Kingdom cost defence ship.

[Korpen]

Study for a cost defence ship / escort. Ships of this type would be intended for replacing aging armoured frigates as colonial flagships at distant stations in peace time. In wartime they would serve as long-range convoy escorts as their fighting capacity exceeds everything smaller then a battleship, and they are adequately protected against anything smaller then a 21cm gun.

Java, The Kingdom CDS laid down 1911 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   6 000 t light; 6 643 t standard; 7 926 t normal; 8 952 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   275,59 ft / 275,59 ft x 68,90 ft x 19,69 ft (normal load)
   84,00 m / 84,00 m x 21,00 m  x 6,00 m

Armament:
      4 - 13,78" / 350 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1 322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1911 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      10 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52,91lbs / 24,00kg shells, 1911 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 5 820 lbs / 2 640 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 147

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5,91" / 150 mm   196,85 ft / 60,00 m   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   1,97" / 50 mm   196,85 ft / 60,00 m   8,20 ft / 2,50 m
     Main Belt covers 110 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5,91" / 150 mm   3,94" / 100 mm      3,54" / 90 mm
   2nd:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1,77" / 45 mm, Conning tower: 3,94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9 000 shp / 6 714 Kw = 16,60 kts
   Range 10 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 309 tons

Complement:
   419 - 546

Cost:
   £0,872 million / $3,488 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 720 tons, 9,1 %
   Armour: 1 774 tons, 22,4 %
      - Belts: 839 tons, 10,6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 384 tons, 4,8 %
      - Armour Deck: 518 tons, 6,5 %
      - Conning Tower: 34 tons, 0,4 %
   Machinery: 409 tons, 5,2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 977 tons, 37,6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 926 tons, 24,3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 1,5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     8 564 lbs / 3 885 Kg = 6,5 x 13,8 " / 350 mm shells or 1,6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,09
   Metacentric height 3,4 ft / 1,0 m
   Roll period: 15,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,89
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,14

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,742
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16,60 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14,76 ft / 4,50 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14,76 ft / 4,50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14,76 ft / 4,50 m
      - Stern:      14,76 ft / 4,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   14,90 ft / 4,54 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88,6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106,0 %
   Waterplane Area: 15 795 Square feet or 1 467 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 141 lbs/sq ft or 688 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,85
      - Longitudinal: 4,02
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Blooded]

Hello,

At first I was intrigued. But it didn't last.  :'(

I hadn't really looked at the Kingdoms 'bathtubs' before. The BCs seem a bit to high on the older ones. The lack of ships boats(or access to them) won't help crew morale.

I think this design shows how weak SS can be. It really can't fit all of that and I can't believe it would have good ratings(seakeeping, gunnery, good space-where does all that oil go?).

To get an idea of what we are looking at, I copied, resized and pasted a few ships together. 2 of yours at top(your newest with 13.78" guns and your smallest). the 3rd is a peice together of both for this design. 4th the latest defiant lightBB I've been working on.  Last the Arkansas monitor class(BC around .71-2x12"/35 and 4x4"). They should all be close to 1 pixel per foot.

[Korpen]

Hello,

At first I was intrigued. But it didn't last.  :'(

I hadn't really looked at the Kingdoms 'bathtubs' before. The BCs seem a bit to high on the older ones. The lack of ships boats(or access to them) won't help crew morale.

The lack of boats i mostly due to the fact that i do not often bother drawing them on my scetches. :)
As the small ones are at a scale of rougly 50cm to a pixel, smller details are tricky.

And as for the funny shape of the old ones, much of that have to do with the restrictions i got when redesigning the ships i inherited (also the reason they all got a hull strenght of 1,10).

I think this design shows how weak SS can be. It really can't fit all of that and I can't believe it would have good ratings(seakeeping, gunnery, good space-where does all that oil go?).

The ship is based on a design that was discussed regarding New Zion:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1008.msg7354#msg7354 (with drawing)
As can be seen, it really is not that much to fit.
Remember that seakeeping is always a relative number, a 28kts ship of 25kton is de facto a better seaboat then a 6kton, 16kts one with a seakeeping of 1,5.

To get an idea of what we are looking at, I copied, resized and pasted a few ships together. 2 of yours at top(your newest with 13.78" guns and your smallest). the 3rd is a peice together of both for this design. 4th the latest defiant lightBB I've been working on.  Last the Arkansas monitor class(BC around .71-2x12"/35 and 4x4"). They should all be close to 1 pixel per foot.

What kind of foot, Dutch, German, Bavarian, Prussian, French, Turkish, English, Russsian, Swedish, Gorilla, Spanish or Belgian? ;)

[The Rock Doctor]

That's a pretty squat hull form.  I'm inclined to think she'd be more cramped than the SS suggests. 

What does she look like if you trim the BC down to 0.65 and add whatever length is necessary for the same displacement?

How much additional freeboard is needed to get rid of the "wet forward" note?  Your forward turret won't be very far back of the bow, and I could see its operations being impaired by spray.

