New thread !
1916.5 ASW Refits
The Parthians have been slow on the submarine uptake, as the early vessels are so limited they have little use for them. So far they have merely built some experimental examples to explore how they can be deployed.
Having now finished the 1910 version, and aware that other nations are working on the next generation, the capabilities seem to be moving in a direction which makes the submarine a potential problem.
At this point, submarines are not considered a critical problem for the fleet, but a potential annoyance. That annoyance could blossum to a full fledged problem if left unadressed and untrained for.
The time to start considering that problem is early, and having deduced that foreign navies were using hydrophones for ASW, the Parthians have belatedly developed some kit of their own, which they now wish to deploy.
The biggest problem is the realization that an effective force would require at least 3 vessels to triangulate, but 3 'search' vessels and 1 'attack' vessel sharing plots via radio would be best combo. This means groups of 4 vessels would be necessary to prosecute a submarine contact.
Their newest designs were optimized for surface combat, to engage and destroy enemy torpedo craft as far from the fleet as possible, or launch their own torpedo attacks. These designs have little development room left, and no spare listening rooms. Further, there is no desire to take these valuable vessels off their primary role to deal with what is still a minor threat.
So the Parthians look to their older destroyers for trial efforts. The 1904 and 1906 classes are partial coal burners, and half way through their lifespan, they are unlikely to be sent on assault missions, so dedicating them to battleline defense seems reasonable.
These can be sent in groups of 4 ahead of the fleet's line of travel and conduct "sprint and drift" operations to help ensure clear passage.
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The sixteen 1904 Destroyers are still felt capable vessels, but are unlikely to be assigned to torpedo attack. They can easily be broken into groups of 4.
The first step is removing gear :
-2t : The old windtowers can be removed
-4t : The torpedo outfit can be reduced to just the two "cheek firing" forward 18".
-3t : The construction reserve can be used up.
-4.7t : Remove the rear 90mm gun to clear the deck. (ammo is kept the same)
Then the new ASW elements can be fitted.
1T – New CO2 compresser ACs fitted for habitability.
5T- The Basic ASW package with the boom mikes, spares and operators.
1T- ASW Kite
6t – Depth Charge rails.
All fall under "Basic Refit" , so the cost is : 13t per 1904 DD.
13 x 16 = 208
COST = $0.021, 0.021
However, as these ships are 12 years old, the Parthians choose to do a "Refurbishment"
For a cost of $.1 each. BP cost is the same, $ cost is doubled.
Total : $0.1 + ($0.021*2) = $0.142, 0.021BP each
$2.272, 0.336BP for class
ed; bah, forgot the SS
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Spear R1916, Parthia Destroyer laid down 1904
Displacement:
499 t light; 519 t standard; 601 t normal; 666 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(231.63 ft / 228.35 ft) x 22.15 ft x (9.51 / 10.23 ft)
(70.60 m / 69.60 m) x 6.75 m x (2.90 / 3.12 m)
Armament:
1 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal gun - 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 360 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1899 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
2 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 180 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1899 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
Weight of broadside 66 lbs / 30 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
2nd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Conning towers: Forward 0.98" / 25 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9,866 shp / 7,360 Kw = 26.30 kts
Range 2,650nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 146 tons (93% coal)
Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery
Complement:
59 - 78
Cost:
£0.068 million / $0.272 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 12 tons, 2.0 %
- Guns: 12 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.5 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.2 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 338 tons, 56.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 126 tons, 21.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 102 tons, 17.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 19 tons, 3.2 %
- Hull below water: 5 tons
- Hull above water: 7 tons
- On freeboard deck: 5 tons
- Above deck: 2 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
140 lbs / 63 Kg = 6.3 x 3.5 " / 90 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.57
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 8.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.13
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.437 / 0.451
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.31 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.11 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 11.81 ft / 3.60 m, 11.15 ft / 3.40 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 11.15 ft / 3.40 m, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m, 9.35 ft / 2.85 m
- Average freeboard: 9.56 ft / 2.91 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 189.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 94.2 %
Waterplane Area: 3,192 Square feet or 297 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 30 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 20 lbs/sq ft or 100 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.73
- Overall: 0.56
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
This Class of Destroyers are an effort to exploit the turbine technology for further speed. The first true Destroyers rather than enlarged ocean going torpedo boats, they are Larger, faster, and better armed. They sacrifice about 1/4knt of performance for slightly better seakeeping, allowing them to operate in the Persian Ocean.
Trial Speed is : 26.3kts + 2.75 : 29.05kts
These little ships rely on boilers burning coal boilers oil sprayed coal, there is sufficient fuel for a 10 day journey, with a 10% reserve. Of the 8 boilers, 2 are 100% coal, and 6 are oil-sprayed coal. They can manage 18.71 knts on the coal fired boilers alone.
The guns are arranged with A and Y, but with two casements in the superstructure (like the Omaha CLs) clearance forward, giving 3 guns bearing forward, and 3 on either beam. The guns are equipped with 6mm spray shields.
Miscellaneous weight is as follows :
8t - 4x 18" mm torpedoes. Two torpedoes fire forward from the "cheeks" like an E-boat, and two on a turntable in the rear.
2t - Extra ventilation
2t - 1905 fire control
7t - Void, construction reserve
Speed with the single 100% coal fire boiler is 18.65knts, allowing virtually all peacetime activity to be done using existing coaling facilities around the Persian ocean.
Trial Speed: 25.6+ 2.75 : 29kts
1907 refit : 2t
2t + 1905 fire control
-2t construction reserve
1916 Refurbishment
1T – New CO2 compresser ACs fitted for habitability.
5T- The Basic ASW package with the boom mikes, spares and operators.
1T- ASW Kite
6t – Depth Charge rails.
For the 1906 series there are only 8 destroyers, but that will suffice for 2 search groups.
For them the deletions are
-10t Short Range Radio (automatic with refurbishment)
-4 Windcatcher ventilation
-6 construction reserve
- Aft 90mm gun (ammo kept same)
New :
1t : CO2 compressor AC
15t : enhanced Hydrophone package
1t : ASW Kite
5t : Depth charges
---
22t
Refurbishment : .75 *.2 = $0.15/vessel +.044
$0.194 + 0.022 BP / vessel
$1.552 + 0.176 BP Class
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Atlatl, Parthian Fleet Destroyer laid down 1906
Displacement:
749 t light; 785 t standard; 883 t normal; 960 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(308.19 ft / 304.46 ft) x 31.17 ft x (8.04 / 8.53 ft)
(93.94 m / 92.80 m) x 9.50 m x (2.45 / 2.60 m)
Armament:
3 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 333 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1904 Model
3 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 2.36" / 60.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 7.05lbs / 3.20kg shells, 400 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1904 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 94 lbs / 43 kg
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 11,950 shp / 8,915 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 3,600nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 175 tons (20% coal)
Complement:
80 - 105
Cost:
£0.097 million / $0.387 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 19 tons, 2.1 %
- Guns: 19 tons, 2.1 %
Machinery: 468 tons, 53.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 222 tons, 25.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 133 tons, 15.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 4.6 %
- Hull below water: 15 tons
- Hull above water: 6 tons
- On freeboard deck: 16 tons
- Above deck: 3 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
274 lbs / 124 Kg = 12.3 x 3.5 " / 90 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.53
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 9.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.10
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.23
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.405 / 0.415
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.77 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 13.91 ft / 4.24 m, 13.91 ft / 4.24 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 13.91 ft / 4.24 m, 10.63 ft / 3.24 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 10.63 ft / 3.24 m, 10.63 ft / 3.24 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.63 ft / 3.24 m, 10.63 ft / 3.24 m
- Average freeboard: 11.78 ft / 3.59 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 180.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.3 %
Waterplane Area: 5,543 Square feet or 515 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 53 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 119 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.11
- Overall: 0.54
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Trial Speed 28.5kts
Misc. Weight.
16t - 8 x 21" TT , 1 sets torpedo
4t - increased ventilation
2t - 1905 Fire control refit
10t- Short ranged radio
6t - construction reserve remaining.
1907 Basic Refit :2t
2t - +1905 Fire control
-2t construction reserve
1916 Refurbishment
1t : CO2 compressor AC
15t : enhanced Hydrophone package
1t : ASW Kite
5t : Depth charges
Last but not least, a new "Patrol Sloop".
The other piece of the puzzle seems to be numbers, and simply being able to patrol near ports to ensure enemy raiders do not sneak into harbors to torpedo warships or lay mines. These vessels would need to be in place prior to any wars and will help deter potential foes from seeking this asymmetric solution.
The current series of minewarefare vessels are an example of vessels meant to answer that need. Parthian harbors have dedicated minesweeping component run by naval professionals. With the ASW component being added, a new vessel needs to be considered.
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Sentry PS-1, Parthian Senty Class Sloop laid down 1918
Displacement:
600 t light; 616 t standard; 660 t normal; 696 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(239.52 ft / 236.22 ft) x 29.53 ft x (6.56 / 6.83 ft)
(73.00 m / 72.00 m) x 9.00 m x (2.00 / 2.08 m)
Armament:
1 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal gun - 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1899 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline forward
3 - 1.77" / 45.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 2.80lbs / 1.27kg shells, 100 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1899 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
Weight of broadside 30 lbs / 14 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.12" / 3 mm - -
2nd: 0.12" / 3 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 2,373 ihp / 1,770 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 2,600nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 79 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
64 - 84
Cost:
£0.085 million / $0.341 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 6 tons, 0.9 %
- Guns: 6 tons, 0.9 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.2 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 143 tons, 21.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 255 tons, 38.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 60 tons, 9.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 195 tons, 29.5 %
- Hull below water: 60 tons
- Hull void weights: 4 tons
- Hull above water: 48 tons
- On freeboard deck: 32 tons
- Above deck: 51 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,238 lbs / 561 Kg = 55.6 x 3.5 " / 90 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 11.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.04
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.55
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.505 / 0.511
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.37 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 12.30 ft / 3.75 m, 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.66 ft / 3.25 m, 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.84 ft / 3.00 m, 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.84 ft / 3.00 m, 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
- Average freeboard: 10.32 ft / 3.15 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139.4 %
Waterplane Area: 4,669 Square feet or 434 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 133 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 36 lbs/sq ft or 178 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.81
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
A adjunct to the CPC-1 Mackeral class of coastal patrol cutters,
combining some of it's roles with those of the 40-strong MSE-13 class of minesweepers.
Designed primarily as an affordable subchaser/minesweeper/sentry ship.
Range is sufficient to transit between territories,
while coal burning provision allows for local coal/wood to be used if bunker oil runs short.
A kite balloon, echoing the Japanese, is fitted for reconnaisance purposes, and for sub-spotting.
Minesweeping gear, such as paravanes, booms, trawls, is stored.
The main gun is a 90mm QF, the common light naval gun. The HV rounds will not penetrate water worth a darn, but will provide ranging information on misses. One hit with a SAP is expected to penetrate a submarine hull easily.
45mm QF are also mounted to give 360 degree capability.
Simple rangefinders and plotting tables are fitted. The plotting tables will be used in both FC and plotting attack runs.
A 'full' hydrophone package is fitted.
As is typical in Parthian service, provision for coal/wood firing is made so that the vessel can operate from commercial coal stocks.
A turbo-electric plant is fitted, along with batteries. This is hoped to allow the ship to manuever quietly. Turbo-electric has been used for the MSW class for years, the ability to use full reverse/forward on either screw assisting in manueverability, thought useful in minefields.
The ship has a small hold, as it is anticipated it may be used to ferry cargos along territorial coasts, where it's high manueverability and shallow draft may proove useful.
Mercantile
600t x 0.02 = 12
-4.4 guns
-.5 Firecontrol
=7 tons for ASW weapons.
1t ASW Kite
6t 30x 195kg DCs
= 7 tons ASW weapons
Miscellaneous Weights :
AD :
25t LR radio
0.5t FC
25t Kite Balloon
OD :
1t : ASW Kites
6t : 30x 195kg DC.
25t Minesweeping gear
HAW:
45t Miscellaneous Cargo
3t CO2 compressor AC
Hull below water:
15t "Enhanced Hydrophone Package".
35t Turbo-electric generators
10t Batteries
While posting my HY1 1917 turn, I realized I hadn't refurbished the two Recalde class purchased from Iberia.
Since the unrefitted vessels have breechloading 140mm with no fire control,
I figured I should explore the cost of refurbishment.
The Parthian's floating dock can be towed to Ria de Janerio to accommodate the refeubishment.
We'll start with the costs, then what the refurbished vessel would look like.
The final cost is $0.50 , 0.17 BP each, or $1 and 0.34 for both.
So I'll leave this up a couple days for comments, then likely revise my turn as that's very easy to fit into the budget. It's close to my surplus amount as is.
1917 Refurbished Armanent A/1/2 are on deck, "X" is superimposed to allow clear arcs over mine rails.
1/2 are mounted Fore deck aft, above the 1.2m break in deck height, allowing fire aft over the torpedo tubes.
1917 Refurbished Misc WeightAD---0.7t Fire Control
AD---25t Long Range Wireless
AD--- 5t Flotilla Leader Facilities
OD---18t 2T3 530mm Torpedoes, aft deck forward.
OD---36t stern mine rails and 40 mines
1917 refurbishment
Base cost : $0.2212
removed armanent- 140mm BL guns & armor :-83t, 28mag
- 57mm QF guns : -4.7t, 1.9mag
- torpedoes : -32t
- mmines&minelaying : -38t
----
-187.6t
added armanent :55t : + 130mm QF gun
9.6t : +90mm AA
29.9t : + mags
-----
94.5t
Refurb Cost : 0.0945 BP, $0.189
Armor & Functional Misc Wt20t : Gun shields
0.7t : Fire Control AD
18t : 2T3 21" torpedoes, Aft deck foreward
36t : mine rails & 36 mines
-----
74.7t
Refurb Cost : 0.0747 BP, $0.0747
Non-functional Weight25t : Parthian Long Range Radio
5t : Flotilla Leaders command center
----
30t
Refurb cost : 0 BP , $0.015
------
Refurbishment costs
0 BP, $0.015
0.0747 BP , $0.0747
0.0945 BP, $0.189
$0.2212
Sub total Cost per vessel :
0.1692 BP : Rounds to 0.17 BP
0.4999 $ : Rounds to 0.50 $
The vessel :
Quote
Recalde, Iberian Cruiser-Gunboat laid down 1905
Displacement:
1,106 t light; 1,164 t standard; 1,392 t normal; 1,575 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(257.68 ft / 255.91 ft) x 33.46 ft x (11.15 / 12.31 ft)
(78.54 m / 78.00 m) x 10.20 m x (3.40 / 3.75 m)
Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 155 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
1 raised mount aft - superfiring
2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
2 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 220 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1912 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 331 lbs / 150 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 255.91 ft / 78.00 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 0.98" / 25 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 0.98" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 2.95" / 75 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 4,290 shp / 3,200 Kw = 18.80 kts
Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 411 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
113 - 148
Cost:
£0.106 million / $0.423 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 64 tons, 4.6 %
- Guns: 64 tons, 4.6 %
Armour: 191 tons, 13.7 %
- Belts: 61 tons, 4.4 %
- Armament: 20 tons, 1.5 %
- Armour Deck: 102 tons, 7.3 %
- Conning Tower: 8 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 354 tons, 25.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 411 tons, 29.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 286 tons, 20.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 85 tons, 6.1 %
- On freeboard deck: 54 tons
- Above deck: 31 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,748 lbs / 793 Kg = 26.1 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.37
Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 10.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 65 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.24
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.30
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.510 / 0.523
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.65 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.66 ft / 0.20 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 12.80 ft / 3.90 m, 12.14 ft / 3.70 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 12.14 ft / 3.70 m, 11.15 ft / 3.40 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 7.22 ft / 2.20 m, 7.22 ft / 2.20 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 7.22 ft / 2.20 m, 7.22 ft / 2.20 m
- Average freeboard: 9.58 ft / 2.92 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 86.6 %
Waterplane Area: 5,545 Square feet or 515 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 121 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 52 lbs/sq ft or 253 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.79
- Overall: 1.06
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
So, with the proliferation of destroyer designs, I figured I'd post one.
I've been trying different destroyers as well, and may wind up with 2-3 designs.
There seems to be a different need for an oceanic destroyer that has range and seakeeping,
versus a fleet destroyer for more traditional roles.
Then the idea of fights in the Gulf of Aden, or Straits of Madagascar, or Indonesia, or Caribbean
- all smash and dash, pick your weather, hide in riverine deltas... a coastal type.
This one is one of the Oceanic Destroyers.
Like most Parthian ships, tough for it's type but slower than what these young empires are fielding.
But dagnab it, it's hard to keep up with little whippersnappers.
Palang (Leopard), Parthian Corvette laid down 1920
Displacement:
1,494 t light; 1,563 t standard; 1,852 t normal; 2,082 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(391.97 ft / 387.14 ft) x 36.09 ft x (10.66 / 11.58 ft)
(119.47 m / 118.00 m) x 11.00 m x (3.25 / 3.53 m)
Armament:
4 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck centre
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 269 lbs / 122 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
2nd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 30,674 shp / 22,883 Kw = 31.15 kts Trial Speed: 31.78
Range 4,750nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 519 tons
Complement:
140 - 183
Cost:
£0.459 million / $1.834 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 44 tons, 2.4 %
- Guns: 44 tons, 2.4 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.2 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 927 tons, 50.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 447 tons, 24.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 358 tons, 19.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 73 tons, 3.9 %
- Hull below water: 15 tons
- Hull void weights: 25 tons
- On freeboard deck: 28 tons
- Above deck: 5 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
596 lbs / 270 Kg = 11.3 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.49
Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 10.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.21
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.435 / 0.450
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.73 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.68 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m, 15.58 ft / 4.75 m
- Forward deck: 25.00 %, 15.58 ft / 4.75 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Aft deck: 40.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 14.12 ft / 4.30 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 169.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 162.9 %
Waterplane Area: 8,807 Square feet or 818 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 79 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 31 lbs/sq ft or 150 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.07
- Overall: 0.54
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
This has a ~4400nm range to
get to an base and back, or skip past one,
but also a high cruising speed so that the vessel can move about the battleline.
At the fleet speed of 14knots, that gives them a range of 6500nm.
At maximum speed they can only reach 750nm, which takes 24hours. This would allow them to make a near full speed dash out into a contested area and return to base.
At a more reasonable speed of 20 knots, which fits their hull length, they can manage 2700nm, allowing them to quickly transit between Parthian bases, giving more strategic flexibility.
Additionally, they want them to be able to prosecute contacts, and so are provided with Depth Charges.
Weaponry is meant to be
1 DC
A (B) == == (C) D
2 DC
The 1 & 2 90mm AA mounts are mounted en-echelon
on a tower between the torpedo tubes. The
Tower serves as a primitive TDC as well.
The design forfits some gun power for overall seakeeping and range.
Miscellaneous Weight :
25t - reserve
15t - Advanced Hydrophone sets
10t - Depth Charges
18t - 2TT3 21" Torpedoes
5t - FC
It's a well-rounded can, I like it.
So the above Palang destroyer is a candidate for the follow on to the Seahawk class, mainly for Pacific use, where the range and seakeeping will help.
I'm thinking of calling those 'Corvettes'.
I'm toying with 1000-1200 ton 'Fleet destroyers' for the remainder. Enough to fit in ASW suites and normal seakeeping and range.
Then there's the various explorations of 24hr speed run destroyers for coastal work.
I'm also looking at small cruisers.
After the Sino-Japanese war, that need for night time detection pickets and then extra secondaries led to the Maelstrom and Ranger classes.
But they are decent sized vessels, that it would be nice to unshackle from the fleet.
What I need is a vessel fast enough to move around the fleet.
If bigger/faster cruisers show up, they can retreat to the guns of the Capital ships. So they don't have to outrun everything.
With the new Stormbringers at 26kts, and the old ACs at 27kts, 27-28 seems about right.
These can extend the warning range of the fleet day or night.
Then if there is the sound of lots of high speed propellors, they need to move that direction and form a skirmish line.
Hopefully about 16-18km from the fleet, but I will take what I can get.
Starshell would then cover from ~12km from them, and then between them and the fleet.
Then they need the guns to actually chew up the DDs/MTBs,
and the armor to not take fatal hits from their guns.
They will be small and fast enough that dodging torpedoes is realistic.
So I've been thinking about things like an Atlanta Class cruiser.
In the end I have a range from `2500 tons to 3750 to 6000.
I have them in 165mm single mounts and 130mm twin - about the same wt.
So here's a small, slow cruiser, meant to escort the battleline and chew up MTBs/DDs.
Bakr, Parthian Empire Frigate laid down 1919
Displacement:
4,498 t light; 4,809 t standard; 5,607 t normal; 6,246 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(461.31 ft / 456.04 ft) x 45.93 ft x (18.70 / 20.30 ft)
(140.61 m / 139.00 m) x 14.00 m x (5.70 / 6.19 m)
Armament:
16 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 77.16lbs / 35.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1919 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1919 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,332 lbs / 604 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 314.67 ft / 95.91 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 0.98" / 25 mm 141.34 ft / 43.08 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.18" / 30 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.38" / 35 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.97" / 50 mm, Aft 1.97" / 50 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 38,375 shp / 28,628 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 6,600nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,437 tons
Complement:
323 - 421
Cost:
£1.044 million / $4.176 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 369 tons, 6.6 %
- Guns: 369 tons, 6.6 %
Armour: 716 tons, 12.8 %
- Belts: 298 tons, 5.3 %
- Armament: 87 tons, 1.6 %
- Armour Deck: 304 tons, 5.4 %
- Conning Towers: 27 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,363 tons, 24.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,602 tons, 28.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,109 tons, 19.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 449 tons, 8.0 %
- Hull below water: 87 tons
- Hull void weights: 45 tons
- Hull above water: 79 tons
- On freeboard deck: 150 tons
- Above deck: 88 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
4,961 lbs / 2,250 Kg = 74.0 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 14.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.77
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.501 / 0.514
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.93 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m, 17.22 ft / 5.25 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 17.22 ft / 5.25 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Aft deck: 39.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Quarter deck: 11.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Average freeboard: 15.82 ft / 4.82 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 126.0 %
Waterplane Area: 13,969 Square feet or 1,298 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 75 lbs/sq ft or 369 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.85
- Longitudinal: 1.42
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
The Parthians are concerned that naval combat is looking
like rock>paper>scissors>rock.
The descriptions from the Sino-Japanese war of 'skirmish' lines seems to be an effective means of dealing with light fast raider forces. There seems to be further emerging threats such as aerial or undersea, both of which can likely be best handled if detected further out.
All of this suggests having a specialized 'escort' ship, which simply needs sufficient speed to manuever around fleet elements.
