Logi's Design Studies

[Logi]

Oh second thought I tried it again:

With 250t FCS and Turret

Hao Class, RRC Pocket Cruiser laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   8,000 t light; 8,337 t standard; 8,919 t normal; 9,385 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 60.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
   169.77 m / 169.77 m x 18.29 m  x 6.10 m

Armament:
      8 - 7.68" / 195 mm guns (4x2 guns), 226.24lbs / 102.62kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1919 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
     on centreline amidships
   Weight of broadside 2,118 lbs / 961 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130
   9 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   410.00 ft / 124.97 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 113 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 61,799 shp / 46,102 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,048 tons

Complement:
   458 - 596

Cost:
   £1.799 million / $7.198 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 265 tons, 3.0 %
   Armour: 1,605 tons, 18.0 %
      - Belts: 807 tons, 9.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 171 tons, 1.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 600 tons, 6.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 28 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 2,303 tons, 25.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,473 tons, 38.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 919 tons, 10.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 354 tons, 4.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7,844 lbs / 3,558 Kg = 34.7 x 7.7 " / 195 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 15.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.467
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.28 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.00 ft / 5.49 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Stern:      13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.44 ft / 5.01 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 21,625 Square feet or 2,009 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 104 lbs/sq ft or 510 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.25
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Borys]

Ahoj!
"Cross-decking" was a poor choice of term to use. This is a mount on one side, but capable of firing over the deck at targets on the other beam. I should had used the term "centerline" TT mount.

The WWII Furutaka sports two beam quads. The line drawing of the 6x1x8" version I have does not show torpedo tyube. I'd love to see how the 3x3 TTs were arranged.

I still think that twined guns above 6" should be in turrets ...
Borys

[Logi]

The crane aft was removed and the space used for the centerline launchers. Also, part of the superstructure was removed (as there is only one gun centerline on this ship).

[Walter]

The line drawing of the 6x1x8" version I have does not show torpedo tyube.

Looking around, I found a pic of the early version of the Furutaka which is probably the version you have or something similar.
http://www.military.cz/ww2_ships/Japan/CA/furutaka/furutaka_schem1926.jpg
Not easy to see, but the torpedo tubes are visible in the hull.

[Walter]

Marked them on the picture...

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Thank you Walter. It was this drawing, but not in such detail.
So, where are the triple TT mounts?
Instead of mount/ turret no. 3, catapult and no. 4?
Borys

[Logi]

Yes.

[Logi]

Paper Exercise; A Battleship where tonnage isn't a concern. This is what was achieved.

For the note:

The Ship employs a 16" Internal Main Belt inclined @ 20 degrees. There is an external 1.5" decapping plate inclined @ 20 degrees.

The TDS is distributed into three hulls (triple hull), with the following protection: 0.5", 0.5", 1" in order from outermost to inner.

The Deck is split into three parts: A 2" Weather Deck, a 4" Armored Deck, and then a 1" Splinter Deck.

As usual, the Belt is situated with 5 ft underwater. The Weather deck lies at the top of the ship and the Armored 5 ft below that, connecting the AD to the MB.

Greater Juren, Republic of China Battleship laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   44,000 t light; 46,329 t standard; 48,501 t normal; 50,238 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721.00 ft / 700.00 ft x 100.00 ft (Bulges 116.70 ft) x 35.20 ft (normal load)
   219.76 m / 213.36 m x 30.48 m (Bulges 35.57 m)  x 10.73 m

Armament:
      16 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      20 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (10x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 24,112 lbs / 10,937 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   17.5" / 445 mm   455.00 ft / 138.68 m   21.75 ft / 6.63 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   245.00 ft / 74.68 m   21.75 ft / 6.63 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      2.50" / 64 mm   455.00 ft / 138.68 m   35.20 ft / 10.73 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   17.0" / 432 mm   12.0" / 305 mm      16.0" / 406 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      2.00" / 51 mm

