Trial designs

[Darman]

I'm trying to simulate older ships first so I can get a feel for what is right and what isn't. 
I tried the Invincible-class battlecruiser. 


Invincible, UK Battlecruiser laid down 1906

Displacement:
   15,740 t light; 16,718 t standard; 17,424 t normal; 17,988 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   560.00 ft / 560.00 ft x 78.90 ft x 26.80 ft (normal load)
   170.69 m / 170.69 m x 24.05 m  x 8.17 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turrets
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      7 - 0.58" / 14.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1906 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 7,425 lbs / 3,368 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   5 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6.00" / 152 mm   364.00 ft / 110.95 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   195.98 ft / 59.73 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   364.00 ft / 110.95 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   4.00" / 102 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 47,647 shp / 35,544 Kw = 25.00 kts
   Range 3,090nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,270 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   757 - 985

Cost:
   £1.807 million / $7.228 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 928 tons, 5.3 %
   Armour: 4,841 tons, 27.8 %
      - Belts: 1,812 tons, 10.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,591 tons, 9.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,380 tons, 7.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 58 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 3,403 tons, 19.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,558 tons, 37.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,683 tons, 9.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 10 tons, 0.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15,298 lbs / 6,939 Kg = 17.7 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 4.4 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 15.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.13

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.515
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.66 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.03 ft / 7.93 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.57 ft / 5.05 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.57 ft / 5.05 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.57 ft / 5.05 m
      - Stern:      16.57 ft / 5.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.33 ft / 5.28 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 29,846 Square feet or 2,773 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 91 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 151 lbs/sq ft or 735 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.47
      - Overall: 1.01
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate



Please do tell me if I missed anything, and I'm certain I am because the Invincible had (among other things) 3,000 tons of coal bunkerage, not the 1200 tons here.  Also ~700 tons of oil to spray on the coal. 
Any tips will be happily perused and probably attempted. 

[TexanCowboy]

1. Coles/Ericsson turrets are for ships like the Moniter. Use turrets on barbettes, that is the modern definition of what a turret is.

2. You should try to get the main belt to fully cover magazine and engineering spaces. It may not have been historical, but the sooner that happens, the better.

3. For the historical Invincible layout, you would want 4x12'' guns on the centerline, and 4x12'' guns amidship, on the sides.

4. The deck is rather thick. The deck is the average of the deck strengths, so I would lower it to 1.5'' and use the remainder on range.

5. I believe the Invicible was oil-sprayed? If so, use 10% oil and 90% coal. That should free up some weight.

All and all, not a bad start.

[Darman]

Thanks!  I'll try the alterations.  Its also very good to know about the turret/turret+barbette difference. 

How would I get the main belt to cover the magazine/engineering spaces?  Make it wider? 

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Yes, usually a wider ship solves the problem of magazines doing a peek-a-boo :)
However, first try turret&barbette - that might be the cure.
When applying armour the programme tells you what the lenght to cover the vitals should be.
Also, capital ships never carried 150 rounds of MG ammunition. You can cut down to 80-120, which are historicaly correct  numbers.
Borys

[P3D]

Range should be 6000@10kts not 3000.
Engine year should be 1905 or 1909.

[TexanCowboy]

P3D, he's working on a first time sim. Let him figure out the rules of Navalism later....

[Darman]

Took me a little bit to get around to it but here is my second attempt:  

Invincible, UK Battlecruiser laid down 1906

Displacement:
   16,021 t light; 16,718 t standard; 17,424 t normal; 17,988 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   560.00 ft / 560.00 ft x 78.90 ft x 26.80 ft (normal load)
   170.69 m / 170.69 m x 24.05 m  x 8.17 m

Armament:
     4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns in single mounts, 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns in single mounts, 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
     16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     7 - 0.58" / 14.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.10lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1906 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 7,425 lbs / 3,368 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 80
   5 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6.00" / 152 mm   364.00 ft / 110.95 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   195.98 ft / 59.73 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   364.00 ft / 110.95 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
   2nd:   7.00" / 178 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      4.00" / 102 mm

  - Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 47,647 shp / 35,544 Kw = 25.00 kts
   Range 3,090nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,270 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   757 - 985

Cost:
   £1.817 million / $7.267 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 928 tons, 5.3 %
   Armour: 3,530 tons, 20.3 %
      - Belts: 1,812 tons, 10.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 832 tons, 4.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 828 tons, 4.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 58 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 3,403 tons, 19.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,149 tons, 46.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,402 tons, 8.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 10 tons, 0.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     16,239 lbs / 7,366 Kg = 18.8 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
   Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 15.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 58 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.16

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.515
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.66 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.03 ft / 7.93 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.57 ft / 5.05 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.57 ft / 5.05 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.57 ft / 5.05 m
      - Stern:      16.57 ft / 5.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.33 ft / 5.28 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 29,846 Square feet or 2,773 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 187 lbs/sq ft or 914 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.24
      - Longitudinal: 1.97
      - Overall: 1.30
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Still running into a couple problems notably the oil-coal bunkerage thing.  Coal bunkerage increased slightly but not to historical levels.  And I couldn't add in the 10% oil because its down as a coal-powered vessel.  Any way around that? 

[TexanCowboy]

A. Cut down the composite strength to 1.00, preferably by extending belt armour.

B. Gun's should be in twin turrets, not single turrets.

C. "Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces" is usually something you don't want.

[Darman]

Roger the turrets thing.  I fixed it.  I'm still trying to work out how to cover the engineering spaces and machinery.  Do I just make the belt taller? 

