Iberia Patrol Cruiser (2,000 tons)

[The Rock Doctor]

I'd go with the 28 knot version, myself. 

[miketr]

I'd go with the 28 knot version, myself. 

Any thought on the layout?  Does it look reasonable?

Michael

[The Rock Doctor]

I think I'd dump the 75mm guns for a sixth 120mm, a smaller AA gun and miscellaneous weight.  I'd put the AA gun where your midships 120 is currently sited.  The displaced 120 and the new 120 would be installed on either side of the second funnel - gives you five gun broadsides, or three engaging to each beam.

If there is scope for additional miscellaneous weight left over, a long-range wireless might be a better choice of equipment, especially for the Filipino-based ships, which will have a larger operating area.

[miketr]

The problem is Iberia has no AAA tech to speak of, as a midlife refit odds are I will add some but there just isn't any to put on right now.  Also I have a very fine hull I am not sure if putting beam 120's would work.

If I delete 2 of the 75's, use up the construction reserve and reduce shp by 250 I can support a long range radio.  Down the road I guess I will delete the 75's for AAA 75's.

I think the design is set... now to come up with the $ and BP to build them... :(

PC-1911 2.5k-g1, Iberia Patrol Cruiser laid down 1911 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   2,500 t light; 2,599 t standard; 2,854 t normal; 3,058 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 42.65 ft x 13.12 ft (normal load)
   120.00 m / 120.00 m x 13.00 m  x 4.00 m

Armament:
      5 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 315 lbs / 143 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 225
   6 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Conning tower: 2.36" / 60 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 26,750 shp / 19,955 Kw = 28.05 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 459 tons (50% coal)

Complement:
   194 - 253

Cost:
   £0.297 million / $1.188 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 39 tons, 1.4 %
   Armour: 29 tons, 1.0 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 19 tons, 0.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 10 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,261 tons, 44.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,140 tons, 39.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 354 tons, 12.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 31 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,692 lbs / 767 Kg = 32.1 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.29
   Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 12.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.24
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.10

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.453
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.23 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.22 ft / 5.25 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   15.58 ft / 4.75 m
      - Mid (50 %):      13.78 ft / 4.20 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.78 ft / 4.20 m
      - Stern:      13.78 ft / 4.20 m
      - Average freeboard:   14.54 ft / 4.43 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 155.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 10,740 Square feet or 998 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 66 lbs/sq ft or 321 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.61
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Long range radio 25 tons, Six 20" torpedos (2x3) 6 tons and 0 tons construction reserve

Michael

[The Rock Doctor]

Good point on the beam/fine hull. 

[miketr]

This is a follow on design for my patrol cruiser...  Same basic hull but with improved engines and new gun tech.

PC-1913 2.5k-a, Iberia Patrol Cruiser laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   2,500 t light; 2,605 t standard; 2,854 t normal; 3,053 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 42.65 ft x 13.12 ft (normal load)
   120.00 m / 120.00 m x 13.00 m  x 4.00 m

Armament:
      6 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (3x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 368 lbs / 167 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 225
   6 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Conning tower: 2.36" / 60 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 29,000 shp / 21,634 Kw = 28.61 kts
   Range 5,650nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 449 tons (50% coal)

Complement:
   194 - 253

Cost:
   £0.322 million / $1.289 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 46 tons, 1.6 %
   Armour: 29 tons, 1.0 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 19 tons, 0.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 10 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,210 tons, 42.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,172 tons, 41.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 354 tons, 12.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 42 tons, 1.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,728 lbs / 784 Kg = 32.8 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
   Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 12.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.28
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.453
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.23 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.22 ft / 5.25 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   15.58 ft / 4.75 m
      - Mid (50 %):      13.78 ft / 4.20 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.78 ft / 4.20 m
      - Stern:      13.78 ft / 4.20 m
      - Average freeboard:   14.54 ft / 4.43 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 151.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 10,740 Square feet or 998 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 68 lbs/sq ft or 330 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.65
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Long range radio 25 tons, FC Six 20" torpedos (2x3) 6 tons and 11 tons construction reserve

[miketr]

No comments?

[Sachmle]

No comments?

Sorry. Seaboat's a little low, but whatta do w/ 2.5k? No armor at all, except the CT and splinter protection on the guns? Kinda expensive for such an easy kill.

[khymerion]

I like it for patrol work.  A bit expensive but it isn't too pricey.

[P3D]

I don't like the lack of armor. The only advantage over a large destroyer is the better habitability and somewhat higher survivability. Too short-ranged.

In theory the ship won't meet too many destroyers (different missions).
Almost any naval ships encountered on a patrol would have more powerful (5.5"+) armament (destroyers discounted) and at least some armor. From my simming combat for similar Swiss ships, the lack of armor is very bad idea.

[miketr]

I need to patrol all the central and south Atlantic, western Pacific, western Mediterranean Sea (post war eastern too, I hope), Indian Ocean and Caribbean.  My new Protected Cruiser design is just short of 7 BP's each.  I could build four of those a year but have nothing left over.  I need raw numbers and no I don't expect these patrol cruisers to do well if they face a cruiser.  They don't have the guns or armor to stand up to them.  I expect them to show the Iberian flag and in war time to operate with the DD's / fight enemy TB's.  They have the speed for that.

