CSA Speculative Design Studies

[Guinness]

The CSA has a continuing need for small, cheap, easy to operation ships to patrol its very long coastline and operate in and around Haiti, the Bahamas, and the Florida Keys.

One outstanding question is: could this be built to the merchant rules? Just going by armament and armor weights, I think so, but I suspect the considerable functional misc. weights might rule that out.

1916 Sloop, CSA Sloop laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   300 t light; 314 t standard; 424 t normal; 512 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   195.00 ft / 185.00 ft x 20.25 ft x 7.48 ft (normal load)
   59.44 m / 56.39 m x 6.17 m  x 2.28 m

Armament:
      1 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 20.00lbs / 9.07kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
      1 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 20.00lbs / 9.07kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline amidships
      4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1915 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all forward
      1 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1915 Model
     Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
     on centreline amidships, 1 raised gun
   Weight of broadside 44 lbs / 20 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.25" / 6 mm   0.25" / 6 mm            -

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 2,000 shp / 1,492 Kw = 18.14 kts
   Range 6,100nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 198 tons

Complement:
   46 - 60

Cost:
   £0.039 million / $0.155 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 6 tons, 1.4 %
   Armour: 1 tons, 0.3 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1 tons, 0.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 80 tons, 18.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 179 tons, 42.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 124 tons, 29.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 34 tons, 8.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     837 lbs / 380 Kg = 39.0 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
   Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 11.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.29
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.530
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.14 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 13.60 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18.45 degrees
   Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   14.50 ft / 4.42 m
      - Mid (58 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m (6.00 ft / 1.83 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (18 %):   7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Stern:      8.00 ft / 2.44 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.22 ft / 3.42 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 2,566 Square feet or 238 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 176 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 142 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.80
      - Longitudinal: 7.15
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Misc weight used for mission specific equipment, which can include:

Minesweeping Gear (15 tons)
Two Extra Motor Launches (4 tons)
Accommodations for up to a 15 man shore party (30 tons)
34 mines (34 tons)
Long Range Wireless set (25 tons)

[The Rock Doctor]

If there were no minelaying capability, I'd be content to see her built to merchie standards.

My sense is that she's got a lot of bunkerage for a coastal patrol vessel...

[Guinness]

Yeah but she's got plenty of range for spying on Cartagena. One secondary role for these would be coastal escort in case of war, the range will go to good use.

As far as merchant standard: I'm torn. A large number of these would have most utility if they are somewhat flexible, but too much flexibility is probably inappropriate for the period too. I see them in a general coastal patrol version carrying the small shore party, in a patrol version carrying the long range wireless, as a minesweeper, and as a minelayer. I expect the long-range wireless equipped version will have to be roughly dedicated (though convertible later as part of a refit), and I expect the version carrying the extra accommodations would require a similar refit to change roles, but I believe the sweeper/layer versions can be interchangeable with only a day or two in port.

So, at least the sweeper/layer would need to be built to full merchant standards. So if I do that, it seems most appropriate that they all get built that way.

Too bad we don't give ourselves a series production discount.  ;)

[maddox]

Too bad we don't give ourselves a series production discount. 

To early.. and no reason to build ships that way..... It's not a Liberty class freighter or Cassablanca class escort carrier.

[Guinness]

CSS Virginia is overdue for a refit. She also limits the battlefleet tactically because she is nearly 2 knots slower than the rest of the ships currently in service. This is a study of a refurbishment, including re-engining her with modern boilers and turbines:

CSS Virginia Refit, CSA Battleship laid down 1905 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   17,500 t light; 18,401 t standard; 19,255 t normal; 19,938 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 22.00 ft (normal load)
   167.64 m / 167.64 m x 24.38 m  x 6.71 m

Armament:
      6 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,250.00lbs / 566.99kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      20 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      2 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 9,008 lbs / 4,086 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.7" / 373 mm   350.00 ft / 106.68 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   5.25" / 133 mm   200.00 ft / 60.96 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   5.25" / 133 mm   300.00 ft / 91.44 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.7" / 373 mm   3.45" / 88 mm      14.7" / 373 mm
   2nd:   5.25" / 133 mm         -         3.00" / 76 mm
   3rd:         -      1.00" / 25 mm            -
   4th:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.45" / 88 mm, Conning tower: 14.70" / 373 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 25,000 shp / 18,650 Kw = 20.35 kts
   Range 7,920nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,537 tons

Complement:
   816 - 1,062

Cost:
   £1.693 million / $6.774 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,132 tons, 5.9 %
   Armour: 8,168 tons, 42.4 %
      - Belts: 3,888 tons, 20.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,810 tons, 9.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,243 tons, 11.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 228 tons, 1.2 %
   Machinery: 931 tons, 4.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,869 tons, 35.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,755 tons, 9.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     30,164 lbs / 13,682 Kg = 24.5 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 3.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
   Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 15.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.38

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.696
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.88 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.12 ft / 5.22 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 62.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 35,147 Square feet or 3,265 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 146 lbs/sq ft or 714 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.23
      - Overall: 1.02
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc Weight:

250t: Fire Control
25t: Long Range Marconi
10t: Short Range Marconi
50t: Flag Facilities
65t: Reserve and other items

Costs:

Refurbishment Cost: $3.45
New Armament: $0.42, 0.21 BP
New Machinery: $1.86, 0.93 BP
New Armor: $0.19, 0.19 BP
Fire Control and Functional Misc: $0.26, 0.26 BP
Non-functional misc: $0.11, 0.11 BP

Totals: $6.29, 1.7 BP
Time: 8 months (minimum)

[Guinness]

It is expected that refits to the Nuevo Leons in the near future will also be fairly costly, so designers were also asked to consider reuse of materials from the 4 semi-dreadnoughts in two new ships. In the end, they concluded that only the main armament mounts, minus their original armor, could likely be reused, with the rest of the ships scrapped. The main advantage of these ships would be that they would have speed equal to the Tennessees and a "modern" armor arrangement.

