New Swiss Destroyers 1909

[Desertfox]

Who said it was useful? ;)

[miketr]

Who said it was useful? ;)

How about possible at all?  It used radio towers you can't fit that on a TB.  All for it to inform the user that there is a ship within 3 km.  No range or direction just that there is a large lump of metal within X distance.

I would try for search lights and starshells...

Michael

[The Rock Doctor]

So long as it's understood that we're still dealing with 1908-ish technology and its limitations, I have no problem with you experimenting on futuristic stuff that probably won't work.

[P3D]

Hydrophones will be taken into a separate techs dedicated to anti-sub warfare, and won't be included in the radar techs.

Your ships aren't designed with sound suppressing signatures either. We are in the 1900s, afterall.

[Desertfox]

Actually it was quite small:
http://www.radarworld.org/huelsmeyer.html

Oh I know its 1908, that's why it's on a second line unit and not on the frontline destroyers. NS is putting more faith and money into hydrophones than radar.

Using TE considerably reduces the sound signature of ships, no actual suppresing is needed.

[The Rock Doctor]

I assume that - in the absence of much hydrophone tech - we're talking more about how far away a ship can be heard by guys standing on the deck of the target?

[swamphen]

Or by the "ears" used by the French...

Hmm, the Huelsmeyer "Seeing Eye" seems to have been spied upon. Ach vell...

[miketr]

Actually it was quite small:
http://www.radarworld.org/huelsmeyer.html

Oh I know its 1908, that's why it's on a second line unit and not on the frontline destroyers. NS is putting more faith and money into hydrophones than radar.

Using TE considerably reduces the sound signature of ships, no actual suppresing is needed.

Interesting but it doesn't match what I have read elsewhere.  In particular that a 30 or 40 foot tower was needed for the receiver.  Perhaps this is a later device but the range matches up...  strange...

[P3D]

Huelsmeyer device operators:

"Looks like there is something in that direction, the voltmeter says so. Unfortunately we don't have any meaningful range information, thus it can be anything from a surfaced U-boot to an island or a whole fleet."

[swamphen]

Telemobiloscop-Gesellschaft Huelsmeyer A.G. is located in Neue Dusseldorf, in the Southern Alps in central Brandenburgia. In co-operation with the Weissenstab Herr Huelsmeyer "perfected" the Huelsmeyer Sehendes Auge Mk I. in 1904:

21 August
OKW, Neue Brandenburg
Transcript of the meeting

Z: Dipl-Ing Ralf von Zinobopp (Weißenstab)
L: Grand Admrial Baron Allard von Letters (Kreigsmarine)
M: Feldmarschall Helmuth von Moltke (Heer)
N: General Walther Nicolai (Abwehr)

Z: Gentlemen, Projekt Emil is a success.

M: Huelsmeyer's contraption worked then?

Z: (irritated) It's a telemobiloscope, not a "contraption"

L: I was there for the test, Helmuth. It works, trust me.

N: I don't recall hearing about this?

L: It was referred to as "Projekt Emil".

N: Oh yes, that.

Z: (ahems) The system is quite ingenous, it will require only slight modification to install on a number of our ships.

L: Only those that can spare fifty tons, though.

M: Fifty tons?! I thought it was very small -

Z: ('lecturing') In order for the device to withstand the rigors of maritime use, it was required for it to be made of more rugged construction than the early prototypes. It also requires a solid mounting, a waterproof cabin for the electronics, room and board for the operator...

M: And how does it work again?

Z: (exsaperated) I've told you all again and again...

M: Humour me.

Z: Very well. (sighs) The device operates somewhat like a Markoni set, at a radio wavelength of 40 to 50 centimeters. The radio pulses produced by the spark-gap transmitter are directed by a funnel-like reflector that is pointed in the direction desired to be scanned. The Markoni waves will bounce off of an object, such as a ship, that is in the path of the beam, and will be picked up by a seperate directional antenna on the originating vessel. If a return signal is receieved, a bell will ring in the operator's cabin. The transmitting antenna can also be adjusted in elevation, and when this is combined with the knowledge of the height of the antenna, the range of an enemy ship can be estimated with a surprising degree of accuracy. There is also a timer mechanism to prevent interference from another ship's Huelsmeyer device.

N: Very ingenious.

Z: As I said.

M: And this is ready for production?

Z: Yes.

M: Can it be used on land?

Z: Presumably, although only when aimed out to sea. The radio waves will bounce off of anything, so while it would be of use in coastal forts, the detection of land forces is...

M: (interrupts) Can it detect airships?

(long pause)

Z: ...it might just be conceivable, yes.

L: Unfortunatly most of our current ships don't have succifficent space for installation.

N: Which do?

L: Existing? Prinz Heinrich, that's it. Most of those under construction or planned can carry it, though. Nautilus, Blücher, the Scharnhorsts...

linky

...and so far it has been installed on the Scharnhorsts, Blücher, and the now-both-DOA Nautilus class minelayers.

"Looks like there is something in that direction, the voltmeter says so. Unfortunately we don't have any meaningful range information, thus it can be anything from a surfaced U-boot to an island or a whole fleet."

Quite so - precise rangefinding is what you need the huge towers for.

[Ithekro]

3,000 meters?  So roughly two miles out you start getting a signal, is that right?

[P3D]

As far as my Electricity&Magnetism classes go (graduate level), determining the distance by the described method does not really work. If there's something out there, you would get a return signal whatever height you place the transmitter-receiver modules. The divergence of the transmitter ray is too wide.
Combine it with the constant change in the list angle.
For the same reason, detection of Airships is not a problem. They would produce larger signal than a warship. But you cannot really distinguish height information. Unless the Airship is right above you.

The only way to determine distance by radar is timing the return of he impulses. That's a few decades (two or three) away.

An experienced operator might make a good guess looking at the return signal strength. A  problem is that it can vary about 4 magnitudes (1 to 10000 range), and the electrotechnology of the age could cope only with serious difficulties with that.

[swamphen]

(Well I was just going by what little I could Google on the device...if it proves not so you can assume it was Scientific Exuberance speaking there.)

[P3D]

It's just the devil in the details.
I vaguely remember from my Googling that this method was proposed by Herr Hülsmeyer himself. But it would not work.

It's like searchlights. At 5000 yards, the illuminated area is just too large - and you see the illuminated ship regardless of your height above the waterline. 1 degree divergence of the searchlight means you have ~80 yards circle on the target. And one degree error of elevation at 5000 yards translates to an error of 2-3000yards in distance.

Consider it the Scientific staff promising the sky, but not being able to deliver it - happened before.

[Desertfox]

I assume that - in the absence of much hydrophone tech - we're talking more about how far away a ship can be heard by guys standing on the deck of the target?

There's war tubas, and water being such a good conductor even a simple hydrophone will work pretty good. Just sticking your head in the water improves aural detection range quite a bit, these hydrophones simply allow you to do that without getting your head wet.

Hmm, the Huelsmeyer "Seeing Eye" seems to have been spied upon. Ach vell...

Call it parallel development. The first RADAR unit (ableitly experimental) to go to sea was Swiss aboard the LC Bagheera in 1901. So far the only Swiss ships with WIDAR are the 2 Constitutions and Bagheera now with an operational unit.

I don't need range information, after Yantai what the NSN wants is something tha says 'hey there's something out there that shouldnt be there'. That's why NS is going both ways using both sound and radio waves, in one doesn't work there's another possibility.

On the development of both:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=993.0