Outiftting Ukraine's 1910 fleet

[Eugenius]

Class of four destroyers built for the Baltic...

Baltic DD, Ukrainian Destroyer laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   757 t light; 784 t standard; 889 t normal; 973 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   250.00 ft / 250.00 ft x 24.00 ft x 11.40 ft (normal load)
   76.20 m / 76.20 m x 7.32 m  x 3.47 m

Armament:
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 21.00lbs / 9.53kg shells, 1892 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      4 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1906 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 85 lbs / 38 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 13,595 shp / 10,142 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 1,600nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 190 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   80 - 105

Cost:
   £0.097 million / $0.387 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 7 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 462 tons, 52.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 278 tons, 31.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 133 tons, 14.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 10 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     281 lbs / 127 Kg = 21.8 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
   Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 10.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.455
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.42 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.81 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Stern:      11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.73 ft / 4.79 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 175.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 93.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 3,665 Square feet or 340 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 63 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 23 lbs/sq ft or 114 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.45
      - Longitudinal: 7.51
      - Overall: 0.60
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Eugenius]

A class of ten destroyers built for the enclosed waters of the Black Sea, optimized for speed.

Black DD, Ukrainian Destroyer laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   648 t light; 666 t standard; 756 t normal; 829 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   230.00 ft / 230.00 ft x 23.00 ft x 11.00 ft (normal load)
   70.10 m / 70.10 m x 7.01 m  x 3.35 m

Armament:
      2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1892 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1906 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 27 lbs / 12 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 20,547 shp / 15,328 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 1,500nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 163 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   71 - 93

Cost:
   £0.086 million / $0.344 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 432 tons, 57.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 193 tons, 25.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 108 tons, 14.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 2.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     177 lbs / 80 Kg = 13.8 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.43
   Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 9.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 42 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.06
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.70

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.455
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.17 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 73 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Mid (50 %):      11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Stern:      11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.48 ft / 3.50 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 190.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 77.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 3,231 Square feet or 300 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 36 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 118 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 3.26
      - Overall: 0.61
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[Eugenius]

Laid down in 1909, but not completed as of my entry into the game, a pair of cruisers for the Black Sea building at Nikolaev.

Black CL, Ukrainian Cruiser laid down 1909

Displacement:
   3,333 t light; 3,461 t standard; 3,784 t normal; 4,042 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   389.18 ft / 385.00 ft x 42.00 ft x 18.00 ft (normal load)
   118.62 m / 117.35 m x 12.80 m  x 5.49 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 423 lbs / 192 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   300.00 ft / 91.44 m   6.00 ft / 1.83 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   2.00" / 51 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   4.00 ft / 1.22 m
     Main Belt covers 120 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 23,716 shp / 17,692 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 581 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   240 - 313

Cost:
   £0.327 million / $1.308 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 53 tons, 1.4 %
   Armour: 471 tons, 12.5 %
      - Belts: 232 tons, 6.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 32 tons, 0.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 192 tons, 5.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 16 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,186 tons, 31.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,483 tons, 39.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 450 tons, 11.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 140 tons, 3.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3,600 lbs / 1,633 Kg = 68.3 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 13.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 99 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.97

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.455
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.17 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 11.25 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Mid (50 %):      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Stern:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.73 ft / 5.71 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 117.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 10,357 Square feet or 962 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 68 lbs/sq ft or 333 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.85
      - Longitudinal: 3.93
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Korpen]

Class of four destroyers built for the Baltic...

Baltic DD, Ukrainian Destroyer laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)
Displacement:
   757 t light; 784 t standard; 889 t normal; 973 t full load

It might sound petty, but she is seven ton overweight

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   250.00 ft / 250.00 ft x 24.00 ft x 11.40 ft (normal load)
   76.20 m / 76.20 m x 7.32 m  x 3.47 m
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[/quote]
All in all a decent ship.
Personally I would cut her range, 1600nm@14kts is quite much, and not really necessary for the Baltic. The saved weight could be used either for a bit more firepower, or a bit more speed. Some freeboard could be used for that as well.

But what is the thinking about the choices made in these ship?
I love to learn what it is you (and everyone else as well) seek with these design. Also it is much easier to give interesting feedback if we know what they are to be used for. :)

[The Rock Doctor]

The CL looks fairly handy.

The first destroyer has a glitch - the guidelines for destroyer construction are such that a cross sectional hull strength of less than 0.50 is Not Good.  You'll be risking moderator-inflicted problems with them.

[Eugenius]

It might sound petty, but she is seven ton overweight

Grrr...that she is...back to the drawing board for a few minor touch-ups.

All in all a decent ship.
Personally I would cut her range, 1600nm@14kts is quite much, and not really necessary for the Baltic. The saved weight could be used either for a bit more firepower, or a bit more speed. Some freeboard could be used for that as well.