While the Parthian battleline is 20knots, the newest heavy ships are 26 knots, and the older ACs are 27knots. So a speed of roughly 27-28 knots is needed to ensure widest utlitily.
As they would conceptually be advanced to ~18000m towards any onrushing MTB/DD night attack, they need to be fitted with sufficient fire control to divide fire and rapidly destroy attackers on both sides of the vessel.
Seakeeping is not critical, as those light attackers would do poorly in heavier seastates.
Due to poor development of ASW techniques, they are fitted with depth charges and hydrophones, and equipped for battery use 'on station' while hunting. In reality they are far to big and expensive to be good choices in this role. The hydrophones will help pick up distant propellors though.
Misc Wt
45t - Wt Reserve
40t - Dual Fire Control
25t - LR radio
23t - 30m cage mast (battleship level sight lines)
25t - Hulesmeyer
25t - War Tubas
25t - Night Fighting
25t - Kite Balloon
50t - additional accomodations
22t - 2x T3 21" torpedoes on fantail
7t - depth charge rack on fan tail.
25t - Imp Fire suppression
5t - A/C
50t - additional accomodations
15t - Hydrophones
50t - Reserve space
22t - Imp Pumps
Decks :
4.5m: Weather deck
2.0m : Battery Deck, Top Main Belt, Armor deck
-0.5m : Main Deck
-1.0m : Bottom main belt
-4.5 : Engineering
-5.0 : Double bottom (liquid filled)
We really need to have the abilities of thing like war tubas and hulesmeyer devices quantified in the rules set.
I was really expecting more along the lines of 'it's to slow and weakly armored' or 'bad idea for X' or 'hey that might work' or 'damn that's alot of guns'.
A cry for more rules was not expected.
I just find the different ways people are dealing with the Sino-Japanese War lessons interesting. Romans with insane secondaries, Parthians with dedicated cruisers, Japanese with hunter-killer destroyer groups.
But looking at the cruiser above, its a golden BB waiting to happen with so much ammo all over the place. Light forces are likely to have cruisers backing them up as well.
It's got a lot of guns. But honestly too many. While sure, it can take on maybe 3 DDs simultaneously.....it's not going to be very effective fighting against other cruisers that can just punch holes in it. 50mm belt isn't enough to repel 150mm or 180mm shells, and 180mm is bog standard for a full up cruiser these days.
Overall, I've also looked into the type. But I don't think its viable in its tonnage range until the 1920 cruiser tech is complete. Being able to build it down to .75 comp might make it useful. Otherwise, I'd suggest that a Trio of destroyers would be more effective.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on September 08, 2021, 10:21:03 PM
I was really expecting more along the lines of 'it's to slow and weakly armored' or 'bad idea for X' or 'hey that might work' or 'damn that's alot of guns'.
A cry for more rules was not expected.
Maybe it works, maybe not. It seems very crowded for the size of the hull.
My initial concern remains constraining the capabilities of equipment that has no real history of actual, practical use. I have no idea whether I should be setting aside for a war tuba because I basically understand it to be fictional at this point.
QuoteBakr, Parthian Empire Frigate laid down 1919
IMO,
8T2x130...too much
4T2 is correct
28kts is the minimum
------------------------------
Byzantium prefers super destroyers to protect BBs and CVs with more classic armament like:
4T2x120 or 4T2x140
or may be 3T2x152 + 4T2x102AA
Lunchtime :)
Let's see
A) Golden BB / To thin armor : Again, the idea was that these would stay near the fleet, and if big cruisers wanted to fight, they'd scurry back.
So their main foe would be destroyers/MTBs.
The standard load for a destroyer gun is HE - the foes are unarmored, the guns are small so AP won't penetrate much armor anyhow, and AP has a smaller burster and does less damage.
So normally DDs would not be carrying AP, only HE. For that, 40-50mm will stop all the rounds. The Deck armor will stop all the splinters up to ~200mm shells. So a golden BB is unlikely.
Footnote : USN 6"/53 on the Omahas were expected to penetrate 102mm at 6,300yards, and 51mm at 13,800yards.
B) 3 DDs instead of Cruiser : That was where I started. Adding the various miscellaneous weights desired, the range desired, and then still fitting under the destroyer rules was not working.
So I produced a 2500ton unarmored cruiser with destroyer armaments. Then I started adding guns and armor. Then I hit 6000t, and decided to trim it down.
C) I don't really want to go down to 8x 130. This is like Atlanta, with fewer centerline mounts, but an extra pair of flanking mounts aft.
I can however, swap T2 130s for T1 165s at 1:1. So I can field 16x 130mm or 8x 165mm.
D) Crowded hull size - The SS says :
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
So, theoretically there's plenty of room.
D) Hulesmeyer / War Tuba.
I'm not sure what "rule" is needed. Both existed. I don't know if the War Tuba ever was used on ships, and I certainly don't think they look like 25t..but ok.
Hulesmeyer at this time is basically a proximity alert that there's something metal between 0 and 10,000m "that a way".
War Tuba could probably pick up the roar of MTB engines at a considerable distance,
but so can hydrophones when used.
Version 2.
Now - with more armor !...and this is the 165mm version.
... I shaved 1/2 knot, lost the end belts, trimmed the freeboard, and that allowed me to shrink the belt height to +1.5 to -1.0m.
I don't like loosing the 1/2 knot, but I did define the target range as 27-28. So it's still in the design goal.
Bakr, Parthian Empire Escort Cruiser laid down 1919
Displacement:
4,497 t light; 4,796 t standard; 5,605 t normal; 6,252 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(460.96 ft / 456.04 ft) x 47.01 ft x (18.86 / 20.47 ft)
(140.50 m / 139.00 m) x 14.33 m x (5.75 / 6.24 m)
Armament:
8 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1919 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1919 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,243 lbs / 564 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 296.42 ft / 90.35 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Ends: 0.98" / 25 mm 159.58 ft / 48.64 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 1.18" / 30 mm 3.54" / 90 mm
2nd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.38" / 35 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 0.98" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 3.94" / 100 mm, Aft 1.97" / 50 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 3 shafts, 35,534 shp / 26,509 Kw = 27.50 kts
Range 6,700nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,456 tons
Complement:
323 - 421
Cost:
£0.962 million / $3.847 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 300 tons, 5.3 %
- Guns: 300 tons, 5.3 %
Armour: 928 tons, 16.6 %
- Belts: 440 tons, 7.8 %
- Armament: 105 tons, 1.9 %
- Armour Deck: 343 tons, 6.1 %
- Conning Towers: 40 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 1,262 tons, 22.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,595 tons, 28.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,107 tons, 19.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 413 tons, 7.4 %
- Hull below water: 70 tons
- Hull void weights: 45 tons
- Hull above water: 60 tons
- On freeboard deck: 130 tons
- Above deck: 108 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
5,616 lbs / 2,548 Kg = 41.0 x 6.5 " / 165 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 14.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.485 / 0.499
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.70 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m, 16.08 ft / 4.90 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 16.08 ft / 4.90 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Average freeboard: 14.55 ft / 4.44 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116.8 %
Waterplane Area: 14,093 Square feet or 1,309 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 76 lbs/sq ft or 369 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.87
- Longitudinal: 1.27
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
The Parthians are concerned that naval combat is looking
like rock>paper>scissors>rock.
The descriptions from the Sino-Japanese war of 'skirmish' lines seems to be an effective means of dealing with light fast raider forces. There seems to be further emerging threats such as aerial or undersea, both of which can likely be best handled if detected further out.
All of this suggests having a specialized 'escort' ship, which simply needs sufficient speed to manuever around fleet elements.
While the Parthian battleline is 20knots, the newest heavy ships are 26 knots, and the older ACs are 27knots. So a speed of roughly 27-28 knots is needed to ensure widest utlitily.
As they would conceptually be advanced to ~18000m towards any onrushing MTB/DD night attack, they need to be fitted with sufficient fire control to divide fire and rapidly destroy attackers on both sides of the vessel.
Seakeeping is not critical, as those light attackers would do poorly in heavier seastates.
Due to poor development of ASW techniques, they are fitted with depth charges and hydrophones, and equipped for battery use 'on station' while hunting. In reality they are far to big and expensive to be good choices in this role. The hydrophones will help pick up distant propellors though.
Misc Wt
45t - Wt Reserve
60t - Dual Fire Control
25t - LR radio
23t - 30m cage mast (battleship level sight lines)
25t - Hulesmeyer
25t - War Tubas
25t - Night Fighting
25t - Kite Balloon
30t - additional accomodations
22t - 2x T3 21" torpedoes on fantail
8t - depth charge rack on fan tail.
25t - Imp Fire suppression
5t - A/C
30t - additional accomodations
15t - Hydrophones
30t - Reserve space
25t - Imp Pumps
Decks :
4.1m: Weather deck
1.5m : Battery Deck, Top Main Belt, Crown protective deck deck
-1.0m : Main Deck, Bottom main belt, lower edge protective deck
-4.5 : Engineering
-5.0 : Double bottom (liquid filled)
QuoteA) Golden BB / To thin armor : Again, the idea was that these would stay near the fleet, and if big cruisers wanted to fight, they'd scurry back.
So their main foe would be destroyers/MTBs.
The standard load for a destroyer gun is HE - the foes are unarmored, the guns are small so AP won't penetrate much armor anyhow, and AP has a smaller burster and does less damage.
So normally DDs would not be carrying AP, only HE. For that, 40-50mm will stop all the rounds. The Deck armor will stop all the splinters up to ~200mm shells. So a golden BB is unlikely.
Footnote : USN 6"/53 on the Omahas were expected to penetrate 102mm at 6,300yards, and 51mm at 13,800yards.
It wasn't just about the thin armor, but more the tons of ammo needed to feed all those guns. Golden BB has a lot higher chance to hit a critical spot. Note that at least for Japanese destroyer squadrons, they have one or two light cruisers present as leaders, specifically to provide cover fire against ships like these. Also the Fubukis are designed to take a bit more of a cruiser role and would have AP for the HV 5" guns.
QuoteBakr, Parthian Empire Escort Cruiser laid down 1919
Navalism & the Escort Cruiser dilemme.
Escort Cruiser question is once again asked after N3, N4, N5...
Quote...All of this suggests having a specialized 'escort' ship, which simply needs sufficient speed to manuever around fleet elements.
While the Parthian battleline is 20knots, the newest heavy ships are 26 knots, and the older ACs are 27knots. So a speed of roughly 27-28 knots is needed to ensure widest utlitily.
I must admit that the reasoning is unstoppable.
;)
27kts is sufficient to scout, escort, and engage enemy DDs and Scout Cruisers ... if BBs are 20-21kts.
Our Navies must be built according to our tactical and strategic needs not according to the ships that have existed even if these constitute a reference.
It is a formula that I have already used.
Quote from: Desertfox on September 09, 2021, 02:08:55 PM
Footnote : USN 6"/53 on the Omahas were expected to penetrate 102mm at 6,300yards, and 51mm at 13,800yards.
It wasn't just about the thin armor, but more the tons of ammo needed to feed all those guns. Golden BB has a lot higher chance to hit a critical spot. Note that at least for Japanese destroyer squadrons, they have one or two light cruisers present as leaders, specifically to provide cover fire against ships like these. Also the Fubukis are designed to take a bit more of a cruiser role and would have AP for the HV 5" guns.
[/quote]
I wouldn't know that about the Fubukis at this point, but I also wouldn't advocate AP for 5" - or planning on engaging a cruiser in a gun fight.
Against the 50mm version, you're correct, a 90deg shot could likely penetrate at 10km or less. So that may be a little light.
I ran expected penetration for the various Parthian guns so I have an idea of the 5" probably can do.
You'd probably only be able to penetrate a normal cruiser on a 90deg shot under about 6km, less at an angle.
Which is likely a night engagement, and so a closing engagement.
Presumably, you'd skirmish with DDs first, then meeting this vessel - a mixed line of Parthian cruisers. Only some of which would be this type.
At which point you have to unload (fire) the HE in your guns/lockers/hoists, bring up AP, and use that, ...if facing a cruiser which you ID as the right type.
If you pass the cruiser and start engaging a destroyer, you'll need to swap back.
Which would make for very limited utility.
As I recall, shots that penetrate have a chance at crits, shots that don't do very little. HE does 3x (?) shellwt and AP 1x, SAP 1.5x ?
So, a single 130mm (or one of your 5") would drop one of your ~450floatation DDs to 'half health', while my DD above would be down to 2/3rds.
While one of my 165mm HE shells will pretty much kill any DD it hits.
While a 5" round- or lots of them - will sting and have a chance to crit.
The floatation on the Bakr is 5600, unless you get a mag explosion, it would take a very long time to kill with 5".
As for the magazines, I think that's an inherent risk, and good reason to fit the splinterproof armor deck.
It might be reason to convert the armor deck to a protective deck. At the ranges, no one will arc over the belt to strike the slopes.
Quote from: Jefgte on September 09, 2021, 03:10:20 PM
Our Navies must be built according to our tactical and strategic needs not according to the ships that have existed even if these constitute a reference.
It is a formula that I have already used.
It's an excellent point.
This ship, with the high mast, the kite balloon, over-water acoustics, underwater acoustics, proximity alert (hulesmeyer) is a response to the heavy torpedo attack waves we've seen here. So that I can find and respond quickly. It's a different challenge than they were looking at the real world. My newest battlewagons have heavy secondaries, TDS, and torpedo nets...but it's still best to find and engage the foe as far from the battleline as possible.
But at this point I'm expecting the battlewagons to engage at specific points - repelling a landing somewhere, controlling a strait, protecting landing at a foreign shore, or as a 'fall back' for raiders.
And so mass light craft attacks, or distant surface approaches by subs, would be part of the counter...especially if these actions are anywhere near the Red Sea and the Byzantine swarms. But I don't think the Byzantines will oblige to sailing into the Persian Gulf...
None of those battleline uses require a ton of speed. If my fleet gets alot faster because everyone else is, the ship looses alot of utility. Likewise, as better future tech comes available it will loose some utility, but most of our 10-15 year old ships are showing their age... .
Quote...None of those battleline uses require a ton of speed. If my fleet gets alot faster because everyone else is, the ship looses alot of utility. Likewise, as better future tech comes available it will loose some utility, but most of our 10-15 year old ships are showing their age... .
These 27kts escort cruisers will always be used to scout and protect the Parthians 20kts BBs,
Gilgamesh, Enki, Tiamat, Vazra.
The downgrading of these escort cruisers will not happen if they are modernized in 12 or 15 years.
So trying to include the critiques I toyed with the little Cruiser.
Still not sure if the 8x T2 130mm or 8x T1 165mm is a better choice, but the 130mm weigh 369tons while the 165mm weigh 300 tons.
Adding in Fore & Aft fire control, that's 443t vs. 360t - a 83ton difference.
Two 130mm rounds kill a DD, but do little to a Cruiser.
One 165mm round kills a DD, and hurts a Cruiser.
But 130mm fire faster...
Anyhow, the main difference is the end belts vanish and the forecastle is unarmored.
While the main belt drops to +1.5 above WL to -1m below WL, and thins to 90mm.
That's the minimum to be hardened and so can better defeat non-AP.
with a 4 m freeboard, and a ~2.5m deck, the 1.5m is the main armor deck, and so the belt covers from that to underwater 1m.
Should be satisfactory.
I could convert the armored deck to a protective deck, to give a 30mm slope behind the belt.
At this short ranges, the chance of a shell arcing over the belt to hit the slope is minimal....but does provide that Golden BB path>
I could close that path, but that would mean thinning the belt to 75mm pr less..which removes most of the reason to have a protective deck
So armored deck it is.
Speed ticks up to a full 28knots.
So...130mm or 165mm....I am leaning 165mm
Quote
Bakr, Parthian Empire Escort Cruiser laid down 1919
Displacement:
4,495 t light; 4,806 t standard; 5,603 t normal; 6,240 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(460.96 ft / 456.04 ft) x 47.57 ft x (19.03 / 20.61 ft)
(140.50 m / 139.00 m) x 14.50 m x (5.80 / 6.28 m)
Armament:
16 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 77.16lbs / 35.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1919 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1919 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,332 lbs / 604 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.54" / 90 mm 310.11 ft / 94.52 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 1.18" / 30 mm 3.54" / 90 mm
2nd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.18" / 30 mm
Forecastle: 0.00" / 0 mm Quarter deck: 1.18" / 30 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 3.54" / 90 mm, Aft 1.97" / 50 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 3 shafts, 38,089 shp / 28,415 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 6,600nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,434 tons
Complement:
323 - 420
Cost:
£1.041 million / $4.163 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 369 tons, 6.6 %
- Guns: 369 tons, 6.6 %
Armour: 794 tons, 14.2 %
- Belts: 367 tons, 6.5 %
- Armament: 106 tons, 1.9 %
- Armour Deck: 283 tons, 5.1 %
- Conning Towers: 37 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 1,353 tons, 24.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,593 tons, 28.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,107 tons, 19.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 387 tons, 6.9 %
- Hull below water: 60 tons
- Hull void weights: 25 tons
- Hull above water: 50 tons
- On freeboard deck: 130 tons
- Above deck: 122 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
4,940 lbs / 2,241 Kg = 73.7 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 14.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.475 / 0.489
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.59 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m, 16.08 ft / 4.90 m
- Forward deck: 35.00 %, 16.08 ft / 4.90 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Aft deck: 33.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Quarter deck: 12.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Average freeboard: 14.62 ft / 4.46 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 103.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117.8 %
Waterplane Area: 14,135 Square feet or 1,313 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 77 lbs/sq ft or 376 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.86
- Longitudinal: 1.33
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
The Parthians are concerned that naval combat is looking
like rock>paper>scissors>rock.
The descriptions from the Sino-Japanese war of 'skirmish' lines seems to be an effective means of dealing with light fast raider forces. There seems to be further emerging threats such as aerial or undersea, both of which can likely be best handled if detected further out.
All of this suggests having a specialized 'escort' ship, which simply needs sufficient speed to manuever around fleet elements.
While the Parthian battleline is 20knots, the newest heavy ships are 26 knots, and the older ACs are 27knots. So a speed of roughly 27-28 knots is needed to ensure widest utlitily.
As they would conceptually be advanced to ~18000m towards any onrushing MTB/DD night attack, they need to be fitted with sufficient fire control to divide fire and rapidly destroy attackers on both sides of the vessel.
Seakeeping is not critical, as those light attackers would do poorly in heavier seastates.
Due to poor development of ASW techniques, they are fitted with depth charges and hydrophones, and equipped for battery use 'on station' while hunting. In reality they are far to big and expensive to be good choices in this role. The hydrophones will help pick up distant propellors though.
Misc Wt
25t - Wt Reserve
74t - Dual Fire Control
25t - LR radio
23t - 30m cage mast (battleship level sight lines)
25t - Hulesmeyer
25t - War Tubas
25t - Night Fighting
25t - Kite Balloon
22t - 2x T3 21" torpedoes on fantail
8t - depth charge rack on fan tail.
25t - Imp Fire suppression
5t - A/C
20t - additional accomodations
15t - Hydrophones
20t - Reserve space
25t - Imp Pumps
Decks :
4.1m: Weather deck
1.5m : Battery Deck, Top Main Belt, Crown protective deck deck
-1.0m : Main Deck, Bottom main belt, lower edge protective deck
-4.5 : Engineering
-5.0 : Double bottom (liquid filled)
So the semi-final iteration of Bakr is above.
I've shown the Oceanic Destroyer. 1500 tons is worth it for the Pacific.
For the Fleet Destroyer, I wanted more in the 1000-1200 ton range.
I have a couple different versions.
I have a 4x 120mm with 6x 18"TTs
and a 3x 120mm with 6x 21" TTs.
I could do the 4x90mm instead of the 3x120mm.
I have the Misc weight to 21" on both, but at the cost of some of the ship's utility.
The real advantage of the 3x120mm is I have more spare wait for that utility aspect,
and I still have 2 guns forward, and a 'stinger' if pursued.
Anyhow, the 4x 120mm Fleet Destroyer.
I don't like the survivability being so low, but it's tight design.
Fleet Destroyer, Parthian Empire Fleet Destroyer laid down 1919
Displacement:
996 t light; 1,049 t standard; 1,221 t normal; 1,359 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(325.48 ft / 321.52 ft) x 30.61 ft x (10.17 / 11.00 ft)
(99.21 m / 98.00 m) x 9.33 m x (3.10 / 3.35 m)
Armament:
4 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
1 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal gun - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air gun in deck mount, 1919 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck forward
1 raised mount
Weight of broadside 245 lbs / 111 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
2nd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 23,173 shp / 17,287 Kw = 30.33 kts Trial Speed: 31.28
Range 4,800nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 310 tons
Complement:
103 - 134
Cost:
£0.287 million / $1.147 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 39 tons, 3.2 %
- Guns: 39 tons, 3.2 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.2 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 613 tons, 50.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 289 tons, 23.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 225 tons, 18.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 52 tons, 4.2 %
- Hull below water: 15 tons
- Hull void weights: 6 tons
- Hull above water: 7 tons
- On freeboard deck: 20 tons
- Above deck: 4 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
356 lbs / 161 Kg = 6.8 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.52
Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 9.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.27
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.427 / 0.440
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.93 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Average freeboard: 12.19 ft / 3.72 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 173.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128.4 %
Waterplane Area: 5,853 Square feet or 544 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 68 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 138 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.28
- Overall: 0.54
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Intended as a potential Fleet destroyer.
Excellent seakeeping from a raised forecastle.
Range to reach a base and return at fleet speeds
Good light gun armanent
AA gun
Heavy torpedo loadout
Enhanced Hydrophones for an ASW role
DC
A(B) TT(AA)TT (X) Y
DC
Range @ Speeds :
29.5kts(90%) : 605nm (20hrs)
25.5kts (50%) : 955nm (37hrs)
16kts : 3,400nm
With the fleet at 12-14knots,
14 or 16 knots allows reasonable range when working with the fleet from bases.
The ability to make a 36hr sweep of 900m allows
them to interdict substantial areas, acting as Coastal Torpedo boats for that purpose.
Misc wt :
6t Reserve Wt.
3.9FC
12t 2TT3 18"
8t DC
1t CO2 A/C
1t ASW Kite
5t Paravanes
15t Enhanced Hydrophone package
I was expecting some discussion on the Fleet Destroyer and the merits of 4x120 vs. 3x120 & more "stuff" vs. 4x 90.
Anyhow the Next is a 1913 'Never Built' for 'sharing'.
Anyhow, Tac's experiments with 180mm "frigates" put me in mind of the whole series of ships I was intending on building,
and then I needed to build land units and deployment points.
That was Waaaaay back for 1913. I did a range of ships with 180mm in the 11-13,000t and 230mm in the 14-17,000t.