If I cut off 3,000 shp and switched to all oil fired boilers and I get this design.  Just under a knot of speed lost and I get a 50mm belt but not deck armor.  I could give it a 25mm belt and a 12.5mm deck, no idea what good that would be though.

PC-1913 2.5k-b, Iberia Patrol Cruiser laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   2,500 t light; 2,600 t standard; 2,854 t normal; 3,057 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 42.65 ft x 13.12 ft (normal load)
   120.00 m / 120.00 m x 13.00 m  x 4.00 m

Armament:
      6 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (3x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 368 lbs / 167 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   6 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   1.97" / 50 mm   337.27 ft / 102.80 m   7.84 ft / 2.39 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 132 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 26,000 shp / 19,396 Kw = 27.86 kts
   Range 6,725nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 457 tons

Complement:
   194 - 253

Cost:
   £0.296 million / $1.184 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 46 tons, 1.6 %
   Armour: 236 tons, 8.3 %
      - Belts: 208 tons, 7.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 19 tons, 0.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 9 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 1,037 tons, 36.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,151 tons, 40.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 354 tons, 12.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 31 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     2,267 lbs / 1,028 Kg = 43.0 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
   Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 12.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.27
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.453
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.23 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.22 ft / 5.25 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   15.58 ft / 4.75 m
      - Mid (50 %):      13.45 ft / 4.10 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.45 ft / 4.10 m
      - Stern:      13.45 ft / 4.10 m
      - Average freeboard:   14.33 ft / 4.37 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 131.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 10,740 Square feet or 998 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 67 lbs/sq ft or 327 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.59
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Long range radio 25 tons, Six 20" torpedos (2x3) 6 tons and 0 tons construction reserve

[P3D]

Both the protected and the patrol cruiser has the same designation (PC), bit confusing.
No design with 4-6x6" on 29kts?

[miketr]

For combat vessels I have the following.

TB - Torpedo Boat
--From the pop corn 300 ton TB's to the larger 500 ton Fleet TB's
TBD - Torpedo Boat Destroyer
--750 ton and new larger ships armed with 105mm guns
PC - Protected Cruiser
--Anything bigger than a TB and armed with smaller than an 8" gun (really 150mm down to 105mm for the older designs)
AC - Armored Cruiser
--Anything armed with 8" or larger guns and faster than a BB
BB - Battle Ship
--Big guns, armor and slow


I don't know what good four 6" weapons would be...  sure it can hurt the larger protected cruisers, it's still not going to win.  I would rather have the higher rate of fire of the 120mm weapons vs. lighter targets and if I have any chance either way its going to be from the 6 torpedo's.  Might as well be more usefull vs. the TB's.

Part of the problem is I want to keep these things down to 120 meters in length otherwise I will need to upgrade my bases even more than already.  I could build a 3,500 ton design I am sure that could have some armor and the higher speed but... that would mean increasing the design size by 40% and would require increasing the size of my dry docks even more than I currently have to.

[miketr]

OK here is the larger patrol cruiser...  I can get a 29 knot design BUT its going to cost my 2 of 120mm's, seakeeping down to 1.1, 50 rounds per gun, a bunch of misc weight AND an inch of belt armor.

Michael

PC-1913-3.5K-a, Iberia Protected Cruiser laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   3,500 t light; 3,647 t standard; 3,930 t normal; 4,157 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   426.51 ft / 426.51 ft x 46.26 ft x 13.94 ft (normal load)
   130.00 m / 130.00 m x 14.10 m  x 4.25 m

Armament:
      8 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (4x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 0.49" / 12.5 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1913 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 474 lbs / 215 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   6 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   1.97" / 50 mm   338.29 ft / 103.11 m   7.84 ft / 2.39 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 122 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 32,060 shp / 23,916 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 6,080nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 510 tons

Complement:
   247 - 322

Cost:
   £0.383 million / $1.532 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 59 tons, 1.5 %
   Armour: 486 tons, 12.4 %
      - Belts: 212 tons, 5.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 24 tons, 0.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 239 tons, 6.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 11 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 1,278 tons, 32.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,530 tons, 38.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 430 tons, 10.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 147 tons, 3.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3,620 lbs / 1,642 Kg = 68.7 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
   Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 13.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.30
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.500
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.22 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.65 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Mid (50 %):      15.09 ft / 4.60 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   15.09 ft / 4.60 m
      - Stern:      15.09 ft / 4.60 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.39 ft / 5.00 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 122.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 13,146 Square feet or 1,221 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 71 lbs/sq ft or 349 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.69
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Long range radio 25 tons, Six 20" torpedos (2x3) 6 tons and 116 tons construction reserve

[Sachmle]

For another 1k you could have my Nueva's. They have more range: 7500@12 vs 6080@10, more armour: 2" deck, 6" CT. Unfortunately no belt. More firepower: 2x1x6", 10x1x4", 2x1x2" only 4TT. Only 1 knot slower, but that's w/ 1909 engines. I don't have SS w/ me at work tonight or I'd fudge w/ it to see what can be done on 4000t w/ 1912 engines. Here's the post: http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1507.msg19502#msg19502