Iberian PDN Upgrade Project

[miketr]

Looking things over Pelayo would end up with about 140 feet of space between B and Y barbettes.  Anyone have any info on size of machinery space?

[Guinness]

Using exactly one example, USS Utah for which Friedman has both a cross section and an inboard profile, I get ~ 4896 sq feet for the boiler rooms, and 2919 sq feet for the machinery space. That works out to about 3.5 sq. feet per SHP.

Boiler room beam is ~ 48 feet, turbine room beam is ~ 44 feet (to give you an idea). Lengths are 102 feet and 69.5 feet respectively.

I wouldn't go by those figures necessarily (it is, after all, just one ship and simplifies quite a bit), but it will give you some idea of feasibility.

[miketr]

Also USS Utah is an older BB and one would expect a later design to be able to pack more machinery power per square foot.  I think that the South Dakota's had a very cramped machinery space for example.

Pelayo would have has a total space to work with of...

total 91.5 beam and total 140 of length. 

One thing is I am trying to think what to do with a AC only able to do about 20 knots.  I can only get about 22 out of the hull per SS, and this requires massive lengthing of the hull (10% total).

[Tanthalas]

Im streaching the Rohinium Protodreads 10% but they will still only make 20 knots... Course im adding another 12/48 to them.

[The Rock Doctor]

Mike, I mean just swapping in a twin 250 for each former twin 280.  No additional turrets or triples involved.

The Pelayos come out as less impressive ships, but at least they have a seven gun (2x2 and 3x1) broadside in theory.

[miketr]

I think this is the final version of the reconstruction for the oldest PDN's.

Remove the 280mm turrets so their guns can be stolen for the Alfonso's, build new triple turret 250mm's in there place from the casement mounts.
Take a pair of 250mm's turrets from the Alfonso's.
Replace the VTE machinery with four 5,500 SHP diesels.

My issues with the re-design.

I suspect that three 250mm's will fit in a barbette that held two 280's; I am not positive
Question on the engines is out there VTE to Diesel along with the issue of engine space for diesels no matter what SS says.  
 
Needs

Will need to design a new triple 250mm L45
Need to research capital ship diesels

The above problems aside I REALLY like the look of the rebuild.  It looks cool...  

Michael

Pelayo (reconstruction) Rev.C, Iberia Battleship laid down 1897 (Engine 1922)

Displacement:
   12,701 t light; 13,312 t standard; 14,386 t normal; 15,246 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   406.87 ft / 403.54 ft x 91.86 ft x 22.64 ft (normal load)
   124.01 m / 123.00 m x 28.00 m  x 6.90 m

Armament:
      6 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (2x3 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1897 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (2x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1897 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 5,599 lbs / 2,540 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 98

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.0" / 280 mm   265.78 ft / 81.01 m   11.52 ft / 3.51 m
   Ends:   5.91" / 150 mm   137.73 ft / 41.98 m   11.52 ft / 3.51 m
   Upper:   8.66" / 220 mm   265.78 ft / 81.01 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.84" / 250 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      7.87" / 200 mm
   2nd:   9.84" / 250 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      7.87" / 200 mm
   3rd:   2.95" / 75 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      2.95" / 75 mm
   4th:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 10.24" / 260 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 22,002 shp / 16,413 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 15,350nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,934 tons

Complement:
   656 - 853

Cost:
   £1.137 million / $4.548 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 700 tons, 4.9 %
   Armour: 5,510 tons, 38.3 %
      - Belts: 2,721 tons, 18.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,178 tons, 8.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,481 tons, 10.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 130 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 746 tons, 5.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,366 tons, 37.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,685 tons, 11.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 379 tons, 2.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     24,420 lbs / 11,077 Kg = 51.2 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 4.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
   Metacentric height 5.8 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 16.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.27
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.600
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.39 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.09 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18.86 ft / 5.75 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.94 ft / 4.25 m
      - Stern:      13.94 ft / 4.25 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.27 ft / 4.65 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 57.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 27,113 Square feet or 2,519 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 760 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.16
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Long Range Radio 25 tons,
Fire Control 250 tons
Improved Crew Accommodation 75 tons
29 tons construction reserve.

