Design Bureau Guangzhou

[Carthaginian]

(Don't know what the 'Argue' is)

Sorry I meant to type Argus. Skipped the S for an E, it seems.

I intend to come up with a merchant design.

Seems that Rock has ruled.

[Logi]

How would conversions work then, cause I was thinking a conversion.

Conversion as it an existing merchant ship taken and converted into an aircraft carrier.

[The Rock Doctor]

I'd be thinking that you sim a merchantman that is suitable for conversion (to the degree that any merchantman is suitable in 1919 for carrier ops).  Pay for it at merchant costs to reflect that you're buying it from some private owner.  Then pay for the refurbishment at full military costs.  That'd be my thinking.

[Ithekro]

That or convert an old warship (the Americans were looking into converting old Armored Cruisers and I think Predreadnaughts into small carriers at one point until the Treaties (and real world experiance with Lexington) changed that ideology to Fleet Carriers mainly).

[Logi]

Problem is, Ithekro, there aren't many old warships. The few we have are precious.

[Ithekro]

Tactical question....why does this China need an aircraft carrier?

I wouldn't imagine the fleet operating very far from home.  They should be within range of land based aircraft.  I don't image them going on offensive operations beyond Chinese waters where aircraft will be useful in this age.

As a scouting unit (yes that is the purpose of a carrier in 1920), you could just attack float planes to warships, or operate a seaplane tender or flying boats that have a much better range than most carrier based aircraft of the age.

Just curious what the idea is behind having a carrier in this fleet.

[Logi]

Torpedoing the torpedo boats. That is the main purpose. China is very vast. So is the coastline. It does not have air bases all along the coast. It can not deal with such.

A carrier is basically be a forward air base. Torpedoing boats have been proven possible and given the minimal resistance that should be offered by Tbs and their massive swarms, scoring a single hit will sinka  TB. One less TB is one less threat.

I do not have the tech required for warships to have aircraft.

[Logi]

In the mean time I was a bit bored and produced this:

Yichang, RRC Commerce Raider / Battlecruiser laid down 1920

Displacement:
   15,000 t light; 15,555 t standard; 16,528 t normal; 17,306 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   610.00 ft / 610.00 ft x 78.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
   185.93 m / 185.93 m x 23.77 m  x 7.32 m

Armament:
     6 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x3 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     16 - 1.60" / 40.6 mm guns (4x4 guns), 2.05lbs / 0.93kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 4,026 lbs / 1,826 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   320.00 ft / 97.54 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 81 % of normal length

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         1.00" / 25 mm

  - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 79,418 shp / 59,246 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,751 tons

Complement:
   728 - 947

Cost:
   £3.159 million / $12.636 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 503 tons, 3.0 %
   Armour: 5,451 tons, 33.0 %
      - Belts: 2,733 tons, 16.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 892 tons, 5.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,770 tons, 10.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 56 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 2,777 tons, 16.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,952 tons, 36.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,528 tons, 9.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 317 tons, 1.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20,412 lbs / 9,259 Kg = 30.7 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 16.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.507
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.82 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.70 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Stern:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.77 ft / 5.11 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 31,893 Square feet or 2,963 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 132 lbs/sq ft or 642 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.20
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[The Rock Doctor]

I think I'd want an anti-TB battery on that, but in all other respects, she'd be quite a pain in the ass for enemy blue water forces.

[Logi]

A sizeable Anti-TB Secondary Battery added for 1000tons (which also afforded the belt thickness increase to 13".

Yichang, RRC Commerce Raider / Battlecruiser laid down 1920

Displacement:
   16,000 t light; 16,616 t standard; 17,629 t normal; 18,439 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   610.00 ft / 610.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
   185.93 m / 185.93 m x 24.38 m  x 7.32 m

Armament:
      6 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x3 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      16 - 1.60" / 40.6 mm guns (4x4 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 4,590 lbs / 2,082 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   322.00 ft / 98.15 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 81 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 83,768 shp / 62,491 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,823 tons

Complement:
   764 - 994

Cost:
   £3.432 million / $13.729 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 574 tons, 3.3 %
   Armour: 5,854 tons, 33.2 %
      - Belts: 2,989 tons, 17.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 957 tons, 5.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,850 tons, 10.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 58 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 2,929 tons, 16.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,331 tons, 35.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,629 tons, 9.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 312 tons, 1.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     21,834 lbs / 9,904 Kg = 32.8 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 16.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.527
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.63 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.70 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Mid (50 %):      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Stern:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.45 ft / 5.32 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 33,328 Square feet or 3,096 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 135 lbs/sq ft or 658 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.24
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Sachmle]

Whatcha planin' on shootin' with that thing? If the name's right, I presume merchants. That makes the 11" overkill. By the armor, it looks like BBs and BCs, but for that 11" isn't enough. She's neither fish nor fowl IMO. Waste of tonnage for commerce warfare and not strong enough to fight Capital ships. She's be good vs a CA or an older BC, but there are cheaper ways to smite them. She's an overarmored Panzerschiffe.

[Carthaginian]

She's like the OTL 30's S & G... not able to fight a capital ship, but taking up the same amount of tonnage as a capital ship.

Killing merchants is the job of a traditional cruiser.
You either need to go 12"-13"/L45 guns to be able to hold your own against real BC's (and only older ones at that) or you meed to drop the caliber, size and cost of the ship to something more affordable. A 6"-8" cruiser would be just as effective against merchants, but you could field two or three on this displacement.

[Ithekro]

Torpedoing a TB sound rather difficult compared to just shooting it out of the water.  So a Chinese carrier is more fleet defense and forward airbase than the traditional fleet scout that basically just extends the range of the fleet's floatplanes, Flying boats, land based aircraft and airships.  It has the unusual roll of proactive torpedo boat screening vessel for the Navy.

Find a period torpedo plane and see how many you can fit inside the hanger of the carrier should do the trick.  I had a few carriers designed for Wesworld and they didn't quite fit the standard calculation for numbers of planes in the hanger (it was close), and that was with mostly folding wings around 1930.

[Nobody]

Will China have 1920 engines by then? According to your tech list china only has 1916 engines and is not even developing the next generation.

[Logi]

Torpedoing a TB sound rather difficult compared to just shooting it out of the water.  So a Chinese carrier is more fleet defense and forward airbase than the traditional fleet scout that basically just extends the range of the fleet's floatplanes, Flying boats, land based aircraft and airships.  It has the unusual roll of proactive torpedo boat screening vessel for the Navy.

The planes have a large range than the guns on my ship. That said, I also do not have many large ships hence, any fight against a TB via gun will be too close to torpedo range to be of comfort. It is better to try to take care of the TBs before they close in.

And yes, you mostly have the role of the Carrier in the Chinese navy right.

Will China have 1920 engines by then? According to your tech list china only has 1916 engines and is not even developing the next generation.

Probably in 1921, but as far as I can tell, that doesn't change much in the design.