Iberia BB1912

[miketr]

Most likely I am going to lay down my 26 knot, 23,750 ton light AC's but I am considering building something else.  Any thoughts?  The AC is at the bottom as a comparison between the two.

Michael

BB-1912, Iberia Battleship laid down 1912

Displacement:
   25,001 t light; 26,511 t standard; 28,286 t normal; 29,706 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   600.00 ft / 600.00 ft x 100.00 ft x 27.50 ft (normal load)
   182.88 m / 182.88 m x 30.48 m  x 8.38 m

Armament:
      10 - 12.99" / 330 mm guns (5x2 guns), 1,096.51lbs / 497.37kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12,746 lbs / 5,782 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   400.00 ft / 121.92 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   5.00" / 127 mm   200.00 ft / 60.96 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Upper:   10.0" / 254 mm   400.00 ft / 121.92 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   400.00 ft / 121.92 m   26.00 ft / 7.92 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   10.0" / 254 mm      12.0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   4.00" / 102 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 18.00" / 457 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 38,000 shp / 28,348 Kw = 21.64 kts
   Range 9,450nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,195 tons (67% coal)

Complement:
   1,089 - 1,417

Cost:
   £2.439 million / $9.757 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,593 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 11,297 tons, 39.9 %
      - Belts: 5,359 tons, 18.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 577 tons, 2.0 %
      - Armament: 2,971 tons, 10.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,030 tons, 7.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 360 tons, 1.3 %
   Machinery: 1,613 tons, 5.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,097 tons, 35.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,285 tons, 11.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     38,613 lbs / 17,514 Kg = 35.2 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 7.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
   Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 17.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.25

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.600
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.29 ft / 5.27 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 43,883 Square feet or 4,077 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 176 lbs/sq ft or 858 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.25
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

AC-1912d, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1912

Displacement:
   23,764 t light; 25,087 t standard; 26,835 t normal; 28,234 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   650.00 ft / 650.00 ft x 93.00 ft x 27.50 ft (normal load)
   198.12 m / 198.12 m x 28.35 m  x 8.38 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.99" / 330 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,096.51lbs / 497.37kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 10,553 lbs / 4,787 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   420.00 ft / 128.02 m   12.50 ft / 3.81 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   230.00 ft / 70.10 m   12.50 ft / 3.81 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   420.00 ft / 128.02 m   12.75 ft / 3.89 m
     Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   420.00 ft / 128.02 m   24.32 ft / 7.41 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   10.0" / 254 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   4.00" / 102 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 70,654 shp / 52,708 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 9,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,147 tons (67% coal)

Complement:
   1,047 - 1,362

Cost:
   £2.360 million / $9.439 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,319 tons, 4.9 %
   Armour: 8,865 tons, 33.0 %
      - Belts: 3,626 tons, 13.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 567 tons, 2.1 %
      - Armament: 2,462 tons, 9.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,979 tons, 7.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 232 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 3,000 tons, 11.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,267 tons, 38.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,071 tons, 11.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 313 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     33,608 lbs / 15,244 Kg = 30.6 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 5.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
   Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 17.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.565
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.99 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.50 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (50 %):      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Stern:      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.91 ft / 6.37 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 42,785 Square feet or 3,975 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 835 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.32
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Edit 1: Put up AC with extra armor belt length to cover mags

[P3D]

As Iberia does not have any other modern battleship, I prefer the AC with a few changes :

- make it bigger: displacement, deeper draught, beam and length
- stability is marginal
- thicker than 1" armor, esp. on the barbettes

You have 10,000SHP margin to play with.

If you want a BB, I'd try to make it smaller (8x13" on ~18000t) and build two.

[miketr]

As an FYI Iberia would build two of whichever desing is the winner.  More detailed responce later.

Michael

[Carthaginian]

Well, since the BC will go *BOOM* because of the insufficient armor coverage, I'd go with the BB.

[Sachmle]

I'd up armor the AC, specifically so it covers the mags/engineering spaces. Of course since the BB is only 1.75BP more, and at 21+ knots still pretty quick for a 25k BB in 1912.