[Korpen]

That's a pretty squat hull form.  I'm inclined to think she'd be more cramped than the SS suggests. 

What does she look like if you trim the BC down to 0.65 and add whatever length is necessary for the same displacement?

She will then be 10m longer and have a freeboard 1m lower. Not that keen on that tradeoff.

How much additional freeboard is needed to get rid of the "wet forward" note?  Your forward turret won't be very far back of the bow, and I could see its operations being impaired by spray.

Good point.
And it need not much at all, raising the stem by 6dm was enogh to get rid of the "wet"-note.

[Jefgte]

That's a good idea to increase the job of the coastal BB to escort.
Repulse raider or enemy cruiser.

Increase also the speed & this escort BB is able to help BB in the battleline.


Jef

[Jefgte]

Testing quickly a rapid Escort/Coastle/Battleline BB

NM7-KIRUNO class, Alt Monitor laid down 1911

Displacement:
   8 009 t light; 8 500 t standard; 9 481 t normal; 10 266 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   452.76 ft / 452.76 ft x 76.77 ft x 16.32 ft (normal load)
   138.00 m / 138.00 m x 23.40 m  x 4.97 m

Armament:
      4 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1 308.20lbs / 593.39kg shells, 1911 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
      8 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1911 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 5 670 lbs / 2 572 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 94
   2 - 17.7" / 450 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.91" / 150 mm   249.34 ft / 76.00 m   10.83 ft / 3.30 m
   Ends:   1.18" / 30 mm     65.62 ft / 20.00 m   10.83 ft / 3.30 m
     137.80 ft / 42.00 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.91" / 150 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      5.51" / 140 mm
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.77" / 45 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 19 000 shp / 14 174 Kw = 20.94 kts
   Range 8 000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 766 tons

Complement:
   479 - 624

Cost:
   £0.984 million / $3.934 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 709 tons, 7.5 %
   Armour: 2 042 tons, 21.5 %
      - Belts: 765 tons, 8.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 399 tons, 4.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 822 tons, 8.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 57 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 771 tons, 8.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4 467 tons, 47.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 472 tons, 15.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 0.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     13 091 lbs / 5 938 Kg = 10.0 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
   Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 14.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.19

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.585
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.90 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.28 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21.52 ft / 6.56 m
      - Forecastle (19 %):   16.80 ft / 5.12 m
      - Mid (50 %):      13.52 ft / 4.12 m
      - Quarterdeck (18 %):   13.52 ft / 4.12 m
      - Stern:      13.52 ft / 4.12 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.01 ft / 4.57 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 25 068 Square feet or 2 329 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 140 lbs/sq ft or 683 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.61
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Top view

-------------------C----C-------------
----------A--B----F--F-----B--A---------
-------------------C----C-------------

A = T2x350
B = Bridge
F = Funnel
C = 120mm in casemate

[Korpen]

Testing quickly a rapid Escort/Coastle/Battleline BB

NM7-KIRUNO class, Alt Monitor laid down 1911

Displacement:
   8 009 t light; 8 500 t standard; 9 481 t normal; 10 266 t full load

Not a bad ship per se, but i feel that the sacrifices for the higher speed no not be worth it.
She is 30% larger, and her combat power is only equal, or in some cases worse then Java.

So while I like speed, in ships like this I do not think it is necessary, and it drives up the cost of the ship quite allot, making building more then one or two cost-prohibited.

[The Rock Doctor]

I think the size of Jefgte's ship is more appropriate to the armament but am kinda in agreement on the speed - primarily because the ship is going to be pinned to its convoy (or whatever its charge is) and won't have so much room to manuever.

On the other hand, if you were to take Jefgte's design and reduce speed in favor of heavier deck armor, the ship would be much less vulnerable to capital ship fire from long distance.

[Jefgte]

An other thing...

Why use so heavy guns ...350mm ?
Armour is unable to counter heavy BB shell & she could 'nt maintain the distance with a classic BB.
350mm are too heavy to repulse raider or cruiser - just 8 x350shells/mn - 120mm as secondary are short again to repulse cruiser or raider

I have tested 2T280 + 8x150 - 21kts on 6500T...like you

Alborg, nav Monitor laid down 1912

Displacement:
   6 134 t light; 6 500 t standard; 7 495 t normal; 8 291 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   400.26 ft / 400.26 ft x 72.18 ft x 16.07 ft (normal load)
   122.00 m / 122.00 m x 22.00 m  x 4.90 m

Armament:
      4 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (2x2 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.82kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 3 701 lbs / 1 679 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 17.7" / 450 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.91" / 150 mm   209.97 ft / 64.00 m   10.83 ft / 3.30 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   137.80 ft / 42.00 m   10.83 ft / 3.30 m
     52.49 ft / 16.00 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 81 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.91" / 150 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      5.51" / 140 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.77" / 45 mm, Conning tower: 5.51" / 140 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 17 000 shp / 12 682 Kw = 20.92 kts
   Range 10 000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 791 tons

