Brandenburg Ship Proposals for 1917

[Sachmle]

While attempting to procure 38cm/L45 rifles for future projects this design was floated around to consider the use of these weapons.



Ersatz M, Brandenburg Linienschiffen laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   29,986 t light; 31,472 t standard; 32,788 t normal; 33,841 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   608.01 ft / 608.01 ft x 103.35 ft x 29.04 ft (normal load)
   185.32 m / 185.32 m x 31.50 m  x 8.85 m

Armament:
      8 - 14.96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,746.06lbs / 792.00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 99.21lbs / 45.00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      14 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 16,169 lbs / 7,334 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90
   4 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   377.99 ft / 115.21 m   14.01 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   206.00 ft / 62.79 m   10.01 ft / 3.05 m
     24.02 ft / 7.32 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   5.91" / 150 mm   239.99 ft / 73.15 m   14.01 ft / 4.27 m
     Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.36" / 60 mm   377.99 ft / 115.21 m   31.00 ft / 9.45 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   9.84" / 250 mm      13.8" / 350 mm
   2nd:   5.91" / 150 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   4th:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.98" / 25 mm            -
   5th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 14.96" / 380 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 72,000 shp / 53,712 Kw = 24.85 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,369 tons

Complement:
   1,217 - 1,583

Cost:
   £5.579 million / $22.315 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,956 tons, 6.0 %
   Armour: 12,475 tons, 38.0 %
      - Belts: 4,859 tons, 14.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,024 tons, 3.1 %
      - Armament: 3,682 tons, 11.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,579 tons, 7.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 330 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 2,683 tons, 8.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,372 tons, 37.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,802 tons, 8.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     42,405 lbs / 19,235 Kg = 25.3 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 7.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 6.3 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 17.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.629
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.88 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.66 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.02 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.02 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (60 %):      24.02 ft / 7.32 m (16.01 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.01 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.81 ft / 6.34 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 47,213 Square feet or 4,386 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 195 lbs/sq ft or 953 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.56
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

250t Fire Control
25t Markoni Installation
50t Sendes Auge
20t Torpedoes
25t Admiral's Quaters
25t Flag Facilities
50t Climate Control
55t Weight Reserve

[Guinness]

Do you really need the 105s and the 150s? It seems like the lesser caliber will just complicate secondary battery fire control.

I love the classic Kaiserliche Marine color scheme.

[Logi]

As do I :D

I fine no problems with the 105s and 150s: Its the 105s and 88s that bother me. Too close in caliber to make much of a difference (would be a whole different thing if they are meant to be AA guns).

Also the TDS is a little thick, I would have gone for more deck first but that's just me. The range is quite tiny... 6000nm at 12 kts? I have 8000nm at 12kts as standard range and even I'm rethinking it.

But overall nice ship and good firepower.

[miketr]

God thats alot of secondaries...

Michael

[mentat]

 Sorry - tough as old boots and worthy   but ...   dull

Seems more an expansion of the past than beginning of a future

Agree - range is very short - for home waters only?

Speed - step in the right direction - but short focsle, no breakwater (?)  and lack of sheer forward means problems in actually using the speed except in light seas

Would also mean poor visibility in fwd turrets and the low bridge

105s - I think too light for future, and overall too many secrys + tertrys for BB.  

8 x 15s, heavy armour (but can you reliably produce 15" armour of good quality?) and the wide TDS - the best aspects I think

Seems a substantial investment - isn't GBP5.6m capable of delivering more?

[P3D]

Mentat - just ignore whatever price SS2 gives.

The number of secondaries are important as several possible opponents of the DKB are strong on light forces.
7.3m freeboard is high enough for me.
The 88's are apparently AA, while the 105s are anti-TB.

[Jefgte]

16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 99.21lbs / 45.00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      14 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring

IMO, Too much different sec calibers
------
Seaboat quality is not very good...

;)

[mentat]

Isn't the SS2 price the basis for resource allocation - have I got that wrong?

Overall freeboard is fine - but concern is about the short focsle and lack of sheer at the bow - the design at the front looks weatherly enough for 18-20 knots but not so good for 25

[The Rock Doctor]

DKB's had a love for large secondaries for a while - look at S&G.  When you consider the light forces fielded by some of its neighbours - and its experience in the Second Pacific War - I think it's not unreasonable to continue the trend.

