Valeur refit.

[maddox]

The 2 Valeur Class battleships, also called semi dreadnaughts, are ready for at least an overhaul.

But, are the ships themselfs good enough? 
Only 17.5 Ktons, main armament 6 340mm guns.  Armor 11"  only 20 Kts.

Oh well. 
An refit.
Removal of all tertiary and quartiary armament, and replacement with a 6 AA guns.
Adding of Fire control, ERADe and Marconi equipment.
10% oil firing for a sleight increase in range.

Valeur, French Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909) refit 1917.

Displacement:
   17.500 t light; 18.518 t standard; 20.285 t normal; 21.699 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   498,69 ft / 492,13 ft x 88,58 ft x 27,89 ft (normal load)
   152,00 m / 150,00 m x 27,00 m  x 8,50 m

Armament:
      6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      12 - 7,68" / 195 mm guns (6x2 guns), 226,24lbs / 102,62kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 10.661 lbs / 4.836 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11,0" / 279 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   11,29 ft / 3,44 m
   Ends:   8,00" / 203 mm   172,00 ft / 52,43 m   11,29 ft / 3,44 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   500,00 ft / 152,40 m   25,00 ft / 7,62 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11,0" / 279 mm   9,00" / 229 mm      9,00" / 229 mm
   2nd:   8,00" / 203 mm   5,00" / 127 mm      5,00" / 127 mm
   3rd:   1,00" / 25 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 11,00" / 279 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 24.157 shp / 18.021 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 6.400nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.181 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   849 - 1.104

Cost:
   £1,821 million / $7,286 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.240 tons, 6,1%
   Armour: 7.320 tons, 36,1%
      - Belts: 3.249 tons, 16,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 694 tons, 3,4%
      - Armament: 2.038 tons, 10,0%
      - Armour Deck: 1.162 tons, 5,7%
      - Conning Tower: 176 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 1.196 tons, 5,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7.344 tons, 36,2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.785 tons, 13,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     27.026 lbs / 12.259 Kg = 22,5 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 5,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,08
   Metacentric height 4,9 ft / 1,5 m
   Roll period: 16,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,63
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,40

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,584
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,56 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26,90 ft / 8,20 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      16,40 ft / 5,00 m (15,52 ft / 4,73 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   15,52 ft / 4,73 m
      - Stern:      15,52 ft / 4,73 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,69 ft / 5,39 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87,7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117,6%
   Waterplane Area: 31.410 Square feet or 2.918 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 169 lbs/sq ft or 823 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,93
      - Longitudinal: 1,93
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Refit 1917

400 tons  misc weigth

250 tons FC
25 tons Large Marconi
25 tons ERADe
50 tons crew comfort
50 tons reserve

[Sachmle]

Could probably replace the end belts w/ thinner ones now that range of battle has increased sufficiently. I'd say 3.5-4" should be thick enough. Use the extra weight to do whatever with

[Guinness]

I think a minimal refit of replacement of the 3rd and 4th batteries with something modern and useful and oil firing is fine. For a nation more pressed for capital ships (like the CSA) something more radical might be called for, but for France, just keeping them up to date is probably enough.

You've heard my views on the 195mm gun before... Replacing that with something less unwieldy and with a higher rate of fire might also be a worthwhile exercise.

[maddox]

This more interesting then?

Valeur, French Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   16.838 t light; 17.836 t standard; 19.569 t normal; 20.956 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   498,69 ft / 492,13 ft x 88,58 ft x 26,90 ft (normal load)
   152,00 m / 150,00 m x 27,00 m  x 8,20 m

Armament:
      6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      18 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (6x3 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 9.613 lbs / 4.360 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11,0" / 279 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   11,29 ft / 3,44 m
   Ends:   8,00" / 203 mm   172,00 ft / 52,43 m   11,29 ft / 3,44 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   500,00 ft / 152,40 m   25,00 ft / 7,62 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11,0" / 279 mm   9,00" / 229 mm      9,00" / 229 mm
   2nd:   4,00" / 102 mm   2,00" / 51 mm      5,00" / 127 mm
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 11,00" / 279 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 23.672 shp / 17.659 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 6.400nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.120 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   826 - 1.075

Cost:
   £1,668 million / $6,673 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.089 tons, 5,6%
   Armour: 7.057 tons, 36,1%
      - Belts: 3.249 tons, 16,6%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 694 tons, 3,5%
      - Armament: 1.780 tons, 9,1%
      - Armour Deck: 1.162 tons, 5,9%
      - Conning Tower: 172 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 1.172 tons, 6,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7.120 tons, 36,4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.731 tons, 14,0%
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     29.059 lbs / 13.181 Kg = 24,2 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 5,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,13
   Metacentric height 5,3 ft / 1,6 m
   Roll period: 16,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,59
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,52

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,584
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,56 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27,89 ft / 8,50 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   20,67 ft / 6,30 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,39 ft / 5,30 m (16,50 ft / 5,03 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,50 ft / 5,03 m
      - Stern:      16,50 ft / 5,03 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,67 ft / 5,69 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83,4%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128,0%
   Waterplane Area: 31.410 Square feet or 2.918 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 163 lbs/sq ft or 797 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,92
      - Longitudinal: 1,99
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Refit 1916
Secundary armament of 6 twin 195's changed for a new to build tripple 140mm turret.
all the rest is plated over, removed and exchanged for 6 37mm AA guns.
Magazine layout for main guns changed, 10 more shells per gun carried.

