Orange Capital Ships - Old Thread

[P3D]

Italian, French and Austrian Dreadnoughts had relatively deep draught - 29-31 feet for similar size.

[Borys]

All had access to deep harbours.
Borys

[P3D]

I realized that I put 3" deck armor on the BB, too high for any conceivable battle distance. Shaving it down to 2.5" saves 400t displacement.

Orange BB laid down 1912

Displacement:
   22,000 t light; 23,388 t standard; 25,034 t normal; 26,351 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   555.00 ft / 555.00 ft x 93.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
   169.16 m / 169.16 m x 28.35 m  x 8.84 m

Armament:
      9 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,250.00lbs / 566.99kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft
      14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      16 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
      16 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 12,978 lbs / 5,887 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   6 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   356.00 ft / 108.51 m   15.50 ft / 4.72 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   199.00 ft / 60.66 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   356.00 ft / 108.51 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   356.00 ft / 108.51 m   29.00 ft / 8.84 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      11.5" / 292 mm
   3rd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -         1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 45,232 shp / 33,743 Kw = 23.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,963 tons

Complement:
   994 - 1,293

Cost:
   £2.367 million / $9.466 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,600 tons, 6.4 %
   Armour: 9,359 tons, 37.4 %
      - Belts: 4,601 tons, 18.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 573 tons, 2.3 %
      - Armament: 2,204 tons, 8.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,722 tons, 6.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 258 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,803 tons, 7.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,938 tons, 35.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,034 tons, 12.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     29,208 lbs / 13,248 Kg = 23.7 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 4.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 17.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.585
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.97 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m (17.50 ft / 5.33 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      17.50 ft / 5.33 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17.50 ft / 5.33 m
      - Stern:      17.50 ft / 5.33 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.72 ft / 5.71 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 37,237 Square feet or 3,459 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 173 lbs/sq ft or 846 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.70
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[P3D]

Even more bad ideas from Kaapstad. Torpedo battleship. Bismarck-like armor scheme (11" belt and 4" deck at 45 degrees), 6 TT fore , 8-8 sides, 2 aft. TB thickness to signify additional  watertight subdivision around the TTs.

Torpedo Battleship laid down 1912

Displacement:
   23,997 t light; 24,997 t standard; 26,740 t normal; 28,134 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   660.00 ft / 660.00 ft x 91.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
   201.17 m / 201.17 m x 27.74 m  x 8.84 m

Armament:
      4 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      16 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
      16 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 6,649 lbs / 3,016 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   24 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   435.00 ft / 132.59 m   16.50 ft / 5.03 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   225.00 ft / 68.58 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   435.00 ft / 132.59 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      3.00" / 76 mm   435.00 ft / 132.59 m   29.00 ft / 8.84 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      11.5" / 292 mm
   3rd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -         1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 79,818 shp / 59,544 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,137 tons

Complement:
   1,045 - 1,359

Cost:
   £1.984 million / $7.935 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 831 tons, 3.1 %
   Armour: 11,035 tons, 41.3 %
      - Belts: 5,719 tons, 21.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,400 tons, 5.2 %
      - Armament: 1,347 tons, 5.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,299 tons, 8.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 270 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 3,183 tons, 11.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,548 tons, 32.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,743 tons, 10.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     34,043 lbs / 15,442 Kg = 27.7 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 5.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
   Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 15.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.30
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.537
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.25 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.69 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.50 ft / 5.64 m
      - Mid (60 %):      18.50 ft / 5.64 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.50 ft / 5.64 m
      - Stern:      18.50 ft / 5.64 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.26 ft / 5.87 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 41,421 Square feet or 3,848 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 145 lbs/sq ft or 710 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.22
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Sachmle]

Why would you want that many TTs, or any for that matter, on a BB? By the time you close to torpedo range you've defeated the purpose of the BB, to hit hard from far away. I understand this is a "concept ship", but still. IMO it's a bad idea.

[The Rock Doctor]

In fairness - he did say it was a bad idea right in the thread.

It's a quaint idea - but if you were to build it, I'd dump the big guns for more armor or, perhaps, anti-cruiser guns.  You're not looking to shoot up battleships on the way in to torpedo range, you're looking to keep the enemy's screening elements from torpedoing you first.

[Korpen]

Even more bad ideas from Kaapstad. Torpedo battleship. Bismarck-like armor scheme (11" belt and 4" deck at 45 degrees), 6 TT fore , 8-8 sides, 2 aft. TB thickness to signify additional  watertight subdivision around the TTs.

Torpedo Battleship laid down 1912

Somehow that ship put me in mind of the late WW1 "large light cruisers". :)

I think the concept might work if she is reduced in size a bit, such a large torpedo loadout can if nothing else be usefull to disrupt enemy torpedo attacks on her before they get into range to launch their own torpedos.

[Ithekro]

Somehow I recall that some navy had proposed a torpedo battleship at some point, but I honestly can't think of who or when this was proposed.

[Sachmle]

In fairness - he did say it was a bad idea right in the thread.

And I was just agreeing w/ him. It's an interesting idea, but IMO  ;) an ultimately useless one.

[The Rock Doctor]

Ithekro - I think the Russians contemplated this, probably pre-revolution.  I assume the designer wound up in a gulag for his troubles.

[Sachmle]

Ithekro - I think the Russians contemplated this, probably pre-revolution.  I assume the designer wound up in a gulag for his troubles.

Or apparently in Orange. ;D :D ;D

[P3D]

Actually the USN did, around WWI. Battleship size, hardly any armor (4" turtledeck, no  belt) 4x14" and a zillion (32) 6" gun. Too lazy to look up Friedmann.

The design idea was inspired by battleship designs with 15"+ (i.e. inpenetrable) belt armor. This ship is supposed to take punishment, get close, and launch fishes at the enemy battleline. Won't do the job better than 20 DDs, though.

[Valles]

Thing is, though, given torpedo hit rates, and given that, by my understanding, tubes take a couple of minutes to reload, most of those super-armored ships aren't going to be much more impressed by those than they would be by gunfire.

[P3D]

Well, the ship can get close to improve hit chances. Then torpedoes are generally unimpressed by belt armor, and will cause some flooding. This ship can launch like 22 torpedoes (side ones with gyro settings, and after those torpedoes passed the ship, the bow ones, then disengage).

Still, better to get 22-30 destroyers, as the survivors would have more torpedoes to launch than one monstre ship.

Torpedo hit rates are basic trigonometry.

[Ithekro]

Armored Kitikomi more or less.