Anyhow, while most of those were 10x 180mm in single M&H, I did do this one with Twin M&H- wasn't paying attention to the rotating weight.
I'm calling these 'Light Armored Cruisers', as folks were starting to build 28,000 ton 'heavy armored cruisers'.
I still thought that if the idea is to kill off PCs/CLs, a smaller ship could do.
So, in hindsight, this would have been interesting to build in 1913.
Quote
Fusilade, Parthian Armored Cruiser laid down 1913 (Engine 1916)
Displacement:
12,997 t light; 13,623 t standard; 15,030 t normal; 16,155 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(606.01 ft / 598.75 ft) x 72.18 ft x (22.97 / 24.30 ft)
(184.71 m / 182.50 m) x 22.00 m x (7.00 / 7.41 m)
Armament:
12 - 7.09" / 180 mm 43.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 190 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1913 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, forward deck aft
1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm 45.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1913 Model
8 x Single mounts on centreline, forward deck aft
1 raised mount
4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,787 lbs / 1,264 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 496.98 ft / 151.48 m 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
Ends: 0.98" / 25 mm 101.77 ft / 31.02 m 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
Main Belt covers 128 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
0.98" / 25 mm 496.98 ft / 151.48 m 20.77 ft / 6.33 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 52.49 ft / 16.00 m
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.69" / 170 mm 2.56" / 65 mm 6.50" / 165 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm - 0.59" / 15 mm
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.57" / 40 mm
Forecastle: 0.79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 1.18" / 30 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.71" / 145 mm, Aft 3.54" / 90 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 92,722 shp / 69,171 Kw = 30.50 kts
Range 7,800nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,532 tons
Complement:
678 - 882
Cost:
£1.262 million / $5.047 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 627 tons, 4.2 %
- Guns: 627 tons, 4.2 %
Armour: 3,553 tons, 23.6 %
- Belts: 1,959 tons, 13.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 376 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 247 tons, 1.6 %
- Armour Deck: 849 tons, 5.7 %
- Conning Towers: 121 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 3,455 tons, 23.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,989 tons, 33.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,033 tons, 13.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 373 tons, 2.5 %
- Hull below water: 45 tons
- Hull void weights: 90 tons
- Hull above water: 25 tons
- On freeboard deck: 60 tons
- Above deck: 153 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,615 lbs / 9,351 Kg = 115.9 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 2.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 4.3 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 14.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.530 / 0.538
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.30 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.47 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 10.00 %, 27.07 ft / 8.25 m, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forward deck: 50.00 %, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 25.43 ft / 7.75 m
- Aft deck: 33.00 %, 17.22 ft / 5.25 m, 17.22 ft / 5.25 m
- Quarter deck: 7.00 %, 17.22 ft / 5.25 m, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Average freeboard: 22.49 ft / 6.86 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 123.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 186.4 %
Waterplane Area: 29,602 Square feet or 2,750 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 117 lbs/sq ft or 570 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.57
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Designed to revert to the original missions of the armored cruiser, in a vessel roughly 50% larger than a protected cruiser, but the final design is closer to twice as large.
This is the follow on the prior Fusilade, ditching the wing mounts for a centerline turret arrangement, like a minature battleship.
A raised forecastle, an additional 1/2 knot of speed, the sacrifice of the upper belt, and an extra meter of beam to add a TDS mark vast changes in the basic design. The main armored deck has been raised to allow greater room for the engines, and consolidated to one 40mm deck, which should stop any armor cruiser round.
The new TDS is 3 m deep on each side and rises from the bilges at -6.33m to the bottom of the armored deck at 2.25m above the waterline. This allows the 25mm bulkhead to also serve as a splinter bulkhead.
2 4 6 8
A [P] Q [Y] X
1 3 5 7
Miscellaneous Weight :
90t - Construction Reserve
126t - 2x Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
60t - 'Windtower' evaporative cooling
25t- Extra pumps
20t - Underwater Torpedoes. Located aft of citadel, above quarterdeck armor. 2 TT2 18" each side. 6 reload TT below.
Decks :
7.75 - Forecastle deck.
5.25 - Weather Deck
2.75 - 50mm armored Battery Deck, top of main belt.
0.25 - Main deck
- 1.75 Bottom Main Belt
-2.25 - 1st deck,
-5.75 - Engineering Deck, 4m high
-6.33 - Double Hull.
You may have mentioned it before, but why just 18" torps on the 1919 destroyer?
QuoteI was expecting some discussion on the Fleet Destroyer and the merits of 4x120 vs. 3x120 & more "stuff" vs. 4x 90.
Well I stuffed 4x5" into 750tons so you know what I'd be leaning towards. In this day and age of 1500t DDs, the 90mm guns are mere popguns.
I didn't go into detail, but I did mention it.
I can spare the extra 6 tons to upgrade to 21" , but
then I either have no reserve, or give up some utility.
As for the merits of 21" vs. 18",
It's something I'm toying with.
I'm unsure of the proper choice of action.
Against most targets, which have no TDS, they both make a big hole that lets in huge amounts of water.
That hole is actually about the same size for both.
Against a target with a TDS, which should be the minority, it seems likely that most designs will be intended
to thwart the 1908 or 1913 tech 21" version, and so presumably a 1 or 2 torpedo hit kill is unlikely with either.
So the main effect is rupturing the side shell and causing flooding ... which both do...and slow down the enemy vessel.
OR...if it's already battered, then a whole bunch of torpedoes can be used, in which case the TDS can be overwhelmed.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on September 15, 2021, 11:54:06 PM
I have a couple different versions.
I have a 4x 120mm with 6x 18"TTs
and a 3x 120mm with 6x 21" TTs.
I could do the 4x90mm instead of the 3x120mm.
I have the Misc weight to 21" on both, but at the cost of some of the ship's utility.
The real advantage of the 3x120mm is I have more spare wait for that utility aspect,
and I still have 2 guns forward, and a 'stinger' if pursued.
Quote from: Desertfox on September 16, 2021, 10:07:38 PM
In this day and age of 1500t DDs, the 90mm guns are mere popguns.
I would prefer a 100mm option, for a better ROF/shell wt trade off, but I don't have that gun.
The 1,500tonners just can't take much damage, and would degrade quickly from it.
So I am trying to have capable and smaller DDs which I can afford in more reasonable numbers.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on September 16, 2021, 10:22:22 PM
Quote from: Desertfox on September 16, 2021, 10:07:38 PM
In this day and age of 1500t DDs, the 90mm guns are mere popguns.
I would prefer a 100mm option, for a better ROF/shell wt trade off, but I don't have that gun.
The 1,500tonners just can't take much damage, and would degrade quickly from it.
So I am trying to have capable and smaller DDs which I can afford in more reasonable numbers.
Nothing wrong with small and reasonable. That's why I have a swarm of GTBs in service. I needed something 'dd-ish', I needed a lot of them, and I couldn't afford to wait due to losses in the Caicos War. So I build 500 tonners en masse to create the DD-like torpedo threat and as close to a DD gun threat as possible for literal peanuts.
I mean, I don't like 3 gun DDs, 4 guns is sort of a minimum in my opinion, but 3 is somewhat doable for a DD because of the relatively shorter ranges involved in DD combat.
I understand your 'generalist destroyer' needs, with those in mind the 3x120 is adequate I think. I'd shy away from 90mm as it's not heavy enough to even threaten a cruiser at all, which is problematic for something this size.
No, it's not going to match up with things like my D class fleet destroyers. Or the upcoming F class. But they're fleet destroyers with little or even no built in ASW.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on September 16, 2021, 10:22:22 PM
I would prefer a 100mm option, for a better ROF/shell wt trade off, but I don't have that gun.
The 1,500tonners just can't take much damage, and would degrade quickly from it.
So I am trying to have capable and smaller DDs which I can afford in more reasonable numbers.
I feel your pain, being in an even worse position not having anything between 75mm and 127mm, with sizes increasing its no longer as big of an issue, but did push Japanese destroyer design primarily towards surface warfare.
As for torpedo sizes the other advantage a 21" torpedo has is range. Japan didnt go with heavy 21" for warhead size but for range and speed capabilities. You can either hit them from further away, or you can hit them faster from the same range. Or you go with batteries and hit them silently from closer up.
The 4x120mm design seems more optimized for a defensive role than an offensive one.
I suppose you could swap out two triple 18" carriages for a pair of double 21".
You're having the same problem with destroyer guns that I have with cruiser guns: Big gap in the inventory, lack of time/funding to fix it.
Same problem that I have. 130mm, 180mm, 280mm in modern guns. The 150s and 210s are really too old to be putting in new ships but I don't want to burn up my research on a lot of guns.
Quote from: TacCovert4 on September 17, 2021, 11:34:36 AM
Nothing wrong with small and reasonable. That's why I have a swarm of GTBs in service. I needed something 'dd-ish', I needed a lot of them, and I couldn't afford to wait due to losses in the Caicos War. So I build 500 tonners en masse to create the DD-like torpedo threat and as close to a DD gun threat as possible for literal peanuts.
As I mentioned elsewhere I'm looking at 3 different broad types of Destroyers. The Oceanic for longer range ops, the 'Fleet' which needs numbers and utility roles, and then a 'Coastal' which will echo what you describe. I want the 'Coastal' to be more of a 'Torpedo boat' able to make a long range, high speed 'sweep' and return to base, providing a viable gun and torpedo threat.
Operating out of bases like Salahah in the Gulf of Aden, Stone town and Sofala -bracketing the Straits of Madagascar, Aceh and Palembang and Borneo, Jamaica and Trinidad.
Quote from: Desertfox on September 17, 2021, 11:46:26 AM
As for torpedo sizes the other advantage a 21" torpedo has is range. Japan didnt go with heavy 21" for warhead size but for range and speed capabilities. You can either hit them from further away, or you can hit them faster from the same range. Or you go with batteries and hit them silently from closer up.
With the way hit % drops off with range, I'm not certain how viable long range torpedo attacks are..or were. The early long lance were initially successful, but that was with 1940s targeting, and targets that didn't realize a torpedo was en route. Later long lance hit ranges dropped considerably.
Range is consideration still - and speed, and the 21" historicals have that.
This is one reason I need to find time to delve into my book on torpedoes and match it to our tech table.
The table doesn't say "historical 21" torp", it has the torpedo diameter, and the types of torpedo tech in use - like wet heater.
The way the tech table is constructed there is no particular reason you couldn't field a 16" with advanced wet heater engines and an advanced fuse. Which might give better ranges for lightwieght torpedoes - But teasing apart what that means is a little rough, so we're just using historical for now.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on September 17, 2021, 01:36:29 PM
The 4x120mm design seems more optimized for a defensive role than an offensive one.
I suppose you could swap out two triple 18" carriages for a pair of double 21".
You're having the same problem with destroyer guns that I have with cruiser guns: Big gap in the inventory, lack of time/funding to fix it.
So thinking about Rocky's initial question, while I had thought it through,
I got to wondering if I was missing the obvious.
...I'm not limited to 1,000 tons.
Heck I said I wanted a 1000-1200.
So what was the opportunity cost of those 6 tons?
Heck, lets get the construction reserve up to 15t like I wanted.
Apparently that all costs ...43 tons.
or $0.0043 and 0.0043BP
That might...just might...be affordable.
So I need to redo the range at speed calcs, but here's the revised ship.
Quote
Fleet Destroyer, Parthian Empire Fleet Destroyer laid down 1919
Displacement:
1,043 t light; 1,097 t standard; 1,274 t normal; 1,416 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(325.48 ft / 321.52 ft) x 30.61 ft x (10.66 / 11.51 ft)
(99.21 m / 98.00 m) x 9.33 m x (3.25 / 3.51 m)
Armament:
4 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
1 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal gun - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air gun in deck mount, 1919 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck forward
1 raised mount
Weight of broadside 245 lbs / 111 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
2nd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 24,010 shp / 17,912 Kw = 30.40 kts Trial Speed: 31.3
Range 4,800nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 319 tons
Complement:
106 - 138
Cost:
£0.298 million / $1.193 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 39 tons, 3.1 %
- Guns: 39 tons, 3.1 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.2 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 639 tons, 50.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 295 tons, 23.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 231 tons, 18.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 67 tons, 5.2 %
- Hull below water: 15 tons
- Hull void weights: 15 tons
- Hull above water: 7 tons
- On freeboard deck: 26 tons
- Above deck: 4 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
366 lbs / 166 Kg = 6.9 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.51
Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 9.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.26
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.425 / 0.437
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.93 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 14.76 ft / 4.50 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Forward deck: 35.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Average freeboard: 12.23 ft / 3.73 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 173.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125.2 %
Waterplane Area: 5,843 Square feet or 543 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 68 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 139 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.31
- Overall: 0.55
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Intended as a potential Fleet destroyer.
Excellent seakeeping from a raised forecastle.
Range to reach a base and return at fleet speeds
Good light gun armanent
AA gun
Heavy torpedo loadout
Enhanced Hydrophones for an ASW role
DC
A(B) TT(AA)TT (X) Y
DC
Range @ Speeds :
29.5kts(90%) : 605nm (20hrs)
25.5kts (50%) : 955nm (37hrs)
16kts : 3,400nm
With the fleet at 12-14knots,
14 or 16 knots allows reasonable range when working with the fleet from bases.
The ability to make a 36hr sweep of 900m allows
them to interdict substantial areas, acting as Coastal Torpedo boats for that purpose.
Misc wt :
6t Reserve Wt.
3.9FC
12t 2TT3 18"
8t DC
1t CO2 A/C
1t ASW Kite
5t Paravanes
15t Enhanced Hydrophone package
Here's a 3rd Version of that Destroyer.
Having answered that the opportunity cost of 21" torps and +9t const reserve was 43 tons,
I asked what the cost of +0.6knots was..that was more, +100tons.
Not sure 0.6knots (+0.54 trial speed) is worth that to me,
basically that's building 10xVersion 3 vs. 11xVersion 2 - 40x120+60x21"+3900 float vs. 44x120+66x21"+4026 float
Theoretically the Version 2 squadron would be more dangerous an adversary
...or I can shave 1000 tons elsewhere.
Of course if I build ~80 of these, then that's 80x V3 against 80 V2 + 2 cruisers.
Quote
Fleet Destroyer v3., Parthian Empire Fleet Destroyer laid down 1919
Displacement:
1,143 t light; 1,199 t standard; 1,385 t normal; 1,534 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(337.01 ft / 333.01 ft) x 31.99 ft x (11.32 / 12.16 ft)
(102.72 m / 101.50 m) x 9.75 m x (3.45 / 3.71 m)
Armament:
4 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
1 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal gun - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air gun in deck mount, 1919 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck forward
1 raised mount
Weight of broadside 245 lbs / 111 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
2nd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 26,621 shp / 19,859 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 4,800nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 335 tons
Complement:
113 - 147
Cost:
£0.327 million / $1.308 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 39 tons, 2.8 %
- Guns: 39 tons, 2.8 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.2 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 709 tons, 51.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 325 tons, 23.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 242 tons, 17.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 67 tons, 4.8 %
- Hull below water: 15 tons
- Hull void weights: 15 tons
- Hull above water: 7 tons
- On freeboard deck: 26 tons
- Above deck: 4 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
390 lbs / 177 Kg = 7.4 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.54
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 9.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.23
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.402 / 0.414
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.41 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 14.93 ft / 4.55 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Forward deck: 40.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 11.65 ft / 3.55 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 11.65 ft / 3.55 m, 11.65 ft / 3.55 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.65 ft / 3.55 m, 11.65 ft / 3.55 m
- Average freeboard: 12.49 ft / 3.81 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 175.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127.7 %
Waterplane Area: 6,209 Square feet or 577 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 67 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 30 lbs/sq ft or 144 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.29
- Overall: 0.55
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Intended as a potential Fleet destroyer.
Range to reach a base and return at fleet speeds
Good light gun armanent
AA gun
Heavy torpedo loadout
Enhanced Hydrophones for an ASW role
DC
A(B) TT(AA)TT (X) Y
DC
Range @ Speeds :
335t max bunker
2200nm at 10knots : 82t to "get home"
So 275t are available for offensive operations,
more if "home" is close.
90% power is 23,959shp, or 30.23kts.
50% power is 11,980shp, or 25.52knots
275t fuel is good for :
470nm @ 30.23knts = 15hrs.
797nm @ 25.5knots = 31.25hrs
2840nm @ 16knots = 177.5hrs / 7.4 days
With the fleet at 12-14knots,
14 or 16 knots allows reasonable range when working with the fleet from bases.
The ability to make a 36hr sweep of 900m allows
them to interdict substantial areas, acting as Coastal Torpedo boats for that purpose.
Misc wt :
15t Reserve Wt.
3.9FC
18t 2TT3 21"
8t DC
1t CO2 A/C
1t ASW Kite
5t Paravanes
15t Enhanced Hydrophone package
Does the game system see any distinction between the two so far as shells-to-sink are concerned?
Anyway, I think the additional tonnage is well-spent. More capable armament, the additional speed marginally increases its ability to be in the right place at the right time.
Floatation is about the same at 366 vs. 390,
In terms of shell damage, even if not criticaled, performance erodes as damage is taken,
so what sinks one, makes floating wreckage of the other.
The Oceanic DD at 1500 tons and nearly 600 floatation has sufficiently more to matter.
I'll have to think on it, as I am thinking in the 80 range, which would mean the difference can afford 2 of those escort cruisers
But I appreciate being prodded to explore these questions :)
And then the Coastal Destroyer concept...which I'm not happy with.
I've managed a 600tonner by severely restricting the armanent and performance.
This is a 800tonner that manages all the things I want,
but I am aware it's slightly larger than most of my existing DDs.
Based in Trinadad, Jamaica, Cape Horn, Sofala, Dar Es Salaam, Salahah, Colombo, Aceh, Palembang, Tarakan, and Balikipapan, they could effect a great number of important supply routes.... so I need them cheap. That may be more important than capable.
Intended as a coastal destroyer, operating from naval bases or even tenders in shallow waters, in coves, or up shallow rivers, hidden from the foe.
They are intended to interdict sea routes or force the foe to devote significant assets to guard them. They are not expected to operate in storms, but have sufficient seakeeping for bluewater operations.
They are partially coal-burning to allow them to operate from
cut off bases if necessary, saving potentially scarce fuel oil for
combat missions.
Trial Speed : 31.18kts
27.98 : Speed on just oil
21.333 : Speed on just oil-sprayed coal
Coal bunkerage : 70t
Range on Coal at 21kts : 380nm
Range on Coal at 10kts : 2,250nm
Max Bunker : 304t
23t : 528nm @ 10ts "go home"
202t : 1,056nm 48hrs @ 22knots
79t : 152nm @ 30kts = 5hours
Cobra, Parthian Coastal Destroyer laid down 1920
Displacement:
800 t light; 833 t standard; 1,002 t normal; 1,137 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(314.96 ft / 314.96 ft) x 28.54 ft x (10.17 / 11.08 ft)
(96.00 m / 96.00 m) x 8.70 m x (3.10 / 3.38 m)
Armament:
4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
1 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal gun - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Anti-air gun in deck mount, 1920 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck forward
Weight of broadside 112 lbs / 51 kg
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 19,073 shp / 14,229 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 1,610nm at 22.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 304 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
88 - 115
Cost:
£0.246 million / $0.985 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 19 tons, 1.9 %
- Guns: 19 tons, 1.9 %
Machinery: 504 tons, 50.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 233 tons, 23.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 201 tons, 20.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 45 tons, 4.5 %
- Hull below water: 6 tons
- Hull void weights: 5 tons
- Hull above water: 14 tons
- On freeboard deck: 18 tons
- Above deck: 2 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
292 lbs / 132 Kg = 13.1 x 3.5 " / 90 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.58
Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 9.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.13
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.384 / 0.399
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.03 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.75 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 14.60 ft / 4.45 m, 12.30 ft / 3.75 m
- Forward deck: 35.00 %, 12.30 ft / 3.75 m, 9.51 ft / 2.90 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 9.51 ft / 2.90 m, 9.51 ft / 2.90 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.51 ft / 2.90 m, 9.51 ft / 2.90 m
- Average freeboard: 10.74 ft / 3.27 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 170.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114.9 %
Waterplane Area: 5,172 Square feet or 480 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 69 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 124 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.04
- Overall: 0.54
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
QuoteAnd then the Coastal Destroyer concept...which I'm not happy with.
I've managed a 600tonner by severely restricting the armanent and performance.
This is a 800tonner that manages all the things I want,
but I am aware it's slightly larger than most of my existing DDs....
IMO, downgraded the old 499t Spear class DDs. They are 15 years old and can no longer be "serious" vs 1000t-1500t Fleet DDs. They will be fine as Coast Torpedo boats for another 8-10years.
Use your BP to build 1500t Fleet DDs.
;)
(In a few years downgraded 750t DDs...)
Quote from: Jefgte on September 18, 2021, 10:07:12 AM
IMO, downgraded the old 499t Spear class DDs. They are 15 years old and can no longer be "serious" vs 1000t-1500t Fleet DDs. They will be fine as Coast Torpedo boats for another 8-10years.
Use your BP to build 1500t Fleet DDs.
;)
(In a few years downgraded 750t DDs...)
I think you are likely correct.
Covert my older Destroyers with no ASW/AA to Torpedo Boats as I build the new 'Fleet Destroyers'.
Quote...Covert my older Destroyers with no ASW/AA to Torpedo Boats as I build the new 'Fleet Destroyers'.
Byzance had in 1918:
87 Torpedo Boats from 400t to 600t - 2630nm to 3500nm.
55 Fleet Destroyers from 750t (23) to 1000t - 1140t (32)- 3600nm to 6500nm.
After I ''ll built the new 1500t class, 750t DDs "ll be downgraded to Torpedo Boats.
-----------------
Parthians had in 1918:
48 (?) Torpedo Boats from 210t (32) to 499t (16) - 2050nm to 2650nm.
80 (?) Fleet Destroyers from 749t (68) to 1000t (12) - 3600nm to 5300nm.
Only the 32 Javilen class do they consider torpedo boats.
The old Spear and Atlatl classes were the first ASW conversions in 1916 to take advantage of the new hydrophones and give the Parthians an idea of what could be done.
Now that they've had a couple years experience, they can design a new vessel to meet the actual needs.
So moving the Spear and Atlatls to coastal service does look attractive.
Thanks.
If you want coastal boats you have to sacrifice speed. Speed is very expensive especially the smaller you get. Look at the Japanese Kawakaze class for why I found could be done for cheap coastal work. Also get rid of the heavy AA gun, it's useless in a ship this small and takes up valuable tonnage. How is the misc weight split up btw?