But what is the thinking about the choices made in these ship?
I love to learn what it is you (and everyone else as well) seek with these design. Also it is much easier to give interesting feedback if we know what they are to be used for. :)

I'll cut range in favor of speed with reference to the Baltic destroyers, I think.

The thinking behind the Baltic destroyers is to favor firepower and torpedo armament over speed.

The Black Sea destroyers favor speed over firepower and torpedo armament, and have a bit more miscellaneous weight to drop a couple of mines or so overboard should they need to.

The Black Sea cruiser has quite a bit of miscellaneous weight in order to toss sixty mines out the back, plus better firepower and torpedo armament in exchange for a "meh" speed.

[Eugenius]

The CL looks fairly handy.

The first destroyer has a glitch - the guidelines for destroyer construction are such that a cross sectional hull strength of less than 0.50 is Not Good.  You'll be risking moderator-inflicted problems with them.

Oops!  Gotta fix that then.

[Eugenius]

Baltic DD 1.01:

Baltic DD, Ukrainian Destroyer laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   710 t light; 745 t standard; 798 t normal; 841 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   230.00 ft / 230.00 ft x 24.00 ft x 11.00 ft (normal load)
   70.10 m / 70.10 m x 7.32 m  x 3.35 m

Armament:
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 21.00lbs / 9.53kg shells, 1892 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1906 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 169 lbs / 77 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 12,002 shp / 8,954 Kw = 26.25 kts
   Range 1,000nm at 13.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 96 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   74 - 97

Cost:
   £0.091 million / $0.362 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 13 tons, 1.6 %
   Armour: 12 tons, 1.6 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 12 tons, 1.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 392 tons, 49.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 284 tons, 35.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 88 tons, 11.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 8 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     283 lbs / 128 Kg = 22.0 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.34
   Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 10.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.86

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.460
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.58 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.17 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 28
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (30 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Stern:      13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.10 ft / 4.60 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 173.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 71.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 3,389 Square feet or 315 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 60 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 133 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.54
      - Longitudinal: 8.93
      - Overall: 0.72
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Eugenius]

Reasoning for the new DD's armament, if perhaps faulty, is a short, vicious engagement with other light ships, it could actually be a benefit for her to have guns on both sides of the ship.  ;)

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Firing to both sides - this was the reason for the arrangment of the UK built Almirante Lunch Chlean destroyes. Three pairs of 4 inchers, the fore and aft pair being crossdecking. The UK took over 4 ship of this class, and hated the arangment :), puting singles fore and aft.

These 6x4" MONSTERS had a standard displacement of 1430 tonnes, normal of 1610, and full load of 1800. Speed - 31knots.

Until the Kievite ships run into enemy ships with 3 or 4 guns of 4" calibre, their armament is good.

Then they'll be rearmed with 2-3 guns of 10cm calibe (Kiev seems to use round(ish) centimetres, I've noticed).
Borys

[Korpen]

Until the Kievite ships run into enemy ships with 3 or 4 guns of 4" calibre, their armament is good.

Unfourtanely that includes pretty much all ships in this class built in the last five years, with the possible exception of UNK and Gran Colombia.
3-4 10-10,5cm guns seems to be the standard for DDs in this world.

[The Rock Doctor]

...and the odds of Ukrainian and Colombian destroyers having a smash-up is rather low.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Well, I am mass buliding these boats:
GTB 1909, Oesterreich-Ungarn Grossetorpedoboot laid down 1909 - 5 laid down in January 1909

Displacement:
   403 t light; 417 t standard; 450 t normal; 477 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   225,00 ft / 225,00 ft x 20,00 ft x 7,00 ft (normal load)
   68,58 m / 68,58 m x 6,10 m  x 2,13 m

Armament:
      2 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm guns in single mounts, 3,00lbs / 1,36kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      2 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 33 lbs / 15 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   4 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 11 091 shp / 8 274 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 1 500nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 60 tons

Complement:
   48 - 63

Cost:
   £0,051 million / $0,204 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 4 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 239 tons, 53,1%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 150 tons, 33,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 47 tons, 10,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 10 tons, 2,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     143 lbs / 65 Kg = 10,6 x 3,0 " / 76 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,24
   Metacentric height 0,7 ft / 0,2 m
   Roll period: 10,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,16
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,18

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,500
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11,25 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15,00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 70 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16,50 ft / 5,03 m
      - Forecastle (10%):   16,50 ft / 5,03 m
      - Mid (15%):      16,50 ft / 5,03 m (10,50 ft / 3,20 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   10,50 ft / 3,20 m
      - Stern:      10,50 ft / 3,20 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,40 ft / 3,47 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 181,4%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 71,3%
   Waterplane Area: 2 998 Square feet or 279 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 43%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 20 lbs/sq ft or 98 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 3,92
      - Overall: 0,61
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped