 36.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,715 tons, 17.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,000 tons, 6.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     18,123 lbs / 8,220 Kg = 74.2 x 7.9 " / 200 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 15.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 68 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.590
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.27 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.44 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.46 ft / 0.75 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30.97 ft / 9.44 m
      - Forecastle (17 %):   20.64 ft / 6.29 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.64 ft / 6.29 m
      - Quarterdeck (19 %):   20.64 ft / 6.29 m
      - Stern:      23.75 ft / 7.24 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.64 ft / 6.60 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 31,228 Square feet or 2,901 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 122 lbs/sq ft or 598 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.41
      - Overall: 1.01
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

1000 tons misc.
   250 tons fire control
     25 tons radio
     25 tons radar
     25 tons acoustics
   150 tons torpedoes

[Guinness]

That's a *lot* of AA. To compare, I've dug up some historical examples (see below). All of these are cruisers from the 20's. As a reminder: I think it's a safe statement that by 1920 OTL the airplane was a proven tool of war, and contemporary designers were taking into account it's threat. Here, only in the last month have airplanes proven themselves dangerous to ships that are underway. So I think 16 75mm AA guns and 32 15mm MGs might be an overreaction.

Historical ships:

HMS Kent (RN County) 1928:
8 x 8 in (203 mm) dual guns
4 x 4 in (102 mm) single AA guns
2 x 2 pdr (37 mm/40 mm) pom-poms quad guns

USS Salt Lake City 1929:
10 × 8 inch/55 caliber guns (2×2, 2×3)
8 × single 5 inch/38 caliber guns
4 × quad 1.1 inch/75 caliber guns
(I think she probably had some 0.50 inch MGs, but I'd have to check Friedman. The 1.1inch was brand new in 1929.)

Duquesne 1925:
8 203mm/50 Modèle 1924 guns (4 × 2)
8 75 mm anti-aircraft guns (8 × 1)
8 37 mm anti-aircraft guns (4 × 2)
(Cited as also having 4 triple 13.2mm MG mounts, but not sure when they were fitted)

IJN Myoko 1929:
• 10 × 203 mm (8.0 in) guns (5×2)
• 6 × 120 mm (4.7 in) guns
• 2 × 13 mm (0.51 in) machine guns

Trento 1926:
8 x 203 mm / 50 caliber
16 x 100 mm / 47 caliber
8 x 40 mm / 39 caliber AA
8 x 12.7 mm AAMG

[damocles]

I was more concerned about the main gun layout criticism. The NRDN is getting reports that Rift War air attack is FAR more effective than the MVB expected or that is publicly known.  

Not sinkings here, but a lot of very close calls and incidental accumulated damage that would seriously impair operations.  

I still don't think the aircraft is there yet, but the choice here was for arming independent operating ships that also operate as heavy escorts. A 1916 75mm AAA gun is for all practical purposes still just a Zeppelin killer.

D.    

[Borys]

Ahoj!

Dood de Nieuwe Zwitsers

Hmm, sounds like porn ...
Borys

[Jefgte]

You have too much AA guns & MG for a 1916 cruiser.

you could really reduce the MG.

in 1916.., consider also the DDs protection more important than AA protection...
So, choose 100mm or 120 for secondaries & just 4x75 AA


Jef  ;)

[Sachmle]

I have to agree on the AA. However, nice name. ;)

[ctwaterman]

*sniff sniff*  man damage 4 or 5 measely New Swiss cruisers because they were sailing in such close formation that they couldnt dodge without running over their Destroyers.  And then hit a bunch waiting to enter harbor and low on fuel.

In addition all these AA guns are either 20mm and less and therefore revenge weapons the torpedo is already in the water.  Or 75mm and  and basically lack the very reliable timed fuzes for a really good flak curtain.   Fuze setting machines and accurate ranging on a target as small as a plane are a thing of the future.

But yes other then the huge number of AA guns not bad. 

Hey Do we have Limitations for a gun either being a Hight Angle or Low Angle gun.

Charles

[Logi]

It's a fine ship, too much AA though.

[damocles]

Dood de Nieuwe Zwitsers, Holland torpedohruizer  laid down 1916

Displacement:
   12,995 t light; 13,593 t standard; 15,756 t normal; 17,486 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   604.48 ft / 597.11 ft x 72.18 ft x 21.33 ft (normal load)
   184.24 m / 182.00 m x 22.00 m  x 6.50 m

Armament:
      12 - 7.87" / 200 mm guns (3x4 guns), 244.10lbs / 110.72kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      12 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (6x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      32 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1916 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 3,299 lbs / 1,496 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.92" / 125 mm   389.99 ft / 118.87 m   8.99 ft / 2.74 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6.10" / 155 mm   2.17" / 55 mm      6.10" / 155 mm
   2nd:   0.39" / 10 mm   0.39" / 10 mm      0.39" / 10 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 4.92" / 125 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion generators,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 92,679 shp / 69,138 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,893 tons

Complement:
   703 - 914

Cost:
   £2.102 million / $8.408 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 412 tons, 2.6 %
   Armour: 2,303 tons, 14.6 %
      - Belts: 734 tons, 4.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 584 tons, 3.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 918 tons, 5.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 67 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 3,453 tons, 21.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,826 tons, 37.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,761 tons, 17.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,000 tons, 6.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     18,279 lbs / 8,291 Kg = 74.9 x 7.9 " / 200 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 15.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 67 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.600
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.27 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.44 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.46 ft / 0.75 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30.97 ft / 9.44 m
      - Forecastle (17 %):   20.64 ft / 6.29 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.64 ft / 6.29 m
      - Quarterdeck (19 %):   20.64 ft / 6.29 m
      - Stern:      23.75 ft / 7.24 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.64 ft / 6.60 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 146.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 31,522 Square feet or 2,928 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 124 lbs/sq ft or 608 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.42
      - Overall: 1.02
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

1000 tons misc.
250 tons fire control
   25 tons radio
   25 tons radar
   25 tons acoustics
150 tons torpedoes 

[TexanCowboy]

I'd cut the machine guns in half....not very period realistic.

[Jefgte]

Tex is right...


Jef

[P3D]

Shouldn't AA machine guns be in single mounts as then they could be trained manually - and operated by a single person unlike pedestal mounts?

[damocles]

The Germans used a 37 mm gatling gun, something much like the old Hotchkiss naval 2 pounder as a balloon burster in 1917. They also shot at planes with it

That was a multi-barrel gun used on ship and land. It was heavy and it was manually trained, and served by gun crews.

I think that my machine guns in their quad mounts are in the same total weight class, effective range, and handled the same exact way.  

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=990CEED91130E433A25750C0A9649C946996D6CF

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92120  

I should point out that the "flaming onion" was a myth born of optical illusion.

D.

[Walter]

Being Dutch, I approve of the name. ;D

[P3D]

I'd rather have the MGs in a simple pivot mount, and aim by tracers. With heavy water-cooled HMGs of the 1920s only single mounts would be light enough.
http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_50cal-M2_MG_pics.htm

A pedestal quad MG mount is much heavier and IMHO does not worth the bother.
http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_5-62_mk3.htm