Quote from: Desertfox on September 18, 2021, 08:31:27 PM
If you want coastal boats you have to sacrifice speed. Speed is very expensive especially the smaller you get. Look at the Japanese Kawakaze class for why I found could be done for cheap coastal work. Also get rid of the heavy AA gun, it's useless in a ship this small and takes up valuable tonnage. How is the misc weight split up btw?
This was an attempt at vessel able to be more than just a torpedo boat, I wanted it to do the destroyer roles as well.
So there's tonnage for 6x21" and fire control, but also 1t for Air conditioning, and then paravanes, basic hydrophones, depth charges, & asw kite.
As for the AA, it's either 90mm or nothing right now. I've been thinking that in service the crews would complain about 90mm 10kg shells for one set of guns, and 90mm 11kg shells for the AA.
I have a design for a slower, less capable ship, at 600 tons.
But it is slower and more limited, with no expansion room.
Sea Hornet, Parthian Coastal Destroyer laid down 1919
Displacement:
599 t light; 624 t standard; 688 t normal; 739 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(282.92 ft / 278.87 ft) x 27.89 ft x (7.94 / 8.32 ft)
(86.23 m / 85.00 m) x 8.50 m x (2.42 / 2.54 m)
Armament:
3 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
3 x Single mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
2 raised mounts - superfiring
1 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal gun - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Anti-air gun in deck mount, 1919 Model
1 x Single mount on sides, forward deck aft
1 raised mount
Weight of broadside 90 lbs / 41 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
2nd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 15,235 shp / 11,365 Kw = 29.50 kts
Range 2,300nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 116 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
66 - 87
Cost:
£0.162 million / $0.647 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 17 tons, 2.5 %
- Guns: 17 tons, 2.5 %
Armour: 2 tons, 0.3 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 347 tons, 50.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 204 tons, 29.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 89 tons, 12.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 30 tons, 4.3 %
- Hull below water: 5 tons
- Hull void weights: 1 tons
- Hull above water: 1 tons
- On freeboard deck: 21 tons
- Above deck: 2 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
245 lbs / 111 Kg = 11.0 x 3.5 " / 90 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.40
Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 10.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.18
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a round stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.390 / 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.70 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 15.09 ft / 4.60 m, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
- Average freeboard: 11.40 ft / 3.47 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 171.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.3 %
Waterplane Area: 4,755 Square feet or 442 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 58 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 122 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.61
- Overall: 0.56
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Intended as a Coastal Destroyer,
operating out of Naval bases on local patrols and interdiction.
Guns are A(B) TT(Q-AA)TT (X) DC
The Q gun is on the top of the TDC tower, bracketed
by the two triple tubes.
The X gun is superimposed to be clear of the fan tail.
The choice of mixing 10kg 90mm rounds and 11kg AA 90mm rounds will prove a poor one.
To allow operations if cut off from oil supplies, coal (or wood) power is provided for 1/4 of the boilers, normally sprayed with oil. (25% * 90%=23)
For this, they need to be able to dash out at a high
cruise speed, have reserve for a full power attack run, and return to base.
For that, a 24 hour run at 20 knots (35t), and a 1 hour run at 30knots (8t) is specified. This gives a total of 43t of fuel needed. This allows the run to be made on purely oil fuel. Simple transit between bases is expected at 2200nm at 14kts, which takes 64t, but requires use of the mixed firing.
Misc Wt.
1t - Resv
1.5t - FC
18t - 2x T3 21" torpedoes
3t - Depth charges
5t - Basic Hydrophones
QuoteMachinery: 347 tons, 50.4 %
Reduce to 50% & increase Miscellaneous weights (reserve weights)
The tonnage commitment for sufficient Coastal Destroyers grows quite large.
I only have the same BP as the other players...less if you consider some have expanded.
But I built a nation that sprawls across the globe.
So I decided to go back to a Torpedo Boat idea and redesign it to serve as an MTB leader.
That way the MTBs are more effective, but I don't have to pay for full squadrons of 800t destroyers tied to bases.
These don't do the full destroyer mission, but give me something to consider.
They have a yet - undesigned - 57mm AA gun. Worse case it's a basic refit to add after designed.
These are given partial 'coal' firing to allow wood/coal/mercantile sources to be used when bases are cut off.
With a max trial speed of 32.35knots, they can make a respectable sprint run.
Pesh-Kabz, Parthian Torpedo Boat Leader laid down 1917 (Engine 1920)
Displacement:
449 t light; 464 t standard; 532 t normal; 587 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(279.06 ft / 275.59 ft) x 22.97 ft x (7.55 / 8.07 ft)
(85.06 m / 84.00 m) x 7.00 m x (2.30 / 2.46 m)
Armament:
2 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 120 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
1 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 57.0 cal gun - 6.06lbs / 2.75kg shells, 200 per gun
Anti-air gun in deck mount, 1917 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
1 raised mount
4 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1899 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides forward
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 51 lbs / 23 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.12" / 3 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 1 shaft, 13,112 shp / 9,781 Kw = 29.75 kts Trial Speed: 32.35
Range 1,052nm at 21.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 123 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
55 - 72
Cost:
£0.102 million / $0.410 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 10 tons, 1.9 %
- Guns: 10 tons, 1.9 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.1 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 271 tons, 50.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 139 tons, 26.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 83 tons, 15.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 29 tons, 5.4 %
- On freeboard deck: 28 tons
- Above deck: 1 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
151 lbs / 68 Kg = 6.8 x 3.5 " / 90 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 10.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.16
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.86
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a round stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.390 / 0.402
Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 12.96 ft / 3.95 m, 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
- Forward deck: 21.00 %, 10.66 ft / 3.25 m, 8.04 ft / 2.45 m
- Aft deck: 44.00 %, 8.04 ft / 2.45 m, 8.04 ft / 2.45 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 8.04 ft / 2.45 m, 8.04 ft / 2.45 m
- Average freeboard: 9.02 ft / 2.75 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 169.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 107.2 %
Waterplane Area: 3,658 Square feet or 340 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 54 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 21 lbs/sq ft or 103 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.00
- Overall: 0.54
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Trial Speed 31.64
This is meant as a Parthian Torpedo Boat Leader.
This will serve as a dedicate lead vessel for MTBs,
providing the long range navigation and radio facilities they lack.
Expected to be lead 4-8 MTBs
Seakeeping is minimal, as they expect choose when they go to sea.
Power : 29.75kts @ 13,112shp all max Trial :
27.75kts : 9834shp : 75% oil-fired max Trial :
26.75kts : 8,442shp : 64% oil fired
21kts : 3278shp : 25% : 25% oil sprayed
21kts : 3278shp : 25% : 90% coal-oil sprayed 10%
10kts : 256shp : 2% - either
Fuel : 123 tons
94.7t : Oil
28.3t : Oil-sprayed coal (10/90)
Range :
380nm, 14hrs at 26.75kts, oil fired.
780nm, 37hrs at 21kts, oil fired
1250nm @ 10knts : oil-sprayed coal.
10 t : Leader Facilities
8t : 2TT3 Torpedoes 21"
1t : FC : Range finders, Torpedo Direction Center.
Ok,
So I'm planning on laying down the escort cruiser and the 1143t fleet destroyer in 1919.0.
I also want to reconstruct the Mus-Sag Torpedo Boat carriers.
At 23 years old, they need work or scrapping.
It's tempting to reconstruct them as ...Torpedo boat carriers. The utility of launching 48 MTBs seems high.
But...progress.
The basic hull is tubby, and without centerline weapons.
They were originally designed with their weapons in casements along the sides, and interior space for the torpedo boats, workshops and crew.
Based on waterplane, they can carry 14 aircraft
While applying the new Aviation Ship rules, I found we did not follow though on trimming the air groups on reconstructions. Should we?MathBaseline cost of Refurbishment : $1.4988
7.494*0.2
The value of installing turbogenerators to allow Turbine use was unclear, so upgrading the reciprocating from simple to complex seemed a better choice. However, it turns out Turbogenerators are cheaper.
Old Engine : 2,196
Old Bunker : 1,467
Before adding superstructure,
At 23.25 knots,seakeeping is 1.51, while
which can be achieved at 25,484 shp.
With the new superstructure, 2.00 is achieved, which may
be excessive seakeeping.
As the vessel is expected to operate in close support to the core of the fleet, this is viewed as acceptable speed.
The there is room to push the vessel to 24 or even 25 knots, for more expense and unclear value.
With Turbo-electric generators linked to turbines, that takes
995 tons of turbines, and 249t of turbogenerators.
That would cost 0.995+.249BP and (0.995*2 + 0.249) = $2.239
Fuel is converted from coal to oil.
1,454/2000= 0.727
Original Hull weight : 3,566
A superstructure is added ...which
changes nothing. Odd.
180mm guns are replaced,
60mm guns are removed and
90mm guns added.
This adds 89+152t = 244t.
Cost : 0.244 BP, $0.288
Airgroup :
Waterplane Area : 1696
Seaplane Carrier : /120
= 14.33
Twin Engine Seaplanes = 110 each
14x 110 = 1540t (see below)
Functional Miscellaneous Wt249t - Turbogenerator (paid above)
140t - Torpedo Nets
24t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
8t - CO2 compressor AC
14*110 = 1540t Airgroup & Supplies, splite Above/below water
Cost : BP1.737 + $1.737
Sub totals
0.0 + $1.8735
1.224 + $2.239
0 + $0.727
0.244 + $0.488
1.737 + $1.737
total3.29+ $7.23
Removed Equipment
12 x 60L50 QF
8x 180L40 BL
8 x TB-IV ( to be deployed somewhere)
Time : 7.5 months * .25 = 2 months + (3.29BP/2) 1.65 months = 3.65 months total.
Quote
Mus-sag, Parthian Torpedo Boat Carrier R1919 laid down 1894 (Engine 1919)
Displacement:
7,470 t light; 7,830 t standard; 8,638 t normal; 9,285 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(464.54 ft / 459.32 ft) x 52.49 ft x (19.69 / 20.92 ft)
(141.59 m / 140.00 m) x 16.00 m x (6.00 / 6.38 m)
Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 44.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1911 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,693 lbs / 768 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 305.12 ft / 93.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 154.17 ft / 46.99 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 301.84 ft / 92.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 0.98" / 25 mm
Forecastle: 0.79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0.79" / 20 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.97" / 50 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 25,484 shp / 19,011 Kw = 23.25 kts
Range 6,900nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,454 tons
Complement:
447 - 582
Cost:
£0.463 million / $1.852 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 241 tons, 2.8 %
- Guns: 241 tons, 2.8 %
Armour: 912 tons, 10.6 %
- Belts: 539 tons, 6.2 %
- Armament: 33 tons, 0.4 %
- Armour Deck: 322 tons, 3.7 %
- Conning Tower: 18 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 905 tons, 10.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,517 tons, 40.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,169 tons, 13.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,895 tons, 21.9 %
- Hull below water: 1,118 tons
- Hull above water: 728 tons
- Above deck: 49 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
19,611 lbs / 8,895 Kg = 110.2 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 13.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low forecastle, low quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.637 / 0.644
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.75 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 25
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 24.57 ft / 7.49 m, 24.57 ft / 7.49 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 16.57 ft / 5.05 m, 16.57 ft / 5.05 m
- Average freeboard: 26.59 ft / 8.11 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 67.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 229.6 %
Waterplane Area: 18,251 Square feet or 1,696 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 162 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 95 lbs/sq ft or 466 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 5.62
- Overall: 1.12
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
I could see one as a test-bed, but four conversions that're a quarter-century old, I'm not sure about.
The scrap value of these ships and the refurb costs would probably add up to ~2/3 or more of the BP cost of a similar-sized new-build.
But setting that aside, the end-product is still a useful vessel.
I think you have a point.
I don't expect to get another 25 year out of them.
So it's not a greatly efficient concept in some ways.
I could try a version with the old engines.
The original has close to 1800 Misc wt dedicated to the Torpedo boats, extra fuel, munitions, berthing-
again why it's a candidate for conversion.
....
but I think even novice aviators could forsee the issues with heavy coal smoke
around your air ops.
So, how do embers from a stack mix with doped canvas covered wooden planes?
...with oil and gas ?
Costwise, I'm BP limited, but with $.
'Storyline' says I need operational experience with aircraft
at sea, and so I'm looking at converting these to both
serve as a stopgap, and also get 'storyline' experience.
That way no one will think my angled-deck supercarrier in 1920.0 is odd.
I'm thinking of converting 2-4 to the Seaplane carriers,
and perhaps using 1 as a Airplane carrier test bed,
and another as a rebuilt TBC after I get 1912 DD tech. That can use the old engines.
Basically that will cost me ~19 BP / $38 but give me 4 scouting platforms - 2 main fleet, 1 Pacific, 1 Atlantic,
plus an experimental carrier.
Building new, I'd be at 45BP / $45 for the same vessels. They would last longer.
I do not have a long term build plan, this turn I have 7 BP spare,
I am guessing I can budget that per turn going forward.
So at that rate I could convert all Six in 3 HY, and have all in service 1920.5
or build 6 new in...7 HY, and have all in service in 1922.5
1894...too old => scrap
Byzance rebuild 10 - 15 yo ships not 25 yo ship.
There's nothing odd about a 1920 supercarrier as you will soon see.
I think there's sense in using one as your experimental CV test-bed, and maybe a couple as stop-gap CVS.
I'd tend to agree. Take one with the original engines and make it your carrier test bed. Add in say 100t of 'trunking' to move the funnels to the side and able to be swiveled down so the embers don't become a problem for your planes.
Quote from: Jefgte on October 04, 2021, 12:36:38 AM
1894...too old => scrap
Byzance rebuild 10 - 15 yo ships not 25 yo ship.
Practically speaking, there is some merit to that.
The metallurgy and construction ability of the 1894 period was substantially different.
Those considerations....and budget...are leading me to reconsider rebuilding the
Bucephalus class.
However, Reconstruction/Refurbishment are deliberately designed to replace worn things and extend their service life.
Considering ships like
Schliesen (1908-1945),
General Belgrano (1934-1982) and Goeben (1911-1950/73) were in service for much longer years, it's doable.
I think somewhere there is a 25 (20?) year life written down for ships.
I would think Reconstruction / Refurbishment would add another 10-12 years to that, but no more.
That would put the rebuilt vessels in the realm of the ships above.
I did find one list of service life by type.
With my preference for complicating things, I would like to have ship usable life by Archtype.
There's a Royal Navy list on maintenance costs I found in a post while researching carrier costs.
It also has "Type Lifes"
BBs - 26yrs
Cruisers - 23.5yrs
Carriers - 20 years
DD - 22
Sub - 14 - on subs I had long ago come across '12' as their useful life.
Quite simply, on a surface warship, having minor equipment failures, or sprung seams, can be machinery in need of repair or leaks.
For subs, it may mean not returning to the surface...so 'safe' sub life was shorter.
Worse, subs took alot of expensive well trained engineers, and specialty parts, so costs were high. Not to mention torpedoes were actually pricey.
Factors like that are why the French considered a submarine-focused fleet...and decided not to.
Same source allowed me to estimate relative maintenance costs by archtype
BB : 100%
CV + Airgroup : 300%
C : 200%
DD : 250%
SS : 450%
Quote from: TacCovert4 on October 04, 2021, 07:34:25 AM
I'd tend to agree. Take one with the original engines and make it your carrier test bed. Add in say 100t of 'trunking' to move the funnels to the side and able to be swiveled down so the embers don't become a problem for your planes.
I'm torn on that.
On the one hand you have ships like
Eagle which only made 24knots, or
Langley at 15.5, or even the purpose built
Hermes at 25kts.
Those lightweight biplanes with their tiny wing loadings didn't really need much speed.
So I could get by with the old 19knot engines.....
but ancient coal fired simple reciprocating...is just so dated they scream for replacement, not refurbishment.
And I really think the coal smoke and embers would be recognized as a flight/fire hazard even for an experimental carrier.
So I'll probably spring for the new engine. The base hull can make 27kts with 1.0 seakeeping, but 25 is the limit for "good seaboat".
That's also right in the range of those early carriers, so either the 23.25 of the seaplane or 25 seems appropriate for that
experimental carrier.
Makes sense.
Vis a Vis the 20-25 year lifespan. This was baked in to a lot of countries via their budgeting. The RN in particular liked to note a 20 year lifespan for ships in order to ensure that they'd have a replacement/supplementary ship being budgeted for in a reasonable amount of time.
It's certainly reasonable to assume the refurb will add to the lifespan. It's also easier to extend the life of non-frontline warships, such as an experimental carrier. Not as much work needed to make it useful, not as much need to make it competitive.
Agreed. Absent a complete sea change in technology that wholly outdates the concept behind the ship, you can get at least 30 if not 40 years out of a hull. Look at modern vessels for one. And look at the BBs/BCs for another, you had 35 year old battleships still kicking around in 1945 and still able to provide adequate service if no longer perfectly suited to true front-line duties. 30 year old BBs and BCs were still front-line combatants in 1945 though.
Another 1894 ship I am considering refurbishing is the old
Bucephalus class.
Named for famous warhorses, it was the first Parthian Armored Cruiser.
I built new guns for it in 1911-1912...but didn't do the 1913 refurb planned.
Age is a consideration, and unlike the seaplane carriers, this would be a combatant.
Sometimes having the ship there is more important than having the best ship there.
A refurbished vessel can kill protected cruisers, keep away from most larger Byzantine vessels in service.
Anyhow, at 4 BP/Each, the concept is attractive to me,
but curious if others think it's just a waste.
While it can not beat a new 9000 ton vessel...
Basically, for 4BP, the ship can likely defeat any surface ship that costs 4...or 6 BP new.
Refurbishing all 4 would take 16 BP and $40 - not cheap, and they actually have significant scrap value.
But if I was going to build new, it would likely be one of my 12-13,000ton 'Light Armored Cruiser' designs, which are more capable.
But 4 of those would cost 52 BP and $52.
Cost :
Refurbishment : 20% 8.993 = $1.7986
Guns : 794t : 0.794 BP $1.588
Engine : 2403t : 2.403 BP $4.806
Bunker : 2186t : $1.093
Functional Misc Wt : 860t : 0.86 BP $0.86
Total : 4.057 BP , $10.15
Time : 8.8+9=17.8 *.25 = 4.456 +2= 6.456mo
Quote
Buchephalus R1920, Parthia Armored Cruiser laid down 1894 (Engine 1920)
Displacement:
8,824 t light; 9,427 t standard; 10,708 t normal; 11,732 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(488.85 ft / 482.28 ft) x 59.06 ft x (24.28 / 26.10 ft)
(149.00 m / 147.00 m) x 18.00 m x (7.40 / 7.95 m)
Armament:
4 - 9.06" / 230 mm 44.0 cal guns - 385.81lbs / 175.00kg shells, 138 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1899 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1899 Model
12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1904 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,457 lbs / 1,568 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 356.89 ft / 108.78 m 10.47 ft / 3.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 356.89 ft / 108.78 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 114 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.51" / 140 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
2nd: 3.94" / 100 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.18" / 30 mm
Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm Quarter deck: 1.18" / 30 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 3.94" / 100 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 58,595 shp / 43,712 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 7,400nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,305 tons
Complement:
526 - 684
Cost:
£0.812 million / $3.249 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 618 tons, 5.8 %
- Guns: 618 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 2,033 tons, 19.0 %
- Belts: 1,194 tons, 11.2 %
- Armament: 363 tons, 3.4 %
- Armour Deck: 435 tons, 4.1 %
- Conning Tower: 41 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,049 tons, 19.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,164 tons, 29.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,884 tons, 17.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 960 tons, 9.0 %
- Hull below water: 696 tons
- Hull void weights: 100 tons
- On freeboard deck: 77 tons
- Above deck: 87 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12,607 lbs / 5,719 Kg = 34.0 x 9.1 " / 230 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 13.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.99
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.542 / 0.552
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.17 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.96 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 13.00 %, 24.57 ft / 7.49 m, 21.95 ft / 6.69 m
- Forward deck: 27.00 %, 21.95 ft / 6.69 m, 21.95 ft / 6.69 m
- Aft deck: 47.00 %, 13.75 ft / 4.19 m, 13.75 ft / 4.19 m
- Quarter deck: 13.00 %, 13.75 ft / 4.19 m, 13.75 ft / 4.19 m
- Average freeboard: 17.16 ft / 5.23 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.6 %
Waterplane Area: 19,728 Square feet or 1,833 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 110 lbs/sq ft or 538 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.85
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Considered for 1920 Refurbishment.
Planned in 1913, it kept being delayed.
However the 230L44 guns developed then are still
available.
T2 240L40 : 200t
T2 230L44 : 200t
Old Engines : 3114
Old Bunker : 2189
Old Main Mag : 118g
Armanent
New guns : 413t w armor. Barbette armor unchanged.
New main mag : 118g
New 2nd guns : 301t
- adding a new set of deck level casements
in superstructure
80t Old casement armor retained, +41t new armor for new deck-level casements
New 3rd guns 90AA : 39t
Engines
New Turbines : 28kts : 2403t + 602 turbogen
New bunker 7000nm @ 16kts : 2186ts
Trim : unchanged.
Misc Wt :
50t Reserve wt
62t FC
25t LR Radio
9t CO2 Compressor AC
18t 2TT3 21" amidships
50t 2x Kite Balloon
36t 2 sets torpedo reloads
147 Torpedo Nets
513 Turbogenerators
So this refurbishment costs about the same as the last one.
Again, the Parthians are basically looking at this as a 'cost' of ~4.5BP,
and ship that can operate in support of more modern ones, or fill a provincial station.
I'd rather replace it with one of the CDBBs I've put up from time to time,
but those cost 16-19BP.... I may still build one, but I don't see even starting it for several years,
so it won't actually be in service until the mid1920s.
I want something to plug that gap.
Apparently the BP I spent on Land Points and Deployment points is not useful in naval combat :)
The old corned powder 345L35 guns hurl a hefty shell, at miserably low velocity.
In 1911 the Parthians had completed 2 generations of gun research. Newer weapons could withstand much higher internal pressures and did not belch clouds of smoke. designed a new gun that could be used in the Rohk class and also upgrade the Tortoise class's guns. The improved velocity meant the 300L41.5 was a better penetrator than the preceeding guns.
