Reconstruction thoughts

[Valles]

And building in new bulkheads is simpler, somehow, and therefore allowed? Huh. Odd.

*shrug*

Bardiche Assault, Maori Battleship laid down 1916

Displacement:
   35,006 t light; 37,667 t standard; 41,106 t normal; 43,858 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   712.72 ft / 705.38 ft x 98.43 ft x 27.23 ft (normal load)
   217.24 m / 215.00 m x 30.00 m  x 8.30 m

Armament:
      10 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (5x2 guns), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (8x2 guns), 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side ends, evenly spread
      4 - 1.38" / 35.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.10lbs / 0.50kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 21,768 lbs / 9,874 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   493.77 ft / 150.50 m   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      0.98" / 25 mm   493.77 ft / 150.50 m   26.74 ft / 8.15 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   11.8" / 300 mm      15.0" / 380 mm
   2nd:   5.91" / 150 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.39" / 10 mm      0.39" / 10 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 14.96" / 380 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 35,696 shp / 26,630 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6,191 tons

Complement:
   1,443 - 1,876

Cost:
   £5.493 million / $21.972 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,316 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 15,307 tons, 37.2 %
      - Belts: 6,240 tons, 15.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 481 tons, 1.2 %
      - Armament: 3,927 tons, 9.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,275 tons, 10.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 384 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 1,330 tons, 3.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,553 tons, 37.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,101 tons, 14.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     61,562 lbs / 27,924 Kg = 36.5 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 9.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 17.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.761
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.17 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 37 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 5.91 ft / 1.80 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   15.42 ft / 4.70 m
      - Mid (50 %):      15.42 ft / 4.70 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   15.42 ft / 4.70 m
      - Stern:      15.42 ft / 4.70 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.48 ft / 4.72 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 58,701 Square feet or 5,453 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 210 lbs/sq ft or 1,025 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.15
      - Longitudinal: 0.95
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate


2.6BP/$6.6 - Basic Reconstruction cost
1.3BP/$2.6 - New Engines
2.3BP/$4.6 - Armament replaced
15.3BP/$15.3 - Complete replacement and redesign of all armor, including addition of torpedo bulkhead
0.5BP/$0.5 - Fire control and other arrangements replaced

22BP/$30.6 - Grand total bill over 2 1/2 years.

For the 'what are you saving approach... Call it sixty, seventy percent of the original structure, mostly in crew areas or other non-critical points. Point six-five times twenty-six, 16.9 BP - call it seventeen since we're guessing wildly anyway. Total new stuff is thus 18BP, plus 2.6BP and $6.6 'reconstructing' the kept material. Scrapped material, 9BP*0.15=$1.35. Net total, 19BP and $23.

As I said, scrap value's not just a joke, but a bad joke.

[Desertfox]

New guns, new armor, new engines... Ever heard the phrase "New wine in old wine jars"?

Then again why am I dissuading you? NS completely agrees that this rebuild is most neccessary and viable!
(That is NOT my invasion fleet you see approaching your coast...)

[Walter]

Ever heard the phrase "New wine in old wine jars"?

Sounds to me like "recycling". ;D

(That is NOT my invasion fleet you see approaching your coast...)

Just the pieces of the ships floating back to Maori. :D

[Ithekro]

Do take into account that things will need to be removed to get to other areas of the ship.  You might have to remove a lot of non-essential areas of the ship just to get the engine out of the hull.  It isn't like the ship is modular, rivets and all that.

[Valles]

At the midships' point, even with the flank turrets and where the new centerline ones need to go, you're removing the old magazines, the old reciprocating machinery (at the centerline), decking where the new barbettes need to go, the old barbettes,and outer hull structure from the top of the belt to the keel, to account for the thicker belt and new torpedo bulkhead. Points fore and aft of that mess can be gotten to by eating away at the 'inside' - pulling out the turbine and boiler rooms through that hole, then the end barbettes through the vacated engine spaces. The new electric motor rooms, and most of the new armor suite, can be added from the outside, so to speak.

...hm.

*opens file and tries out a 40mm upper belt*

Hmm, 45mm... that works.

No, wait, DAMMIT, SS, LEAVE MY SHELL WEIGHTS ALONE! *glares*

...there, fixed.

