Less is More, and sometimes, More is More

[Carthaginian]

Since their first patrol sloops- instantly dubbed Ronsons by the Republic of Orange- are decidedly sub-standard, the CSN has already gone about designing an improved design to begin production in 1910. It takes the best features of the S-01 design and adds more capability, size, and durability. The S-21 will carry a Marconi, half a platoon of MP's for customs and anti-piracy duty, two motor launches to move them in, and even has room for 18 tons cargo.



S-21, Confederate States of America Sloop laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   500 t light; 520 t standard; 644 t normal; 743 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   230.00 ft / 215.00 ft x 23.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
   70.10 m / 65.53 m x 7.01 m  x 3.05 m

Armament:
      2 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 21.44lbs / 9.73kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1910 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.05lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1910 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 47 lbs / 21 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   2 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   215.00 ft / 65.53 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 0.50" / 13 mm, Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 1,500 ihp / 1,119 Kw = 16.12 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 11.90 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 223 tons

Complement:
   63 - 83

Cost:
   £0.037 million / $0.149 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 6 tons, 0.9 %
   Armour: 112 tons, 17.3 %
      - Belts: 80 tons, 12.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 2 tons, 0.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 28 tons, 4.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 105 tons, 16.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 230 tons, 35.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 144 tons, 22.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 48 tons, 7.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     984 lbs / 446 Kg = 45.9 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
   Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 11.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.14
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.456
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.35 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14.66 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.75 degrees
   Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Mid (35 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m (8.00 ft / 2.44 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
      - Stern:      8.00 ft / 2.44 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.24 ft / 3.42 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 3,023 Square feet or 281 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 155 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 157 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.84
      - Longitudinal: 4.59
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

*NOTE: This ship is equipped with a Marconi (10 tons)*
*NOTE: This ship is equipped with 4 torpedo reloads (4 tons)*
*NOTE: This ship is equipped with quarters for 18 MP's (10 tons)*
*NOTE: This ship is equipped with 2 ICE-powered launches (4 tons)*
*NOTE: This ship is equipped with 1000 gallons of ethanol fuel (3 tons)*
*NOTE: This ship is equipped with space for palatized cargo (18 tons)*

[Sachmle]

I assume your intended function is coastal patrol, as a 16kt ship won't be catching any "pirate" vessels anytime soon and w/ that low cross-sectional strengh rough weather won't be kind to her. Kinda looks like a slow DD.

[Korpen]

A very sensible vessel, as she removing the strain of regular patrols from the TB force.
16kts is fast enough to catch anything but a liner or a purpose build warship.
An ide might to make sure to fit minerails to the ships as well, to be used as auxilliary minelayers.

Most "real" pirates in this era were found in Asia and they used djonks.

[The Rock Doctor]

I like, mostly, but think some of the miscellaneous weight requirements are being under-estimated.

For example, SS suggest setting aside 2 t per passenger on a troop ship, where you set aside less than 1 t per MP.  This implies very crowded and unpleasant living conditions for them.

I'd also suggest the light armament is excessive.  Do you really need a dozen machine guns of different calibres?

[Carthaginian]

I like, mostly, but think some of the miscellaneous weight requirements are being under-estimated.

For example, SS suggest setting aside 2 t per passenger on a troop ship, where you set aside less than 1 t per MP.  This implies very crowded and unpleasant living conditions for them.

I could raise it to 1t each... but I WANTED to convey 'cramped' conditions, Rock... just a sea chest and a bunk. After all, would there really be any more room than that on this ship? I figured 200 pounds of gear, 100 pounds of bunk and 200 pounds of man would just about cover it. I mean, really, did sailors of this time period really have much more of an allotment than that? I know that 4 uniforms and all my field gear runs right at 150 pounds, including an extra set of boots. Add 20 pounds for my M249, and 30 for ammo (600 rounds) and you're right at the 500 pounds I set aside... counting me, and I'm a good 60-80 pounds heavier than the average man was at this time (220 pounds) and my gear is heavier than theirs as well... very few man-portable, belt-fed weapons in that day.

I'd also suggest the light armament is excessive.  Do you really need a dozen machine guns of different calibres?

Well, honestly, I figured that the most that this ship will really only go up against light ships. A 1" machine gun would be more than enough to make most pirates (light modified merchants) have a really bad day, and would cut most smugglers craft (small wooden boats in this era) to ribbons. Also, they would be able to do damage to submarines at this time as well. I though them fairly adequate to the task.