[Darman]

Invincible, UK Battlecruiser laid down 1906

Displacement:
   15,439 t light; 16,136 t standard; 17,424 t normal; 18,454 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   560.00 ft / 560.00 ft x 78.90 ft x 26.80 ft (normal load)
   170.69 m / 170.69 m x 24.05 m  x 8.17 m

Armament:
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      7 - 0.58" / 14.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.10lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1906 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 7,425 lbs / 3,368 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 80
   5 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6.00" / 152 mm   350.00 ft / 106.68 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   210.00 ft / 64.01 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   350.00 ft / 106.68 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
   2nd:   7.00" / 178 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      4.00" / 102 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 47,647 shp / 35,544 Kw = 25.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,318 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   757 - 985

Cost:
   £1.796 million / $7.186 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 928 tons, 5.3 %
   Armour: 3,388 tons, 19.4 %
      - Belts: 1,788 tons, 10.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 713 tons, 4.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 828 tons, 4.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 58 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 3,403 tons, 19.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,710 tons, 44.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,985 tons, 11.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 10 tons, 0.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     16,456 lbs / 7,465 Kg = 19.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
   Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 14.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.18

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.515
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.66 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.03 ft / 7.93 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.57 ft / 5.05 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.57 ft / 5.05 m
      - Quarterdeck (18 %):   16.57 ft / 5.05 m
      - Stern:      16.57 ft / 5.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.33 ft / 5.28 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 29,846 Square feet or 2,773 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 177 lbs/sq ft or 865 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.12
      - Longitudinal: 1.88
      - Overall: 1.18
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate



Its still wrong I know.  I tried 6,000 range and got ~1200 tons coal.  Still not sure how to do the oil thing.  Or cover the machinery with more armor. 

[TexanCowboy]

To cover the machinery, reduce the length of the end belts and increase the length of the main belt until it reaches the length stated nessasary to cover the magazines and engines. Extra composite strength, in most cases, is just wasted weight, that isn't needed.

[Darman]

Fixed it    ;D   Thanks for the tip! 

Invincible, UK Battlecruiser laid down 1906

Displacement:
   15,439 t light; 16,136 t standard; 17,424 t normal; 18,454 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   560.00 ft / 560.00 ft x 78.90 ft x 26.80 ft (normal load)
   170.69 m / 170.69 m x 24.05 m  x 8.17 m

Armament:
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      7 - 0.58" / 14.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.10lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1906 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 7,425 lbs / 3,368 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 80
   5 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6.00" / 152 mm   374.64 ft / 114.19 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   185.30 ft / 56.48 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   350.00 ft / 106.68 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
   2nd:   7.00" / 178 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      4.00" / 102 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 47,647 shp / 35,544 Kw = 25.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,318 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   757 - 985

Cost:
   £1.796 million / $7.186 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 928 tons, 5.3 %
   Armour: 3,402 tons, 19.5 %
      - Belts: 1,803 tons, 10.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 713 tons, 4.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 828 tons, 4.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 58 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 3,403 tons, 19.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,695 tons, 44.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,985 tons, 11.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 10 tons, 0.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     16,456 lbs / 7,464 Kg = 19.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
   Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 14.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.18

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.515
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.66 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.03 ft / 7.93 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.57 ft / 5.05 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.57 ft / 5.05 m
      - Quarterdeck (18 %):   16.57 ft / 5.05 m
      - Stern:      16.57 ft / 5.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.33 ft / 5.28 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 29,846 Square feet or 2,773 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 177 lbs/sq ft or 863 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.11
      - Longitudinal: 1.88
      - Overall: 1.17
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

[Sachmle]

Q: Are you trying to make a historical replica of the real Invincible or your version? If a historical copy, it's probably not too bad.

However, if you're trying to make an 'own version' I recommend the following to make it "better".

1) You still have a lot of composite strength left. You can/should add more misc weight as 10t isn't very much. Most capital ships here have between 300 and 500t set aside for misc weight. This is used to add things later or represent things installed now such as wireless radio, fire control, radar, etc.

2) To get 10% oil spray you need to check both the oil firing and coal firing boiler option, then set the % of bunkerage set aside for coal at 90%.

3) Your casemated secondary has no armor over the actual casemates, just an upper belt covering the areas not cut away for the guns. Put armor on the 4" guns faces. Also, I usually put some armor on the 'below deck/hoist' for casemates to to protect the handling rooms.

4) Your CT armor is a little thin for the time period. In my experience the CT armor is usually at least as thick as the barbette armor, if not the turret face.

5) Your barbette's are a little thin at 4".

6) 1.10 is usually the excepted 'minimum' for stability. If you adjust the trim slider to the right until you hit that it will improve you steadiness/gunfire platform rating.

7) If a 'by our rules' ship there would be no 1906 engine year. You'd either have to set the engine year to 1905 or 1909.

[Darman]

My first try is to make it as historically accurate as possible.  But I appreciate the tips for improving on it for my own designs because that is the very next step anyways.  Tomorrow my plan is to work on an improved version if this one seems adequately historically accurate enough. 

[Kaiser Kirk]

A couple sites give the barbette armor at 7", declining to 2" behind the belt armor- here just 7" works. Conning tower appears to have maxed at 10".  Deck armor apparently varied by location, average may be what you have.

Torpedoes were submerged.

Looking at Invincible I wonder if your freeboard is correct. There appears to be a step aft of "P" turret. Trying to scale of a side view, it looks about 22.5' forward, and 15' aft.

Range is given as 3,090 @10kts in two of my books.

Best I can do.