Vanguarding Concept, CSA Battleship laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   30,720 t light; 32,432 t standard; 34,287 t normal; 35,770 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   688.00 ft / 675.00 ft x 103.00 ft x 27.18 ft (normal load)
   209.70 m / 205.74 m x 31.39 m  x 8.29 m

Armament:
      8 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,250.00lbs / 566.99kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,250.00lbs / 566.99kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all amidships
      16 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      2 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1917 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 16,210 lbs / 7,353 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   437.00 ft / 133.20 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   437.00 ft / 133.20 m   29.50 ft / 8.99 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.5" / 368 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      13.0" / 330 mm
   2nd:   14.5" / 368 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      13.0" / 330 mm
   3rd:   1.50" / 38 mm         -         3.00" / 76 mm
   4th:         -      1.00" / 25 mm            -
   5th:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 14.50" / 368 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 52,668 shp / 39,290 Kw = 23.00 kts
   Range 8,360nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,338 tons

Complement:
   1,259 - 1,637

Cost:
   £5.529 million / $22.114 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,013 tons, 5.9 %
   Armour: 12,500 tons, 36.5 %
      - Belts: 3,980 tons, 11.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 954 tons, 2.8 %
      - Armament: 3,835 tons, 11.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 3,401 tons, 9.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 330 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,962 tons, 5.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,829 tons, 40.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,567 tons, 10.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 415 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     53,137 lbs / 24,103 Kg = 43.2 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 9.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 6.3 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 17.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.68
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.40

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.635
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.55 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.98 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 24.52 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.50 ft / 8.69 m
      - Forecastle (18 %):   25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Mid (56 %):      24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (18 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.09 ft / 6.43 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 167.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 52,530 Square feet or 4,880 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 198 lbs/sq ft or 967 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.33
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc Weights:
250 t Fire Control
25 t Marconi
25 t Marconi
50 t Flag Facilities
65t: Reserve

Cost adjustments:

Main armament from previous ships: 1845t, $1.85 and 1.85 BP

Scrap value of previous ships:
Virginia: $2.45 and 2.45 BP
Nuevo Leon: $2.41 and 2.41 BP

Total of salvage and scrapped material: $6.71 and 6.71 BP
Adjusted cost: $23.99 and 23.99 BP

[Carthaginian]

Yeah... the NL's are pretty much outclassed all the way around these days.
Best thing to do is to use what you can and get rid of them.

I like the Vanguard... good ship for a very good value.

[The Rock Doctor]

They would be effective ships - but if everything except the guns is new, why not just spend the additional ~3 BP to get newer guns?

[Guinness]

Well, the Vanguarded one started out as an effort to reuse some armor and gun mounts. I think if I work a little harder at it, I could reuse the face armor from the main gun mounts as well, which would save me a few hundred more tons. I'm not so sure about any of the belt though. The NL's have 13.7" belts that are 12 feet tall. I suppose if enough of that material could be reused to fit out 2/3 of the new ships belts, there would be significant savings there too, but I have no idea if that is possible. And what about barbettes too? Could they be cut out and reassembled in a new ship?

If I just scrapped the semi-dreads, I'd have around $10 and 10BP to pour into successors to the Tennessees. That would save me about 1/6 of the cost of a pair of those which isn't bad either. I suppose all 24 of those old 13.5" guns could get emplaced somewhere on land too.

The other good reason to reuse them though would be to force myself to draw a 6 turreted ship ;)

I'm sure I could come up with some intractable Congress or Woodrow Wilson in the White House story.

[Korpen]

Well, the Vanguarded one started out as an effort to reuse some armor and gun mounts. I think if I work a little harder at it, I could reuse the face armor from the main gun mounts as well, which would save me a few hundred more tons. I'm not so sure about any of the belt though. The NL's have 13.7" belts that are 12 feet tall. I suppose if enough of that material could be reused to fit out 2/3 of the new ships belts, there would be significant savings there too, but I have no idea if that is possible. And what about barbettes too? Could they be cut out and reassembled in a new ship?

I would not recommend re-using the armour, as the NLs do not have Krupp (1900-tech) armour but compound (1890 tech)-armour.

[Guinness]

I haven't been sure about when the CSA achieved Krupp Cemented, as the data I have only goes back to 1/1908 (ie a year too late). Maybe Carthaginian can help me out here.

[Korpen]

I haven't been sure about when the CSA achieved Krupp Cemented, as the data I have only goes back to 1/1908 (ie a year too late). Maybe Carthaginian can help me out here.

Looking at the reports it was still researched in 2/1907 when the ships was laid down, so no krupp armour.

[Guinness]

blech. I guess I'll have to find another excuse to build a Confederate turret farm  ;D

[Carthaginian]

IIRC, all ships were awarded Krupp

I haven't been sure about when the CSA achieved Krupp Cemented, as the data I have only goes back to 1/1908 (ie a year too late). Maybe Carthaginian can help me out here.

Looking at the reports it was still researched in 2/1907 when the ships was laid down, so no krupp armour.

EDIT - the last of the NL's had Krupp armor... not the first two.
;)
Edit-Edit:
Also, the Harvey-Nickel armor was, according to P3D in this post, rolled into KC armor in 1910 with a rules change... not into compound. ;)
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1178.msg20741#msg20741

[Guinness]

Hmmm... interesting.

Even if I could reuse all that armor, I'd still have to refigure for the existing thicknesses. There's also the question of the 16 foot tall belt in the new design, versus the 12 foot tall one in the old design, which might still make this undoable.