3 Bavarian Designs

Kaiser Kirk · June 03, 2009, 01:09:45 AM

Having been reminded that I neglected something on my budget, I revisited it, and found other issues, eventually redoing most of it. The results are that I 'found' some funds and a BP, and realized I will dock space once things launch half-way through, so I am considering building something(s).

First is a light cruiser. Second is a torpedo boat. Third is the gun boat concept I mentioned once.

For the light cruiser, I expect NEDS will be a concern.
However if you look at the deck-level guns, you have 12 guns- the same as the OTL 113m HMS Gem class.
The additional weapons are in casements, and the ship has a high freeboard to accommodate those. Against the expected opposition of TB/DD/CLs in the Adriatic they should be serviceable.Service outside the Adriatic/Med may argue for dispensing with the 105mm battery and moving the 150mm up.

Armor is light, but should defeat TB/DDs and guard the vitals from small shells and large splinters. Realistically, it should be thinner at the ends and thicker in the middle.
Hull form is beefy, making them slower than they could be. That is a deliberate design 'error' rather than trotting out a 10:1 design. I can go that route with the next vessel :)

Quote
Breslau, Bavaria Light Cruiser laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
4,996 t light; 5,307 t standard; 5,932 t normal; 6,432 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 52.49 ft x 19.36 ft (normal load)
120.00 m / 120.00 m x 16.00 m x 5.90 m

Armament:
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 38.36lbs / 17.40kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
2 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 1,514 lbs / 687 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 360.89 ft / 110.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 141 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.18" / 30 mm, Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 3 shafts, 46,594 shp / 34,759 Kw = 28.25 kts
Range 5,000nm at 12.50 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,126 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
337 - 439

Cost:
£1.011 million / $4.044 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 190 tons, 3.2 %
Armour: 745 tons, 12.6 %
- Belts: 371 tons, 6.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 53 tons, 0.9 %
- Armour Deck: 306 tons, 5.2 %
- Conning Tower: 14 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,023 tons, 34.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,888 tons, 31.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 936 tons, 15.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 2.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,876 lbs / 1,758 Kg = 37.6 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.29
Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 12.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.28
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.519
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.85 ft / 6.66 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.24 ft / 5.56 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.24 ft / 5.56 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.24 ft / 5.56 m
- Stern: 18.24 ft / 5.56 m
- Average freeboard: 18.53 ft / 5.65 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 138.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.6 %
Waterplane Area: 14,012 Square feet or 1,302 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 92 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 80 lbs/sq ft or 389 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.89
- Longitudinal: 2.67
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Miscellaneous weight :
100 tons fire control
12 tons torpedoes + reloads
25 tons long range wireless.
13 tons unallocated.
---
150

The torpedo boat I was considering for next year pushes L:B to the edge.
Strictly meant for operations in the Adriatic.

Quote
T19, Bavaria Torpedo gun boat laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
186 t light; 203 t standard; 242 t normal; 273 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
196.85 ft / 196.85 ft x 16.40 ft x 6.56 ft (normal load)
60.00 m / 60.00 m x 5.00 m x 2.00 m

Armament:
2 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
1 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
Weight of broadside 72 lbs / 33 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300
3 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

- Conning tower: 0.39" / 10 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 1 shaft, 4,486 shp / 3,346 Kw = 24.82 kts
Range 2,750nm at 12.50 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 70 tons

Complement:
29 - 39

Cost:
£0.047 million / $0.190 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 9 tons, 3.7 %
Armour: 3 tons, 1.3 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 1.2 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 107 tons, 44.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 64 tons, 26.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 56 tons, 23.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 3 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
58 lbs / 27 Kg = 1.7 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.32
Metacentric height 0.5 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 9.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.42 ft / 4.70 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 12.11 ft / 3.69 m
- Mid (50 %): 4.10 ft / 1.25 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 4.10 ft / 1.25 m
- Stern: 4.10 ft / 1.25 m
- Average freeboard: 7.17 ft / 2.18 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 174.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 26.4 %
Waterplane Area: 1,880 Square feet or 175 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 56 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 16 lbs/sq ft or 78 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.48
- Overall: 0.55
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor

Trial speed : 29kts.

