Glorious French battlecruiser

[The Rock Doctor]

It's not so much that I'm waiting as I've already committed most of my resources to other capital ship projects that won't be done until then.  I'm kinda stuck.

What tech will I have done by then?  Concievably new armor and protection, newer guns, newer engines, second generation fire control, and large ports/slips to build in.  There's no guarantee that I will necessarily respond directly to this though - I might instead opt for slower battleships, submarines, aircraft carriers, or the slab-sided horror.

[Guinness]

Purposefully diving into a building race with Glorious, Inconquerable, Unmockable France seems like folly, as no single nation has a chance of even competing. Of course, if one only wants to force France to spend horrendous amounts of $ and BP building an incoherent battlefleet, they might have more success.

[mentat]

Glorious, Inconquerable, Unmockable - are those Mondedor's Sisters? ;D

[maddox]

Alternatively - blow it up on Bastille Day - a Glorious French Firework! ;D

To cover (their a***s) themselves the French Authorities will of course immediately announce this as a deliberate act of National Celebration - and henceforth will be required to blow up a Large Expensive Battleship every year in Commemoration of La Glorious Revolution ......

Actualy, Glorious France has reasons to be paranoïd about sabotage.

At least 3 instances are know to Glorious France that sabotage was involved in the loss of or crippling warships.

The 1000 tons sloop Chardon Marie suffered an on board explosion. Later to be seen as a limpet mine action. Actions by people unknown. Possible a resistance group with religious leanings.

Napoleon the Great that patrolled the French Polynesian waters for example.  The forward boilerroom blew up by the old trick of coal torpedos.  Explosive charges camoflaged as largisch lumps of coal.
It's one of the reasons the coal industry was losing the struggle to Keep the French marine on coal. No one is accused, but it's tought that the New Swiss under President Robinson were behind it.

Only the timely offer of the Habsburgs to send in a tender to get her repaired enough to get to the Tricomalee Fleet base saved her from the same fate Greater Napoleon befel. Being dug in and put in concrete as a fortress.

[mentat]

Asymmetrics - gets you every time! :D

[mentat]

Love the Coal Torpedos!

Thinking about Sabotage ;D

Is there a tech. guideline on small underwater stuff - frogmen, limpet mines, Chariots (Italian style), Mini-Subs (RN X Boat vs Tirpitz) ?

I'm thinking as more 40+k ton Monsters appear in the 1920s - then these are a very attractive response!!

Real world I think it was explored somewhat in WW1 - then nothing much until WW2 kicked off the need again? vs in nverse there will be a real rationale in the 20s?

[maddox]

No special tech tree in that.

Also, not needed, most technologies are known, it's the use that makes it different.
And, if you see how much luck was involved in most, if not all of this kind of actions...

[mentat]

  Yes - very brave men :'(   ......

[maddox]

The realisation that the Huge Montmedy won't be in use before 1920, and the delayed refit of NtG gave birth to this wacko idea.

Napoleon the Great, French battleship laid down 1903 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   21.087 t light; 22.097 t standard; 24.076 t normal; 25.659 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   620,08 ft / 613,52 ft x 82,02 ft (Bulges 95,14 ft) x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   189,00 m / 187,00 m x 25,00 m (Bulges 29,00 m)  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1899 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      2 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns in single mounts, 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1899 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      10 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1903 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side ends, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 11.517 lbs / 5.224 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 80

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   435,00 ft / 132,59 m   12,25 ft / 3,73 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   3,00" / 76 mm   337,43 ft / 102,85 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 109% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1,50" / 38 mm   435,00 ft / 132,59 m   25,00 ft / 7,62 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   8,00" / 203 mm      8,00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   12,0" / 305 mm   8,00" / 203 mm      8,00" / 203 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   4th:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 78.826 shp / 58.804 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.562 tons

Complement:
   966 - 1.256

Cost:
   £2,245 million / $8,982 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.305 tons, 5,4%
   Armour: 6.974 tons, 29,0%
      - Belts: 3.056 tons, 12,7%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 604 tons, 2,5%
      - Armament: 1.799 tons, 7,5%
      - Armour Deck: 1.299 tons, 5,4%
      - Conning Tower: 216 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 2.937 tons, 12,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9.521 tons, 39,5%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.989 tons, 12,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     27.396 lbs / 12.427 Kg = 22,8 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 4,6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,09
   Metacentric height 4,4 ft / 1,3 m
   Roll period: 19,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,59
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,14

