Maori Fleet

[Korpen]

They do if they want to survive the Maori's southern territorial waters - which they'd need to. That's basically much of the point, in fact - not to break in half if the Latitude South 60 winter decides to sneeze on them wrong.

Two things: first, Springsharp;s  seakeeping rating is first relative the size and speed of the ship, and it does not tell how good a ship is at surviving bad weather.

Second: What the hell do you have down there that needs main fleet units to defend? If the weather is atrocious there will be no real civilian shipping, and an enemy would be just as badly affected, if not more so as it it far from home. For just showing the flag a dedicated cutter seems better.

The rules account for destroyers considerably larger than this design. Her guns are an attempt to force a little respect, not something actually involved in her mission. Worthwhile armor is impossible on this tonnage. Improved torpedoes are an absolute certainty by the time she'd enter service. I thought a two-deck torpedo armament would be interesting. She's considerably faster than any battle line in the world. Scouting is what airships are for.

My comment about torpedoes goes for all of the tech levels (at least until the 1913 or 1918 level).
That she is somewhat faster then a battle line is irrelevant, the shells from that line are faster still. She do not have the size or the armour needed to slowly close against an enemy that is shooting back, or have screening units of their own. Nor does she have the speed to close in any other way then slowly. Finally the two 15cm guns that are her only real armament is really not enough to give respect, they have to low ROF in this situation to cause fear in enemy screening TBs and cruisers, and they are too few for efficiency at longer ranges.

Airships as scouts ahev the drawback that they are very weather dependent.

ETA: Really what I'd like to do would be to operate MTBs off of some kind of mothership, but if destroyers are tricky with SS then planing boats or hydrofoils are totally impossible.

That is not really a strange concept, i know both Italian and Austrian battleships at some time during the 1800s carried TBs aboard. I would recomend just finding som historic design and copy that. But do not be suprised by the fact that MTBs was slower then real TBs.

[Ithekro]

These are more reconstructions than rebuilds.

[P3D]

TB motherships? There is one around.

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=337.0

[Valles]

Two things: first, Springsharp;s  seakeeping rating is first relative the size and speed of the ship, and it does not tell how good a ship is at surviving bad weather.

Yes, but the mods have a standing threat to enforce 'storm damage' on destroyer class ships.

Second: What the hell do you have down there that needs main fleet units to defend?

My biggest harbor! This is like asking why an Icelandic fleet would need to cope with the North Atlantic...

My comment about torpedoes goes for all of the tech levels (at least until the 1913 or 1918 level).
That she is somewhat faster then a battle line is irrelevant, the shells from that line are faster still. She do not have the size or the armour needed to slowly close against an enemy that is shooting back, or have screening units of their own. Nor does she have the speed to close in any other way then slowly. Finally the two 15cm guns that are her only real armament is really not enough to give respect, they have to low ROF in this situation to cause fear in enemy screening TBs and cruisers, and they are too few for efficiency at longer ranges.

I sincerely doubt that an enemy capital ship commander would agree with your assessment of what her main armament is.

Besides, if she's so bad, show me something better.

Airships as scouts have the drawback that they are very weather dependent.

And how likely is it that an enemy is going to decide to pick a fight mid-storm?

That is not really a strange concept, i know both Italian and Austrian battleships at some time during the 1800s carried TBs aboard. I would recomend just finding som historic design and copy that. But do not be suprised by the fact that MTBs was slower then real TBs.

...weren't you just complaining about how anything less than thirty knots was far too slow? ^_^

Anyway, that's the reason I mentioned planing and hydrofoils. The latter, according to my research, were doing forty knots as civilian prototypes right around our 'current day'.

[Tanthalas]

we are unfortunatly (in my opinion anyway) in the era of Turbina, and a few other very fast Civilian types.  the problem arises in that they are simply imposible to sim. 

[Korpen]

My biggest harbor! This is like asking why an Icelandic fleet would need to cope with the North Atlantic...

First, Iceland does not have a navy.... :P

Ok, took for granted that the northern half was the more populous one as that one does not have sub-antarctic climate.

I sincerely doubt that an enemy capital ship commander would agree with your assessment of what her main armament is.

12 Torpedoes sound very scary until you realise that you have to close to at most 2000m if you want to hit anything...
And until she is that close, her effective firepower is no better then ships half her size.

Besides, if she's so bad, show me something better.