345L35 Twin : 313t
300L41.5 : 262t
refurb :
old main magazine : 265 / 181
old engine : 1878
old bunker : 1735
Refurbishment base cost : 2.2798
Armanent and MachineryNew Main Guns : 524
New Secondary Guns : 302
New AA Guns : 78
New Sentry MGs : 1
New Engine : 774
----
1.679bp, $3.358
New Bunker : 1728
-----
1728/2000 = $0.864
New Turret Armor : 217
New AA shields : 1
Replace Armor decks with 35mm Upper deck, 80mm main armor deck : 1.696
----
1.914 , $1.914
Functional Misc Wt : 750t
0.750 BP, $0.750
Total : 4.343 BP, $ 9.166
92t - FC
25t - LR Radio
25t - Hulesmeyer device
25t - War Tuba
25t - Additional Night fighting
50t - 2x Kite Balloons
125t - Flag Bridge
11t - CO2 compressor AC
25t - Additional Fire Suppression
5t - Paravanes
108t - Torpedo Nets
194t - TurboGenerators
25t - Additional Pumps
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
Quote
Tortoise, Parthia Predreadnaught laid down 1897 (Engine 1920)
Displacement:
11,371 t light; 12,129 t standard; 13,090 t normal; 13,858 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(360.89 ft / 354.33 ft) x 85.30 ft x (24.61 / 25.80 ft)
(110.00 m / 108.00 m) x 26.00 m x (7.50 / 7.87 m)
Armament:
4 - 11.81" / 300 mm 41.5 cal guns - 870.83lbs / 395.00kg shells, 137 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1889 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 7.09" / 180 mm 44.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 145 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1911 Model
10 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck centre
2 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
12 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1911 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1897 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,025 lbs / 2,733 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 212.60 ft / 64.80 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 3.94" / 100 mm 141.70 ft / 43.19 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Upper: 8.27" / 210 mm 212.60 ft / 64.80 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.8" / 325 mm 6.50" / 165 mm 12.6" / 320 mm
2nd: 8.27" / 210 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 4.53" / 115 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 3.15" / 80 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 12.60" / 320 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 22,133 shp / 16,511 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 6,100nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,728 tons
Complement:
611 - 795
Cost:
£0.907 million / $3.626 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 912 tons, 7.0 %
- Guns: 912 tons, 7.0 %
Armour: 4,956 tons, 37.9 %
- Belts: 2,184 tons, 16.7 %
- Armament: 925 tons, 7.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,696 tons, 13.0 %
- Conning Tower: 151 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 774 tons, 5.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,980 tons, 30.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,718 tons, 13.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 750 tons, 5.7 %
- Hull below water: 342 tons
- Hull above water: 41 tons
- On freeboard deck: 250 tons
- Above deck: 117 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,139 lbs / 11,857 Kg = 31.7 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 4.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.49
Metacentric height 7.8 ft / 2.4 m
Roll period: 12.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.22
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.616 / 0.622
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.15 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.82 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 17.95 ft / 5.47 m, 16.31 ft / 4.97 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 16.31 ft / 4.97 m, 14.67 ft / 4.47 m
- Aft deck: 40.00 %, 14.67 ft / 4.47 m, 14.67 ft / 4.47 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 14.67 ft / 4.47 m, 16.31 ft / 4.97 m
- Average freeboard: 15.45 ft / 4.71 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 52.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 104.5 %
Waterplane Area: 22,438 Square feet or 2,085 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 148 lbs/sq ft or 723 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 3.17
- Overall: 1.09
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
The cruiser...well, yeah, it would be a handful for any light cruiser, and many of those don't do more than 28 knots at this time. I wonder if you'd be able to replace the twin 9" with triple 165s and whether that might be effective - would give a large, uniform anti-cruiser battery.
The PD is okay.
Think you're looking at the same basic question the rest of us are - where would you deploy these, what would they be facing? If it's Jef's various reconstructions or NPC colonial hardware, it might be good value for money.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on October 08, 2021, 06:04:55 AM
The cruiser...well, yeah, it would be a handful for any light cruiser, and many of those don't do more than 28 knots at this time. I wonder if you'd be able to replace the twin 9" with triple 165s and whether that might be effective - would give a large, uniform anti-cruiser battery.
I hadn't considered that all.
I have the time.
... looks like I could actually fit a 4G 165mm.
The downside is with 165mm I need to be under ~11km to start punching holes in the belt of small cruisers - most folks run 75-100mm belts.
But Byzantine cruisers have those big 191mm guns, which could start hurting my ship at roughly the same range.
So I'd rather be able to hurt them from farther out.
While the 230mm can punch a hole out to...not sure, looks like 16-18km.
4 guns on a twin is not ideal. I would hope that the 165mm could be tasked with creating the range ladder for the 12-16.5km shots, allowing the 230
to fire for effect.
Fire Control note : In Seekrieg There's "Local RF" vs "Top Spot" / "DCT" for various fire control systems. They change in effectiveness over time.
So if you can't spot, you get less effective fire control. So enough guns to spot = good.
There's also a mild penalty for multiple ships at the same target - that's what I apply for mixed main battery ships.
But the result should be better than no spotting bonus.
I figure it's fair to "peek" at ships that have been in service for 2-3 years.
So Jeftge's 1913 C5 class's 27knots would be roughly known. It might be 28, probably not 26...
So 28knots puts me in the right speed range, but no great superiority/inferiority.
Quote
The PD is okay.
Think you're looking at the same basic question the rest of us are - where would you deploy these, what would they be facing? If it's Jef's various reconstructions or NPC colonial hardware, it might be good value for money.
Jefgte has specifically come up with some vessels that lessen the effectiveness of
Tortoise and
Rohk (War Chariot) but they are few. The 9000tonner Fox was showing
off isn't built, and Parthia knows nothing about... but had sufficiently less armor that the two vessels may be vulnerable at about the same range. The NPCs, this would be a tough nut
and so good storyline reason for them not to "take advantage of Parthia being occupied elsewhere".
The primary use is expected to be to relieve 'First Line' units in the rear areas. So hopefully what they would face would be units the foe is willing to risk far from repair bases.
The 300mm may not hit much, but can penetrate smaller cruisers out to the horizon 18km, and larger ones under ~14km, and a hit may be all it takes. Further, the splinter
size is enough for a upperhull hit to penetrate the armored decks and still wreck engines.
I need to check the ranges on the 180mm, but at max 22deg on casement, I think they should be able to serve to create the range ladder out to 18km,
so the 300mm could simply fire for effect. Not perfect but should help spotting in most cases.
Alternately they may be tied to close defense of an amphibious force
or, with the speed boosted to Parthian-standard 20knots, they could attach to the rear of the battleline late in a war,
While they don't have a TDS, the much much smaller engine means they have alot of internal room to seal off compartments for damage control/counterflooding,
so an 11,000 ton vessel that takes up to 4 torpedoes :)
Could the updated CAs, with a different approach to armament, fill the niche of these new escort cruisers you plan for? The speed is the same, they're better protected. The hulls are larger, which makes them a bigger target for enemy torpedo craft but the actual material cost to achieve the outcome is about the same.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on October 09, 2021, 10:31:13 AM
Could the updated CAs, with a different approach to armament, fill the niche of these new escort cruisers you plan for? The speed is the same, they're better protected. The hulls are larger, which makes them a bigger target for enemy torpedo craft but the actual material cost to achieve the outcome is about the same.
Actually they could fit in that Sentry/Intermediate screen.
I need to tinker with the Misc Wt, to give them the right sensors, but that could really help plug that Hull #s gap.
Hmm, might be worth setting aside some weight for batteries so they can creep and listen - I'm looking at Hydrophones ability to not just pick up subs, but also screw noises at distance,
Nice.
Technically I'll probably call them "Light Armored Cruisers".
I'm thinking the Armored Cruiser lineage will split into "LAC" and "AC", while cruisers split into 'Frigates' (3000t, 0.75 comp) and 'Cruisers (6000t, 0.9).
Cruiser nomenclature is a bit of a problem for me, too, given that mine vary from 2,000 tonnes and 100mm guns to 39,000 tonnes and 400mm guns.
The "battle cruisers" the Parthians were considering "Heavy Armored Cruisers", but as they get more like really expensive fast dreadnoughts they may change nomenclature.
The Byzantines have long had a pair, which partially motivated Stormbringer as something that can back the scouting line against the Byzantine big ships,
but at 26knots, the Parthians are still considering those just dreadnaughts, as they still have the full 10 heavy guns.
Since I had an "Armored Frigate" on the books, that seemed a reasonable choice for small cruisers.
I am tempted to call the 1500ton DDs sloops or corvettes.
QuoteNice.
Technically I'll probably call them "Light Armored Cruisers".
I'm thinking the Armored Cruiser lineage will split into "LAC" and "AC", while cruisers split into 'Frigates' (3000t, 0.75 comp) and 'Cruisers (6000t, 0.9).
After reading Kaiser, I do not anticipate any changes in my "Construction Plan".
For the future, I am quite seduced by the "Panzerschiff" type.
DD: 6x120
Spahkreuzer: 6x140 - 6x152
SC: 6x191
Heavy SC: 6x234 - 6x254
Pocket BC: 6x305 - 6x343
BC: 6x381 - 6x406
This is what I think today.
;)
It would be intriguing to design to account for those.
I am bemused by some of your conversions and particularly the CBB7 class.
As you may recall, quite some time ago I posted some CBB designs of my own,
which may get updated and built...or not.
I really understimated how many Land and Deployment points
my vague plans were going to require, on top of 4 dreadnaughts,
all my BP went away...
I have tried Rocky's suggestion.
Trying to cram the additional tonnage into the ship required cutting somewhere,
and so I tried reducing the fuel loading.
That was very successful, but since I was adding topweight and removing underwater weight,
I lost seakeeping.
By the refurb rules, I can alter the waterline, but not reshape my bow- that's under recon. Shame because that fixed it.
And Recon costs more $ and BP
Ultimately, the way to make it all work cost me 1/4 knot.
I really was tickled that It made 28 knots, so I'm disappointed it's down at 27.75.
Practically it's still pretty good, and now more useful to the fleet as a whole.
one thing - the DC's on the fantail. I fully expect that they are useless, they can be basic refitted off once they've tried the concept.
Buchephalus R1920v2, Parthia Light Armored Cruiser laid down 1894 (Engine 1920)
Displacement:
8,890 t light; 9,494 t standard; 10,708 t normal; 11,679 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(488.85 ft / 482.28 ft) x 59.06 ft x (24.28 / 26.00 ft)
(149.00 m / 147.00 m) x 18.00 m x (7.40 / 7.93 m)
Armament:
4 - 9.06" / 230 mm 44.0 cal guns - 385.81lbs / 175.00kg shells, 138 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1911 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1911 Model
12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,457 lbs / 1,568 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 356.89 ft / 108.78 m 10.47 ft / 3.19 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 356.89 ft / 108.78 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 114 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.51" / 140 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
2nd: 3.94" / 100 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.18" / 30 mm
Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm Quarter deck: 1.18" / 30 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 3.94" / 100 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 56,475 shp / 42,130 Kw = 27.75 kts
Range 7,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,186 tons
Complement:
526 - 684
Cost:
£0.804 million / $3.217 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 618 tons, 5.8 %
- Guns: 618 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 2,037 tons, 19.0 %
- Belts: 1,197 tons, 11.2 %
- Armament: 363 tons, 3.4 %
- Armour Deck: 435 tons, 4.1 %
- Conning Tower: 41 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,975 tons, 18.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,155 tons, 29.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,818 tons, 17.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,106 tons, 10.3 %
- Hull below water: 756 tons
- Hull void weights: 50 tons
- Hull above water: 25 tons
- On freeboard deck: 165 tons
- Above deck: 110 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12,641 lbs / 5,734 Kg = 34.1 x 9.1 " / 230 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 13.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.542 / 0.552
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.17 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.96 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 13.00 %, 24.57 ft / 7.49 m, 21.95 ft / 6.69 m
- Forward deck: 27.00 %, 21.95 ft / 6.69 m, 21.95 ft / 6.69 m
- Aft deck: 47.00 %, 13.75 ft / 4.19 m, 13.75 ft / 4.19 m
- Quarter deck: 13.00 %, 13.75 ft / 4.19 m, 13.75 ft / 4.19 m
- Average freeboard: 17.16 ft / 5.23 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.6 %
Waterplane Area: 19,728 Square feet or 1,833 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 110 lbs/sq ft or 537 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.84
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Considered for 1920 Refurbishment.
Planned in 1913, it kept being delayed.
However the 230L44 guns developed then are still
available.
T2 240L40 : 200t
T2 230L44 : 200t
Old Engines : 3114
Old Bunker : 2189
Old Main Mag : 118g
Armanent
New guns : 413t w armor. Barbette armor unchanged.
New main mag : 118g
New 2nd guns : 301t
- adding a new set of deck level casements
in superstructure
80t Old casement armor retained, +41t new armor for new deck-level casements
New 3rd guns 90AA : 39t
Engines
New Turbines : 28kts : 2403t + 602 turbogen
New bunker 7000nm @ 16kts : 2186ts
Trim : unchanged.
Cost :
Refurbishment : 20% 8.993 = $1.7986
Guns : 794t : 0.794 BP $1.588
Engine : 1975t : 1.975 BP $3.95
Bunker : 2186t : $1.093
Functional Misc Wt : 1056t : 1.056 BP $1.056
Total : 3.825 BP , $9.4856
Time : 8.8+9=17.8 *.25 = 4.456 +2= 6.456mo
Misc Wt :
50t Reserve wt
AD:
62t FC
25t LR Radio
23t 30m Cage Mast
OD:
25t Hulesmeyer
25t War Tuba
25t Night Fighting
9t CO2 Compressor AC
18t 2TT3 21" amidships
50t 2x Kite Balloon
13t Depth charged on fantail
HABW
25t Additional Fire Suppression
HBW
15t - Bow Hydrophones
15t - Amidships Hydrophones
24t - Batteries for silent running
25t - improved pumps
36t 2 sets torpedo reloads
147 Torpedo Nets
494 Turbogenerators
Ok, now that we've located the missing Conversion efficiency factor
I had to go recalculate the little carriers airgroup.
I still want to fit twin engined, but now can field 10 not 14.
I'm ok with that.
It adds 110 weight, or +0.11BP and +$0.11
Except I just realized I'm doing it wrong.
Airgroups count as armament, not functional Misc weight... so the cost is higher.
it is stated under 7a, but should probably be more prominent.
Argh.
New costs...
1919 Refurbishment of the 1894 Mus-Sag Class.
Baseline cost of Refurbishment : $1.4988
Engines :
0.905 BP , $ 1.810
Fuell
1,454/2000= $0.727
Guns
Cost : 0.244 BP, $0.288
Airgroup :
Cost : 1.65BP, $3.3
Functional Miscellaneous Wt
249t - Turbogenerator (paid above)
140t - Torpedo Nets
24t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
8t - CO2 compressor AC
Cost : 0.446 + $0.446
Totals
BP : 0.905+0.244+1.65+0.446 = 3.245 = 3.25 BP
$ : 1.4988 + 1.810 + 0.727+ 0.288 + 3.3 +0.446 = 10.2068 = $10.21
quote]
Mus-sag, Parthian Seaplane Carrier R1919 laid down 1894 (Engine 1919)
Displacement:
7,470 t light; 7,830 t standard; 8,638 t normal; 9,285 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(464.54 ft / 459.32 ft) x 52.49 ft x (19.69 / 20.92 ft)
(141.59 m / 140.00 m) x 16.00 m x (6.00 / 6.38 m)
Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 44.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1911 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,693 lbs / 768 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 305.12 ft / 93.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 154.17 ft / 46.99 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 301.84 ft / 92.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 0.98" / 25 mm
Forecastle: 0.79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0.79" / 20 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.97" / 50 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 25,484 shp / 19,011 Kw = 23.25 kts
Range 6,900nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,454 tons
Complement:
447 - 582
Cost:
£0.463 million / $1.852 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 241 tons, 2.8 %
- Guns: 241 tons, 2.8 %
Armour: 912 tons, 10.6 %
- Belts: 539 tons, 6.2 %
- Armament: 33 tons, 0.4 %
- Armour Deck: 322 tons, 3.7 %
- Conning Tower: 18 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 905 tons, 10.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,316 tons, 38.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,169 tons, 13.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2,096 tons, 24.3 %
- Hull below water: 1,214 tons
- Hull above water: 833 tons
- Above deck: 49 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
19,008 lbs / 8,622 Kg = 106.8 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 13.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low forecastle, low quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.637 / 0.644
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.75 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 25
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 24.57 ft / 7.49 m, 24.57 ft / 7.49 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 16.57 ft / 5.05 m, 16.57 ft / 5.05 m
- Average freeboard: 26.59 ft / 8.11 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 229.6 %
Waterplane Area: 18,251 Square feet or 1,696 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 156 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 90 lbs/sq ft or 440 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.88
- Longitudinal: 5.31
- Overall: 1.06
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
1919 Refurbishment of the 1894 Mus-Sag Class.
The original vessels had arge hulls with the main battery dispersed in deck-edge casements, but no barbettes, and large areas for handling the MTBs. This lack of centerline features and of internal areas, making them easier to convert.
Airgroup :
Waterplane Area : 1696
Seaplane Carrier : /120
= 14.33
Twin Engine Seaplanes = 110 each
Reconstruction Penalty : 1.5x
10 aircraft * 110 * 1.5 = 1650t
Split 825 HBW / 825 HAW
Functional Miscellaneous Wt
249t - Turbogenerator (paid above)
140t - Torpedo Nets
24t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
8t - CO2 compressor AC
Removed Equipment
12 x 60L50 QF
8x 180L40 BL
8 x TB-IV
[/quote]
now looking at the 1919.5 budget,
and the remaining 1894 classes.
The 1894 Ninlil scout cruisers will be scrapped. They are slow coal burners, too old for the engines to be converted to oil, and
replacing them takes nearly the same BP as they cost.
The 1894 Dragonfly river gunboats are mainly storyline items. I should have some gunboats for the Tigris/Euphrates, and Caspian/Aral. Since there are no opposing vessels....I'll just refurb them. Eventually replace.
The 1894 Hawg class are fleet supply vessels. Those are decently useful.
So I'll replace the reciprocating engines and armament, drape some torpedo nets off them, put in new air conditioning, and call it good.
Hawg, Parthia Fleet Support vessel laid down 1894 (Engine 1919)
Displacement:
8,962 t light; 9,236 t standard; 10,181 t normal; 10,937 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(400.49 ft / 393.70 ft) x 78.74 ft x (18.04 / 19.17 ft)
(122.07 m / 120.00 m) x 24.00 m x (5.50 / 5.84 m)
Armament:
8 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 100 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1911 Model
8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1918 Model
4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,196 lbs / 542 kg
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 11,925 ihp / 8,896 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 4,998nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,701 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
506 - 658
Cost:
£0.465 million / $1.860 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 183 tons, 1.8 %
- Guns: 183 tons, 1.8 %
Machinery: 716 tons, 7.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,626 tons, 25.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,219 tons, 12.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 5,436 tons, 53.4 %
- Hull below water: 2,370 tons
- Hull void weights: 90 tons
- Hull above water: 2,250 tons
- On freeboard deck: 659 tons
- Above deck: 67 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,086 lbs / 6,843 Kg = 110.1 x 6.5 " / 165 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.69
Metacentric height 8.3 ft / 2.5 m
Roll period: 11.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 83 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.65
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.637 / 0.644
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 19.91 ft / 6.07 m, 19.91 ft / 6.07 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 11.71 ft / 3.57 m, 11.71 ft / 3.57 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 11.71 ft / 3.57 m, 11.71 ft / 3.57 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 19.91 ft / 6.07 m, 19.91 ft / 6.07 m
- Average freeboard: 14.99 ft / 4.57 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 77.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103.5 %
Waterplane Area: 23,466 Square feet or 2,180 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 138 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 92 lbs/sq ft or 448 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.52
- Overall: 1.04
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Misc weight :
5150t Resupply support capability - 51,500 tons fleet vessels.
45t - ventilation
25t - long range radio 1904
7t - 1905 Fire control
90t - construction reserve
1904 Refit : 37t
+ Long Range Radio
- 8x 45L40
+8x 60L50
1907 refit : 7t
+ 1905 Fire Control
1919.5 Refurbishment
Original Construction Cost : 8998 / 4 (aux)
Upgrade reciprocating engines from Simple to Complex.
0.36 BP, 0.72$
Replace Armanent :
Upgrade to 1911 165mm
Install 15mm GAST guns
Remove 60mm anti-boat guns
add 90mm AA
Total : 183tons guns
0.183 BP, $0.366
functional
19t FC
25t LR Radio
120t Torpedo Nets
0.164 BP $ 0.164
Non-Functional
1701t fuel, from coal to 3/4 oil and 1/4 oil-sprayed coal.
23t Cage Mast 30m
9t CO2 compressor AC
70t magazines
(Still 5150t support 2250/2250/650)
Total 1802t /2000 = $0.901
Cost :
2.2495$
0.36 BP, 0.72$
0.183 BP, 0.366$
0.164 BP, 0.164$
0.901$
----------------------
Subtotal : 0.707 BP, 4.4005$
*.25 for AUX
Total : 0.18 BP, 1.10$
So working on Parthia 1920.0, and then 1920.5.
I want to get some large ships started to get their build time ticking.
But I'm aslo trying to move forward on the various refits.
All while finding I don't have enough BP.. argh.
Ok, so I've rebuilt 4/6 Torpedo boat carriers as seaplane carriers.
I don't want the other 2 to fall apart, but not ready to make them into experimental carriers, or more seaplane.
So I'll spend the $1.4 to refurbish them. I can spare that.
At this time, I am not going to worry about their guns or machinery.
I do want to use them as trial beds for the new- to - me MTB-Ds.
So I will build 16 MTB-Ds to replace the old TB-IVs
I will start accounting for the 48 TB-IVs that the 6x TBC used to carry.
Otherwise I will just be doing misc wt.
Current Misc Wt...looking at this I "paid" for many things which you don't "have" to pay for.
Quote
Misc Weight :
140t - Torpedo Nets
48t - Support for 480tons of TBs
128t - Torpedo Reloads ( 8TB x 2 torps x 2t = 4 full reserve loads)
256t - Fuel for TBs (4tx 8TB: 32, so 8 trips)
280t - Berthing for Crew of TBs
960t - 8 x 60t TB
48t - Cranes
25t - Long range radio
20t - 1905 fire control
Want to replace :
(Torpedo boats->New built MTBs in drydocks) = paid
functional Misc wt20t - 1912 fire control
25t - Long range radio (old was 1904, so an updated version)
32t - Fleet Support for 160tons of TBs
200t - Fleet Support for unspecified ( exploring use as a small tender for Subs/DDs)
SubTotal : 277t
fuel, ammunition and stores, non-functional misc wt320 - the "doubling" cost of deck craft
48t - Cranes
7t - AC
280t - Berthing for Crew of TBs
256t - Torpedo Reloads (expanded)
256t - Fuel for TBs
Subtotal :1160
Costs :
7,014 tons base
$*0.2 = $ 1.403
277t FMW = $0.277, 0.277BP
1160 F/A/NFMW = $0,58, No BP
Total : $2.26, .277 BP
The New Misc Wt will look like
Quote
1920 Refurbishment :
20t LR Radio
25t 1912 FC
7t CO2 Compressor AC
48t Cranes
640t 8x MTB-D
200t Fleet Supply for 2,000 tons
32 Fleet support for 160t MTB
280t Berthing for crews of MTBs
256t - Ammo Stores Torpedo reloads
256t - Fuel for TBs
140t - Torpedo Nets
The Vazrya and Stombringer classes are completing in 1920, bringing my fleet to 120x 365mm guns.
