Habsburg Small Cruiser 1909

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I am not sure whether I had put it up or not. Am building three ATM. Range at 24 knots is 700 miles, moe or less from Pola to Otranto and back :)

Borys

SMS KuK Marie Theresie, Habsburgs Kleiner Kreuzer laid down 1909

Displacement:
   4 134 t light; 4 286 t standard; 4 736 t normal; 5 097 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   380,00 ft / 380,00 ft x 45,00 ft x 18,50 ft (normal load)
   115,82 m / 115,82 m x 13,72 m  x 5,64 m

Armament:
      6 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      2 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all aft
      4 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 627 lbs / 284 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 160
   8 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3,00" / 76 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   11,00 ft / 3,35 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 130% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,00" / 25 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 1,00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 4,00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 33 481 shp / 24 977 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 6 500nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 811 tons (60% coal)

Complement:
   285 - 371

Cost:
   £0,441 million / $1,764 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 84 tons, 1,8%
   Armour: 689 tons, 14,6%
      - Belts: 427 tons, 9,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 22 tons, 0,5%
      - Armour Deck: 215 tons, 4,5%
      - Conning Tower: 24 tons, 0,5%
   Machinery: 1 610 tons, 34,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 601 tons, 33,8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 602 tons, 12,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 3,2%
FC (FWIW on such a ship ...) - 100 tonnes
medium size marconi - 15 tonnes
torpedos - with one reload -  24 tonnes
reserve  - 10 tonnes

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3 635 lbs / 1 649 Kg = 33,7 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 0,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,18
   Metacentric height 2,0 ft / 0,6 m
   Roll period: 13,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,47
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,32

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0,524
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,44 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24,00 ft / 7,32 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   18,50 ft / 5,64 m
      - Mid (50%):      18,50 ft / 5,64 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   13,00 ft / 3,96 m (18,50 ft / 5,64 m before break)
      - Stern:      13,00 ft / 3,96 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,12 ft / 5,52 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 127,4%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109,9%
   Waterplane Area: 11 648 Square feet or 1 082 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 73 lbs/sq ft or 356 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,88
      - Longitudinal: 3,07
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Borys]

Ahoj!
The look like a Danae RN cruiser, but with pairs of guns. The amidships pair is between the TTs.
A cross between a Pillau with one pair of guns less, with the fushdeckness and tripod of the D class.

Borys

[The Rock Doctor]

The freeboard looks a bit odd - a 5.5' hull break?  But the rest of the design looks good.

I can't say I'll be installing 100 t fire control systems into a 4,000 t CL anytime soon.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I myself am torn on this - FC for 6 manually trained guns? Or spend that on mine carrying facilities?

Also - not to bother with 2x6"+4x4" 2500 tonne "Rapid Kreuzer" and instead build more of these?

Eek! - the 5'6" break is due to last minute sloppy editing - it was 6'6" and I cut a foot without checking how much it was originally ... groan back to the drawing board ...

Borys

[Borys]

Corrected flush deck version with paired guns

SMS KuK Marie Theresie, Habsburgs Kleiner Kreuzer laid down 1909

Displacement:
   4 055 t light; 4 209 t standard; 4 655 t normal; 5 012 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   380,00 ft / 380,00 ft x 45,00 ft x 18,50 ft (normal load)
   115,82 m / 115,82 m x 13,72 m  x 5,64 m

Armament:
      6 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      2 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all aft
      4 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 675 lbs / 306 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 160
   8 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3,00" / 76 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   11,00 ft / 3,35 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 130% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,00" / 25 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 1,00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 4,00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 32 973 shp / 24 598 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 6 500nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 803 tons (60% coal)

Complement:
   281 - 366

Cost:
   £0,435 million / $1,739 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 84 tons, 1,8%
   Armour: 687 tons, 14,8%
      - Belts: 427 tons, 9,2%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 22 tons, 0,5%
      - Armour Deck: 214 tons, 4,6%
      - Conning Tower: 24 tons, 0,5%
   Machinery: 1 585 tons, 34,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 549 tons, 33,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 600 tons, 12,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 3,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3 347 lbs / 1 518 Kg = 31,0 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 0,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,17
   Metacentric height 2,0 ft / 0,6 m
   Roll period: 13,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,46
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,27

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,515
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,44 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25,00 ft / 7,62 m
      - Forecastle (25%):   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,00 ft / 5,18 m (16,00 ft / 4,88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Stern:      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,58 ft / 5,36 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 127,9%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 99,3%
   Waterplane Area: 11 551 Square feet or 1 073 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 72 lbs/sq ft or 353 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,89
      - Longitudinal: 2,83
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Borys]

Ahoj!
A Danae class rip off.

Anton and Berta fore, Berta superfiring;
Caesar amidships, between funnels, can fire to both sides;
aft - Dora superfiring over Emil.