I've given some consideration to changing the dual 1" machine guns to 57mm/6-pounders.
Perhaps that is something that I should look into before putting her into production.

A very sensible vessel, as she removing the strain of regular patrols from the TB force.
16kts is fast enough to catch anything but a liner or a purpose build warship.
An ide might to make sure to fit minerails to the ships as well, to be used as auxilliary minelayers.

Most "real" pirates in this era were found in Asia and they used djonks.

The minelayer role has occurred to me, Korpen, but were I to do that, I'd make a specialized version with it's own SS readout, removing the aft 3.5" QF to make room for the rails and simplifying the laying process by simply having the mines drop off the stern. Also, at 1t per mine, I'd only be getting about 20 mines per ship.

There are pirates in the Gulf... 'Robin Hood' type Socialist pirates that rob from the rich and give to the DRM's 'Domino Effect' fund. I've only written up one engagement, but there are actually many per year in the waters off the DRM. Nothing like in the Java Sea or anything... but still enough to require some protection.

I assume your intended function is coastal patrol, as a 16kt ship won't be catching any "pirate" vessels anytime soon and w/ that low cross-sectional strengh rough weather won't be kind to her. Kinda looks like a slow DD.

'Pirates' in this area like tramp steamers... and even shrimp boats.
The former have plenty of cargo space and can mount small naval canon easily, and the latter very common and unobtrusive. and can hide a relatively large amount of cargo in their small hulls.
Neither, however, is going to break much over 12 knots in this time period. 16 knots is a speedboat compared to them. The cross-sectional strength is apparently plenty tough; I 'borrowed' the basic hull dimensions from an OTL Japanese patrol craft, the Kaibokan sub hunter. She's about 2m longer- but also about 1m narrower in beam- than the Kaibokan D... a ship that gave US and RN sub skippers fits all over the Pacific. From the rather prolific journeys that this class made through open waters as convoy escorts (through rather poor conditions occasionally) I'd say that the hull strength is sufficient.

[The Rock Doctor]

but I WANTED to convey 'cramped' conditions, Rock

Mission accompilshed, then. 

I agree that the 25mm will be effective in the roles you described - just wasn't sure you needed so many.  I guess I'll have a sense of deck space when I'm at home and can see your pic; currently, I'm elsewhere.

I agree, it'd be a useful basis for a defensive minelayer.  With some or all of the armor omitted, you'd get a useful load of mines on her.

I've alluded to the DRM pirate issue at least once in GC news - probably 1906, mind you - but haven't done anything else with it, as I didn't want to hijack your storyline.

[Carthaginian]

I agree that the 25mm will be effective in the roles you described - just wasn't sure you needed so many.  I guess I'll have a sense of deck space when I'm at home and can see your pic; currently, I'm elsewhere.

Well, a twin 1" mount is standard in the CSA... singles will come in more as they begin to assume AA duties, but against ships it's thought that at least 2 are needed. There are two mounts per side, and everything fits quite nicely. I even had good space for the 25' launches.

I agree, it'd be a useful basis for a defensive minelayer.  With some or all of the armor omitted, you'd get a useful load of mines on her.

Well, I don't believe in mines- structure of the Gulf, currents involved, etc.
They'd break loose and be more of a hazard to me than to any potential enemies.
Still, ya'll are very right, and a modified plan for such might be developed, at least on paper.

I've alluded to the DRM pirate issue at least once in GC news - probably 1906, mind you - but haven't done anything else with it, as I didn't want to hijack your storyline.

Feel free to do so as often as you'd like.
Might be a good way to get out little patrol craft into stories more often.

[Sachmle]

It appears my preconception on "pirate" vessels was incorrect. I assumed that they use small fast vessels en mass, or a converted freighter which I figured for at least 18kts. If they are in vessels like you described then this is more than adaquate and should be very effective.  Good ship.

[Korpen]

Well, I don't believe in mines- structure of the Gulf, currents involved, etc.
They'd break loose and be more of a hazard to me than to any potential enemies.
Still, ya'll are very right, and a modified plan for such might be developed, at least on paper.

That is a reason to deploy mines designed for the purpose (smaller bodies, larger anchors), not a reason to dismiss the entire weapon system.  ;)

The minelayer role has occurred to me, Korpen, but were I to do that, I'd make a specialized version with it's own SS readout, removing the aft 3.5" QF to make room for the rails and simplifying the laying process by simply having the mines drop off the stern. Also, at 1t per mine, I'd only be getting about 20 mines per ship.

