New Confederate Ships 1910/1911

[Carthaginian]

A re-working of the design to move the break forward.



TR-1911X, Confederate States of America Torpedo Ram laid down 1911 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   300 t light; 310 t standard; 342 t normal; 368 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   230.00 ft / 230.00 ft x 20.00 ft x 6.00 ft (normal load)
   70.10 m / 70.10 m x 6.10 m  x 1.83 m

Armament:
      1 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
      4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.05lbs / 0.02kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 27 lbs / 12 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes, 1 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 7,526 shp / 5,614 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 1,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 58 tons

Complement:
   39 - 51

Cost:
   £0.038 million / $0.151 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3 tons, 0.9 %
   Armour: 5 tons, 1.4 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 2 tons, 0.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 3 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 176 tons, 51.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 101 tons, 29.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 42 tons, 12.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 15 tons, 4.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     78 lbs / 36 Kg = 3.7 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
   Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 10.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.13
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.434
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.17 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Mid (35 %):      13.00 ft / 3.96 m (6.00 ft / 1.83 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   6.00 ft / 1.83 m
      - Stern:      6.00 ft / 1.83 m
      - Average freeboard:   9.07 ft / 2.76 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 194.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 50.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 2,753 Square feet or 256 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 47 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 87 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.56
      - Overall: 0.56
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[P3D]

Good.

[Carthaginian]

Thanks. She does look more pleasing to the eye, and is as accurate as I can get a good coastal destroyer. I should have tried for another 3.5" gun, but I figure that I'll just wait till I get through with my 10-pounder 2.75"/50 gun before I change the guns on her. Three of those will make her an excellent little ship in all regards, I think.

[Carthaginian]

The TR-200, though excellent for coastal duties, is insufficient for fleet duty requirements. Therefore, the call has gone out for an ocean-going escort that is capable of high-speed, possessed of good firepower and of a light weight. These new ships will abandon the designation 'torpedo ram' and will be given the designation of 'frigate' because they are not at all intended for the kind of coastal duties the torpedo ram designation entails.



F-01, Confederate States of America Frigate laid down 1911 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   600 t light; 629 t standard; 726 t normal; 804 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   300.00 ft / 295.00 ft x 26.00 ft x 7.00 ft (normal load)
   91.44 m / 89.92 m x 7.92 m  x 2.13 m

Armament:
      4 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1911 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (1x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1911 Model
     Machine guns in deck mount
     on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.05lbs / 0.02kg shells, 1911 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 103 lbs / 47 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   3 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12,727 shp / 9,494 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 2,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 175 tons

Complement:
   69 - 90

Cost:
   £0.080 million / $0.320 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 11 tons, 1.5 %
   Armour: 10 tons, 1.3 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 8 tons, 1.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 355 tons, 49.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 196 tons, 26.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 126 tons, 17.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 28 tons, 3.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     223 lbs / 101 Kg = 10.4 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.40
   Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 10.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.17
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.473
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.35 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m (6.00 ft / 1.83 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   6.00 ft / 1.83 m
      - Stern:      6.00 ft / 1.83 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.67 ft / 3.25 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 175.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,990 Square feet or 464 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 57 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 108 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.02
      - Overall: 0.54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Carthaginian]

Guess that 27 and 28 knots is about to be too slow for destroyers.
Might have to speed things up a bit.

[Korpen]

Guess that 27 and 28 knots is about to be too slow for destroyers.
Might have to speed things up a bit.

Speed never hurts.
But in the end it is down to what they are to be used for.

[Carthaginian]

Well, unfortunately, if there are cruisers out there that can make 29 knots, then a destroyer that can only go 28 knots are pretty useless.

[Valles]

Checking our local version of Janes doesn't show any such... whose are they?

[Tanthalas]

...

[Carthaginian]

Checking our local version of Janes doesn't show any such... whose are they?

P3D's new cruisers are planned for those kinds of speeds.
Since they'd be hitting the water while these DD's were less than 3 years old, it'd be a moot point to build them. I'll just have to wait till I have sufficient engine tech to get faster.

[Korpen]

Checking our local version of Janes doesn't show any such... whose are they?

P3D's new cruisers are planned for those kinds of speeds.
Since they'd be hitting the water while these DD's were less than 3 years old, it'd be a moot point to build them. I'll just have to wait till I have sufficient engine tech to get faster.

Everything depends on what you want them to do, if they are to support larger ships the speed of enemy cruisers are irrelevant.

[Carthaginian]

Checking our local version of Janes doesn't show any such... whose are they?

P3D's new cruisers are planned for those kinds of speeds.
Since they'd be hitting the water while these DD's were less than 3 years old, it'd be a moot point to build them. I'll just have to wait till I have sufficient engine tech to get faster.

Everything depends on what you want them to do, if they are to support larger ships the speed of enemy cruisers are irrelevant.

Incorrect.
The entire purpose of 'supporting larger ships' is to 1.) scouting/perimeter defense and 2.) torpedo attacks to harass the enemy battleline. A destroyer that is slower than expected opposition can do neither of those jobs effectively. At that point, the smaller ship ceases to be 'in support of' the larger ships and becomes 'supported by' the larger ships... more accurately, they become PROTECTED by those larger ships.

A smaller ship that cannot outrun it's projected hunter is a smaller ship that cannot survive long.

[maddox]

The job of the French DD's is to provide a torpedo screen for the big boys, and the big boys are ment to cover the DD's against larger attacks.

For me, Patrol is done with sloops, not DD's.

But that's the Nverse french view of things.

[Korpen]

Everything depends on what you want them to do, if they are to support larger ships the speed of enemy cruisers are irrelevant.
[/quote]

Incorrect.
The entire purpose of 'supporting larger ships' is to 1.) scouting/perimeter defense and 2.) torpedo attacks to harass the enemy battleline. A destroyer that is slower than expected opposition can do neither of those jobs effectively. At that point, the smaller ship ceases to be 'in support of' the larger ships and becomes 'supported by' the larger ships... more accurately, they become PROTECTED by those larger ships.

A smaller ship that cannot outrun it's projected hunter is a smaller ship that cannot survive long.
[/quote]
We got different modus operendi then. I see the small ships protecting and supporting the bigger ones against enemy small and medium one, and the big ones as supporting and protecting the small ones against enemy large and medium ships. In short, protecting each other.

I do not really see how a slight speed disadvantage would make either 1 nor 2 significantly harder, the destroyers is still capable to fires of some random torpedo spreads and for 1, well there should not be any need to run long distances.

[Carthaginian]

If a destroyer cannot gain advantageous firing position, torpedo attacks are ineffective and thus impossible. Without superior speed, they cannot gain better position for those attacks.

Without superior speed, the destroyer cannot escape a cruiser it encounters when scouting, without superior seakeeping it cannot maintain even a lower speed, and without superior armament it cannot fight a larger ship. Thus, it becomes less a 'scout' and more an information-seeking kamikaze.

I'd already planned on this destroyer being expendable IF CAUGHT... but not so much slower than a cruiser it was sure to be caught.