AC Question

[Korpen]

Ahoj!
Funny about the turret arrangement:)
I imagined the 12 gun version like Blucher,and the 8 gun as 2x2, 4x1 (like the British ACs, or Radetzky).

194 or 234 - both are too slow to be useful against TBs. I think the 140mm is perfect for this job. More agile than the 6 incher, yet a much heavier hitter than the 4 inchers.
But maybe some dozen 4 inchers would suffice ...
Borys

Or buy som lovely 12cm guns!  ;D
That calibre combines a usefull weight of shell with good ROF.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Your post did NOT come as a surprise :)

I think the 12cm is too large for destroyer type vessels, and too small for cruiser and larger vessels. On a larger cruiser the 14cm will fire about as as fast, yet over 150% shell weight of the 12cm weapon (c.35kg versus c.20kg).

Borys

[Korpen]

Ahoj!
Your post did NOT come as a surprise :)

I think the 12cm is too large for destroyer type vessels, and too small for cruiser and larger vessels. On a larger cruiser the 14cm will fire about as as fast, yet over 150% shell weight of the 12cm weapon (c.35kg versus c.20kg).

Borys

But the 14cm gun also weight 60% more, so instead of 10 14cm guns the ship could have 16 12cm guns.
And when shooting up TB, more guns are a good thing, and at the same time the 12cm gun got enogh punch to be usefull against small cruisers, unlike a 10cm gun.

Also most guns around 14cm had a rof about the same as a 15cm gun (~6 RPM), compred to the ~10 RPM of a 12cm gun (unless it is bagloading, then the ROF is about equal).

[Sachmle]

As I said, I'm not quite up to speed on the little things (the 48,000 hp limit and shell weight numbers) so here is a redraft

1909 AC, Gran Columbia Armoured Cruiser laid down 1909

Displacement:
   11,242 t light; 11,653 t standard; 12,750 t normal; 13,628 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (504.27 ft / 492.13 ft) x 73.82 ft x (25.26 / 26.55 ft)
   (153.70 m / 150.00 m) x 22.50 m  x (7.70 / 8.09 m)

Armament:
      12 - 7.64" / 194 mm 45.0 cal guns - 198.42lbs / 90.00kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1909 Model
     6 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 5.51" / 140 mm 45.0 cal guns - 83.78lbs / 38.00kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1909 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      10 - 3.94" / 100.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 30.86lbs / 14.00kg shells, 100 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1909 Model
     10 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      10 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 4.41lbs / 2.00kg shells, 100 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model
     10 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      10 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 3,404 lbs / 1,544 kg
      4 - 1.8" / 46 mm, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m torpedoes - 0.085 t each, 0.338 t total
   In 2 sets of submerged bow & stern tubes
      4 - 1.8" / 46 mm, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m torpedoes - 0.085 t each, 0.338 t total
   In 2 sets of below water reloads

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.87" / 200 mm   311.68 ft / 95.00 m   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
   Ends:   2.76" / 70 mm   180.45 ft / 55.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   311.68 ft / 95.00 m   6.56 ft / 2.00 m
     Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.87" / 200 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      7.87" / 200 mm
   2nd:   7.87" / 200 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      7.87" / 200 mm
   3rd:   3.94" / 100 mm   0.39" / 10 mm      0.39" / 10 mm
   4th:   1.18" / 30 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks: 1.57" / 40 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 0.00" / 0 mm  Quarter deck: 0.79" / 20 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 7.87" / 200 mm,  Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,808 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 7,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,975 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   599 - 779

Cost:
   £1.031 million / $4.125 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 771 tons, 6.0 %
      - Guns: 770 tons, 6.0 %
      - Torpedoes: 1 tons, 0.0 %
   Armour: 4,320 tons, 33.9 %
      - Belts: 2,617 tons, 20.5 %
      - Armament: 1,067 tons, 8.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 543 tons, 4.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 93 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 2,400 tons, 18.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,752 tons, 29.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,508 tons, 11.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15,339 lbs / 6,957 Kg = 68.9 x 7.6 " / 194 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
   Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 15.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.486 / 0.495
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.67 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   30.00 %,  26.00 ft / 7.92 m,  26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Aft deck:   23.00 %,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarter deck:   17.00 %,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:      19.00 ft / 5.79 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 121.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 23,906 Square feet or 2,221 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 115 lbs/sq ft or 559 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.91
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

I went with the longer hull w/ shallower draught. Waddaya think?

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Quite nice.