[Ithekro]

Depends on what purpose the vessel will have and what operating area it is expected to patrol.

That said, both ships are quite servicable.  I might try to go for a middle ground vessel that has the 330mmm cannons and maybe 23 to 24 knots speed and then start to average the fleet speed based on that vessel.  They will be faster than most line battleships and no too much slower than the battlecruisers of the world at this time to allow the BCs a viable speed advantage.

Also armored enough to take long range hits from its own main battery.  In case it does have to engage battlecruisers and slower battleships at range.

[P3D]

A 23-24kts ship with 10x13" and 13" armor would be 22-23000t.

[miketr]

I am considering a BB design because I have no modern BB's and it is a need but I have lots of needs.

Fast BB Concept...  I think its a little large with only eight 13" guns.  Sooo...  Lets try for ten on the same displacement and speed, but it has most of the complaints of the 23,750 ton design.   Just larger and 20% more firepower.

Michael

AC-1912e, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1912

Displacement:
   27,500 t light; 28,902 t standard; 30,814 t normal; 32,344 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   665.00 ft / 665.00 ft x 100.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
   202.69 m / 202.69 m x 30.48 m  x 8.53 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.99" / 330 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,096.51lbs / 497.37kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 10,553 lbs / 4,787 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   400.00 ft / 121.92 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   265.00 ft / 80.77 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   400.00 ft / 121.92 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
     Main Belt covers 93 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm     40.00 ft / 12.19 m   26.14 ft / 7.97 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   10.0" / 254 mm      13.0" / 330 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 78,000 shp / 58,188 Kw = 26.05 kts
   Range 9,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,442 tons (67% coal)

Complement:
   1,162 - 1,511

Cost:
   £2.534 million / $10.137 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,319 tons, 4.3 %
   Armour: 10,890 tons, 35.3 %
      - Belts: 5,261 tons, 17.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 58 tons, 0.2 %
      - Armament: 3,090 tons, 10.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,206 tons, 7.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 275 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 3,312 tons, 10.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,487 tons, 37.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,314 tons, 10.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 492 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     42,892 lbs / 19,455 Kg = 39.1 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 5.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
   Metacentric height 5.5 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 17.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.579
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.65 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.79 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27.00 ft / 8.23 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (50 %):      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Stern:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.29 ft / 6.79 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 169.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 47,699 Square feet or 4,431 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 174 lbs/sq ft or 852 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.35
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

AC-1912f, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1912

Displacement:
   27,500 t light; 29,064 t standard; 30,983 t normal; 32,518 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   665.00 ft / 665.00 ft x 100.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
   202.69 m / 202.69 m x 30.48 m  x 8.53 m

Armament:
      10 - 12.99" / 330 mm guns (5x2 guns), 1,096.51lbs / 497.37kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12,746 lbs / 5,782 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   425.00 ft / 129.54 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   240.00 ft / 73.15 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   425.00 ft / 129.54 m   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
     Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   425.00 ft / 129.54 m   26.14 ft / 7.97 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   10.0" / 254 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.25" / 57 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 78,000 shp / 58,188 Kw = 26.02 kts
   Range 9,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,454 tons (67% coal)

Complement:
   1,166 - 1,517

Cost:
   £2.765 million / $11.058 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,593 tons, 5.1 %
   Armour: 10,188 tons, 32.9 %
      - Belts: 3,991 tons, 12.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 617 tons, 2.0 %
      - Armament: 3,334 tons, 10.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,991 tons, 6.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 255 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 3,312 tons, 10.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,897 tons, 38.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,483 tons, 11.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 510 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     39,407 lbs / 17,875 Kg = 35.9 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 5.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
   Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 18.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.582
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.65 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.79 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27.00 ft / 8.23 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (50 %):      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Stern:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.29 ft / 6.79 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 169.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 47,842 Square feet or 4,445 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 180 lbs/sq ft or 880 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.35
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[miketr]

Any comments?

Michael

[Carthaginian]

Well, I think that Iberia would be better off building several smaller ships with smaller guns or slower speeds. As it is, it seems that that we're all trying to build the Hood at a time when battleships were barely breaking the 20,000 ton mark. Sure, she's got a high top speed and a good armament/armor scheme... but she's almost 30,000 tons light.