Bardiche Assault, Maori Battleship laid down 1916

Displacement:
   35,338 t light; 38,006 t standard; 41,468 t normal; 44,238 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   716.66 ft / 705.38 ft x 98.43 ft x 27.23 ft (normal load)
   218.44 m / 215.00 m x 30.00 m  x 8.30 m

Armament:
      10 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (5x2 guns), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (8x2 guns), 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side ends, evenly spread
      4 - 1.38" / 35.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.10lbs / 0.50kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 21,768 lbs / 9,874 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   493.77 ft / 150.50 m   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   1.57" / 40 mm   493.77 ft / 150.50 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      0.98" / 25 mm   493.77 ft / 150.50 m   26.71 ft / 8.14 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   11.8" / 300 mm      15.0" / 380 mm
   2nd:   5.91" / 150 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.39" / 10 mm      0.39" / 10 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 35,955 shp / 26,823 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6,232 tons

Complement:
   1,452 - 1,888

Cost:
   £5.514 million / $22.057 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,316 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 15,582 tons, 37.6 %
      - Belts: 6,570 tons, 15.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 480 tons, 1.2 %
      - Armament: 3,927 tons, 9.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,300 tons, 10.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 305 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 1,340 tons, 3.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,600 tons, 37.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,131 tons, 14.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     62,438 lbs / 28,321 Kg = 37.0 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 9.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 17.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.768
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.17 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 38 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   15.42 ft / 4.70 m
      - Mid (50 %):      15.42 ft / 4.70 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   15.42 ft / 4.70 m
      - Stern:      15.42 ft / 4.70 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.48 ft / 4.72 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 59,039 Square feet or 5,485 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 209 lbs/sq ft or 1,023 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.15
      - Longitudinal: 0.95
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Armor deck is 60mm at 1.0 quality + 40mm 1.1 quality detonator plate spaced at 3m (1 deck). Main belt is 1.1 quality sloped 20 degrees.

[P3D]

Let's see what is possible according to the rules:

"The bow may be lengthened by up to 5% of overall length.  A new section may be added amidships, up to 5% of overall length. "
You are adding a 21m section amidship increasing the citadel (from 129m to 150m). As no provisions allow decreasing the length of the ship ends, the ship must be lengthened by the same 21m.

Refurbishment/Reconstruction rules regarding armor:
"New armor decks, external belts, and external bulges for torpedo defence (not "torpedo bulkheads") can be added.  Existing armor decks, external belts, or weapon armor can be replaced or removed (not increased).  "
...
"Internal belts can be replaced or removed.  Torpedo Bulkheads can be added."

I.e. no allowance to increase original vertical armor according to rules. Neither in height nor thickness. Only Harvey steel replaced by imp. KC plates.

[Valles]

Find a better excuse.

[P3D]

Find a better excuse.

::)

[maddox]

It's a good excuse, and the moderators will deliberate about it.

For now, I have stated before, and will repeat, it looks like you're retaining anchors and ships bell and build a new ship around it. But that's my personal view.

Ever tought how a 1910 rivetted hull should be taken appart for "re-use"?

Drilling out good steel rivets, without making the holes oval or breaking a drill.
As metal worker  I had the fun experience doing this on a smaller scale at school. First making a steel cube 4" a side, with 12 rivets in each rib.

Then to remove a side and make it hinged, again rivetted.
The rivets were self forged. I had the stupid idea of using a piece of silversteel rod. After forging them, they were glass hard, so I could only rivet them glowing red.
After cooling, those were again hard and brittle as glass. Great when you have to drill them out. In the end I had to anglegrind the head off, very carefully. Because the teacher had forbidden the use of powertools. The only tools we had acces too were the hand tools, that was part of the job.

But imagine an anglegrinder in 1920....

[Nobody]

You are adding a 21m section amidship increasing the citadel (from 129m to 150m). As no provisions allow decreasing the length of the ship ends, the ship must be lengthened by the same 21m.

Refurbishment/Reconstruction rules regarding armor:
"New armor decks, external belts, and external bulges for torpedo defence (not "torpedo bulkheads") can be added.  Existing armor decks, external belts, or weapon armor can be replaced or removed (not increased).  "
...
"Internal belts can be replaced or removed.  Torpedo Bulkheads can be added."

If you can add or replace armor belts, then increasing the citadel (which is in principle the mostly armored part of the ship) shouldn't be a problem either.
More important is in my opinion that no beam increase is mentioned.