Complement:
   402 - 523

Cost:
   £0.698 million / $2.793 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 463 tons, 6.2 %
   Armour: 1 810 tons, 24.2 %
      - Belts: 740 tons, 9.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 355 tons, 4.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 670 tons, 8.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 45 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 678 tons, 9.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 163 tons, 42.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 361 tons, 18.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 0.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     11 237 lbs / 5 097 Kg = 16.8 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.29
   Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 13.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.36
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.17

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.565
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.55 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.01 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21.98 ft / 6.70 m
      - Forecastle (18 %):   17.39 ft / 5.30 m
      - Mid (30 %):      14.11 ft / 4.30 m
      - Quarterdeck (17 %):   14.11 ft / 4.30 m
      - Stern:      14.11 ft / 4.30 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.23 ft / 4.64 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 20 448 Square feet or 1 900 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 118 lbs/sq ft or 578 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.86
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

-------------------------------------
It is certainly possible to have:
2T2x254 +10x180 - 21kts for 6500T



Jef

[Ithekro]

I'll assume the Dutch want to use there newer larger guns with there proven fire control for longer ranged engagements.  Well longer ranged than the 11 inch guns anyway (though the difference is likely mininal with visual spotting).

[Korpen]

I'll assume the Dutch want to use there newer larger guns with there proven fire control for longer ranged engagements.  Well longer ranged than the 11 inch guns anyway (though the difference is likely mininal with visual spotting).

Not after the range as much as the stopping power. A 28cm shell is unlikley to be effective against most larger ships here (as most ships here carry allot more armour then historically), at least at anything but very short range.

An other thing...

Why use so heavy guns ...350mm ?
Armour is unable to counter heavy BB shell & she could 'nt maintain the distance with a classic BB.
350mm are too heavy to repulse raider or cruiser - just 8 x350shells/mn - 120mm as secondary are short again to repulse cruiser or raider

The size of the guns is dictated by the need to be able to hurt enemy battleships, a 28cm gun (of which i got none) is simply not capable to hurt ships with 30cm of armour at distances over 8-9km, while a 35cm gun is dangerous up to any range to any ship (almost). This is important as they will never be able to set range against an enemy, so one wants to minimize the risk of the opponent engaging from a range were ones own guns is unlikley to hurt him.
Another advantage of the larger shells is that it allows one to fire SAP against medium armoured targets (such as cruisers), resulting in almost twice the payload.

While the 12cm might lack a bit of power in this employment, it is pretty much my standard secondary / destroyer gun, so i prefere to keep that one. Also it is a decent compromise gun, as it got more range and power then a 10cm gun, while allowing more guns and higer ROF then 15cm gun allow.

I have tested 2T280 + 8x150 - 21kts on 6500T...like you
Alborg, nav Monitor laid down 1912

Displacement:
   6 134 t light; 6 500 t standard; 7 495 t normal; 8 291 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   400.26 ft / 400.26 ft x 72.18 ft x 16.07 ft (normal load)
   122.00 m / 122.00 m x 22.00 m  x 4.90 m

Armament:
      4 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (2x2 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.82kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 3 701 lbs / 1 679 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 17.7" / 450 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Very close to a clone of the Sweden-Class :)

[Jefgte]

Ok for the big guns ( I like big guns  ;)

16.6kts is a poor tactical speed.
The good speed is probably 21kts & 18kts is the minimum correct tatical speed.

That depend also the speed of your battle Squadron & the probable enemy speed.



Jef  ;)

[Korpen]

Ok for the big guns ( I like big guns  ;)

Your are not the only one who prefere to mount the largest guns...

16.6kts is a poor tactical speed.
The good speed is probably 21kts & 18kts is the minimum correct tatical speed.

That depend also the speed of your battle Squadron & the probable enemy speed.

Jef  ;)

I basically have two battle squadrons, with speeds of 21 and 25 kts.

But I do not see these ships as serving with the main portion of the fleet. The core squadron with the most modern armoured frigates and battleships will serve as a fire brigade to be deployed were needed. This ship I see as functioning primarily as station ships in my minor colonial positions; Africa, Caribbean and the south Atlantic. While I agree that 16kts is poor tactical speed, I cannot afford to make them larger then 6kton (lights), armour cannot really be thinner, or it will fail to protect against guns in the 15-20cm range, and as discussed above, I am unwilling to reduce firepower. This leaves speed as the capability I feel the ships can best afford to do without. 16kts puts the ship in the same speed bracket as my old pre-dreads, as well as most of my gunboats, minesweepers and other costal warships.

[Jefgte]

Korpen wrote:
"...16kts puts the ship in the same speed bracket as my old pre-dreads, as well as most of my gunboats, minesweepers and other costal warships..."

Ok, I understand, this ship is not alone but can serve with a pre-dreads Squadron & Gunboats.

With 350mm guns, I don't like to fight against your pre-dreads Squadron  :-\


Jef  ;)