To me, that's too many eggs in one basket.
A ship that might be called upon to fight a war in the Med should be smaller and less painful to loose. I'd go with 3 ships of 20,000 tons rather than 2 ships of 30,000 tons.

[Sachmle]

^What he said. ;)
If I had to choose between the last 2 I'd go w/ the 1912f, more firepower, slightly less armor. More along RL lines, but Carth's right, with no modern BBs you need numbers, not size.  Let the Maori build huge floating TB targets, build more mid size ships.

[P3D]

Battlecruisers don't need so many guns, being limited to these designs I'd prefer #1.
Undergunned, but if you want 26kts speed, she has to be. My previous comments still stand, I'd build smaller and slower ships.

[miketr]

I agree that the larger ships are too big, note the AC which I leaned towards is 4,000 tons light smaller, the problem is this; I don't have to worry about fighting a war in the Med but a war in the Atlantic or Caribbean or Mediterranean or Western Pacific or some combination of the above.  The Pacific is my main worry because its so far away from my center of strength in Brazil/Iberia but other than Korpen and now Valles (he is also far away though its actually empty of player nations in the western Pacific.  From a role playing point of view Japan and New Switzerland are something to worry about and relations between Iberia and the Netherlands are in the gutter.  I have or will enough small cruisers, destroyers and soon subs for the Mediterranean if that is something to worry about.  The Netherlands Armored Frigates are more what I am worried about in the short term. 

The Netherlands worry demands 26 knots speed, enough firepower to defeat 9" armor belt but those ships guns are so heavy that I am not sure I can be well armored against them.  To meet these needs I came up with the following design.

The reason for the 13" gun design was that I wanted to try for more firepower on about the same displacement.  The problem with a pure BB design is unless I build atleast 4 of them what good does it do me?  If I build something smaller what good does it do me if it can't run down / run away from other ships?  Everything is pushing me towards a large cruiser in my mind.

Michael

AC-1912c, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1912

Displacement:
   23,500 t light; 24,812 t standard; 26,711 t normal; 28,230 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   650.00 ft / 650.00 ft x 94.00 ft x 27.25 ft (normal load)
   198.12 m / 198.12 m x 28.65 m  x 8.31 m

Armament:
      10 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (5x2 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.67kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 10,438 lbs / 4,735 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   418.00 ft / 127.41 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   232.00 ft / 70.71 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   418.00 ft / 127.41 m   12.75 ft / 3.89 m
     Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   418.00 ft / 127.41 m   24.32 ft / 7.41 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   10.0" / 254 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   4.00" / 102 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 70,500 shp / 52,593 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 10,410nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,418 tons (67% coal)

Complement:
   1,044 - 1,358

Cost:
   £2.338 million / $9.350 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,305 tons, 4.9 %
   Armour: 8,657 tons, 32.4 %
      - Belts: 3,513 tons, 13.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 564 tons, 2.1 %
      - Armament: 2,754 tons, 10.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,595 tons, 6.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 231 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,993 tons, 11.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,165 tons, 38.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,211 tons, 12.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 380 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     33,682 lbs / 15,278 Kg = 38.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
   Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 17.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.562
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.91 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.50 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27.00 ft / 8.23 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (50 %):      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Stern:      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.99 ft / 6.40 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 158.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 43,104 Square feet or 4,004 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 169 lbs/sq ft or 825 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.29
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Michael

[P3D]

If 12", I'd have 4T2 and push speed to the limits.
Otherwise go with the 8x13" one. But 55000t would give three decent small BB.

[miketr]

Here is my question...  Define Decent?  We are talking about 18,000 tons a ship, soo...  12" or 13" guns (4 or 5 twins), OK armor and about 21 knots speed I figure but people are building 14" gunned warships.  Is there a hole in my logic that I laid out for the AC's? 

As to a 4 twin 12" at 27 knots looks possible but would require massive fine tuning of the hull to achieve.  I am not sure I want to ditch 20% of the firepower for 1 knot of speed.

Michael