   - Armour deck: 7.00" / 178 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 74,421 shp / 55,518 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,909 tons

Complement:
   1,633 - 2,124

Cost:
   £9.731 million / $38.923 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3,014 tons, 6.2 %
   Armour: 20,969 tons, 43.2 %
      - Belts: 8,289 tons, 17.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,481 tons, 3.1 %
      - Armament: 4,485 tons, 9.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 6,570 tons, 13.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 143 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 2,773 tons, 5.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,609 tons, 34.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,501 tons, 9.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 635 tons, 1.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     57,341 lbs / 26,009 Kg = 41.8 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 10.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 5.8 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 20.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.13

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.590
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.46 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 32.62 degrees
   Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.00 ft / 6.10 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.44 ft / 5.62 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 50,737 Square feet or 4,714 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 223 lbs/sq ft or 1,090 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.23
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

[TexanCowboy]

20 degrees? Thats alot. Not a good idea.

[Logi]

20 degrees isn't alot, the Iowa battleships features a 19 degrees internal MB incline. It is the maximum, but its not alot.

[Jefgte]

Powerfull BB with massive armour

21.000t on 44.000---43.2%
but survivability is not very high... you could certainly have over 30.000kg.
With that belt, you could stop 20" APC... (?)

I like specialy the boardside


Jef

[Guinness]

16x14" is an interesting armament. It would probably soft kill just about anything it couldn't penetrate.

Just for arguments sake, how would a ship armed with between 8 and 12 16" guns compare?

[Logi]

I note no difference between three quad 16" and four triple 16" so I went with the latter.

For 4000 tons you get a much heavier broadside.

Greater Juren, Republic of China Battleship laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   48,000 t light; 51,006 t standard; 53,318 t normal; 55,167 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   725.00 ft / 710.00 ft x 100.00 ft (Bulges 118.40 ft) x 36.00 ft (normal load)
   220.98 m / 216.41 m x 30.48 m (Bulges 36.09 m)  x 10.97 m

Armament:
      12 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (4x3 guns), 2,700.00lbs / 1,224.70kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      20 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (10x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 34,560 lbs / 15,676 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   17.5" / 445 mm   455.00 ft / 138.68 m   21.75 ft / 6.63 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   245.00 ft / 74.68 m   21.75 ft / 6.63 m
     10.00 ft / 3.05 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      2.50" / 64 mm   455.00 ft / 138.68 m   36.00 ft / 10.97 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   17.0" / 432 mm   12.0" / 305 mm      16.0" / 406 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      2.00" / 51 mm

   - Armour deck: 7.00" / 178 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 79,253 shp / 59,123 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4,161 tons

Complement:
   1,753 - 2,280

Cost:
   £10.692 million / $42.770 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3,342 tons, 6.3 %
   Armour: 21,732 tons, 40.8 %
      - Belts: 8,311 tons, 15.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,515 tons, 2.8 %
      - Armament: 4,924 tons, 9.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 6,830 tons, 12.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 153 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 2,953 tons, 5.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 19,263 tons, 36.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,318 tons, 10.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 710 tons, 1.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     61,400 lbs / 27,850 Kg = 30.0 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 11.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 20.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.617
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.65 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 21.80 degrees
   Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.00 ft / 6.10 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.44 ft / 5.62 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 52,740 Square feet or 4,900 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 248 lbs/sq ft or 1,209 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.30
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

[Borys]

As usual, the Belt is situated with 5 ft underwater. The Weather deck lies at the top of the ship and the Armored 5 ft below that, connecting the AD to the MB.

I believe that SS splits the MB equally above and below the WL. So, if you want a miserly 5FT below the WL, sim a 10' MB and add the rest as UB.

I also believe that a deck with 5' height is very uncomfortable for the crew. I try to go for at least 7FT m'self, and 8' if I can.
Borys

[Walter]

I also believe that a deck with 5' height is very uncomfortable for the crew.

That might be true for the Habsburgers, but the Chinese are not that tall... :)