Draught reduced and freeboard increased with .3m
Trim changed to the new setting.
The increased seakeeping ability will keep these 2 ships at their current posting. French Canada.

400 tons  misc weigth

250 tons FC
25 tons Large Marconi
25 tons ERADe
50 tons crew comfort
50 tons reserve

[Jefgte]

That's what I would wrote  :D
Remove the 195mm & install 140mm better against TBs

Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,52

you could perhaps change the engine & increase the speed to 22kts


Jef ;)

[maddox]

To expensive.  I prefer to build a new ship with a better-longer hullform then.

[maddox]

Scrapping the ships and retain the guns and turrets for other applications is an option.

If only the 340mm and 195mm turrets are retained, the scrap value of these overgunned semi BB's still is $2,5 and 2.5BP .

The 195mm turrets could be used for a cruiser, and the 340mm turrets for a BC.
Or both for coastal defences.


An overhaul will cost Glorious France $1.75, but will leave 2 seaworthy, overgunned, slow semi BB's.

But a refit the ship, like removing all the small guns,  will cost at the same and gives 95 tons of misc weight in place.-and that's counting on the removal of the 105mm casemated guns.

A more extensive refurbisment like the latest proposal, will cost $5 and .5BP.
Re-engine the ship, like Jef proposes, and going 100% oil fired will add $5 and 2.5 BP (and that's with the scrap value discount)

But then it stays a semi dreadnaught with a rubbish gun lay out.

Valeur, French Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   16.909 t light; 17.851 t standard; 19.569 t normal; 20.943 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   498,69 ft / 492,13 ft x 88,58 ft x 26,90 ft (normal load)
   152,00 m / 150,00 m x 27,00 m  x 8,20 m

Armament:
      6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      18 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (6x3 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 9.613 lbs / 4.360 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11,0" / 279 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   11,29 ft / 3,44 m
   Ends:   8,00" / 203 mm   172,00 ft / 52,43 m   11,29 ft / 3,44 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   500,00 ft / 152,40 m   25,00 ft / 7,62 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11,0" / 279 mm   9,00" / 229 mm      9,00" / 229 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      5,00" / 127 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 11,00" / 279 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 31.373 shp / 23.405 Kw = 21,50 kts
   Range 6.800nm at 15,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.092 tons

Complement:
   826 - 1.075

Cost:
   £1,670 million / $6,681 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.089 tons, 5,6%
   Armour: 6.960 tons, 35,6%
      - Belts: 3.249 tons, 16,6%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 694 tons, 3,5%
      - Armament: 1.683 tons, 8,6%
      - Armour Deck: 1.162 tons, 5,9%
      - Conning Tower: 172 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 1.169 tons, 6,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7.291 tons, 37,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.660 tons, 13,6%
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     28.381 lbs / 12.873 Kg = 23,7 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 5,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,08
   Metacentric height 4,8 ft / 1,5 m
   Roll period: 17,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,60
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,28

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,584
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,56 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27,56 ft / 8,40 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   20,34 ft / 6,20 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,06 ft / 5,20 m (16,17 ft / 4,93 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,17 ft / 4,93 m
      - Stern:      16,17 ft / 4,93 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,34 ft / 5,59 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125,6%
   Waterplane Area: 31.410 Square feet or 2.918 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 818 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 2,02
      - Overall: 1,03
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[The Rock Doctor]

They're decent enough hulls for station command functions in places like French Polynesia.  First generation dreadnoughts would be challenged to defeat them once modernized. 

[maddox]

The 11" belt and the 2" deck argue against that.  These ships, on their own are BB bait. And even together the Valeurs ain't worth 1 Bretagne.

But, just a new layer of paint, making sure all the greasenipples are worked over, and they can do the task for another decade.
Their task currently, North west Atlantic flagholder. More friendlier waters for france ain't to be found- if you discount the weather-

[P3D]

Upgrade and installing FC is a must if you want to keep them in service. As France is willing to buy Russian PDNs of even less belt. Converting to oil firing might not be crucial, swapping the whole engine would be waste of money for 1.5 knots gain.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I'd give them FC and that's it. Powerful station ships. Preferrably used together.
Borys

[maddox]

Giving them FC- what is of limited use, because all those turrets and casemated guns are in each others firing angle- would mean I need to find 250 tons somewere.

The only way to do that is to remove a lot of guns. And even then. (Like calculated, only 95 tons in that operation.)

So, the best thing I could do, if I want to retain the ships, is toroughly modernise them.
For that money and BP, I can build a Demarce.

I can replace those 2 semi dreadnaughts with 6 Demarce IIIb's or even a further elaboration of that class.