Thread for discussion of the 1914 Roman-Aztec War. IC News & Stories here.

Are you guys scripting battles or is Kirk gaming them?

Kirk will be gaming, but we may script some stuff later on.

I have a feeling the ratio of sim to script will shift towards script as the war winds down.  But early on, likely to be all simmed, at least in the broad strokes.

As Tac says, it may shift as things go on.
I'm aiming to play out the first fights on Tuesday/Weds.

A reminder to always properly sight your guns...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F8p3BvetSA

I have a feeling cavalry will be a tad more important than in OTL.

Quote from: Desertfox on October 23, 2020, 11:19:57 AM

I have a feeling cavalry will be a tad more important than in OTL.

Considering the success of Russian Cavalry, I think where the battlespace is big enough for them, they could be very effective.
Of course the last successful Cavalry charge was in 1942...by the Italians...against the Russians.  Oddities.

So fighting in hurricanes is a bad idea. I knew Foxy was involved somehow :P

Snip and TacCovert have asked me to post the Commentary and then Battle description in the OOC thread.

I feel the Battle Commentary is a useful preamble to the Battle....which is a long read.

Overall,

I think the Aztec had slightly above average luck, while the Romans had average.

Notable occurrences were the Romans lost 2 destroyers very quickly, an later had 2 eliminated by 7cm Crits for "3x structural damage".
As a 7cm did 40pts damage, and the E-Class could take 160, those hits alone were crippling, and when combined with even 1 more..fatal.

The Dividorum were less effective than expected, both being masked by the E-Class for a while, and then middling to poor roles.

The Battleships actually rolled rather well, their effectiveness was limited by the need to change targets after swatting an MTB, but they were chewing through.
The loss of the Imperito class was unfortunate, more torpedoes 'hit' than the odds, and random target allocation put them on one vessel. Had they been strictly
to the odds, both Battleships *may* have made it.


What I find interesting is the difficulty the Aztec had when they needed to search for the Roman fleet, they wasted 20 minutes in the NE
while the Roman freighters turned and headed South.
I expected the Aztec had read the Chinese version of the Cheju-do battle, and knew the Chinese led their MTBs with DDs, copying that.

Realistically, it was the Roman E-Class DDs which headed North to engage the Aztec, which pulled the rest of the Aztec forces South, and into conflict
with the Roman fleet.
It made logical sense, because in the darkness the sentry could only see a dozen vessels forming the southern edge of the Aztec force.
Jad the entire Roman force immediately headed, SE, they may have broken contact.

However, with the information the Romans had, they mounted an effective defense. Had there been 10 more E-Class destroyers, the result would likely be a Aztec disaster. The successive lines of defenders engaged and destroyed ~30 vessels.  This was an adaptation of the Japanese effort in the last battle, and essentially meant they were chewing through the attackers as fast as they could resolve FC on them. 

Ironically, the MTBs are so small that basically any hit is a kill, be it 140, 100 or 75mm.  With the Roman 14cm, a hit also killed a Scimitar, while a 10cm tended to cripple.  So the results would have been similar if the Aztec had thrown 50 DDs at the Romans, just the cost to the Aztec would be higher.

Ironically, had they been all Scimitar class, the number of destroyed vessels would be similar, but the tonnage cost far higher.


Erratta :

Aztec :
2 x 'Scout' class SC
8x 'Scimitar' class DD
50x MTB-A

Roman :
2 x Imperito Class PD
2 x Divodurum Class PC
10 x E-Class DD

Predawn : 0353
Daylight : 0523

Weather : Was Sea state 2, now 3, with a Tropical storm rolling in from the SE.  The storm is passing over Vilnus territory, but the very limited radio broadcasts do not make understood.
Note : I place a limit of Sea State 4 on MTB ops / Amphibious landings.

This is the battle description portion.