Last the torpedo gun boat.
This may be more useful for night intruder actions in addition to general surface work in the upper adriatic.
For the 1.5 knot difference, it seems attractive. Range is full speed for 14 hours, allowing full throttle all-night runs.

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TGB-1, Bavaria Torpedo Gun Boat laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
195 t light; 204 t standard; 230 t normal; 250 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
198.49 ft / 198.49 ft x 18.04 ft x 5.61 ft (normal load)
60.50 m / 60.50 m x 5.50 m x 1.71 m

Armament:
1 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading gun in deck mount
on centreline aft
1 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.17lbs / 1.44kg shells, 1916 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline forward, 1 raised gun
4 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1916 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 39 lbs / 17 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
3 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
2nd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Conning tower: 0.79" / 20 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators plus batteries,
Electric motors, 1 shaft, 3,327 shp / 2,482 Kw = 23.25 kts
Range 336nm at 23.25 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 47 tons

Complement:
29 - 38

Cost:
£0.040 million / $0.160 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 5 tons, 2.1 %
Armour: 3 tons, 1.2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 0.9 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 97 tons, 42.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 68 tons, 29.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 35 tons, 15.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 23 tons, 10.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
74 lbs / 33 Kg = 2.1 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 0.5 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 10.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.23
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.34

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.09 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.58 ft / 4.75 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 11.58 ft / 3.53 m (6.92 ft / 2.11 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 6.92 ft / 2.11 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 6.92 ft / 2.11 m
- Stern: 6.92 ft / 2.11 m
- Average freeboard: 8.17 ft / 2.49 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 163.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 40.1 %
Waterplane Area: 2,085 Square feet or 194 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 70 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 15 lbs/sq ft or 75 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.71
- Overall: 0.56
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

This version is slightly larger and slower, but can cram a full platoon of soldiers on board for raids.

Misc wt:
3t torpedoes
5t electric batteries
15t troop capacity (60 troops)

Trial Speed : 27.45

Designed as a motor gun boat.

A hotchkiss 47mm revolver cannon forward is raised in "B" to fire over the raked bow. The aft 105mm is located in "X" with the torpedoes in "Y". MGs in 1-4 provide AP fire.
Light armor is intended to keep the crew functioning in gun battles.

A diesel was chosen as boilers have a nasty habit of exploding or merely venting scalding steam when punctured, making a poor choice for a vessel that might get raked by machinegunfire. Steam engines also have the problem of being slow to bring up power, while a diesel can simply throttle up.

Borys · June 03, 2009, 04:48:20 AM

Ahoj!
I believe some premises made to be too optimistic.
The cruiser looks like a floating bomb - with all the unprotected 6" ammunition.
I consider the idea of putting a platoon (40 men?) on a 60 metre warship to be slightly suspect.

I will not comment on 4" guns on 200 tone ships ...

Borys

The Rock Doctor · June 03, 2009, 06:38:06 AM

I think the smaller craft need to be somewhat faster to really be of value.

Kaiser Kirk · June 03, 2009, 11:45:20 AM

TB Guns :
Borys, If you choose not to comment on something, I will just forge ahead, ignorant of the grounds or validity of the objection.

On the TBs, I wasn't sure as to which gun size to go with, the 88mm or 105mm. The historic RN vessel in this size range had the 76mm and twin 57mm. 105mm does not seem an enourmous leap. Two of them is/was dubious, which is why the latter had the 47mm.

TB troops
On troop capacity, yeah I may have overdone it.
Hard to say what a "good number" is. . The LCIs were obviously built for it, cramming 180 troops in 48m. The Mayflower shipped 130 folks across the Atlantic on 30m. An M113 APC manages to fit 13 folks in a space 4.8m x 2.6m. A USMC LVT-7 fits 28 men in a vehical 7.94m x 3.27m, however in both these latter cases the troop compartment only takes up a portion of the vehicle. The troop compartment appears to be about 5.5mx3.5m cramming 24 troops in.