Some may say that *Should* be more than enough...
they could even be right....
But with the long build times on large capital ships, I rather want to get my next class Ssarted in 1920.
The first HY will be just 1,000tons, but can ramp up in HY2.
I will only be building 2 at a time, no more of this 4 at once stuff.
Instead I'll make ACs !... which will take a similar amount of tonnage a HY....argh..
So this is the draft battlewagon.
Classic Parthian heavy metal.
You can see that it's a transitional ship in many ways.
Still maintaining a cruiser-proof upper belt, but reduced to thwart just light cruisers,
and still with a protected deck, but an inclined exterior belt.
Still with casements, but featuring deck guns.
With torpedo carrying seaplanes about, the AA armament is boosted.
With ranges creeping up, deck armor has been increased, but it is still split
between two deck levels.
I am tempted to just discard the upper belt but so far our wars have included small
craft in knife fight range.
The Torpedo nets are for that reason too- we've seen saturation attacks,
and while the fleet is working to make those non-feasible, the Parthians
are still worried about massive wave attacks, where it might be best
to deploy nets. The 1913 torpedo tech would include net cutters, but
that still requires multiple hits on a single panel - hard for MTBs/DDs to manage.
There's still a robust TDS behind it to take care of successful hits,
and the interior hull is heavily compartmentalized and very manueverable.
Bulge :
As typical for Parthian vessels, the Bulge is from the bottom of the main belt
down to the turn of the bilge. A double bottom is fitted as well.
The exterior bulge was dropped from 13mm, which I had been using to 9mm,
because I read the Brits were suprised to learn the Germans chose that 9mm,
apparently they wanted to make sure splinters from the hull didn't become
projectiles. All and all, it adds depth to the entire system.
Depth being rather important to TDS systems, I'll take it.
I go into detail how I did the formulas for an inclined belt on top of the average-thickness tapered belt.
Kalifern
Dropping the Q turret of the prior class, the limited arcs
mean most of the firepower is retained, and with the upgrade
to the 50 caliber gun, they expect nearly the same combat
effectiveness from the smaller ship.
On paper the throwwieght is 91% the same, but with the improvements in sectional density and better arcs, they expect no functional difference.
The Main Belt is complex.
Rising 1.2m above the protected deck to protect against plunging shells over the upper edge, itis slightly outsloped by 10%.
It also tapers as described below.
Outsloping
Overall it is 5.2m high. which is "A" or adjacent
COS 10 = A/H
H* Cos 10 = A
H = A/Cos 10
tapering
Tapered belt from +2.7 to -2.5
2.7 to 1.5 200 -> 350 : 240,000+90,000
1.5 to -1.5 350 : 1,050,000
-1.5 to -2.5 350-> 200 : 200,000+ 75,000
total : 1,655,000mm3
350mm ave = 4.73
Total Belt
Belt is 5.2m high,
adjusted for thickness, it's 350mm avereged over 4.73.
So 4.73 is "A" for the purposes of the cos formula.
the "Height" simmed is H = 4.73 / Cos 10 = 4.80
Upper Belt :
The main belt tapers to nearly the upper deck, so the upper belt actually is only 1.3m high, connecting the main belt to the upper armored deck.
Deck guns : 4 twin 130mm mounts on the decks are expected to supplement both end-on and broadside fire.
Casements : 6 guns each side seperated by 35mm armored screens, the hoists shielded by 75mm.
The casements are at +3.9m above water, 75m long.
The upper belt extends past that to the base of A &B turrets
Casement guns at each end, that leaves 4 in the middle spaced 15m apart. G (15) G (15) G (15) G (15) G (15) G
TDS : (9) Bulge (mild), hull, liquid (19mm) void (19), liquid armored (30mm), Dam control, flooding (mild)
Kalifern II, Parthian Battleship laid down 1920
Displacement:
36,000 t light; 39,520 t standard; 41,982 t normal; 43,953 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(610.97 ft / 597.11 ft) x 111.55 ft (Bulges 121.39 ft) x (31.33 / 32.69 ft)
(186.22 m / 182.00 m) x 34.00 m (Bulges 37.00 m) x (9.55 / 9.96 m)
Armament:
16 - 14.37" / 365 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,719.61lbs / 780.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1920 Model
4 x Quad mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
8 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1920 Model
4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1920 Model
12 x Single mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
12 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 350 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1920 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 29,217 lbs / 13,253 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 388.12 ft / 118.30 m 15.75 ft / 4.80 m
Ends: 1.38" / 35 mm 208.96 ft / 63.69 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Upper: 2.95" / 75 mm 388.12 ft / 118.30 m 4.27 ft / 1.30 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined 10.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
2.68" / 68 mm 388.12 ft / 118.30 m 34.97 ft / 10.66 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 82.02 ft / 25.00 m
- Hull Bulges:
0.35" / 9 mm 388.12 ft / 118.30 m 23.13 ft / 7.05 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.7" / 400 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 13.8" / 350 mm
2nd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 2.95" / 75 mm
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - 0.31" / 8 mm
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 5.12" / 130 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 3.74" / 95 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 13.78" / 350 mm, Aft 2.95" / 75 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 37,301 shp / 27,827 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 8,100nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,433 tons
Complement:
1,466 - 1,906
Cost:
£9.886 million / $39.545 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 5,091 tons, 12.1 %
- Guns: 5,091 tons, 12.1 %
Armour: 13,794 tons, 32.9 %
- Belts: 4,168 tons, 9.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,345 tons, 3.2 %
- Bulges: 118 tons, 0.3 %
- Armament: 3,315 tons, 7.9 %
- Armour Deck: 4,413 tons, 10.5 %
- Conning Towers: 435 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,304 tons, 3.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,515 tons, 34.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,982 tons, 14.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,296 tons, 3.1 %
- Hull below water: 544 tons
- Bulge void weights: 100 tons
- On freeboard deck: 142 tons
- Above deck: 510 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
44,651 lbs / 20,253 Kg = 30.1 x 14.4 " / 365 mm shells or 8.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 7.3 ft / 2.2 m
Roll period: 18.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.647 / 0.649
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.92 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.44 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 22.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m, 15.58 ft / 4.75 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 15.58 ft / 4.75 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Average freeboard: 14.24 ft / 4.34 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 90.5 %
Waterplane Area: 50,885 Square feet or 4,727 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 250 lbs/sq ft or 1,219 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.37
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
100t Reserve Wt
510t Fire Control
25 LR Radio
25 kite balloon
36t Additional fire suppresion
36t CO2 Air conditioning
25 Hulesmeyer device
25 Searchlight tower
36 Extra pumps
326 turbo electric
182 torpedo nets
Decks
+4.0 Weather deck 35mm , top upper belt
+2.7 top main belt
+1.5 Crown protective deck 95mm, top of TDS.
-1.0 Bottom edge protective deck
-2.5 bottom main belt
-3.5 2nd Deck
-6.0 1st Deck
-8.5 Engineering
-9.16 Double Bottom
Writing up Kalifern II above, I realized I had not really investigated an All or Nothing version.
Since this may be the last of my 20 knot & 365mm battlewagons, it can have a low freeboard,
which means the unarmored hull is relatively small. A reasonable place to try 'all or nothing'.
Plus we are in 1920 now, so I can reasonably consider moving the secondary to all deck guns.
SO here is an AON version.
Kalifern III, Parthian Battleship laid down 1920
Displacement:
36,000 t light; 39,520 t standard; 41,982 t normal; 43,953 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(611.36 ft / 597.11 ft) x 111.55 ft (Bulges 121.39 ft) x (31.33 / 32.69 ft)
(186.34 m / 182.00 m) x 34.00 m (Bulges 37.00 m) x (9.55 / 9.96 m)
Armament:
16 - 14.37" / 365 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,719.61lbs / 780.00kg shells, 162 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1920 Model
4 x Quad mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
16 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 227 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1920 Model
8 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 350 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1920 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 28,935 lbs / 13,125 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 388.12 ft / 118.30 m 14.34 ft / 4.37 m
Ends: 1.38" / 35 mm 208.96 ft / 63.69 m 14.34 ft / 4.37 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined 10.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
2.99" / 76 mm 388.12 ft / 118.30 m 35.96 ft / 10.96 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 82.02 ft / 25.00 m
- Hull Bulges:
0.35" / 9 mm 388.12 ft / 118.30 m 23.13 ft / 7.05 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.7" / 400 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 13.8" / 350 mm
2nd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - 0.31" / 8 mm
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 4.92" / 125 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 4.92" / 125 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 13.78" / 350 mm, Aft 2.95" / 75 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 37,301 shp / 27,827 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 8,100nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,433 tons
Complement:
1,466 - 1,906
Cost:
£9.922 million / $39.687 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 5,131 tons, 12.2 %
- Guns: 5,131 tons, 12.2 %
Armour: 13,484 tons, 32.1 %
- Belts: 3,626 tons, 8.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,545 tons, 3.7 %
- Bulges: 118 tons, 0.3 %
- Armament: 3,388 tons, 8.1 %
- Armour Deck: 4,372 tons, 10.4 %
- Conning Towers: 435 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,304 tons, 3.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,702 tons, 35.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,983 tons, 14.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,379 tons, 3.3 %
- Hull below water: 544 tons
- Bulge void weights: 180 tons
- On freeboard deck: 142 tons
- Above deck: 513 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
46,136 lbs / 20,927 Kg = 31.1 x 14.4 " / 365 mm shells or 9.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 7.6 ft / 2.3 m
Roll period: 18.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.647 / 0.649
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.92 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.44 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 22.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 19.03 ft / 5.80 m, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Forward deck: 35.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 14.11 ft / 4.30 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 14.11 ft / 4.30 m, 14.11 ft / 4.30 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 14.11 ft / 4.30 m, 15.09 ft / 4.60 m
- Average freeboard: 15.25 ft / 4.65 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 97.4 %
Waterplane Area: 50,885 Square feet or 4,727 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 251 lbs/sq ft or 1,225 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.44
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Mark III
No upper belt, all deck guns
Kalifern
Dropping the Q turret of the prior class, the limited arcs
mean most of the firepower is retained, and with the upgrade
to the 50 caliber gun, they expect nearly the same combat
effectiveness from the smaller ship.
On paper the throwwieght is 91% the same, but with the improvements in sectional density and better arcs, they expect no functional difference.
Deck Guns
Deck guns are echloned outwards, like on Iowa,
allowing 4 to bear ahead (8 guns), or 4 on each side.
The twin 90m AA are above them.
Armor
This embraces "all or nothing", but only has 1 deck level unprotected.
The main armor deck caps the belt at 1.8m.
The belt is a uniform thickness. extending from the armor deck to
2.5m below water.
slightly outsloped by 10%.
Outsloping
Overall it is 4.3m high. which is "A" or adjacent
COS 10 = A/H
H* Cos 10 = A
H = A/Cos 10
Which gives 4.366 or 4.37 as the height.
TDS : (9) Bulge (mild hull), liquid (19mm) void (19), liquid armored (2x19=38mm), Dam control, flooding (mild)
180t Reserve Wt
513t Fire Control
25 LR Radio
25 kite balloon
36t Additional fire suppresion
36t CO2 Air conditioning
25 Hulesmeyer device
25 Searchlight tower
36 Extra pumps
326 turbo electric
182 torpedo nets
Decks
+4.2 Weather deck
+1.8 Armor Deck 125mm , top of TDS.
-0.7 3rd Deck
-2.5 bottom main belt
-3.2 2nd Deck
-5.7 1st Deck
-8.2 Engineering
-9.16 Double Bottom
12 AA guns seems pretty heavy for this time period.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on December 12, 2021, 08:17:09 PM
12 AA guns seems pretty heavy for this time period.
Easy to fix. I can make them singles.
I don't have a good feel for what would be 'right'.
Further, I expect we'll be more aircraft heavy than the real world anyhow.
Looking at HMS Nelson, she seems to have completed with 6x 120" and 8x 20mm as AA.
I don't have any 120mm AA....or 20mm. I have 90...soon 57.. and twin 15mm.
The twin 90mm have almost the same shell weight as 120mm, I'm thinking ROF and the ability to hit high flying level bombers (which they fretted about) means the 90mm is better.
Of course Nelson had 152mm decks over the magazines. Which seems excessive for the period.
Though they were a little paranoid about magazine security after Jutland, even though practices were more the issue.
The deck armor varied a bunch throughout the ship. The 95mm over the machinery seems more "real"
for the current ranges. Indeed the first ship has that as the main armor, with the 35mm upper deck.
I suppose I could replicate with a 100mm deck and +50mm in a box over the magazines.
Problem is you can't do that in one go in Springsharp.
QuoteThe Vazrya and Stombringer classes are completing in 1920, bringing my fleet to 120x 365mm guns.
Some may say that *Should* be more than enough...
they could even be right....
I thought that after having built 4 '' bigs '' in the same time, we will have a small pose of a few years ...
=> Dont forget Cruisers, DDs, TBs...
Much of your ships are obsolete, they must be replaced.
I'm trying to get into a groove of one new capital ship every year. I think I can sustain that now that my BP is increasing by two every year.
Quote from: Jefgte on December 13, 2021, 08:45:03 AM
I thought that after having built 4 '' bigs '' in the same time, we will have a small pose of a few years ...
=> Dont forget Cruisers, DDs, TBs...
Much of your ships are obsolete, they must be replaced.
That is why I am posting up refurbishment plans, many ships have aged poorly.
I plan on re-engining/arming a number of older vessels as I have more $ than BP.
It looks like ~25 cruisers (4 specialized), 12 gunboats, 46 minesweepers, 68 DD, +24 refurb for ASW, 356 MTB-A, only 5 subs, 28 patrol sloops and a Fleet supply vessel in the past decade.
That's not a horrible number.
Long term, I'm trying to settle down to 2 bigs at a time. The lead time is just too long.
But as you can see I've been pretty steadily cranking out cruisers, destroyers, MS and MTBs.
I've held off on Subs until the 1915 tech, as the 1905 and 1910 versions are so limited, so I am slowly starting on a sub arm.
I could delay the Kaliferns to 1921, it really does not help with machinery weight at all.
I could prioritize the Zemaka ACs instead - I was going to post them after this discussion.
With the need to model the 6xAA version, I tinkered with it overall.
The 'killer app' is trying to model extra deck armor over the magazines.
This version adds a couple meters of length.
That brings it to 36680 tons which / 8 HY is 4585, an even number.
As advertised It reduces the 90AA from 12 to 6.
I will note the N3 class devoted far more tonnage in the 6x 120 & 4x 10x40mm.
So I am a bit ambivalent about reducing it before I have my 57mm AA in service.
I tried something different with the deck armor
With the Brits featuring heavier armor over the magazines, I wanted to emulate that.
But HOW...
This might be a design detail we ignore...or embrace.
But how do we do it?
In this case,
I did 2 different versions, explained it in the design notes,
One for a 35 - 130 - 130 deck
then one for a 35mm box over the magazines.
Which ...I think would suffice as 165mm over the magazines ?
I'm actually over paying there, as the box would have sides.
Anyone got a better way to model this??
Then how to present it in the Sim ??
I gave it a shot. Let me know.
Kalifern IV, Parthian Battleship laid down 1920 (Engine 1921)
Displacement:
36,680 t light; 40,185 t standard; 42,674 t normal; 44,666 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(620.08 ft / 606.96 ft) x 111.55 ft (Bulges 121.39 ft) x (31.33 / 32.68 ft)
(189.00 m / 185.00 m) x 34.00 m (Bulges 37.00 m) x (9.55 / 9.96 m)
Armament:
16 - 14.37" / 365 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,719.61lbs / 780.00kg shells, 162 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1920 Model
4 x Quad mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
16 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 227 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1920 Model
8 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 350 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1920 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 28,790 lbs / 13,059 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 394.52 ft / 120.25 m 14.34 ft / 4.37 m
Ends: 1.38" / 35 mm 212.40 ft / 64.74 m 14.34 ft / 4.37 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined 10.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
2.99" / 76 mm 394.52 ft / 120.25 m 35.96 ft / 10.96 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 82.02 ft / 25.00 m
- Hull Bulges:
0.35" / 9 mm 394.52 ft / 120.25 m 23.13 ft / 7.05 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.7" / 400 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 13.8" / 350 mm
2nd: 2.56" / 65 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - 0.31" / 8 mm
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 5.28" / 134 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 5.12" / 130 mm
Note : Armor deck is arranged :
For and Aft decks: 5.12" / 130 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 5.12" / 130 mm
AND Box over magazines: 1.38" / 35 mm
For a combined over magazines of 165mm.
- Conning towers: Forward 13.78" / 350 mm, Aft 2.95" / 75 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 37,458 shp / 27,944 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 8,200nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,481 tons
Complement:
1,483 - 1,929
Cost:
£9.937 million / $39.747 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 5,086 tons, 11.9 %
- Guns: 5,086 tons, 11.9 %
Armour: 13,942 tons, 32.7 %
- Belts: 3,676 tons, 8.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,571 tons, 3.7 %
- Bulges: 120 tons, 0.3 %
- Armament: 3,389 tons, 7.9 %
- Armour Deck: 4,747 tons, 11.1 %
- Conning Towers: 440 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,290 tons, 3.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,855 tons, 34.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,995 tons, 14.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,507 tons, 3.5 %
- Hull below water: 546 tons
- Bulge void weights: 280 tons
- On freeboard deck: 147 tons
- Above deck: 534 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
47,955 lbs / 21,752 Kg = 32.3 x 14.4 " / 365 mm shells or 9.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 7.6 ft / 2.3 m
Roll period: 18.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.647 / 0.649
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.64 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 17.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 19.03 ft / 5.80 m, 16.57 ft / 5.05 m
- Forward deck: 37.00 %, 16.57 ft / 5.05 m, 14.11 ft / 4.30 m
- Aft deck: 28.00 %, 14.11 ft / 4.30 m, 14.11 ft / 4.30 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 14.11 ft / 4.30 m, 15.09 ft / 4.60 m
- Average freeboard: 15.33 ft / 4.67 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98.4 %
Waterplane Area: 51,723 Square feet or 4,805 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 249 lbs/sq ft or 1,213 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.40
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Mark IV
No upper belt, all on-deck guns
Kalifern
Dropping the Q turret of the prior class, the limited arcs
mean most of the firepower is retained, and with the upgrade
to the 50 caliber gun, they expect nearly the same combat
effectiveness from the smaller ship.
On paper the throwwieght is 91% the same, but with the improvements in sectional density and better arcs, they expect no functional difference.
Deck Guns
Deck guns are echloned outwards, like on Iowa,
allowing 4 to bear ahead (8 guns), or 4 on each side.
The single 90m AA are above them.
Main Belt Armor
This embraces "all or nothing", but only has 1 deck level unprotected.
The main armor deck caps the belt at 1.8m.
The belt is a uniform thickness. extending from the armor deck to 2.5m below water.
Belt is slightly outsloped by 10%.
Outsloping
Overall it is 4.3m high. which is "A" or adjacent
COS 10 = A/H
H* Cos 10 = A
H = A/Cos 10
Which gives 4.366 or 4.37 as the height.
Deck Armor
35/130/130 is 4,617tons
35mm box over the magazines is 130tons
For a total of 4,747 tons
Which takes a Fore&Aft thickness of 134.2
TDS
Raised to the underside of the Armor deck at 1.8m above waterline.
TDS : (9) Bulge (mild hull), liquid (19mm) void (19), liquid armored (2x19=38mm), Dam control, flooding (mild)
There is a 35mm Box around the magazines this adds 130 tons,
boosting total deck to 4574
280t Reserve Wt
509t Fire Control
25 LR Radio
25 kite balloon
36t Additional fire suppresion
36t CO2 Air conditioning
25 Hulesmeyer device
25 Searchlight tower
36 Extra pumps
328 turbo electric
182 torpedo nets
Decks
+4.3 Weather deck
+1.8 Armor Deck 125mm , top of TDS.
-0.7 3rd Deck
-2.5 bottom main belt
-3.2 2nd Deck
-5.7 1st Deck
-8.2 Engineering
-9.16 Double Bottom
So, likely the last version of Kalifern. Version V.
After this has been up a little bit, I'll put up the new cruiser and armored cruiser designs.
The Armored Cruiser I will probably lay down in 1920.0 instead of the Kalifern.
The cruiser may also wait for 1921, or may be put down in 1920.
As for the battlewagon, a little pause such as Jefgte mentioned may be ok.
I am pretty sure at least the heavy part of my battleline is strong,
even if the support elements are aging.
Taking the idea of delaying it slightly, and putting the laydown date to 1921.
With the critique of the AA, it's reduced and the Secondary/Tertiary rearranged.
A schematic of the layout is added
The belt has been changed to tapered, and still outsloped.
The armor deck has the above calculation, using
an 'box over magazine' setting to calculate either a thicker armor deck over magazines
...or just a box over magazines.