The sea state has worsened from 2 to 3, a 10 knot wind with large wavelets and some breaking crests, but well within the MTB's abilities. The Aztec Strike is timed for the predawn hours, between 0323 and 0523, namely 445am.  Columns of MTBs are led by Destroyers, while Cruisers bring up the rear. Having steamed through areas well charted by them, they arrive on schedule.  Seeking to catch the Romans against the rising Sun, they aim to pass North of Grand Turk, then fan out East and South looking for the Romans. While the Destroyers do not train with the MTBs, they do have both radios and chart rooms for coordination, so the burden falls on the MTBs to follow.

The Romans, having safely waited the night out at sea, were planning to return to the beach shortly after dawn to resume off loading. At 445am they were 11 nm away from the beaches, using the growing light to reform the flotilla.

At that time, the scouting Destroyer North of  Grand Turk flashed the warning.
The Roman E Class Destroyer was 4nm North Northwest  of Grand Turk when sentries saw the 2 Aztec Scimitar class, followed by 10 MTBs, looming out of the predawn at only 8000m away. Their attention was grabbed by the peal of gunfire and splashes erupting around their vessel.

For the Romans, A radio call to the Fleet, the leading destroyers only 24km away in the morning gloom, was made as the Destroyer came to battle stations and returned fire. The Boiler were already hot, and steam was fed into the boilers to bring them up to speed. In the Aztec fleet, a radio call rippled Northwards, alerting the other columns of discovery, and engines started to come up to speed.

With the E class having but one 10cm gun bearing forward, the helm was brought about to parallel the Aztec course.

The skirmish takes a long 16 minutes, the Aztec being hindered by the two destroyers firing at one target, and having difficulty making out the splashes from the small 7cm round at that range. The Roman has no problem, the new optics and the larger 10cm splashes giving them an advantage. They rapidly land two 10cm shells on the lead destroyer, sending her out of line, a third shell sets her coal stocks ablaze, and she drifts burning in the night.  The second Aztec destroyer continues the engagement with the superior Roman. They fight bravely and the Aztec is severely damaged, but an explosion collapses the Roman's aft stack and starts a fire, rendering her a wreck.

In the meantime, the Roman Admiral has been making orders, sending the frieghters on a turn south, to be then head SE, away from the Aztec force. Contingencies to scatter are given. The battlefleet will try to cover, while the beach side destroyers run north to find the Aztecs and find just how many there are.

Over the next 20 minutes, the Romans landing force turns to the South East , while the Admiral orders his warships to make 'S' turns to cut forward progress while keeping steam up. The Fleet shakes out in 3 lines, 6000m apart, each visible to the next in the early light. The Southern destroyer forms up, while the beach destroyers plow North.

To the North, the Aztec have passed the apex of the island, and now begin their grand arc heading south. When the Romans had departed the beach, they had headed NE, and this hook was designed to catch them just beyond the island, or if they were absent, sweep south and pin them to the beach in the morning, where they be hopefully be in the process of anchoring. The early skirmish had destroyed that hope while not telling them where to search. So now at 20 knots they swing south, while the stokers work hard to bring steam pressure up to full. 

At 515 in the Morning of July 7th, the two Roman 'beach' destroyers find themselves between a pair of Aztec scout cruisers off the NE tip of the island, and a pair of Aztec destroyers heading south, and followed by 30 MTBs. The Romans radio the fleet, and engage the destroyers while themselves being surrounded in a forest of shell splashes  For the Aztec, the lifting gloom finally shows a short line of Roman destroyers in the distance, the Roman screen. The destroyers communicate by radio and accelerate to flank. The following MTBs take the hint and also accelerate.


The second engagement starts badly for the Romans as the four Aztec vessels focus on the lead DD, and the two sides each loose a destroyer. With the range dropping rapidly towards 4000m, both sides find the firing soloution easy, and the two cruisers punish the Roman, but not before it cripples the remaining Scimitar class.