Using some of Maddox's methodology from the Persian destroyer discussion.
12m Length of forcastle
10m Length of a 105 L40 gun 4.5m 1 meter separation between the guns (2 guns)
4m Minimalistic bridge/deckhouse/Forward Funnel 4 meter
2m Midships funnel 2 meter
7m Length of an "avarage" 21" torpedo 6 meter +1 meter
2m Aft funnel 2 meter
9m Quarter deck
46m Total
Leaving 14m for troops, which packed in like the LVT-7 would be 61. I'm calling for fewer. I guess I didn't over do it. That's presuming they are all above decks and competing with the guns and torps.

TB Speed.
As for speed, well, I found it difficult to get light craft up to high speeds without seakeeping dropping below 0.7. I am also presuming point of the the trial speed calculation is a better reflection of what they could comparitively do in good conditions. Compared to the best MTBs they are faster and longer ranged.
For fairly expendable craft meant for high speed dashes, and for night ops this would seem to be less of an issue. Unless they blunder into a destroyer with steam up, which they should see first, I would think they would be 'ok'.

Cruiser
On the cruiser, she has similar armor to the OTL Magdeburgs and Gem/Topaz class. I rather expect the main magazines to be below the armored deck. I would have gone with mount & hoist except I read some declaration against that, which means rate of fire for the deck 6" will drop, though the casements should do better. My attempt at an all 4" cruiser with the same general layout some time ago was shouted down as under armed due to the 4". So...4" under armed, 6" floating bomb.

Korpen · June 03, 2009, 12:20:17 PM

Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on June 03, 2009, 11:45:20 AM
Cruiser
On the cruiser, she has similar armor to the OTL Magdeburgs and Gem/Topaz class. I rather expect the main magazines to be below the armored deck. I would have gone with mount & hoist except I read some declaration against that, which means rate of fire for the deck 6" will drop, though the casements should do better. My attempt at an all 4" cruiser with the same general layout some time ago was shouted down as under armed due to the 4". So...4" under armed, 6" floating bomb.

I do not think anyone think mount & hoist is a bad idea on a cruiser that got armour. It is on unarmoured ships they get a bit pointless, as the magazines are not that much more protected then the deck lockers. So I think that mount & hoist is the way to got for the larger guns at least. As for "floating bomb", I think that the volatility of ammunition is somewhat exaggerated, and even if hit the powder in the driving charges will burn rather then explode as there will no build-up of pressure around a deck mounts like would happen in a magazine.

Quick side-sketch of how she could look, but note that I have not placed the 105mm guns raised, as I see little reason for it.

My biggest problem with her is the lack of minelaying capacity.

maddox · June 03, 2009, 12:39:04 PM

This cruiser has the tendicity of being a BIG pile of munition.

In size and speed she's about a Demarce II but with a lot more heavy guns.

The 25mm and 50 mm armoring can protect against the lighter guns of MTB's and secundaries of light cuisers, but won't help against anything over 5". (and the new French Tigre B destroyers use 140mm guns)

Munition storage.

12*200 =2400 150mm shells are a lot of munition to store. Each shell is +/- 600mm long.
Imagine each shell in a cradle that is square-for easier storage and handling . Meaning you have a compartiment 15 meter long, 1,2 meter wide and 1,8 meter high completely filled with shells.

And each shell has a propellant charge of 13.7 kg(not burst charge). Meaning there is 32.88 tons of cordite stored on top of this all.

I would exchange the 8 hull mounted casemate guns for 4 guns in 2 twin mount and hoists.

Korpen · June 03, 2009, 01:12:13 PM

Quote from: maddox on June 03, 2009, 12:39:04 PM
This cruiser has the tendicity of being a BIG pile of munition.

In size and speed she's about a Demarce II but with a lot more heavy guns.

You have never looked at HMS Groningen have you?

maddox · June 03, 2009, 01:23:35 PM

Groningen is 1000 tons smaller and 5 main guns less as wel 8 years older than the Bavarian design.

