new Orange ships and projects

[Nobody]

Still searching for a platform to use these 42 cm/45s. What do you think?
Disadvantage: I would have to develop single mounts as well.

BM-1, Orange Monitor laid down 1922

Displacement:
   10.000 t light; 10.571 t standard; 11.070 t normal; 11.469 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393,69 ft / 390,42 ft x 78,74 ft (Bulges 85,30 ft) x 19,69 ft (normal load)
   120,00 m / 119,00 m x 24,00 m (Bulges 26,00 m)  x 6,00 m

Armament:
      2 - 16,54" / 420 mm guns in single mounts, 2.314,85lbs / 1.050,00kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns (2x2 guns), 105,82lbs / 48,00kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      6 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1922 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 5.142 lbs / 2.332 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11,8" / 300 mm   229,66 ft / 70,00 m   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Ends:   5,12" / 130 mm   160,76 ft / 49,00 m   10,66 ft / 3,25 m
   Upper:   5,12" / 130 mm   229,66 ft / 70,00 m   6,56 ft / 2,00 m
     Main Belt covers 90% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      2,36" / 60 mm   229,66 ft / 70,00 m   18,54 ft / 5,65 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15,7" / 400 mm   5,91" / 150 mm      15,7" / 400 mm
   2nd:   4,72" / 120 mm   3,15" / 80 mm      4,72" / 120 mm
   3rd:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3,15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 11,81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12.436 shp / 9.278 Kw = 18,00 kts
   Range 7.870nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 898 tons

Complement:
   539 - 701

Cost:
   £2,559 million / $10,238 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 630 tons, 5,7%
   Armour: 4.593 tons, 41,5%
      - Belts: 2.333 tons, 21,1%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 372 tons, 3,4%
      - Armament: 462 tons, 4,2%
      - Armour Deck: 1.299 tons, 11,7%
      - Conning Tower: 126 tons, 1,1%
   Machinery: 422 tons, 3,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4.030 tons, 36,4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.070 tons, 9,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 325 tons, 2,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     16.663 lbs / 7.558 Kg = 7,4 x 16,5 " / 420 mm shells or 4,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,16
   Metacentric height 4,6 ft / 1,4 m
   Roll period: 16,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,29
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,06

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,591
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4,58 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,76 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,72 ft / 0,22 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14,44 ft / 4,40 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   12,47 ft / 3,80 m
      - Mid (50%):      11,48 ft / 3,50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   11,48 ft / 3,50 m
      - Stern:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,11 ft / 3,69 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 92,3%
   Waterplane Area: 22.296 Square feet or 2.071 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 140 lbs/sq ft or 683 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,94
      - Longitudinal: 1,63
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

misc:
250 t FC
25 t Radio
25 t "Radar"
25 t Sonar

[Jefgte]

The probability of a hit is very low with 2 guns.
IMO, test with 2T2x343.

[Nobody]

It's a monitor Jef, it's not supposed to produce volume of fire, but employ a few very powerful siege guns. Compare them to the British Lord Clive class especially their 18" version.

Oh and here comes the smallest possible solution:
Mobile Battery, Orange Monitor laid down 1922

Displacement:
   1.000 t light; 1.153 t standard; 1.168 t normal; 1.180 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   170,92 ft / 164,04 ft x 39,37 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
   52,10 m / 50,00 m x 12,00 m  x 3,00 m

Armament:
      1 - 16,54" / 420 mm guns in single mounts, 2.314,85lbs / 1.050,00kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading gun in deck mount
     on centreline
      1 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft
      2 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 2.332 lbs / 1.058 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   1,18" / 30 mm   164,04 ft / 50,00 m   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 154% of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,50" / 38 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1,18" / 30 mm, Conning tower: 1,97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 438 shp / 326 Kw = 10,00 kts
   Range 1.000nm at 8,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 27 tons