A very nice compromise would be to put the gun on a raised platform that allows the mine rails to pass beneath it. I have seen that arrangement on some cold war Finnish minelayers. And for short runs I think it would be possible to cram more mines aboard, and maybe not take full fuel tanks.

[Carthaginian]

Well, I don't believe in mines- structure of the Gulf, currents involved, etc.
They'd break loose and be more of a hazard to me than to any potential enemies.
Still, ya'll are very right, and a modified plan for such might be developed, at least on paper.

That is a reason to deploy mines designed for the purpose (smaller bodies, larger anchors), not a reason to dismiss the entire weapon system.  ;)

Cables break, hooks corrode, anchors come loose and drag.
It's the flow of the Gulf Stream itself that makes mines dangerous in the Gulf of Mexico. It would simply sweep any mine that DID pop loose along my coast instead of away from it. I still think that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.

[Korpen]

Well, I don't believe in mines- structure of the Gulf, currents involved, etc.
They'd break loose and be more of a hazard to me than to any potential enemies.
Still, ya'll are very right, and a modified plan for such might be developed, at least on paper.

That is a reason to deploy mines designed for the purpose (smaller bodies, larger anchors), not a reason to dismiss the entire weapon system.  ;)

Cables break, hooks corrode, anchors come loose and drag.
It's the flow of the Gulf Stream itself that makes mines dangerous in the Gulf of Mexico. It would simply sweep any mine that DID pop loose along my coast instead of away from it. I still think that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.

I would guess that there are plenty of places worth defending that is not in areas of strong currents.
But how deep is the water, one alternative could be to go for bottom mines, possible with a floater that electrically trigger the warhead at the seafloor.
I suspect that calling the unreliable would be an understatement, but at least they are quite safe from the worries you have about mines :)

[Ithekro]

Rohan might need to return to sloop production one of these days.  But for now it will be building new destroyers, then maybe if there is production to spare, the unarmored cruisers will return to life.

[Carthaginian]

Rohan might need to return to sloop production one of these days.  But for now it will be building new destroyers, then maybe if there is production to spare, the unarmored cruisers will return to life.

For a cheap, plentiful way to patrol your coastline during peacetime, nothing can beat a merchant-standard patrol craft. You can build a bunch, and stand to loose them if they are lost.
Of course, they aren't combat ships... but I have plenty of destroyers to send into combat. These guys are just there to make sure that no one tries to shrimp out of season... or out of their territorial waters. ;)

[Carthaginian]

The cruiser that Teddy was recently examining. She's fast enough to not be caught (even by a BC), able to beat most cruisers in a gun duel, and long-ranged enough to not be a Confederate ship at all. She's designed to be the centerpiece of a Pacific cruiser group.  I'll do a drawing if she's liked.

Gumyas, Confederate States of America Armored Cruiser laid down 1909

Displacement:
   13,900 t light; 14,563 t standard; 16,464 t normal; 17,985 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   620.00 ft / 600.00 ft x 82.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
   188.98 m / 182.88 m x 24.99 m  x 7.92 m

Armament:
      8 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (4x2 guns), 400.00lbs / 181.44kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      2 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 3,850 lbs / 1,746 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   400.00 ft / 121.92 m   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
   Ends:   3.00" / 76 mm   200.00 ft / 60.96 m   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   200.00 ft / 60.96 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   8.00" / 203 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      3.00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,808 Kw = 25.60 kts
   Range 10,250nm at 12.11 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,422 tons

Complement:
   726 - 944

Cost:
   £1.181 million / $4.724 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 463 tons, 2.8 %
   Armour: 5,309 tons, 32.2 %
      - Belts: 3,015 tons, 18.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,021 tons, 6.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,162 tons, 7.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 112 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 2,182 tons, 13.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,646 tons, 34.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,564 tons, 15.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     24,079 lbs / 10,922 Kg = 61.8 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 3.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
   Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 15.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.25
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.28

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.450
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.32 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.50 degrees
   Stern overhang: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Mid (50 %):      19.00 ft / 5.79 m (11.00 ft / 3.35 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Stern:      11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.15 ft / 4.92 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 67.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 31,395 Square feet or 2,917 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 120 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 127 lbs/sq ft or 621 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.22
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Ithekro]

Basically a larger, better version of the Combat Cruiser Valandil.  And yes she will be able to outrun Rohan's Battlecruisers and even Valandil.