Impossible until you explain what you want. Is it a torpedo attack craft you want, or is it a general patrol ship you are seeking?
At the moment she is combining the speed of a patrol ship with the (lack of) armament of an attack craft.

And how likely is it that an enemy is going to decide to pick a fight mid-storm?

Storms are no the only conditions, fog, strong rain or snow can all ground an airship.

Anyway, that's the reason I mentioned planing and hydrofoils. The latter, according to my research, were doing forty knots as civilian prototypes right around our 'current day'.

As long as you are running on a pond yes, but were you not talking about the southern ocean?...

[Ithekro]

looking at the large destroyer and comments I'd say she is a tiny unprotected cruiser or a torpedo sloop.  The mentionof moderators standing orders for (storm accidents to happen to destroyers" was for ships with destroyer like hulls (Cross-sectional of 0.50)  Your ship's Cross-sectional is 0.88 which is low but fuctional.

This ship seems to fit the roll of a destroyer leader in size, though not speed.  However since Maoria (as far as I can remember) has no destroyers, this is about their lightest torpedo delivery vessel that can actively engage torpedo boats.  (A destroyer)  It may not be the best choice, or a good choice, but that would be best deturmined by war games or actual combat.

[Valles]

The Maori have no torpedo craft nor will for several years. TA/1910 is one of a series of paper studies done as a way of playing with the possibilities of torpedo warfare... in other words, she serves as one data point in the simulated spreadsheet of their forming torpedo doctrine.

Frex... take this pure parasite craft, a sort of trimaran quasi-Turbinia. I figure her actual speed should be 33 knots or so.

TB/1910, Maoria Motor Torpedo Boat laid down 1910 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   65 t light; 67 t standard; 69 t normal; 69 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   104.99 ft / 104.99 ft x 9.84 ft x 4.92 ft (normal load)
   32.00 m / 32.00 m x 3.00 m  x 1.50 m

Armament:
      1 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
      6 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns (2x3 guns), 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1910 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 13 lbs / 6 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 15.7" / 400 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 1 shaft, 2,768 shp / 2,065 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 200nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 tons
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   11 - 15

Cost:
   £0.009 million / $0.035 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 2.4 %
   Machinery: 37 tons, 53.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 22 tons, 31.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4 tons, 5.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 5 tons, 7.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3 lbs / 2 Kg = 0.3 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 0.73
   Metacentric height 0.1 ft / 0.0 m
   Roll period: 15.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 36 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.86
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.51

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.472
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.67 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 10.25 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 78 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      9.84 ft / 3.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   6.56 ft / 2.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      6.56 ft / 2.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   6.56 ft / 2.00 m
      - Stern:      6.56 ft / 2.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   6.82 ft / 2.08 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 199.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): -36.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 642 Square feet or 60 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 29 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 10 lbs/sq ft or 47 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.36
      - Longitudinal: 8.84
      - Overall: 0.50
   Caution: Poor stability - excessive risk of capsizing
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

Outriggers, 0.5t each
Torpedoes*4, 1t each

Or perhaps this one?

TC/1910, Maoria 2nd Rate laid down 1910 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   4,465 t light; 4,605 t standard; 5,128 t normal; 5,546 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   366.33 ft / 360.89 ft x 39.37 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
   111.66 m / 110.00 m x 12.00 m  x 7.00 m

Armament:
      4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (1x16 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mount
     on side amidships
   Weight of broadside 618 lbs / 280 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   12 - 15.7" / 400 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.91" / 150 mm   216.54 ft / 66.00 m   7.51 ft / 2.29 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   144.32 ft / 43.99 m   7.51 ft / 2.29 m
   Upper:   1.97" / 50 mm   216.54 ft / 66.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 3 shafts, 56,844 shp / 42,406 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 940 tons

Complement:
   302 - 393

Cost:
   £0.538 million / $2.154 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 77 tons, 1.5 %
   Armour: 647 tons, 12.6 %
      - Belts: 634 tons, 12.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 13 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 2,267 tons, 44.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,450 tons, 28.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 663 tons, 12.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 24 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     2,157 lbs / 979 Kg = 21.0 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 13.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.29
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.87

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.17 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1.97 ft / 0.60 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m (13.12 ft / 4.00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Stern:      13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 154.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 69.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 9,916 Square feet or 921 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 70 lbs/sq ft or 340 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 3.33
      - Overall: 1.03
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[Valles]

A revised proposal for the updated Koikois, leaving the turrets alone and using an external bulge instead of an internal TDS.