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,45 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,77 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29,53 ft / 9,00 m
      - Forecastle (30%):   26,25 ft / 8,00 m
      - Mid (45%):      17,68 ft / 5,39 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   17,68 ft / 5,39 m
      - Stern:      17,68 ft / 5,39 m
      - Average freeboard:   21,29 ft / 6,49 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 108,2%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 130,5%
   Waterplane Area: 35.119 Square feet or 3.263 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 177 lbs/sq ft or 863 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,57
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

The extensive rebuild of NtG

Lengthened, with 21 meters, part of that is in the new ,higher bow, the rest aft of Q turret.
The space is used for new engines and oil fired boilers.
Re-arranged armor, removal of end armor, thinning of upper armor
Replaced the 275mm twins with single 340mm turrets
(Nverse II, the main gun turrets of the last generation CCBB's)

tertiary armament changed from 12 casemated 105 to 10 140mm single mount and hoist .



The misc weight.
250 tons FC
25 tons large marconi
25 tons ERADe
50 tons crew comfort

[mentat]

  Interesting - but I guess key questions are how long to convert and how much $$$

Deck armour seems too thin for future combat situations, also how long a service life would it have?

[maddox]

The conversion should take 15 months.

Pricetag is 9 BP and  $13.5

Service life after rebuild 30 years.

But you're right, deck armor is getting thin for the time.
On the other hand, without the changes ,the ship would become even less usable, and then she would be scrapped after 15 years of service or so.

[The Rock Doctor]

Has Glorious France considered just leaving the 275mm emplacements empty (or with 140mm guns) and using the weight savings for extra deck protection?  For a battlecruiser of the size and speed, 6 x 340mm is still a good punch.

[maddox]

I did think about that, but simming the vessel without the 2 side turrets changes the whole equation.

On the other hand, the rules allow for barbette removal.

Without the 2 side turrets enough weight becomes available for a whopping 4" deck and 16 140mm guns in 8 twin turrets.

Napoleon the Great, France battleship laid down 1903 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   21.192 t light; 22.097 t standard; 24.076 t normal; 25.659 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   620,08 ft / 613,52 ft x 82,02 ft (Bulges 95,14 ft) x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   189,00 m / 187,00 m x 25,00 m (Bulges 29,00 m)  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1899 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 83,72lbs / 37,98kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1903 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 9.285 lbs / 4.212 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 80

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   435,00 ft / 132,59 m   12,25 ft / 3,73 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   3,00" / 76 mm   337,43 ft / 102,85 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 109% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1,50" / 38 mm   435,00 ft / 132,59 m   25,00 ft / 7,62 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   8,00" / 203 mm      8,00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   3,00" / 76 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      2,00" / 51 mm
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 4,00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 78.826 shp / 58.804 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.562 tons

Complement:
   966 - 1.256

Cost:
   £2,050 million / $8,200 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.068 tons, 4,4%
   Armour: 7.841 tons, 32,6%
      - Belts: 3.056 tons, 12,7%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 604 tons, 2,5%
      - Armament: 1.367 tons, 5,7%
      - Armour Deck: 2.599 tons, 10,8%
      - Conning Tower: 216 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 2.937 tons, 12,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8.796 tons, 36,5%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.884 tons, 12,0%
   Miscellaneous weights: 550 tons, 2,3%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     30.121 lbs / 13.663 Kg = 25,1 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 5,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12
   Metacentric height 4,6 ft / 1,4 m
   Roll period: 18,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,45 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,77 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30,18 ft / 9,20 m
      - Forecastle (30%):   26,90 ft / 8,20 m
      - Mid (45%):      17,68 ft / 5,39 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   17,68 ft / 5,39 m
      - Stern:      17,68 ft / 5,39 m
      - Average freeboard:   21,53 ft / 6,56 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99,9%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131,2%
   Waterplane Area: 35.119 Square feet or 3.263 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 163 lbs/sq ft or 795 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,56
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[mentat]

Big improvement - and probably worth it - but now I feel picky about the Barbette armour

You can't win  ;)

[maddox]

With the budget of France, it is doable.  But is it worth the extra effort?  It's the idea to get a fast ship in action quickly.