The Demarce II uses the weight for range and cruise speed. As well seakeeping and crew comfort.
Different design filosophies.

Doesn't change the fact this Bavarian 12 150mm gun Cruiser carries 2400 shells,and 32 tons + of propellant.
Powderkeg?

Korpen · June 03, 2009, 01:32:21 PM

Quote from: maddox on June 03, 2009, 01:23:35 PM
Groningen is 1000 tons smaller and 5 main guns less as wel 8 years older than the Bavarian design.

The Demarce II uses the weight for range and cruise speed. As well seakeeping and crew comfort.
Different design filosophies.

Doesn't change the fact this Bavarian 12 150mm gun Cruiser carries 2400 shells,and 32 tons + of propellant.
Powderkeg?

Groningen got nine, not seven guns, and 2250 shells (250 per gun), but yes, she is older and slower (also first cruiser with FC), on the other hand she got allot more mines.
I do not think the Bavarian design is significantly more likely to self-destruct under fire then any other ship of the same size, like I said above.

Borys · June 03, 2009, 03:10:49 PM

Ahoj!
Six inch guns have their propelant in bags. Four inch guns have their propelant in metal cases. Hence my "floating bomb" comment. Pus the lack of hoists ...
Borys

Sachmle · June 03, 2009, 07:22:25 PM

I like the CL, and excellent job on the pic Korpen. I don't think she's a 'floating bomb' per se, BUT I think she needs to ditch the 105s, put the 150s were the 105s were, get a 75mm belt, go mount/hoist, and go 50mm/25mm/50mm on the mounts for armor. Probably gonna be a little heavier, but IMO it's worth it. Could cut the deck to 25mm IF YOU HAD TOO to save weight.

Korpen · June 03, 2009, 09:46:27 PM

Quote from: Borys on June 03, 2009, 03:10:49 PM
Ahoj!
Six inch guns have their propelant in bags. Four inch guns have their propelant in metal cases. Hence my "floating bomb" comment. Pus the lack of hoists ...
Borys

Not really, most "German" guns had sliding wedge breech-blocks, and hence cased ammo.
And powder on deck that is hit will not explode, it will burn.

Borys · June 04, 2009, 12:09:00 AM

Ahoj!
The case applies IF Bavaria follows OTL German gunmaking philosphy :)

OK - even if it doesn't exploed, it will burn nicely with lots of smoke and noxious fumes ... it is still a hazard.

I agree with Sachmle's comments.
Borys

Kaiser Kirk · June 04, 2009, 12:24:03 AM

OK, bunch of things to address :)

Magazines
First , thanks for the feedback, particularly the explanation of the magazine size concern. . The comments make more sense. There are several offsetting factors.

As Korpen noted, I presume I am using Krupp style shells, which would mean the cartridge would be metallic, substantially lowering the chance of a problem.

Again, looking to Madgeburg, she had 120 mines, each with 150kg of explosives, or ~18,000kg. Unlike this vessel, those would have been exposed. That was deemed an acceptable risk then.

Given the indicated magazine height, the magazines can be completely underwater and below decks, which in fact SS presumes. The armor belt, at 110m, covers 92% of the waterline, and the 30mm armor deck should be quite sufficient. Penetration is listed by Navweaps for the USS Omaha's 6"/53 gun, and 30mm should be proof past 18,000 yards. That's if we presume the armor deck is not distributed rationally and is a uniform sheet over the entire hull.

After rummaging around Navweaps, I can lower the #shells/gun to 160 or so, which fits the period better and reduces the problem by 20%. Also, the higher shell counts later are for centerline, while I suppose ammo meant for port could be used starboard. Unfortunately that sent Light disp >5000, so I trimmed hull form 0.02 to fix.

armanent

Lack of mines-
Actually I deleted 2 x T3 torps and chose not to provide mines after comparing to OTL ships to try to ensure the NEDs issue was addressed ahead of time.

105mm/150mm mix-
While a uniform suite is a better choice and would free up weight, the proposed setup is suited to the desired role of showering light combatants with shells.
I see this as being analogous to the HMS Bristol class with it's mixed 6" and 4", and I can transition to uniform weaponry in follow up classes. At which time the casements may go away as well.