Koikoi, Maoria Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   28,553 t light; 30,113 t standard; 32,733 t normal; 34,830 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   708.47 ft / 705.38 ft x 98.43 ft (Bulges 111.55 ft) x 22.97 ft (normal load)
   215.94 m / 215.00 m x 30.00 m (Bulges 34.00 m)  x 7.00 m

Armament:
      4 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns (2x2 guns), 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      6 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns in single mounts, 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 10,092 lbs / 4,578 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   423.23 ft / 129.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:   5.91" / 150 mm   282.12 ft / 85.99 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   705.38 ft / 215.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1.57" / 40 mm   423.23 ft / 129.00 m   22.18 ft / 6.76 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      10.8" / 275 mm
   2nd:   11.8" / 300 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      10.8" / 275 mm
   3rd:   5.91" / 150 mm         -               -
   4th:   2.36" / 60 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 5.51" / 140 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, reciprocating cruising steam engines plus steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 21,460 ihp / 16,009 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4,717 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   1,216 - 1,581

Cost:
   £2.218 million / $8.870 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,261 tons, 3.9 %
   Armour: 13,631 tons, 41.6 %
      - Belts: 4,709 tons, 14.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 547 tons, 1.7 %
      - Armament: 2,771 tons, 8.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 5,344 tons, 16.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 260 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 1,132 tons, 3.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,003 tons, 36.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,180 tons, 12.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 525 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     79,986 lbs / 36,281 Kg = 97.1 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 17.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
   Metacentric height 7.6 ft / 2.3 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.26
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.44

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.634
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.32 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 30 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1.54 ft / 0.47 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   29.53 ft / 9.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   29.53 ft / 9.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m before break)
      - Stern:      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   23.62 ft / 7.20 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 55.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 161.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 52,408 Square feet or 4,869 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 123 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 165 lbs/sq ft or 805 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.12
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 tons assorted unplanned weights
25 tons long-range radio installation
250 tons fire control system and paraphenalia

Class of three:
Koikoi
Ririate
Whakakaha

[Ithekro]

Is it early to be needed bulges on warships..especially four year old warships (which would not have been in service for much more than a year as it would take at least 38 months to complete, plus nearly a half year shake down cruise)?

[Valles]

Is it early to be needed bulges on warships... especially four year old warships (which would not have been in service for much more than a year as it would take at least 38 months to complete, plus nearly a half year shake down cruise)?

Considering that the tech rules kept me from being able to include torpedo protection in them from the ground up, no, I don't really think so. Also, this would be a couple of years in the future, still, for what little that's worth.

[Ithekro]

I will note that torpedos are still not all that effective in this time period.  Sure there are exception and anomolies that happened in the last war, but for the most part, a torpedo has in general a 10% chance to hit...usually worse.  This is after getting into range and getting through any larger gunfire and the quickfire/anti-torpedo boat guns.  Range for torpedo launching is short range 20hm or less for the better torpedoes (some heavy models are said to be able to run up to 40hm, but I don't think any country in Navalism has them), and 10hm for the lighter torpedoes than most of the older torpedo boats are armed with.  Also most torpedo boats and destroyers are short range craft.  This means defensive for the most part.  Swiss and Japanese forces had difficulty getting there torpedo forces out to some places due to range restrictions or problems maintaining the vessels on station for any given length of time.

(Below water torpedoe tubes...even those from submarines, have a worse chance to hit due to limited firing arcs)

[Valles]

Maybe. Maybe. But recall that those three were built using 1902-grade engines. They need replacing at some point, anyway - so, might as well fix another weakness while they're in.

[Tanthalas]

as long as you arnt at war with the MK you dont have to wory about any 700 torpedo launches, ok so I can do 450 but thats only if I had the whole fleet together (Note odds of that ever hapening are slim to none and slim already left town)  in any case my "Torpedo Boats" are more like destroyers that had a few torpedo tubes bolted to their decks as an afterthought.

[P3D]

Below water/not trainable torpedo tubes works almost as fine as trainable one. Torpedoes are equipped with a gyroscope, so they can be set to take a course, that is e.g. 60o from the launching direction.

I think installing a torpedo bulkhead might be possible - the engine volume being 1/3rd it was, but nevertheless expensive.