Kalifern V, Parthian Battleship laid down 1921
Displacement:
37,000 t light; 40,225 t standard; 42,674 t normal; 44,634 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(620.08 ft / 606.96 ft) x 111.55 ft (Bulges 121.39 ft) x (31.33 / 32.66 ft)
(189.00 m / 185.00 m) x 34.00 m (Bulges 37.00 m) x (9.55 / 9.95 m)
Armament:
16 - 14.37" / 365 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,719.61lbs / 780.00kg shells, 140 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1918 Model
4 x Quad mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
20 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 220 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1913 Model
8 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1911 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1921 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 29,121 lbs / 13,209 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 394.52 ft / 120.25 m 15.19 ft / 4.63 m
Ends: 1.38" / 35 mm 212.40 ft / 64.74 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined 15.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
2.99" / 76 mm 394.52 ft / 120.25 m 35.96 ft / 10.96 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 82.02 ft / 25.00 m
- Hull Bulges:
0.35" / 9 mm 394.52 ft / 120.25 m 23.13 ft / 7.05 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.7" / 400 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 13.8" / 350 mm
2nd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 5.27" / 134 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 5.12" / 130 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 13.78" / 350 mm, Aft 2.95" / 75 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 37,458 shp / 27,944 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 8,056nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,409 tons
Complement:
1,483 - 1,929
Cost:
£10.819 million / $43.277 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 5,186 tons, 12.2 %
- Guns: 5,186 tons, 12.2 %
Armour: 14,164 tons, 33.2 %
- Belts: 3,846 tons, 9.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,571 tons, 3.7 %
- Bulges: 120 tons, 0.3 %
- Armament: 3,450 tons, 8.1 %
- Armour Deck: 4,738 tons, 11.1 %
- Conning Towers: 440 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,290 tons, 3.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,922 tons, 35.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,674 tons, 13.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,438 tons, 3.4 %
- Hull below water: 545 tons
- Bulge void weights: 200 tons
- On freeboard deck: 149 tons
- Above deck: 544 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
47,433 lbs / 21,515 Kg = 32.0 x 14.4 " / 365 mm shells or 9.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 7.4 ft / 2.2 m
Roll period: 18.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.08
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.647 / 0.649
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.64 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 17.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 19.03 ft / 5.80 m, 16.73 ft / 5.10 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 16.73 ft / 5.10 m, 14.11 ft / 4.30 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 14.11 ft / 4.30 m, 14.11 ft / 4.30 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 14.11 ft / 4.30 m, 15.09 ft / 4.60 m
- Average freeboard: 15.28 ft / 4.66 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 97.7 %
Waterplane Area: 51,723 Square feet or 4,805 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 250 lbs/sq ft or 1,223 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.40
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
NEEED TO DO DECK ARMOR
Mark V
Reduces AA to 8 guns,
Repositions to superstructure corners.
130mm put in place
Roughly
A/B/X/Y : Pair O Twins (4 Gun) 365mm
1-12 : 2-Gun 130mm
a-c : 2-Gun 90mm AA
4 6
2 a b 8
A (B) 1 10 (X) Y
3 c d 9
5 7
This gives good main battery Arcs,
It gives considerable 130mm fire fore/aft and on broadside
and for 1920 has robust AA, sited at superstructure corners for 4 barrels in each direction.
Kalifern
Dropping the Q turret of the prior class, the limited arcs
mean most of the firepower is retained, and with the upgrade
to the 50 caliber gun, they expect nearly the same combat
effectiveness from the smaller ship.
On paper the throwwieght is 91% the same, but with the improvements in sectional density and better arcs, they expect no functional difference.
End Belt
From 1.8m to -1.7m, Intended to keep exploding shells from turning the ship ends into a colander.
Main Belt Armor
This embraces "all or nothing", but only has 1 deck level unprotected.
This Belt Armor is figured in an overly complex manner.
From 1.8m to - 1.2m it is 350mm thick.
From 1.2m to -3.2m it tapers from 350mm to 200mm
This gives an untapered upper section (A) of 3m x350
The lower section is the untaped 200mm piece (B) and the wedge tapering from 350->200. (C)
(A) 3m x 350 = 1050
(B) 2m x 200 = 400
(C) 2m wedge from 350 to 200 = 1/2 b x h means 150/2 x 2m =150
Over 5m this is an averaged thickness of 320mm.
Adjusting for a 350mm Thickness, this is a 4.57m height
(320/350 * 5 = 4.57)
The Armor is Outsloped at 15 degrees
4.57 / cos 15 = 4.62334374
= 4.63m adjusted height at 350mm thickness.
Deck Armor
35/130/130 is 4,617tons
35mm box over the magazines is 121tons
For a total of 4,738 tons
Which takes a Fore&Aft thickness of 133.9
TDS
1.5m external bulges from keel to bottom of belt at -2.5m.
4.5m internal bulges from keel and raised to the underside of the Armor deck at 1.8m above waterline.
TDS : (9) Bulge (mild hull), liquid (19mm) void (19), liquid armored (2x19=38mm), Dam control & flooding corridor(mild)
There is a 35mm Box around the magazines this adds 130 tons,
boosting total deck to 4574
200t Reserve Wt
519t Fire Control
25 LR Radio
25 kite balloon
37t Additional fire suppresion
37t CO2 Air conditioning
25 Hulesmeyer device
25 Searchlight tower
37 Extra pumps
323 turbo electric
185 torpedo nets
Decks
+4.3 Weather deck
+1.8 Main Deck :
Top of Main Belt 360mm
Armor Deck 125mm , top of TDS.
-0.7 3rd Deck
-2.5 Main belt 350, tapers to 300mm
-3.2 2nd Deck, Bottom main belt 300mm.
-5.7 1st Deck
-8.2 Engineering
-9.16 Double Bottom
If I'm delaying the
Kalifern class,
then I should get started on a new armored cruiser.
I realize many folks are building 27-30,0000 ton plus ships for that role.
However, for something designed to be risked on scouting expeditions, or kill enemy cruisers, or serve as a raider,
30,000 tons seems like a great deal.
So what are the design parameters ?
I'd like to put holes in opposing cruisers at long range. By now I should know the older Byzantine ACs have 200mm belts,
So ..that at the edge of FC, or 18km.
The existing 300L41 gun was one option, but with the new gun tech, I developed the 255L47.
The new 255L47 gun with a heavy shell should be able to punch a hole in Byzantine 200mm belts at 18km.
And I'd like 10 of those....8 minimum. With the slightly higher ROF of a 10" vs. 12" I could likely do 6 of them.
Speed -
Speed has been annoying, each generation of ships is faster. I need 29 or 30knots minimum, but if I can get more, that's good.
Speed is tied to dock length. Particularly the dock length in the territories. Because I want to maintain and repair my ships.
I have 160m and 190m docks in my territories. So I need a hull that will fit 190m, and then as much speed as I can manage.
Here I ramped it up to 31knots, and 9500nm, so a good radius of action.
Protection -
I'd love to have an upper belt proof against QF weapons, but since I should be able to quickly kill smaller cruisers, I think I can save the tonnage.
The main belt is still backed by a protective deck, giving me effectively over 220mm of waterline armor - before the outsloped belt.
The Deck armor , at 65mm, can stop splinters up to 390mm, and will exclude even 381mm shells under ~21,000m. However ships with those guns are not the desired foe. If they have to fight such, charging to close the range, or trying for a night battle is preferred. 6x343 will have a lower ROF and once both sides can penetrate, the 255 may suffice. This is where 6x 300L41 or 4x 345L40 was considered.
TDS :For a ship this size, especially with the swelling submarine and MTB ranks, I want a TDS.
That requires the beam to use it, which makes speed harder to attain..... fitting the TDS added a lot to the displacement.
Sadly it only adds 1 torpedo to the damage absorption, but it should stop the automatic critical damage.
Overall I could have the same basic ship without TDS for 16500 tons, but it would be 2.2torps, and any hit would crit.
Torpedo nets :
This does not have torpedo nets.
At this stage I'm the only one with them, and would like to have them.
Others may wonder why.
The 1890s nets limited speed to like 6 knots, but from the late 1890s on they could do like 15knts. Which was still below battleline speed. However, they only took a couple minutes to deploy.
They were tested and passed very well in the Russo-Japanese war. They could render all but the extreme ends of the ship 'safe'.
They fell out of use historically when net-cutters allowed German sub to take down a Net Panel and sink a battleship at Gallipoli.
BUT..that took multiple shots at the same panel.
There was a worry they could come off due to battle damage and foul a propeller.
Granted, that never happened, but my newer battleships are all electric drive and can idle 1 propellor.
Meanwhile the external and internal bulges rendered occasional torpedo hits manageable.
Here, both the Sino-Japanese war, and the Aztec-Roman war, you've seen lots of torpedoes in the water.
Saturation of defenses can lead to some torpedoes slamming home.
Likewise, surprise attacks to start seem possible, and being able to deploy nets to compensate for ships being out of position.
At which point I find I've been explaining why the Kaliferns do.
The Zemakas, though, should be able to sprint away from mass attacks, or manuever and elude.
The occasional hit should be survivable due to the TDS>
Anyhow enough blathering :
Quote
Zemaka - Winter Storm, Parthian Armored Cruiser laid down 1920
Displacement:
18,500 t light; 19,516 t standard; 21,342 t normal; 22,803 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(621.03 ft / 613.52 ft) x 78.74 ft (Bulges 82.02 ft) x (29.53 / 31.11 ft)
(189.29 m / 187.00 m) x 24.00 m (Bulges 25.00 m) x (9.00 / 9.48 m)
Armament:
8 - 10.04" / 255 mm 47.0 cal guns - 601.86lbs / 273.00kg shells, 161 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1920 Model
2 x 4-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 51.50lbs / 23.36kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1920 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,628 lbs / 2,553 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 466.27 ft / 142.12 m 12.99 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: 1.38" / 35 mm 147.21 ft / 44.87 m 12.99 ft / 3.96 m
Main Belt covers 117 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined 10.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
2.24" / 57 mm 466.27 ft / 142.12 m 27.82 ft / 8.48 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 59.06 ft / 18.00 m
- Hull Bulges:
0.51" / 13 mm 490.81 ft / 149.60 m 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 255 mm 4.92" / 125 mm 8.27" / 210 mm
2nd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 2.56" / 65 mm
3rd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.56" / 65 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 2.56" / 65 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 7.87" / 200 mm, Aft 2.56" / 65 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 122,000 shp / 91,012 Kw = 31.01 kts
Range 9,540nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,286 tons
Complement:
882 - 1,147
Cost:
£4.072 million / $16.288 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,208 tons, 5.7 %
- Guns: 1,208 tons, 5.7 %
Armour: 5,824 tons, 27.3 %
- Belts: 2,048 tons, 9.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,077 tons, 5.0 %
- Bulges: 213 tons, 1.0 %
- Armament: 816 tons, 3.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1,496 tons, 7.0 %
- Conning Towers: 173 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 4,266 tons, 20.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,785 tons, 31.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,843 tons, 13.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 417 tons, 2.0 %
- Hull below water: 37 tons
- Bulge void weights: 185 tons
- Hull above water: 49 tons
- Above deck: 146 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
24,486 lbs / 11,106 Kg = 48.4 x 10.0 " / 255 mm shells or 3.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 4.4 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.503 / 0.510
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.48 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 16.00 %, 28.05 ft / 8.55 m, 26.41 ft / 8.05 m
- Forward deck: 24.00 %, 26.41 ft / 8.05 m, 26.41 ft / 8.05 m
- Aft deck: 52.00 %, 18.21 ft / 5.55 m, 18.21 ft / 5.55 m
- Quarter deck: 8.00 %, 18.21 ft / 5.55 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 21.65 ft / 6.60 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 116.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.9 %
Waterplane Area: 32,267 Square feet or 2,998 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 145 lbs/sq ft or 706 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.76
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
There are two versions, an 18000 and a 18500.
They differ slighly in BC.
The extra 500tons 'buys' :
15mm belt & Con armor 165->180
5mm deck armor 60->65
20mm turret face armor 230->250
10mm barbette armor 200->210
That seems worth 500tons.
Weaponry
The 255mm L 47 gun with the heavy shell was developed to take advantage of new artillery research.
While there had been hopes of fielding a 230mm gun, evaluation of it's penetration at
18km was not entirely satisfactory. Using 18km as a standard by which cruiser sized hulls
are expected to be visible, and so full FC be effective at some point, the desire is
to start to punch holes in cruisers at that range, though decisive battle range is expected
at 14km.
The L47 has slightly less belt armor penetration compared to an L50, but somewhat better
deck penetration. The belt penetration rapidly improves as ranges close.
Secondary
The 120mm guns allow 6 guns forward/aft and 8 guns on either beam.
Armor :
The main battery has heavier armor than the belt,
reflecting that the belt has the protective deck behind it.
The first true foray into "All or Nothing"
The Protective Deck is from 0.65m down to -1.8m
The belt rises 1.25m over the belt and descends
to 2m for 3m total.
The Belt is from 1.9m to -2.0m
A distance of 3.9, but is inclined 10deg so needs 3.96
(3.9 / cos(10) = 3.960 = 3.96.)
Giving an unarmored freeboard of 4.4m.
The 60mm deck will defeat splinters up to 360mm.
TDS
The vessel is designed for Depth of TDS, which drives the Beam.
With 17.4m across the amidships, and 3.5deep on each side, there is a large volume which
should not be flooded, minimizing list from Torpedo strikes
The 3.5m deep side protection has a 19mm STS bulkhead seperating the compartment
in two, and a 38mm (laminated 2x19mm) bulkhead backing the system.
The compartments are an outer 2m wide, and an inner 1.3m (4.3ft) wide.
The outer filled with oil fuel, the inner with air. This is expected to
minimize list if the outer is breached, as fuel and seawater will be exchanged. The
fuel is expected to disperse and broaden the concussion on the 19mm bulkhead.
That bulkhead is chosen for maximizing deformation ability and toughness.
While also being splinterproof.
The 38mm (2x19mm) provides a backup which will stop any splinters, but is also
able to deform.
The 1.3m (4.3ft) void space between it and the 19mm will allow Damage control
access for leaks, or counterflooding compartment on the far side of the vessel.
MISC :
185- Reserve wt.
AD :
121 - FC
25 - LR radio
OD :
50t - 2 Kite balloons
HAW :
18t - CO2 Air compressor A/C
37t - Imp Fire ext.
HBW :
37t - Pumps
Decks : 2.45m for most
8.05m : Forecastle
5.55m : Weather
3.10m : Battery
+1.90: Top Main Belt
0.65m : Main - Protective Deck, Top TDS
-1.8m : Lower Edge Protective Deck, 2nd Deck
-2.00m : Bottom Main belt
-4.25 : 1st Deck
-7.20 : Engineering
-7.83 : Keel, Double bottom
Ed : posted proper version.
Looks very capable.
Pregame, I envisioned a navy that had transitioned from a shore defense & commerce warfare role to a more traditional battlefleet.
With the advent of QF weapons, I built a series of large protected cruisers that were to serve in either.
Refurbishing them takes roughly the cost of new construction, but saves half the industry effort.
Since BP is the limiter for Parthia, that's ok.
The first was PC-1
Shabfang and PC-2
Shabriz. which mean something I forget.
https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7046.0.html (https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7046.0.html)
This is the refurbished PC-1
Quote
Cost Basis :
A) 20% of original cost
B) Armament and machinery , BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost = twice the BP cost.
C ) Armor and functional miscellaneous weight, BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost is equal to BP cost.
D) Hull, fittings & equipment, No BP cost; $ cost is equal to (tonnage/5000)
E) Fuel, ammunition & stores; non-functional miscellaneous weight , No BP cost; $ cost is (tonnage/2000).
A) $1.198 , 0 BP = $5.99 * 0.2
B) $3,734 ,1.867BP = 2*$(0.291+1.576), (0.291+1.576) BP
C) $1.074 ,1.074BP = $(0.388+0.096+ 0.59) , (0.388+0.096+ 0.59) BP
D) N/A
E)$0.814, 0 BP = ((1470+98+60)/2000)
-----------
$6.82, 2.941 BP
Quote
PC-1 Shabrang R1920, Parthia Protected Cruiser laid down 1900 (Engine 1920)
Displacement:
5,963 t light; 6,202 t standard; 7,019 t normal; 7,672 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(492.13 ft / 475.72 ft) x 47.57 ft x (21.33 / 22.83 ft)
(150.00 m / 145.00 m) x 14.50 m x (6.50 / 6.96 m)
Armament:
6 - 7.09" / 180 mm 43.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 140 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1913 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1911 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides forward
2 raised mounts
2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 500 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1904 Model
4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,222 lbs / 554 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.56" / 65 mm 437.99 ft / 133.50 m 12.01 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 142 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 2.95" / 75 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
3rd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.36" / 60 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.38" / 35 mm
Protective Deck : Laminate 35mm onto existing Protective deck, both citadel and quarterdeck.
Laminations are 80% effective, so this adds
28mm
Forecastle : 25 slopes and crown
Citadel : 118 slopes and 53 crown
quarterdeck : 35mm slopes and crown
- Conning towers: Forward 3.54" / 90 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 45,083 shp / 33,632 Kw = 28.25 kts
Range 8,300nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,470 tons
Complement:
383 - 498
Cost:
£0.534 million / $2.134 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 292 tons, 4.2 %
- Guns: 292 tons, 4.2 %
Armour: 1,309 tons, 18.6 %
- Belts: 522 tons, 7.4 %
- Armament: 96 tons, 1.4 %
- Armour Deck: 663 tons, 9.5 %
- Conning Tower: 28 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,576 tons, 22.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,045 tons, 29.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,055 tons, 15.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 741 tons, 10.6 %
- Hull below water: 564 tons
- Hull void weights: 60 tons
- Hull above water: 31 tons
- On freeboard deck: 51 tons
- Above deck: 35 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,671 lbs / 3,479 Kg = 43.1 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 2.3 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 13.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.509 / 0.520
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 4.00 %, 20.54 ft / 6.26 m, 20.54 ft / 6.26 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 20.54 ft / 6.26 m, 20.54 ft / 6.26 m
- Aft deck: 62.00 %, 12.34 ft / 3.76 m, 12.34 ft / 3.76 m
- Quarter deck: 4.00 %, 12.34 ft / 3.76 m, 12.34 ft / 3.76 m
- Average freeboard: 15.12 ft / 4.61 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113.5 %
Waterplane Area: 15,203 Square feet or 1,412 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 85 lbs/sq ft or 415 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.48
- Overall: 1.01
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Completed in 1901, the PC-1 Class was powerful for it's time, but very dated in 1920.
Since the base hull tech is pre 1900, the comp hull has to stay 1.0 or more.
The idea is to refit it into a 'competive' cruiser.
Stylistic Disclosure-
I changed the bow from -15 to +15.
as far as I know it just changes the picture on the Freeboard tab.
I like the 'Cleaver' better.
The Old
Old engine is 2867 tons Complex Compound
Old Bunker is 1481
old deck armor is 275t
New engine if a compound is capped at
27.422knots and 2,346tons - can not have more SHP.
If limited to 26 to escort the new Stormbringer class, then only 1899 tons is used.
Conversion to Oil Firing with a turbogenerator
27.422 knots then is 1399tons, +349.75 for the turbogenerator, or 1749, saving 600 tons.
Refurbishment :
Engine -> oil fired electric drive, 1.576t
+ Turbogenerator 394t
Bunker :->1470t oil fuel
Protective Deck : Laminate 35mm onto existing Protective deck, both citadel and quarterdeck.
Laminations are 80% effective, so this adds
28mm
Forecastle : 25 slopes and crown
Citadel : 118 slopes and 53 crown
quarterdeck : 35mm slopes and crown
+388tons
All New
Guns & Mount- 291t
Gun armor - 96t
magazine -98t
Remove and Plate over submerged tubes
Misc Wt
10t - FC
25t - LR Radio
25t- Searchlight Tower
36t - 4T3 21" TT tubes
6t - CO2 Air Compressor A/C
25t - Enhanced Fire Suppression
25t - Enhanced Pumps
145t- Torpedo nets
394t- Turboelectric drive
Decks :
+5.26 Forecastle deck
+3.76 Weather Deck
+1.26 2nd deck, top of main belt, protective deck
-1.24 Bottom of main belt, 1st deck
-5.74 Engineering Deck
Pregame, I envisioned a series of 'scout cruisers' that would extend right up to start.
But I found that I had little appetite for weak, unarmored 3000 ton cruisers.
So as I trimmed my pre-game builds, I wound up with only 5, not ~12.
Having explored turning a 9000 ton
Bucephalus into a 'Sentry Cruiser',
I decided that a much cheaper way for similar results is upgrading this.
https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7045.0.htmlThis is the refurbished SC-3 & SC-4 "
Scythian" class
Completed in 1899, the Scythian class became rapidly outdated as engine tech changed.
Part of the Early stacked casement forward armament, they were completed with a high forecastle to keep the forward casements dry.
The Parthians view this as an opportunity to try a small hull 'sentry ship' design. This will serve as a picket for the Battleline, and given +4knots to allow positioning.
Batteries, like on a submarine, will be fitted to allow silent 'creep'.
The ship will be given depth charges and ASW sensors to evaluate the ability of larger vessels such as this to engage in ASW work
Armament will be revised to allow engagement of charging torpedo craft, but against cruisers the ship will remain behind friendly cruisers.
Since I could cram another 500 tons of misc wt into it, consideration was given to outfitting as a Sub tender, it was decided not to blur the roles.
The end costs about the same as new construction, but at half the materials cost.
Quote
Cost Basis :
A) 20% of original cost
B) Armament and machinery , BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost = twice the BP cost.
C ) Armor and functional miscellaneous weight, BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost is equal to BP cost.
D) Hull, fittings & equipment, No BP cost; $ cost is equal to (tonnage/5000)
E) Fuel, ammunition & stores; non-functional miscellaneous weight , No BP cost; $ cost is (tonnage/2000).
A) Original Cost $2.999
B) Engines and Armanent
New Turbo-Electric engines 100% oil : 636t
90mm replaced with 120mm
45mm replaced with 90AA
Total gun+mount: 113t
C) Armor and Functional Misc Wt
Turbogenerators : 159t
Gun Spray Shield : 5t
Magazine box unchanged, still 15t
Functional Misc Wt : 569t
D)Hull fittings & equip :
Unchanged
E) Fuel, Ammunition
Fuel : 1339t ~23days at cruising spd
Mag : 78t
Subtotals
A) $0.5998
B) $1.498, 0.749 BP
C) $0.733, 0.733 BP
D) N/A
E) $0.7085
Total :
$3.5393, 1.842 BPQuote
1899 Scout Cruiser Ninlil II, Parthian Scout Cruiser laid down 1899 (Engine 1920)
Displacement:
2,982 t light; 3,138 t standard; 3,882 t normal; 4,477 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(393.47 ft / 387.14 ft) x 41.01 ft x (15.09 / 16.94 ft)
(119.93 m / 118.00 m) x 12.50 m x (4.60 / 5.16 m)
Armament:
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
2 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 23.55lbs / 10.68kg shells, 350 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 709 lbs / 321 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
3rd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Box over magazines:
0.98" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 3 shafts, 18,186 shp / 13,567 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 7,800nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,339 tons
Complement:
245 - 319
Cost:
£0.224 million / $0.897 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 113 tons, 2.9 %
- Guns: 113 tons, 2.9 %
Armour: 20 tons, 0.5 %
- Armament: 5 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 15 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 636 tons, 16.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,644 tons, 42.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 899 tons, 23.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 569 tons, 14.7 %
- Hull below water: 334 tons
- Hull above water: 38 tons
- On freeboard deck: 135 tons
- Above deck: 62 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,623 lbs / 3,004 Kg = 125.6 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 12.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 83 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.36
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.67
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.567 / 0.583
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.44 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.68 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 23.62 ft / 7.20 m, 21.65 ft / 6.60 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 21.65 ft / 6.60 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Average freeboard: 16.43 ft / 5.01 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.6 %
Waterplane Area: 11,258 Square feet or 1,046 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 180 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 85 lbs/sq ft or 414 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.25
- Longitudinal: 3.02
- Overall: 1.36
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Completed in 1899, the Scythian class became rapidly outdated as engine tech changed.