Borys

SMS KuK Marie Theresie, Habsburgs Kleiner Kreuzer laid down 1909

Displacement:
   4 001 t light; 4 140 t standard; 4 583 t normal; 4 936 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   380,00 ft / 380,00 ft x 45,00 ft x 18,50 ft (normal load)
   115,82 m / 115,82 m x 13,72 m  x 5,64 m

Armament:
      5 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread, 3 raised mounts
      2 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all aft
      4 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 527 lbs / 239 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 160
   8 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3,00" / 76 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   11,00 ft / 3,35 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 130% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,00" / 25 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 1,00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 4,00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 32 522 shp / 24 261 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 6 500nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 796 tons (60% coal)

Complement:
   278 - 362

Cost:
   £0,418 million / $1,674 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 71 tons, 1,5%
   Armour: 681 tons, 14,9%
      - Belts: 426 tons, 9,3%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 19 tons, 0,4%
      - Armour Deck: 212 tons, 4,6%
      - Conning Tower: 24 tons, 0,5%
   Machinery: 1 564 tons, 34,1%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 535 tons, 33,5%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 582 tons, 12,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 3,3%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3 365 lbs / 1 526 Kg = 31,2 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 0,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,16
   Metacentric height 2,0 ft / 0,6 m
   Roll period: 13,4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,42
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,24

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,507
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,44 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25,00 ft / 7,62 m
      - Forecastle (25%):   17,00 ft / 5,18 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,00 ft / 5,18 m (16,00 ft / 4,88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Stern:      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,30 ft / 5,27 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 126,1%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98,4%
   Waterplane Area: 11 466 Square feet or 1 065 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 73 lbs/sq ft or 355 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,90
      - Longitudinal: 2,73
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[The Rock Doctor]

I think fire control makes sense, at this point in time, for large caliber guns that shoot once a minute, or less, at slow-moving targets several thousand yards away.  You've got a solution from your last shot before you're ready to fire the next one, and the dispersion of your salvo is rather wide anyway.

Your typical cruiser will be shooting much more rapidly, with less dispersion, at much closer, faster targets - I don't know if director control could keep up with the pace of this kind of combat.  

On size - there can be different roles for different CLs.  For GC, I'm contemplating a few more of the ~3,400 t light CLs for flotilla leaders, while building ~3,800 - 4,000 t CLs for screening duties.

[Korpen]

Ahoj!
I myself am torn on this - FC for 6 manually trained guns? Or spend that on mine carrying facilities?

Also - not to bother with 2x6"+4x4" 2500 tonne "Rapid Kreuzer" and instead build more of these?

Eek! - the 5'6" break is due to last minute sloppy editing - it was 6'6" and I cut a foot without checking how much it was originally ... groan back to the drawing board ...

Borys

FC can be worth it in cruisers, but I do not think is worth it if the effective broadside is only three or four guns.

Mines are always usefull to have on a ship though. :)

[Borys]

Ahoj!
The six gun version has a four gun broadside at most angles.
The five gun version can fire, well, five.
Six gun version is better in ends on fire - 3, in special cases 4.

Borys

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Final Final version. Mixed centerline and wing guns.
Especially that I found a drawing for it. The never-never design I ripped off to begin with.
:)
Borys

http://xoomer.alice.it/bk/NWS/Imperial_German_Navy/Kreuzer_K/image-html/lottenkreuzer_K_Gro_5A15CB.html

SMS KuK Marie Theresie, Habsburgs Kleiner Kreuzer laid down 1909

Displacement:
   3 998 t light; 4 153 t standard; 4 599 t normal; 4 955 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   390,00 ft / 390,00 ft x 44,00 ft x 18,50 ft (normal load)
   118,87 m / 118,87 m x 13,41 m  x 5,64 m

Armament:
      3 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      2 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all forward
      2 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1908 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 527 lbs / 239 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   8 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3,00" / 76 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   11,60 ft / 3,54 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 126% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,00" / 25 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 1,00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 3,00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 31 954 shp / 23 838 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 6 500nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 802 tons (60% coal)

Complement:
   278 - 362

Cost:
   £0,415 million / $1,658 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 71 tons, 1,5%
   Armour: 693 tons, 15,1%
      - Belts: 451 tons, 9,8%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 11 tons, 0,2%
      - Armour Deck: 213 tons, 4,6%
      - Conning Tower: 18 tons, 0,4%
   Machinery: 1 536 tons, 33,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 548 tons, 33,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 601 tons, 13,1%
   Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 3,3%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3 536 lbs / 1 604 Kg = 32,7 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 0,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,19
   Metacentric height 2,0 ft / 0,6 m
   Roll period: 13,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,39
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,34

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,507
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,86 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,75 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25,00 ft / 7,62 m
      - Forecastle (25%):   17,00 ft / 5,18 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,00 ft / 5,18 m (16,00 ft / 4,88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Stern:      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,30 ft / 5,27 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 124,2%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98,9%
   Waterplane Area: 11 507 Square feet or 1 069 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 72 lbs/sq ft or 350 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,89
      - Longitudinal: 2,72
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Korpen]

Ahoj!
Final Final version. Mixed centerline and wing guns.

SMS KuK Marie Theresie, Habsburgs Kleiner Kreuzer laid down 1909

Decent little cruiser, apart from deing undergunned i think she is fine... ;)
Not really much to coment on, it is a light cruiser, nothing more, nothing less.
How many mines can she carry?

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Let me see ...
150 tonnes:
FC - 100 tonnes
w/t - 10 tonnes
TT with filling, no reloads - 16 tonnes (acording to the rules they weight 8, but I'm uncomfortable with that).

I am not sure if I should bother with 24 mines.
I should go back and do the misc.weight breakdowns for all my ships ...
Borys