"armor can be replaced or removed (not increased)"
Means, from my point of view, that if you want you want to 'increase' armor you have to replace it completely - making it very expansive but possible.

[Guinness]

The intent, which admittedly isn't so clear in the rules at the moment, was to make it impossible to willy-nilly change hull lines on an existent hull. Broader beam certainly would mean changing hull lines. Inserting a new hull section, or lengthening the bow (and frankly also the stern) Italian style is also ok, since the lines of the rest of the existing hull aren't changing.

I'm not sure that lengthening the "armored citadel" (which may not be a great term for non-aon ships) without lengthening the ship itself is ok or not. The lynchpin there is likely moving fore and aft armored bulkheads. This seems like it should be ok to me.

At any rate, these questions, in my opinion, are neither here nor there. This does not appear to me to be a reconstruction, but rather something beyond that.

More or less everything we do here is subject to Mod review in the interest of upholding Rule Number 1, as well as in the interest of maintaining game playability and basic fairness. We also are the arbiters of the Rules of Physics in the Nverse. :)

I think this concept demands a Mod discussion. So we'll need to confer, and get back to everyone on this. Please continue to discuss amongst yourselves, but let's keep it civil.

Edited to remove redundantly redundant grammar.

[Valles]

If my last response was overly confrontational or flippant, then I'll apologize for that - my impression of P3D's logic chain is along the lines of 'Is this a sufficiently unoriginal mimicry of real history? No? How can I prevent it from coming to pass? Persuasion? Rule technicalities? Changed rules?' ...and so on, which I have not the slightest patience for. That said, it's my own responsibility to maintain courtesy and useful dialog in my own posts, and, out of a combination of irritation and a need to get to class, I failed to do so.

Since reconstruction involved, by definition, 'more serious' changes than those detailed in the refurbishment level that P3D was quoting, I made the assumption that the necessary reinforcement for increased armor would fall there; likewise the addition and expansion of barbettes, which could be moved or replaced under the previous level - the latter would be, I think, at least as complex as adding one save for not needing to order the new hardware. Adding torpedo bulkheads is explicitly mentioned as being possible in that kind of workup,

Armor and functional miscellaneous weight

Internal belts can be replaced or removed.  Torpedo Bulkheads can be added.

BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost is equal to BP cost.

like so.

If the Mods choose to rule that it's simply impossible to make these hulls live up to their tonnage, I'll accept that and find something else to do with them, possibly as amphibious assault ships or something. I trust the Moderator Council to decide out of a sense of game balance and what's literally practical, and if that's bad for me, I don't see any reason to raise a stink about it.

[P3D]

My main concern is that SS2 cannot simulate extensive reconstruction correctly at all - except of a few very limited cases. It always assumes a newbuilt structure that is 'optimized' for the given weight distribution. It cannot even simulate bulging a hull correctly. Thus the limitations.

Thus it can simulate accurately only:
- no changes in hull dimensions, displacement and not large changes in weight distribution: engines, limited armament/misc. weight). Or the proposed Hood reconstruction, removing upper belt and increasing deck armor.
- 'plugging' in a short section amidships or lengthening the bow, with some additional (not that trivial) calculations to justify the resulting displacement. This is with keeping beam and draught the same.

[Jefgte]

Looking a long time at the Bardiche drawing & SS. I could suggest a mixture of historical rebuilts -

Change the fore part from the bridge to the bow(Gneisenau)
On the new fore part, install 2T2x320 mm  (B superfiring).
320 could take the place of the 305 (Cavour).

-6T1x305 side turrets could be changed to 6T2x250 (Maoria Turrets).

You have certainly the possibility to increase the speed to about 25kts

Finaly
3T2x320 + 6T2x250 - 25kts...
a correct BB...


or... sell them!!!


Jef  ;)

[P3D]

Looking a long time at the Bardiche drawing & SS. I could suggest a mixture of historical rebuilts -

320 could take the place of the 305 (Cavour).

I disagree on this point. This suggest that the Cavour and her guns were overengineered. No one simmed their 12" battleships assuming the same weight as a 320mm guns (which weighed less after bored out), so it is not applicable in N3verse. The Italian 12"/46s were 5-11t heavier (63,500kg) than other 12"/45 guns (Skoda 52,650kg, UK 58,626kg, US 54,000kg, France 54,700kg).