Dawn finds the Aztec fleet deployed as hoped, charging southeast out of the dark towards a Roman fleet limed by the rising sun. However, a line of Roman E-class Destroyers are at the edge of visibility, their number reduced to just 7.  For the first time, the Romans can get an accurate estimate of the Aztec force, 2 small cruiser from the West, and from the North 4 destroyers and 50 MTBs. While the Aztec destroyers make their best speed, the following MTBs take to wide weaving behind them as evasive maneuvers, and also to keep their position, as the MTB's decks only allow about 7miles visibility, and the Destroyers mast tops much more.

Firing at an 8m wide target, 6.6nm away, when it takes your shell 15 seconds to reach there and the target moves over 200m in that timeframe is surprisingly difficult, but twice 10cm shells impact on 40t MTBs, with adverse effects.  As the Aztecs charge, seeking the heavier warships beyond the Roman destroyers, more MTBs are struck. The Aztec 7cm counter fire lightly damages several destroyers.  As the MTBs close, their bows pitching through the chop, they open fire with their forward pintle mount 4cm, but fail to hit the targets moving 30knots at 3nm away. The distant Dividorum cruisers claim their first victim, as a 140mm shell impacts an MTB.

The wave of MTB splits to pass foe and aft of the Romans, the 10cm guns become masked and only a few can bear, but those are deadly, and the MTB losses reach 10.  The Roman gunners and FC scramble to bear on the far sides of their vessels, reaquiring targets and engaging their darting foes.  Ahead of the Roman line, the slower Aztec destroyers are in position to 'cross the T', while behind, their old Scout Cruisers prepare to do the same.  In the distance, the muzzle splashes of the Roman battleships tertiary armanent can be seen.

At point blank range, the Aztec Scimitar gunners hammer at the two lead E-Class destroyers, turning the first into a flaming wreck with a dozen quick 7cm hits, while 15 hits on the 2nd destroyer turn it into a flaming pyre. The remaining 5 Romans have to quickly veer to avoid runniEang into the wreckage at 32knots.  To add insult to injury, 4cm holes appear in some of the rest.

The 5 columns of 10 MTBs have been heavily battered, numbering 8, 5, 5, 8, 9.
The MTB columns closest to the Roman Cruisers, which have also taken the brunt of the punishment, has one take a slant angle, while the second passes in front, and the 10 MTBs combine to launch 20 torpedoes at 2000m,  while the other 3 columns hurtle towards the battleships in the distance.

The two cruisers make sharp turns away, minimizing the profile and maximizing run time. They successfully avoid most of the torpedoes from the western MTBs, with only 1 striking home, but 4 of the Eastern torpedos slam home on one cruiser. The fact one is a dud is of little help as 3 explode and the cruiser vanishes. The other cruiser is lucky, as the hit is in the stern. Unfortunately the hit destroys the stern and the crew is very concerned about sinking.

The remaining 25 MTBs bear down on the Battleships, while the Aztec Destroyers and Roman Destroyers continue to trade fire, and the Aztec cruisers slowly close the distance.   The rear Aztec destroyer is torn by shells and looses power, adrift. In return, the cruisers savage the rear E-class, with one sinking quickly, the other staggering out of line. The Aztec destroyers reduce the already damaged lead destroyer to sinking condition as well.  As the Roman destroyers pass behind the Aztec, they continue to fire, but as both sides switch targets, they fail to hit.

As the lead MTBs approach the battleships, 5 are destroyed by accurate fire, leaving but 3 in the first launch.  The 6 torpedoes cause the battleships to make a sudden turn away to comb the wakes, but a torpedo slams into the aft starboard side of one, the flash causing a fire in one of her several engine room, and with a slight loss in speed she continues, pumps going.  To the North, the two E-Class settle into a stern chase of the 3 Scimitars, but are limited by their single gun forward, which has been wrecked in the case of the lead destroyer, which is damaged. 

The battleships switch targets to the last two groups of incoming destroyers, destroying 4  before they reach launch positions. The lead Roman destroyer takes a disabling hit to the boilers. The last E-class destroyer (fails morale) breaks for the open ocean.