[Sachmle]

Yes the 88s are for anti-balloon work...I forgot to change them. As the ONLY nation to ever be attacked by things that go bump in the sky I though a relatively heavy (IMO..some designs here have WAY TO MANY AA guns) would make sense. As for the 15cm, 10cm issue..P3D is right. NS, OR, and Italy all have mass TB/DDs and are possible opponents. As is Maoria..but they have almost NO TB/DDs. My personal though is that the 15cm are kinda slow firing, but the 10cm lack the oomph necessary to stop a DD. I'll be starting research into a 12 or 13cm gun in 2/16 and may use it instead w/ the standard 16 in the hull(although if you note they're practically 'deck' level w/ the quarterdeck) and probably develop a deck mount and put 4 per side in though on deck level. I'm sure I'll discover that the 88s are piss poor AA guns and ditch them eventually, but that will require 'experience' that we don't have yet. As to the lack of sheer, I suck at putting sheer in my drawing, hence I subconsciously avoid it in my designs. I'll see how it works w/ some sheer and the 'future' 12-13cm guns. As to TDS vs deck armor. 75mm will stop most if not all current and many future guns at the ranges battle is fought at now, and will hold up in the future. 10cm is enough to stop ANYTHING short of AP Bombs, which aren't an issue ATM and I don't like hindsightitis. The TDS is not too think, IMO, but I could go w/ 50mm if the consensus is that it's thick enough.

[The Rock Doctor]

Actually, I did have a small issue with airships at one point, but they ended up being less destructive than the ones DKB dealt with.

I agree that some vessels out there are somewhat over-armed with AA guns

[Sachmle]

Here is the one w/ the 88s as AA and the 12cm secondary. I also *gulp* put a clipper bow on it and some sheer in the f'cst'le. I also upped the range to 8000 @ 12kts. I had to increase the beam to get a steadiness over 49 though.

Ersatz M, Brandenburg Linienschiffen laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   29,960 t light; 31,413 t standard; 33,119 t normal; 34,484 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   608.01 ft / 608.01 ft x 104.99 ft x 29.53 ft (normal load)
   185.32 m / 185.32 m x 32.00 m  x 9.00 m

Armament:
      8 - 14.96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,763.70lbs / 800.00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.91lbs / 24.00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.91lbs / 24.00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.75lbs / 1.70kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 15,498 lbs / 7,030 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90
   4 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   377.99 ft / 115.21 m   14.01 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   206.00 ft / 62.79 m   10.01 ft / 3.05 m
     24.02 ft / 7.32 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   5.91" / 150 mm   239.99 ft / 73.15 m   14.01 ft / 4.27 m
     Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.97" / 50 mm   377.99 ft / 115.21 m   31.00 ft / 9.45 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   10.8" / 275 mm      13.8" / 350 mm
   2nd:   5.91" / 150 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 72,000 shp / 53,712 Kw = 24.84 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,072 tons

Complement:
   1,226 - 1,595

Cost:
   £5.410 million / $21.639 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,847 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 12,288 tons, 37.1 %
      - Belts: 4,865 tons, 14.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 854 tons, 2.6 %
      - Armament: 3,677 tons, 11.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,586 tons, 7.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 306 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,683 tons, 8.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,648 tons, 38.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,159 tons, 9.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 495 tons, 1.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     45,216 lbs / 20,510 Kg = 27.0 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 7.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 6.4 ft / 2.0 m
   Roll period: 17.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.615
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.79 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.66 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27.30 ft / 8.32 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   25.66 ft / 7.82 m
      - Mid (60 %):      24.02 ft / 7.32 m (16.01 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.01 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.60 ft / 6.58 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 47,344 Square feet or 4,398 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 198 lbs/sq ft or 965 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.67
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

250t Fire Control
25t Markoni Installation
50t Sendes Auge
20t Torpedoes
25t Admiral's Quaters
25t Flag Facilities
50t Climate Control
50t Weight Reserve

[mentat]

Yes - she looks equipped for the 1920s :)

[Carthaginian]

More than impressive... she looks absolutely vicious.
She will definately give the enemies of the Reich pause.

[Jefgte]

What a beauty  :o

Nice 1/700 model to scratch  :D


;)