Glorious French battlecruiser

[miketr]

I like my cruiser kill concept better...

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=673.msg26050#msg26050

Yah my ships have paper thin armor but they are even faster and 10,000 tons light displacement smaller in size. 30K is just too big for such weak main guns, IMHO of course.

Michael

[mentat]

How about Gloire III - but 8 x 340mm and 12" Belt abreast Mags -  9" for Machinery

  I think same cost and more effective all-round

[Guinness]

I guess I'm missing it. Why are these big ships better than the ~15,000 or 16,000 ton super cruiser/light battlecruiser type ships already under construction or plying the seas?

Is it just an escalation? Let's design something that can kill (for instance) a 32 knot 8x9.2" armed ship?

[maddox]

It's a series of paper concepts. Nothing more.

[mentat]

To explain a bit more the 8 x 340mm suggestion:

I'm thinking that ideally a BC should be good in 3 key roles:

1. Heavy Fleet Scout
2. Long Range Power Projection - Open Ocean/Colonial Waters incl vs Larger Raiders
3. Fast Heavy Support to Light Forces

For all 3 roles - a 29k tonner is already very superior to 9"/10" gun ships -= they had better make, way if they can

Against 11"/12" - gunned opponents - it's a closer call ...

But taking the Iberian Large ACs as a benchmark - from memory I think - 25k tons, 8 x 12" 12" belt 27 knots

    30 knots gives good advantage
    340mm gives good advantage (and 8 guns is good for FC)

   12" Belt angled at 10/12 degrees abreast Mags - seems a minimum vs. their 12" guns

    Although might get some useful hits at longer range - need to close at some point to more effective range to get more hits - and you want opponent at risk of going 'Kaboom' not yourself  ;D

Given that the 2 Mondedors can't be everywhere - Gloire III looks good to me


Guinness - no one would even dream of 'whacking' the Wheelers - they're just too pretty .... (besides 32+ knots is too expensive vs. other Reqmts)

[maddox]

Yikes. I don't think 12x275mm on almost 29,000 tons is a respectable armament.

The Germans tought otherwise with 3 main guns less on a lot heavier ship.

[Borys]

The Scharnhorst&Gneisenau were in many ways a compromise - one of the reasons for the armament was that the triple 28cm was already in production. The original idea was for 3x2x35cm, I believe.
And were faster, too.
And better armoured as well ...

Borys

[maddox]

And 16 year younger. With engines that were 5 years advanced to the periode- unfortunatly, tempramental.

And not that much faster, and with way worse seakeeping.

[Jefgte]

Your Gloire III is a well balanced cruiser.
Interresting to see what she made near a squadron or alone as a raider.

S & G are other history  & other period...


;)

[maddox]

Do you mean the 2T3 380mm or the 4T3 275mm version?

[Jefgte]

Do you mean the 2T3 380mm or the 4T3 275mm version?

2 concepts are interresting but different in tactical use.

- 2T3x380 or (3T2x380), could help seriously BBs to do the work.
- 4T3x275 are better to engage fast cruisers.

That what you choose... but not neccessary that the futur n verse history choose  :D  :D  :D


Jef  ;)

[maddox]

Half the weight,  as fast as ever and probably ugly as hell.

JR Ducable, French Large Light Armored cruiser laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   14.999 t light; 15.804 t standard; 18.226 t normal; 20.164 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   626,64 ft / 623,36 ft x 75,46 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   191,00 m / 190,00 m x 23,00 m  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      6 - 10,83" / 275 mm guns (2x3 guns), 661,39lbs / 300,00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      8 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (2x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all aft, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1918 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 5.086 lbs / 2.307 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6,00" / 152 mm   380,25 ft / 115,90 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 94% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6,00" / 152 mm   5,00" / 127 mm      6,00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   4th:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5,00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 95.399 shp / 71.168 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.359 tons

Complement:
   783 - 1.019

Cost:
   £3,057 million / $12,228 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 602 tons, 3,3%
   Armour: 3.344 tons, 18,3%
      - Belts: 1.370 tons, 7,5%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 722 tons, 4,0%
      - Armour Deck: 1.177 tons, 6,5%
      - Conning Tower: 75 tons, 0,4%
   Machinery: 3.554 tons, 19,5%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7.148 tons, 39,2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.227 tons, 17,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     21.763 lbs / 9.872 Kg = 34,3 x 10,8 " / 275 mm shells or 2,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,08
   Metacentric height 3,8 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 16,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,78
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,517
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,26 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,97 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (22%):   22,31 ft / 6,80 m
      - Mid (60%):      22,31 ft / 6,80 m
      - Quarterdeck (17%):   22,31 ft / 6,80 m
      - Stern:      22,31 ft / 6,80 m
      - Average freeboard:   22,08 ft / 6,73 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172,7%
   Waterplane Area: 31.824 Square feet or 2.957 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 144 lbs/sq ft or 701 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,93
      - Longitudinal: 1,79
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 ton FC
25tons Long range marconi
25 ton ERADe
25 ton Crew comfort
25 ton not assigned

[The Rock Doctor]

It's French.  We assume it's ugly as hell unless advised otherwise.

[maddox]

Now dazzlepaint it.

[Sachmle]

It's French.  We assume it's ugly as hell unless advised otherwise.

Now dazzlepaint it.

MY EYES!!!!