Complement:
   99 - 129

Cost:
   £0,751 million / $3,003 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 285 tons, 24,4%
   Armour: 225 tons, 19,3%
      - Belts: 94 tons, 8,1%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 19 tons, 1,6%
      - Armour Deck: 107 tons, 9,2%
      - Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0,4%
   Machinery: 8 tons, 0,7%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 464 tons, 39,8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 168 tons, 14,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 17 tons, 1,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     410 lbs / 186 Kg = 0,2 x 16,5 " / 420 mm shells or 0,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,77
   Metacentric height 3,1 ft / 1,0 m
   Roll period: 9,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 84 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,55
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,67

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,643
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4,17 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 12,81 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2,33 ft / 0,71 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      7,87 ft / 2,40 m
      - Forecastle (10%):   6,56 ft / 2,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      6,56 ft / 2,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (5%):   6,56 ft / 2,00 m
      - Stern:      7,22 ft / 2,20 m
      - Average freeboard:   6,63 ft / 2,02 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 183,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 62,1%
   Waterplane Area: 4.916 Square feet or 457 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 46%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 74 lbs/sq ft or 363 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,87
      - Longitudinal: 3,41
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

The "does not fully cover... message is kind of funny, since the "main belt" covers the entire hull (and from 2 meters below the waterline up to the deck no less).

[maddox]

In theory that means that the ship is too big for the hull.

[Jefgte]

Ok, that's a 1920 Assault Ship.

For me, a Monitor is a little BB able to fire on an other ship & stronger than a CA.
She need a BC or a BB to be sink.
Predreadnought  could be compared to Monitor.

or this one





Jef

[Guinness]

The does not fully cover... message means that the machinery and magazines don't fit below the waterline. This isn't in and of itself a problem, but it probably means that belt and deck armor aren't worth the trouble. You might also try making the main armament superfiring.

And Jef: Here's monitor defined (by wikipedia in this case, but I think it's accurate):

A monitor was a type of relatively small warship which was neither fast nor strongly armoured but carried disproportionately large guns and was used by some navies from the 1860s until the end of the Second World War.

and later

In the 20th century the term 'monitor' was revived for shallow-draft armoured shore bombardment vessels, particularly those of the British Royal Navy.

[Jefgte]

I agree with wiki def.

But it is not forbiden to rework the concept & expand the possibilities of that kind of ship.
(...A kind of Sverige)


Jef

[Sachmle]

Jef, you're thinking of a Coast Defense Ship. Like a mini-BB or super-Predreadnought. Monitor's are mostly for shore bombardment from the sea side, usually the weaker side of most land forts.

[Jefgte]

Yes, the monitor concept with just shore bombardement is, for me a waste use of BPs.
Epand the job of the monitor to a light BB is easy.
Like I wrote early, use some of these monitors in the battle line could be useful to engage ACs or small BCs.
Add 6 or 12x275 guns in the battleline could be useful & not too expensive.

Your last C120A Panzerkreuzer 10000t-31kts-4T2x210 could be certainly engaged by  a 7000t-22kts-2T3x275...
& the winner is...???


Jef

[Nobody]

I have given it another try to design a treaty conform battlecruiser. It looks kind of promising to me, however how am I supposed to rise the seakeeping to acceptable levels? (The freeboard is already higher than it OTL ships)

BC 1922, Orange Battlecruiser laid down 1922

Displacement:
    35.350 t light; 37.189 t standard; 40.910 t normal; 43.887 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
    715,22 ft / 715,22 ft x 108,27 ft (Bulges 113,19 ft) x 32,15 ft (normal load)
    218,00 m / 218,00 m x 33,00 m (Bulges 34,50 m)  x 9,80 m

Armament:
      6 - 16,54" / 420 mm guns (3x2 guns), 2.314,85lbs / 1.050,00kg shells, 1922 Model
      Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
      on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      2 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns (1x2 guns), 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1922 Model
      Breech loading guns in a deck mount with hoist
      on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
      8 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1922 Model
      Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
      on side, all amidships
      6 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1922 Model
      Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
      on side, all amidships
      16 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1922 Model
      Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
      on side, evenly spread
    Weight of broadside 15.081 lbs / 6.841 kg
    Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:        Width (max)    Length (avg)        Height (avg)
    Main:    5,91" / 150 mm    464,90 ft / 141,70 m    19,69 ft / 6,00 m
    Ends:    3,94" / 100 mm    250,30 ft / 76,29 m    12,50 ft / 3,81 m
    Upper:    3,94" / 100 mm    464,90 ft / 141,70 m    9,19 ft / 2,80 m
      Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
        1,97" / 50 mm    464,90 ft / 141,70 m    28,90 ft / 8,81 m