Fixed SS

[Sachmle]

4 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (2x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1897 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring

Doesn't really match the pic. Nice otherwise.

[miketr]

Fixed any other issues?

[Jefgte]

Interresting rebuilt Mike.

Questions :
1- Are you sure that a rebuilt for a 20yo PDN is realy a good think ?
2- What is the futur job of that ship?
3- Did you reclass her as "Escort Cruiser" ?
4- What is the final cost ?


Jef

[miketr]

1) My goal is if at the end of it I come up with a warship that can at least do the role of a small cruiser in terms of escorting, show the flag, etc and cost less than 5 BP (IE the cost of a new built cruiser) I would call it a win.  This ship has a very respectable amount of firepower, ten 250mm guns on a broad side is a nice amount of firepower.  Its armor is good, even if its harvey steel instead of krupp cemented armor.  The decks will get 50mm or so of improved krupp cemented armor added and the turrets the same.  So the ships will be protected vs. anything short of capital ship firepower.

2) See above, convoy escort, second line mission (I could send her to India, Mexico and China as a show the flag and she would still be a respectable amount of firepower.  Her one big weakness is that there is NOTHING I can do to increase her speed anymore than I have.  Oh well no rebuild is going to be perfect.

3) I think I am going to reclass her as an Crucero Acorazado and break the armored cruiser down into two groups, 1st Class and 2nd Class Armored Cruisers.  The new 12" gun AC's become the 1st rate and all the 250mm gun ships become 2nd Class AC's. 

4) I will figure that out.  I need to figure out the cost to build a new 250mm triple turret for example.

[miketr]

Reconstruction of Pelayo Class Battleship into Armored Cruiser.

Base Reconstruction cost 12,641 t light = 1.26 BP + $3.16
Increase to light displacement 12,641 -> 12,700 = 0.059 BP + $0.059
Old Engines  2,375 tons = 0.356 BP + $0.356 (SCRAP)
New Engines 746 tons = 0.746 BP + $1.492
New Weapons
--New 250mm triple turrets
----564 tons armor  = 0.564 BP + $1.128
----358 tons guns (recylced) = 0.0 BP + $0.358
--Moved 250mm twin turrets
----326 tons armor (old armor) 500 (new armor) = 0.174 BP + $0.348 + $0.326 (old turret)
----238 tons guns (recycled) = 0.0 BP + $0.238
--New 150mm single mounts
----93 tons armor = 0.093 BP + $0.186
----103 tons guns = 0.103 BP + $0.206
--New 40mm single mounts
----0 tons armor = 0.0 BP + $0.0
----1 tons guns = 0.001 BP + $0.002
New Armor
--Deck 790 tons = 0.790 BP +  $0.790
FC 250 tons = 0.250 BP + $0.250

total 4.25 BP and $8.187

I think I might just do this crazy idea, will have to think it over.

[Tanthalas]

slightly cheaper than my own reconstructions, I would say go for it.

[ctwaterman]

Its right in line with the Reconstructions I have been looking at for all 5 of my Remaining 10" Armed Command Cruisers.

I get a nice slow heavily armed and Armored Cruiser which realisticaly is useful for Convoy Escort and working in defense of the Battle Line Vs Enemy Cruisers and Destroyers.   Not a great ship but given my budget restraints and Iberias I think these ships are all worth keeping.

Charles

[miketr]

OK thanks for the feed back everyone.  I will work on the Alfonso Reconstruction which will replace the wing 250mm twin turrets with single 280mm guns giving them a uniform broadside of six 280mm guns in four turrets.

[Jefgte]

...  I will work on the Alfonso Reconstruction which will replace the wing 250mm twin turrets with single 280mm guns giving them a uniform broadside of six 280mm guns in four turrets.

With the same FC  ;)


Jef