Logi's Design Studies

[mentat]

  Love Torpedo Cruisers - they ooze aggression ..   ;D

Think you may have overdone number of tubes a tad - 12 on deck and 8 submerged is still plenty, 'submerged' - actually below deck but above waterline are good for astern fire - no speed restriction in using - bow tubes are pretty useless tactically as noted above

do you have enough bunkerage at 400 tons? - esp. given the high top speed ....l

[Logi]

Oppz, didn't notice the date, my bad.

[TexanCowboy]

I was about to say.  ;D

[Logi]

An auxiliary carrier. Spawned mostly from the idea, "Hey we have a lot of deck space on troopships, why not use it for something?"

LamHaou, RRC Auxilary Carrier laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   4,000 t light; 4,099 t standard; 4,593 t normal; 4,988 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 65.62 ft x 14.76 ft (normal load)
   120.00 m / 120.00 m x 20.00 m  x 4.50 m

Armament:
     2 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 71 lbs / 32 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200

Armour:
  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

  Single Hangar

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 12 shafts, 9,813 shp / 7,321 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 888 tons

Complement:
   278 - 362

Cost:
   £0.433 million / $1.733 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 9 tons, 0.2 %
   Armour: 4 tons, 0.1 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 4 tons, 0.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 366 tons, 8.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,731 tons, 37.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 593 tons, 12.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,890 tons, 41.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     10,466 lbs / 4,747 Kg = 296.3 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
   Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 14.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.421
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 25
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Stern:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 72.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 220.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 16,122 Square feet or 1,498 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 170 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 74 lbs/sq ft or 360 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.50
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Misc Weight (1890 t):
600t - 24 Airplanes
30t - Medicial Facilties
15t - Climatization
20t - Extra Pumps
25t - Long-Range Wireless
1200t - Troops (600 Long Range - 1200 Short Range)

[TexanCowboy]

Err... rather cramped. You're talking 1,800 troop+250 or so to run the ship+ 100 aviators and their support staff. Even the Independence class, of World War II, which was twice as big, had only 1,000 people.

[Logi]

Wait what? How did you get 1800+250+100+support staff?

Its 1200+250+8+support staff. There's only twenty four planes and not every plane is launched from the ship, IRL they are almost never.

[TexanCowboy]

Err.. my baid. Ok, 1,300+250+ 100, INCLUDING the support staff. I should have made that clear the first time. Still, the Independence class was twice as big, with 1,000 people, and carriers should not be built to civilian standard. I think they are mutually exclusive.

[Logi]

You are wrong about something:

The Indy carried 30 planes, this carries 24. 6 planes is a lot of space.

Second: That 1,200 is how much troops go in the ship for one day transport.600 for two-day transport. The space isn't ALWAYS used unlike the Indy. That means you don't need that much space to be filled with food and other things.

The real crew use up is 250+8+support staff.

[The Rock Doctor]

My recollection is that most troopships have considerable superstructure for accommodation of passengers, and a great deal of boats hanging from davits.  There would only be room for a flight deck if mounted above the superstructure.

Technical issues aside - while one could argue she'd be "self-escorting", you wouldn't be able to conduct flight and troop loading/unloading operations at the same time.

[Logi]

Oh right, I was thinking 3/4 Deck for flight when I simmed this, I forgot about the superstructure.

I was thinking the boats could hand at the side of the flight deck. The flight deck is supposed to raised 10 feet. with empty space underneath for boats, etc.

[maddox]

80*16m flight deck.  Ignoring the steel support structure.

50mm thick pine. 

Weight 500 tons, 10' above what SS assumes is the strenght deck.


Simmed her with those 10' extra as hull and a flight deck that is armered up to the 500 tons as calculated.

Lamwhau, Ersatz  CVE laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   4.002 t light; 4.099 t standard; 4.593 t normal; 4.988 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393,70 ft / 393,70 ft x 65,62 ft x 14,76 ft (normal load)
   120,00 m / 120,00 m x 20,00 m  x 4,50 m

Armament:
      2 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 71 lbs / 32 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:

   - Armour deck: 1,60" / 41 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9.813 shp / 7.321 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 8.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 888 tons

Complement:
   278 - 362

Cost:
   £0,433 million / $1,734 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 9 tons, 0,2%
   Armour: 477 tons, 10,4%
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armour Deck: 477 tons, 10,4%
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 366 tons, 8,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1.260 tons, 27,4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 591 tons, 12,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 1.890 tons, 41,1%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7.878 lbs / 3.573 Kg = 223,0 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells or 2,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,13
   Metacentric height 3,3 ft / 1,0 m
   Roll period: 15,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,01
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,421
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 36
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29,86 ft / 9,10 m
      - Forecastle (0%):   29,86 ft / 9,10 m
      - Mid (50%):      29,86 ft / 9,10 m
      - Quarterdeck (20%):   29,86 ft / 9,10 m
      - Stern:      0,00 ft / 0,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   26,87 ft / 8,19 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 72,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 329,8%
   Waterplane Area: 16.122 Square feet or 1.498 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 145%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 45 lbs/sq ft or 219 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,48
      - Longitudinal: 3,43
      - Overall: 0,59
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Logi]

?? We can sim it to 0.59 overall?

[maddox]

If you would use the ship as I simmed it, you're at the mercy of the moderators. Doubtfull she'll survive the first trip under full load.

Read up the Greater Napoleon story...

[TexanCowboy]

Bizarre. I read that. I though it had problems because of the beam. Ohh... wait, nevermind.

[Logi]

Juren, RRC Pocket Battleship laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   24,000 t light; 25,766 t standard; 27,258 t normal; 28,452 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
   169.77 m / 167.64 m x 27.43 m  x 9.14 m

Armament:
      12 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3 mounts), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all forward, 1 raised gun
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 21,623 lbs / 9,808 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   385.00 ft / 117.35 m   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   1.25" / 32 mm   385.00 ft / 117.35 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   385.00 ft / 117.35 m   33.00 ft / 10.06 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 40,824 shp / 30,455 Kw = 22.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,686 tons

Complement:
   1,059 - 1,378

Cost:
   £5.946 million / $23.784 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,286 tons, 8.4 %
   Armour: 9,140 tons, 33.5 %
      - Belts: 3,740 tons, 13.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 940 tons, 3.4 %
      - Armament: 2,136 tons, 7.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,090 tons, 7.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 234 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 1,521 tons, 5.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,666 tons, 39.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,258 tons, 12.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 387 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     29,054 lbs / 13,179 Kg = 21.2 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 16.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.95
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.642
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.11 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.04 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Mid (50 %):      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Stern:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.51 ft / 5.34 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 107.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 37,658 Square feet or 3,499 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 205 lbs/sq ft or 999 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 1.94
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Main Belt is Sloped at 20 Degrees (Internal) - So the vertical length of such a belt is 16 feet
External Vertical Belt  is 1.25" - A Decapping Plate - Noted in SS as upper belt, located in front of Main Belt - thickness is enough to decap projectiles up to 15.5"

Main Guns are to fire in Salvo's not broadsides as it is expected to put the ship is a dangerous list.

178.5 feet : Three guns together (10 ft of space between each gun)
100 feet: Superstructure Length
110 feet: Forecastle
55 feet: Quarterdeck
Total Neccesary Space: 443.5 feet
Remaining space for Miscellanous: 106.5 feet

Misc Weights (387t):
250t Primary FCS
25t Long-Range Wireless
25t Radar
24t 21" Torpedoes
30t Extra Pumps
15t Flag Facilities
  5t Climatization
13t Reserve Weight