1 - the belts are too high; The assumption is that half the Main Belt goes under the WL. Here the Upper Belt pushes some 3/4ths of it beneath it. Maybe cut them down to 16+8? That will nicely cover the whole side above the waterline, up to the weather deck.

2 - I'm not sure if 8 inch casemate covers are a good idea. Casematte guns usually were hand operated - how easy such a slab of metal is to move about, I dunno.

3 - the 2x7,6" turrets should be"majority aft"

4 - the 3-pounders - shouldn't they be on the sides?

5 - you need Miscalenous weight - it is a by-rule we use for torpedo tubes, topredos, radio, various fancy gimmicks you might think off; I suggest 10 or 25 tonnes for a medium or large w/t set, 20 tonnes for torpedo apparatus and reloads - at least 50-60 tonnes in total

6 - excelent as a cruiser

7 - I like the price, only 10$ (we take the Pounds and multiply by ten), which is 40% of the battleships which are being lately

8 - how would it look like with 4x2x9,2"? That could allow for weather deck mounted 5,5" caseattes.

9 - you seem to be using SS3. We are sticking to SS2.1, but I suppose we will move on when the bugs are ironed out.

10 - ammunition for the main guns is on the low side. I would not mind this amount in a battleship, but in a cruiser I'd be a bit worried. Maybe 100 or 120 rounds?

Borys

[Tanthalas]

1.8 inch torps... and I thought i was bad with 12" models =P

[The Rock Doctor]

Generally speaking, it's a solid design comparable to the various files I've got myself.  Longer range would be good, ~9000 miles.  I've got me an "Empire" of sorts now.

I don't know that I would go with both 5.5" and 3.9" to any significant degree.  If nothing else, the 6x2 194 mm arrangement probably wouldn't leave room for it.  But I'd be curious to see if the design could handle 12 x 5.5" (eight hull casemates, four weather deck) and 2 x 100 mm deck mounts (anti-zeppelin guns).

I'd be aiming for around 150 shells of 194 mm caliber, maybe 120 of 234 mm. 

Torpedos are a question mark (whether 1.8" or 18").  I'm inclined to think that this is the kind of ship that does not want to be in torpedo range of anything, so would leave them out, but I'm open to suggestion.

[Desertfox]

From experience torpedoes on such ships is a bad idea.

Looking back at what you need, I would suggest a much smaller Launceston/Hawkins type ship. You can build more of them, they work fine smashing up similar or smaller cruisers, and ACMs, and are more expendable. This comes from experience.

[The Rock Doctor]

I do have smaller designs on seven to eight thousand tonnes, though the designs are more like small armored cruisers than big light cruisers (ala Hawkins).  Typically 3x2 194 mm, 100mm belt armor, and just over 27 knots with 1909 tech. 

[Carthaginian]

27 knots is the best that anyone is gonna get on 1909 engine, I think... at least, without a class 3 dock to make for a longer ship. I've had some pretty good designs with 7.5"/L45's at that speed, though they were kinda short legged (favoring protection over range). They were basically expounding on the Mobile class.

My 9.2" cruisers are about 24.5-25.5 knots, and wind up being fairly light on protection (compared to what I want) for that speed, considering that many BC's are starting to inch into that speed range.

[Desertfox]

Go with the smaller designs. They are more flexible and expendable. Even speed can't help a poorly crewed ship. 

[Carthaginian]

Small cruisers will die if caught, larger ones might fight off most enemies.
Too much economy will kill a good ship, you have to have enough capability built in.

[Desertfox]

I have 4 small 8" cruisers, all 4 are still alive and have sunk a larger AC. I had 4 larger 8"-9" cruisers, 3 have been sunk (2 due to poor command decisions), with nothing larger than a LC sunk.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
If the speed difference is less then 3 knots or so, the smaller cruiser will get away. It will run for home, while the big raider cannot really give chase (or at least not for long) - as it will burn up coal and be left stranded off the GC coast.

And if this cruiser catches a smaller cruiser, like the to-be-built Austrian 1909 class, it won't be able to catch it, tha's true. It will chase it off and  pursue just enough as to make the intruder burn up enough coal as to force it to return to where it cam from.

I consider this ship as a good defensive cruiser. But I still favour the 4x2x9,2 version.

Borys

[Tanthalas]

im playing around with a 26 kts BC atm on the 1909 engine (realy just an expansion of my 1906 AC).  Im just not sure its worth it.  Ill post it up in a bit see what yall think