The 13 MTBs launch from ranges of 1500-2000m, 5 broadside to the battleships, and 8 having passed astern and launching on the port quarter. The Roman Admiral orders the ships to attempt to avoid the aft Torpedoes, as there are more of them. Only 1 of those 16 strikes, but 4 of the 10 do., but 2 are duds, one of which was Imperito's sole hit. The remaining 3 live torpedoes strike the already wounded Sublimis. One wrecks the shafts, while the other two strike sequentially abreast of Y turret, and a shaft of smoke and flame blows the roof off the turret as the ship breaks up.

The Imperito finishes it's turn and focuses on the lead Aztec Scimitar, only 9000m away. At 8000m, she finds the range, and the lead Scimitar disintigrates.

At this point, the Aztec Admiral calls off the action. His force had been told it was sacrificial, and had lost heavily, but shattered the Roman fleet. The remaining 2 destroyers and 2 old scout cruisers, (plus 26 MTBs with no torpedoes), were unlikey to be able to sink or even seriously injure the remaining battleship, but may loose all vessels. The Aztec vessels start evasive manuevers, laying smoke and heading away. The Imperito, and the lone E-Class regroup to escort the scattered merchants away.

As the morning progresses, the winds get worse and worse, and by evening the winds are over 40knots, hitting 57knots at midnight, and raging for days.   The Aztec fleet shelters in their anchorage on Grand Turk. The Roman fleet is scattered at sea, with 1 freighter lost, 2 driven ashore. The two flotillas that headed for Ocean wind up in the Bahamas, the remainder make Guantanamo Bay.  The Imperito makes harbor. The surviving E-class radios that they are foundering and is not seen again.

Losses:
3 Scimitars Sunk
1 Scimitar 60% dam – makes port
1 Scimitar 80% dam – sinks before making port. All crew off.
1 Scimitar 90% dam – adrift, lost in storm. 
2 Scimitars 25% dam
24 MTBs – sunk

1 Imperito Class – Sunk
1 Dividorum Class – Sunk
1 Dividorum Class 75% dam, ablaze– Scuttled to avoid capture, all crew off.
4 E-Class – 80% damage, scuttled to avoid capture, all crew off.
5 E-Class – sunk.
1 E-Class – lost at sea. (Seakeeping 0.64)

My thanks to Kirk for such a detailed battle.  I think this could possibly be the largest single action, if you discount some of the Sino-Japanese actions that carried over multiple days.

Ya, the detail here is wonderful. I hope anyone looking to assault a Roman port in the future is looking forward to hundreds of MTBs  ;)

Quote from: snip on October 24, 2020, 11:59:41 AM
Ya, the detail here is wonderful. I hope anyone looking to assault a Roman port in the future is looking forward to hundreds of MTBs  ;)

Same with Aztec ports.

Actually the last Sino-Japanese battle was bigger, but it was indeed in multiple parts, so was effectively 3 battles.
Had the surface combat gone forward it would have been fascinating, but I really really didn't want to wipe out the IJN, so I'm glad terms were announced.

What I keep seeing is that while MTBs should be limited - and are- in range/ seakeeping/ vulnerability / search area/ communications...
they are cheap enough that if deployed in quantity they can saturate the defenses.
Then toss in most of the targets haven't been very large or fast.

In this case the Romans had good fire control and could engage several minutes further downrange, and thanks to the searching delay, the Aztecs were not coming out of the night, so a -4 poor light modifier instead of -10 nighttime. Which is why the Romans chewed so many of the attackers.

Curiously, the older Aztec torpedo technology, the 1905, requires them to close to knife-fight ranges, but since range is a divisor in the formula SK4 uses,
that pays off in increased accuracy.  Like the latter stages of the Sino-Japanese, I was  halving the SK4 'hit %' as it seemed a-historically high. 
That accuracy may drop as better tech leads to longer ranges...oddly enough.
While I've considered adding a factor for 'fire control' to torpedo launches - ala the 'torpedo Direction center; but that would apply beyond the historic 3000m 'eyeball' FC range,
and all these launches were inside that.