   - Gun armour:    Face (max)    Other gunhouse (avg)    Barbette/hoist (max)
    Main:    15,7" / 400 mm    7,87" / 200 mm        15,0" / 380 mm
    2nd:    5,91" / 150 mm    3,94" / 100 mm        5,91" / 150 mm
    3rd:    5,91" / 150 mm    3,94" / 100 mm        5,91" / 150 mm
    4th:    1,18" / 30 mm          -                  -
    5th:    0,39" / 10 mm          -                  -

   - Armour deck: 5,51" / 140 mm, Conning tower: 14,96" / 380 mm

Machinery:
    Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
    Geared drive, 4 shafts, 159.476 shp / 118.969 Kw = 30,10 kts
    Range 5.000nm at 21,00 kts
    Bunker at max displacement = 6.698 tons

Complement:
    1.437 - 1.869

Cost:
    £9,665 million / $38,661 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
    Armament: 1.844 tons, 4,5%
    Armour: 13.186 tons, 32,2%
       - Belts: 3.535 tons, 8,6%
       - Torpedo bulkhead: 979 tons, 2,4%
       - Armament: 2.778 tons, 6,8%
       - Armour Deck: 5.511 tons, 13,5%
       - Conning Tower: 383 tons, 0,9%
    Machinery: 5.410 tons, 13,2%
    Hull, fittings & equipment: 14.511 tons, 35,5%
    Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.560 tons, 13,6%
    Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
    Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
      45.678 lbs / 20.719 Kg = 20,2 x 16,5 " / 420 mm shells or 7,4 torpedoes
    Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
    Metacentric height 6,7 ft / 2,1 m
    Roll period: 18,3 seconds
    Steadiness    - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
            - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,37
    Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,85

Hull form characteristics:
    Hull has a flush deck
    Block coefficient: 0,550
    Length to Beam Ratio: 6,32 : 1
    'Natural speed' for length: 26,74 kts
    Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
    Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
    Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
    Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
    Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
       - Stem:        29,43 ft / 8,97 m
       - Forecastle (25%):    18,73 ft / 5,71 m
       - Mid (60%):        18,73 ft / 5,71 m
       - Quarterdeck (20%):    18,73 ft / 5,71 m
       - Stern:        18,73 ft / 5,71 m
       - Average freeboard:    19,80 ft / 6,04 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
    Space    - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96,6%
        - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 134,2%
    Waterplane Area: 54.047 Square feet or 5.021 Square metres
    Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104%
    Structure weight / hull surface area: 196 lbs/sq ft or 956 Kg/sq metre
    Hull strength (Relative):
        - Cross-sectional: 0,96
        - Longitudinal: 1,23
        - Overall: 0,98
    Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
    Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
    Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
    Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather


Suggestions are desperately needed (ignore the composite strength, it can be easily adjusted by removing some armor)

[Laertes]

I came up against the same problem when designing the BLU Canterbury. I solved it with a deeper keel and higher cruising speed - neither of which I'd *expected* as solutions, but they seemed to work.

[Valles]

*eyes 15cm belt* Removing armor?!

[maddox]

Why do I feel Like I'm looking at a better armed Furious?

13" gun armor sounds as a possible way to gain some structural strength.

Oh, end-armor plays havok with seakeeping...

[Nobody]

*eyes 15cm belt* Removing armor?!

Because (main) belt armor improves seekeeping, as does upper belt. End belt however reduces it (thanks for pointing out, didn't know that maddox).
Besides, the belts are supposed to make the sip immune to destroyer and hopefully light cruiser fire.

[P3D]

The freeboard looks pretty historical, but if you need more seakeeping, increasing length to 800' will work wonders.