Hoists-
While I can swap the centerline guns to hoists, it "costs" 0.5m in belt height, dropping it to 3.5m, still decent. Doable.

I do not wish to feature twin mount & hoist combos, or turrets.
First either would take time to research,
Second, the twin mount & hoist combos I am aware of do not seem to have replicated later, navies preferring to field heavier turreted twins instead. The Omaha's twin mount ran 51.8 tons, which was a bit over half of Arethusa's twin turret at 91 tons, but still more than Hawkin's single 46ton 7.5" mounts which were critiqued as "somewhat cumbersome". With the tech of the day, and considering I do want decent train rates for countering small fast ships, I'd rather go with the singles.

armor
French 140mm
The Tigre class is fast and heavily armed, it is also very fresh. I would think the presumption would likely still be that she'd ship with HE and SAP, not AP rounds. SAP would not be a problem. Even with AP, her penetration will be limited and unlikely to penetrate the armor deck. At 45kg, I doubt those shells are single piece, so Tigre's magazines would be more at risk.

75mm belt a priority.
This is a harder one. I did want to get there, and considered dropping speed to do so. However that was more because I like armor than because I thought it critical for the period. 1910s CLs did not tend to have 3" belts, and older 6" guns. The 1916 Chathams with 6" had a 50mm belt, Germans ships about the same.

Fiddling around, trimming the belt height to 3m- still decent for a CL, and deck to 25mm, I can boost thickness to 65mm.

Quote
Breslau, Bavaria Light Cruiser laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
4,993 t light; 5,264 t standard; 5,886 t normal; 6,384 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 52.49 ft x 19.36 ft (normal load)
120.00 m / 120.00 m x 16.00 m x 5.90 m

Armament:
4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 38.36lbs / 17.40kg shells, 1916 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
2 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1916 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 1,514 lbs / 687 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 160
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.56" / 65 mm 360.89 ft / 110.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 141 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 3 shafts, 46,266 shp / 34,514 Kw = 28.25 kts
Range 5,000nm at 12.50 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,120 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
335 - 436

Cost:
£1.008 million / $4.031 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 190 tons, 3.2 %
Armour: 683 tons, 11.6 %
- Belts: 362 tons, 6.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 53 tons, 0.9 %
- Armour Deck: 254 tons, 4.3 %
- Conning Tower: 14 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,009 tons, 34.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,965 tons, 33.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 893 tons, 15.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 145 tons, 2.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,804 lbs / 1,726 Kg = 36.9 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 13.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.515
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.85 ft / 6.66 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.24 ft / 5.56 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.24 ft / 5.56 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.24 ft / 5.56 m
- Stern: 18.24 ft / 5.56 m
- Average freeboard: 18.53 ft / 5.65 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 138.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.8 %
Waterplane Area: 13,960 Square feet or 1,297 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 92 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 83 lbs/sq ft or 405 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.90
- Longitudinal: 2.71
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Miscellaneous weight :
100 tons fire control
12 tons torpedoes + reloads
25 tons long range wireless.
13 tons unallocated.
---
150

Torpedo boats
Well, looking about at various MTBs- gunboats, I don't see 105mm guns featured. There is note the Germans upgunned to it, but I suspect on 600-ton vessels.
I think the best parallel would be the Finnish Sokol class and UK Steam Gun Boats
Now, what I don't know is if they forewent the 105mm because
1) structurally infeasible-
2) not deemed necessary
3) chose to invest in yet more speed.
In this case I deliberately derated speed so I could feature the 105mm. That "Cost" 1.5knots on the TB (29 to 30.5 trial), and 0.15knots on the TGB (still basically 27). On the TB the seakeeping also drops below 1.0, which means the additional speed could even more rarely actually be used.

Kaiser Kirk · June 04, 2009, 12:52:28 AM

on the cruiser, dropping 0.25knts to 28.0 allows a 75mm belt and 30mm deck.