Part of the Early stacked casement forward armament, they were completed with a high forecastle to keep the forward casements dry.
The Parthians view this as an opportunity to try a small hull 'sentry ship' design. This will serve as a picket for the Battleline, and given +4knots to allow positioning.
Batteries, like on a submarine, will be fitted to allow silent 'creep'.
The ship will be given depth charges and ASW sensors to evaluate the ability of larger vessels such as this to engage in ASW work
Armament will be revised to allow engagement of charging torpedo craft, but against cruisers the ship will remain behind friendly cruisers.
While consideration was given to outfitting as a Sub tender, it was decided not to blur the roles.
The old
Old Engine is 1644t Complex
Old Bunker is 1367t Oil/Coal
Old armor is 'box over magazines' at 15tons.
A) Original Cost $2.999
B) Engines and Armanent
New Turbo-Electric engines 100% oil : 636t
90mm replaced with 120mm
45mm replaced with 90AA
Total gun+mount: 113t
C) Armor and Functional Misc Wt
Turbogenerators : 159t
Gun Spray Shield : 5t
Magazine box unchanged, still 15t
Functional Misc Wt : 569t
D)Hull fittings & equip :
Unchanged
E) Fuel, Ammunition
Fuel : 1339t ~23days at cruising spd
Mag : 78t
Miscellaneous Weight :
30t - Void
12t FC
25t LR Radio
25t Searchlight tower
25t Kite Balloon
25t Hulesmeyer device
25t War Tuba
60t Depth Charges 1915
25t Enhanced Fire Suppression
3t CO2 Air Compressors
120t Torpedo nets
25t Additional pumps
159t Turbogenerator
15t Enhanced Hydrophones
15t Batteries
Edit : added misc wt, included the base cost...but did it wrong the first time... Forgot *20%, was paying full. No wonder the total seemed high.
The 1902
Samaritan class was the last of my scout cruisers, and the Turbine test bed.
The 1902 SC-5 Samaritan Class was such a repeat, I used the 1899 Springsharp, with a 1902 turbine engine...and was marginally faster.
Otherwise, it was a repeat of the 1899 SC-3 class,
Because it had the early turbine, unlike the 1899 class, turbo-electric drive is not
needed. But silent running on Batteries has some appeal still. The additional 159t func wt cost is trivial.
For one thing, if you're trying to use enhanced hydrophones to "hear" screws over the horizon, being able to shut down and creep on electrics is a distinct advantage.
Like the other 2 it has torpedo nets...why?
Because in the various wars, we see swarms of torpedo craft in islands. Parthia is unsure how effective long range acoustics (over or undersea) or radio proximity detection will be around islands, and the kite balloon won't work at night. The slow picket ship, advanced towards the general direction of the foe, might be overrun. But the nets still should work vs. poorly aimed torpedos - even net cutters need multiple hits to a panel to work, so that gives it some protection at a low low cost.
A) Original Cost $3.000
B) Engines and Armanent
New Turbo-Electric engines 100% oil : 636t
90mm replaced with 120mm
45mm replaced with 90AA
Total gun+mount: 113t
C) Armor and Functional Misc Wt
Turbogenerators : 159t
Gun Spray Shield : 5t
Magazine box unchanged, still 15t
Functional Misc Wt : 569t
D)Hull fittings & equip :
Unchanged
E) Fuel, Ammunition
Fuel : 1339t ~23days at cruising spd
Mag : 78t
Subtotals
A) $.60
B) $1.498, 0.749 BP
C) $0.733, 0.733 BP
D) N/A
E) $0.7085
Total :
$3.5395, 1.842 BP
Quote
1902 Samaritan, Parthian Scout Cruiser laid down 1902 (Engine 1920)
Displacement:
2,982 t light; 3,138 t standard; 3,882 t normal; 4,477 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(393.47 ft / 387.14 ft) x 41.01 ft x (15.09 / 16.94 ft)
(119.93 m / 118.00 m) x 12.50 m x (4.60 / 5.16 m)
Armament:
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
2 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 350 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 710 lbs / 322 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
3rd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Box over magazines:
0.98" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 18,186 shp / 13,567 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 7,800nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,339 tons
Complement:
245 - 319
Cost:
£0.224 million / $0.897 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 113 tons, 2.9 %
- Guns: 113 tons, 2.9 %
Armour: 23 tons, 0.6 %
- Armament: 6 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 18 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 636 tons, 16.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,611 tons, 41.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 900 tons, 23.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 599 tons, 15.4 %
- Hull below water: 334 tons
- Hull void weights: 30 tons
- Hull above water: 38 tons
- On freeboard deck: 135 tons
- Above deck: 62 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,646 lbs / 3,015 Kg = 126.1 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 12.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 84 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.36
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.67
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.567 / 0.583
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.44 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.68 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 23.62 ft / 7.20 m, 21.65 ft / 6.60 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 21.65 ft / 6.60 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Average freeboard: 16.43 ft / 5.01 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.6 %
Waterplane Area: 11,258 Square feet or 1,046 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 177 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 83 lbs/sq ft or 406 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.24
- Longitudinal: 2.99
- Overall: 1.35
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
The 1902 SC-5 Samaritan Class
is a repeat of the 1899 SC-3 class,
but served as the Turbine testbed.
Unlike the 1899 class, turbo-electric drive is not needed.
But silent running on Batteries has some appeal still.
For one thing, if you're trying to use enhanced hydrophones to "hear" screws over the horizon, being able to shut down and creep on electrics is a distinct advantage.
Old :
Engine : 1775
Bunker : 1360
Box over mag : 15t
Costs : Exactly the same.
Misc Wt -
30t Void
12t FC
25t LR Radio
25t Searchlight tower
25t Kite Balloon
25t Hulesmeyer Device
25t War Tuba
60t Depth Charges 1915
25t Enhanced Fire Suppression
3t CO2 Air Compressors
120t Torpedo Nets
25t Additional Pumps
159t Turbogenerator
15t Hydrophone
15t Batteries.
edit : fixed overpayment for A.
I'm in a lot of the same boat as you. My own SC-1 class of 3 ships (remaining) is sort of on the verge of being a viable destroyer leader unit, but they're also pretty horrendously undergunned, small, and whatnot. I've been debating whether to just relegate them to being a light escort in their current configuration, or spending the money to do the update to them.
The biggest 'expense' is engines, followed by armor.
If you are trying for 'current fleet speed' which is likely 27-28knots, and moving up.
Refitting and leaving them slow - not horrendous.
Refitting and making them fast - more pricy.
I thought I could save by simply putting in new reciprocating and not upgrading to turbo-electric.
But the turbines weigh less, and the turbogenerators fall under 'functional misc wt'. The entire thing
is cheaper than the equivalent power reciprocating.
Armament tonnage is surprisingly little, even on the Armored cruisers.
So if you've built newer weapons, it can worth it.
Key information - while the larger guns scale ME to Caliber, the 12" and less do not. ME increases much faster than caliber, reflecting the 1880-1905 improvements in powder, pressures and shell form/length/weight. Turrets also got faster at feed & training so better ROFs. Which makes replacing my old L40 guns with a smaller but longer and more modern pieces a 'win'. More ME, heavier shells, lower cross-section, better sectional density, better performance at range. Which is why I researched a series in 1913, expecting to do these refurbishments in 1915-1916.
So it's coming down to combat roles.
The PCs I'd like to be able to function as normal cruisers. Jefgte is putting 191mm on lots of designs, out East the Japanese like 8", so I'm using my 180mm.
With the Bucephalus the cost was mainly engines, a tiny bit guns, but the result was still inadequately armored..and that armor would be simple nickle-steel. Those 191mm guns would ventilate it. Plus I think Jefgte has a point about being 'to old'. Metallurgy changed allot in the mid 1890s, and there should be a qualitative difference between the 1894 and 1899 ships.
So for a combat role, they were too old and weak. The next Armored Cruiser Class, the Sparabara, has a 60mm deck and better belt, so I think I can make that viable, but I need to browse others Encyclopedias a bit to double check.
The SCs, they mean I do not need to build as many sentry frigates.
For the Main Fleet, Atlantic Fleet, and Pacific Fleets, I want at least 2 sentries, so they can leap frog and drift to listen for screws in transit, or anchor at opposite sides at rest.
That does not require high speed. So I can skimp on the costly engines.
For the Main fleet I would like spares as well. So I need like 8 'Sentry' vessels total, the SCs can be 1 per fleet, saving me 3 Bakr Frigates.
Quote...The PCs I'd like to be able to function as normal cruisers. Jefgte is putting 191mm on lots of designs, out East the Japanese like 8", so I'm using my 180mm...
The standard armament of Byzantine scout cruisers is 6x191, now in 2xT3 turrets (ala Panzerschiff)+ 6 or 8x120.
Quote...Plus I think Jefgte has a point about being 'to old'. Metallurgy changed allot in the mid 1890s, and there should be a qualitative difference between the 1894 and 1899 ships...
I will however rebuild the SC3 class (
Constanta) commissioned in 1904 to 27kts + new 191
HMS Hawkins guns.
1904-1921, It's really the ultimate borderline.
At this time I only have four 24kt PCs with 4x8" guns and some old ACs, only one of which can do 24kts. That said if the Parthians are paying attention, Japan did start developing a 8"/50 twin gun...
I like the idea of ASW picket cruisers, kind of like what I am doing with the old Chihayas.
Unofficially, I did note the twin 8". BUT, I try hard not to act on stuff that's not afloat.
As for the stuff afloat, I wasn't sure what the Japanese planned for the future, but you use the 8" and I kinda figured that would continue.
It seemed unlikely you would suddenly upgun to 9" or downgrade to 7", folks tend to stay about the same.
So...8" is reasonable, and 8" vs 191mm...close enough for lumping in the same evaluation.
Most of my planning focus is Byzantine, but I do peek at other fleets also. Not as much as I'd like.
But I have noticed a growing number of Byzantine ships with the 6x 191 arrangement.
Which is disturbing.
I really expected most players would have Cruisers more like the Romans. I figured I'd go with fewer but slightly beefier. My 165mm is a good heavy gun, and for the FC ranges
we had, just fine. With the wars we've had, with lots of torpedo craft, it seemed a better choice than my 180mm.
So I've moved generally down to 165mm, then turn around and see the Byzantines fielding more 191mm...while FC ranges keep moving up, making that gun more valuable.
So the PC rebuilds use the 1913 180mm, decent shell, good MV, and good train rate. I may wind up making a new 180mm with a heftier shell, but for now this will work.
The newer PCs will be able to have the newer 0.9 hull, and so the superimposed "B" and "Y" guns, for a 6 gun broadside.
Just to share,
I've been tinkering with a future cruiser design, now variant "H".
Not sure on the year, I'm working on the Tech, but could finish in HY2 1921, or HY2 1922.
But yes, twin larger guns look to be in my future.
Oh, and I'd like to note the 8000tons standard is just an odd and unexpected number.
I'd really like this to come in at 7500 light.
Well actually I'd like the same ship at 6000 light, but that doesn't seem doable.
Quote
Valiant, Parthian 1920 Cruiser Tech laid down 1923
Displacement:
7,598 t light; 8,000 t standard; 8,868 t normal; 9,562 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(524.67 ft / 518.37 ft) x 53.31 ft x (21.85 / 23.15 ft)
(159.92 m / 158.00 m) x 16.25 m x (6.66 / 7.06 m)
Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 43.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,695 lbs / 769 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 368.04 ft / 112.18 m 13.62 ft / 4.15 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 109 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -15.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 5.71" / 145 mm
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.77" / 45 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.77" / 45 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.51" / 140 mm, Aft 1.77" / 45 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 73,692 shp / 54,974 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 7,880nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,562 tons
Complement:
456 - 594
Cost:
£2.201 million / $8.805 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 409 tons, 4.6 %
- Guns: 409 tons, 4.6 %
Armour: 1,739 tons, 19.6 %
- Belts: 961 tons, 10.8 %
- Armament: 106 tons, 1.2 %
- Armour Deck: 605 tons, 6.8 %
- Conning Towers: 67 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 2,463 tons, 27.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,618 tons, 29.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,271 tons, 14.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 369 tons, 4.2 %
- Hull below water: 40 tons
- Hull void weights: 65 tons
- Hull above water: 38 tons
- On freeboard deck: 135 tons
- Above deck: 91 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,504 lbs / 3,404 Kg = 42.2 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 14.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.514 / 0.523
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.72 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 19.00 %, 25.26 ft / 7.70 m, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m
- Forward deck: 44.00 %, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m, 20.34 ft / 6.20 m
- Aft deck: 27.00 %, 12.14 ft / 3.70 m, 12.14 ft / 3.70 m
- Quarter deck: 10.00 %, 12.14 ft / 3.70 m, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
- Average freeboard: 18.53 ft / 5.65 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 107.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139.7 %
Waterplane Area: 18,651 Square feet or 1,733 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 89 lbs/sq ft or 433 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.84
- Longitudinal: 1.59
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
With a long forecastle and "distributed" I was hoping for a HMS Tiger layout.
Or at least that's the idea.
Rotating weight* of each 180mm 2G mount is : 110.5t
Which is ... slow. So a 11t power assist unit is fitted to each mount.
(*sans barbette armor)
Main belt is 4m high, from 2.2 to -1.8
This means it rises 1m above the protective deck.
Main belt is outsloped 15 degrees. =4.15m
This Outsloped 120mm belt + 45mm deck is expected to
provide superior protection than the battery or conn armor.
Misc Wieght
65t - Const Reserve
25t - LR Radio
41t - FC
25t - Searchlight Tower
36t - 4T3 21" TT
50t - 2x Kite Balloon
44t - Power Assist for Main battery
5t - Paravanes
8t - CO2 Air compressor
25t - enhanced Fire suppression
25t - Extra Pumps.
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
Decks
+6.2 Forecastle
+3.7 Weather Deck
+2.2 Top main belt
+1.2 Protective Deck Crown
- 1.3 Lower Edge Protective Deck
-1.8 Bottom main belt
-5.0 Engineering
-5.94 Double Bottom
[/quote]
The following ship, even after refit, is 'borderline'.
BUT it fits a need.
The Byzantines have fielded some of what I would call "light armored cruisers". The Harads were built 1914-1915, while the Foros were rebuilt in 1917, So the Parthians should know about them and have some idea of what they are.
The original idea was to update the
Buchephalus[/u]...but with thin decks and belt, it really would not be worth it.
The Sparabaras have better armor. So, the Byzantines are Twin 235, but they are 1896 models ...which means 1880 TECH.... and twin mounts, which slows their effective rate of fire and lowers their ME and penetration....and I have better armor.
While my old Mithradates and Asdar Classes match up, Byzantine has more vessels in this class than I do, and overall I don't match up well in this category. So a couple more hulls to patch me through will be welcome.
I have a number of 230mm designs for that role, but am choosing to build the bigger 255mm Zemaka which are better rounded, and I think can reasonable charge and engage his 4x 343mm ships- barring an unlucky hit.
1899 AC Refit
Quote
Cost Basis :
A) 20% of original cost
B) Armament and machinery , BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost = twice the BP cost.
C ) Armor and functional miscellaneous weight, BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost is equal to BP cost.
D) Hull, fittings & equipment, No BP cost; $ cost is equal to (tonnage/5000)
E) Fuel, ammunition & stores; non-functional miscellaneous weight , No BP cost; $ cost is (tonnage/2000).
A) Original Cost $9.1 * 0.2 = $1.82
B) Engines and Armanent
New Turbo-Electric engines 100% oil : 2003
240L40 replaced with 230L44.
165L45 replaced with 165L43
90L45 replaced with 90L50 AA
15L60 added.
New guns and mounts : 777t
Subtotal : 2780
$5.56, 2.780 BP
C) Armor and Functional Misc Wt
Turret & mount armor : 176
Additional strake belt armor, laminated deck armor : 380
Turbogenerators : 501
Other Functional Misc Wt : 279
Subtotal : 1336
$1.336, 1.336 BP
D)Hull fittings & equip :
Old : 2663
New : 3,149 (+93 bulge steel) : 3242
Change : 486
subtotal : 486/5000 = $.0972
OR 3,242 / 5000 = $0.6484
E) Fuel, Ammunition
Fuel : 1816t ~24days at cruising spd
Mag : no changed
Subtotal : 1816/2000 = $0.908
A) $1.82
B) $5.56, 2.780 BP
C) $1.336, 1.336 BP
D) $0.6484
E) $0.908
SubTotal :
$10.2724,
4.116 BP
Total Cost
$10.27,
4.12 BP Quote
ACR 7 Sparbara Refurb 1920, Parthian Armored Cruiser laid down 1899 (Engine 1920)
Displacement:
9,575 t light; 10,119 t standard; 11,128 t normal; 11,935 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(454.69 ft / 447.83 ft) x 63.98 ft (Bulges 73.82 ft) x (20.67 / 22.06 ft)
(138.59 m / 136.50 m) x 19.50 m (Bulges 22.50 m) x (6.30 / 6.72 m)
Armament:
4 - 9.06" / 230 mm 44.0 cal guns - 392.42lbs / 178.00kg shells, 121 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 170 per gun
Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck aft
8 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 170 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1913 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 450 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1911 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,485 lbs / 1,581 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.31" / 135 mm 322.44 ft / 98.28 m 11.71 ft / 3.57 m
Ends: 1.38" / 35 mm 125.36 ft / 38.21 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 196.85 ft / 60.00 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 111 % of normal length
- Hull Bulges:
0.51" / 13 mm 322.44 ft / 98.28 m 15.26 ft / 4.65 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 2.56" / 65 mm 5.31" / 135 mm
2nd: 5.31" / 135 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
3rd: 3.94" / 100 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.20" / 5 mm - -
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.76" / 70 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.38" / 35 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.31" / 135 mm, Aft 3.54" / 90 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, plus batteries,
Electric motors, 3 shafts, 57,286 shp / 42,736 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 7,600nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,816 tons
Complement:
541 - 704
Cost:
£0.867 million / $3.468 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 777 tons, 7.0 %
- Guns: 777 tons, 7.0 %
Armour: 2,821 tons, 25.3 %
- Belts: 1,197 tons, 10.8 %
- Bulges: 93 tons, 0.9 %
- Armament: 460 tons, 4.1 %
- Armour Deck: 975 tons, 8.8 %
- Conning Towers: 95 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 2,003 tons, 18.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,149 tons, 28.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,553 tons, 14.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 825 tons, 7.4 %
- Hull below water: 638 tons
- Bulge void weights: 45 tons
- Hull above water: 9 tons
- On freeboard deck: 5 tons
- Above deck: 128 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
13,937 lbs / 6,322 Kg = 37.5 x 9.1 " / 230 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.40
Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 14.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.25
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.87
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.570 / 0.573
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.07 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.16 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 15.00 %, 25.59 ft / 7.80 m, 23.82 ft / 7.26 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 23.82 ft / 7.26 m, 22.05 ft / 6.72 m
- Aft deck: 52.00 %, 13.85 ft / 4.22 m, 13.85 ft / 4.22 m
- Quarter deck: 13.00 %, 13.85 ft / 4.22 m, 13.85 ft / 4.22 m
- Average freeboard: 17.27 ft / 5.26 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117.4 %
Waterplane Area: 20,374 Square feet or 1,893 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 115 lbs/sq ft or 563 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.79
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
Completed in 1901, she was fast for her time.
Now she is slow, underarmed and underarmored.
The notes of the original indicated it was supposed to be a mulit-level protected deck, 20/40, rather than
a single 60mm. The decks should work up to about 10" shells.
The Byzantines have for years fielded a number of 6x 240mm, ~27tkt heavy fleet scouts, what the Parthians would call 'light armored cruisers'. The Parthians counter these with the Mithradantes and Andar Classes with 10". The Byzantines also have some odd hybrid cruisers with 343m which continue to bother the Parthians.
old engines : 2822
old bunker : 1953
old main magazines : 106
Under Refurbishment, Waterline can be 'raised or lowered' by 10%.
That is apparently a displacement thing.
I guess it means I can make the draft higher/lower, but I move freeboard
to reflect that. That would actually echo how a lot of interwar ships had additional weight added - they
just sat lower in the water, frequently submerging the top of their belts - or you could blister the hull,
reclaiming freeboard.
To provide floatation, a bulge from the bottom of the belt at -1.65 to the keel at -6.3 is added.
To give that 'weight', 13mm of hull material is added. =93t This is accounted for under HULL & Fittings.
It does mean I could raise the vessel by 0.7m, changing freeboard to average 5.26
and draft to 6.3
That would also change the bottom of the belt from -1.6m to -.9m. Not good.
To compensate for the then-shallow belt, I would have to add a strake of armor below the main belt.
Which is doable.
And it gets the seakeeping to barely doable at 27 knots.
New Engines : 2003
New Bunkers : 1816
The main battery is replaced by the 1913 230L44 178kg
This was developed specifically to replace these ancient 240L40s.
The secondary battery is replaced by 1913 165L43QF 65kg
8x 1911 AA guns are fitted in place of the 12 Anti-boat guns.
Sited in 4 spots - 2 above the main guns, and 2 amid ships,
the new two-gun mount is used.
15mm are fitted for dockside/boarding security and anti-strafing.
New Guns & Mounts : 777t
New Turret Armor : + 75t on 165mm = 176
At this point,
a strake of +.75m high x 135mm armor can be added below the main belt.
Belt goes from 667t to 845t = 178t
End belts are removed and replaced with 35mm : 52t
Keeping Byzantine 191mm shells out of the casement area is desirable,
but keeping the Damas class 254mm out of the engines is critical.
So while the superstructure is being remodeled, 10mm of deckarmor plates are laminated on top
of the existing protective deck. Lamination counts as 80%, so boosts to effectively 48mm.
The seperate 20mm deck above the casement would add another 50%, giving 58mm vs plunging fire.
10mm is also added to the forecastel and quarterdeck, to effectively 33mm. =150t
Misc Wt :
45t reserve
78t FC
25t LR Radio
25t Searchlight Tower
5t Paravanes
9t CO2 Air Conditioning
137 Torpedo Nets
501 Turbo Generator
Decks (after raise):
+6.72 : Forecastle deck
+4.22 : Weather deck, 20mm over casements
+1.92 Top of main belt.guards against diving shells against slope of protective deck.
+1.72 : Gun deck, crown of 40mm protective deck, top of 25mm decks and end belts
-0.78 : 3rd deck, Bottom of protective deck
-.90 bottom main belt
-1.65 Bottom additional strake
-3.78 : 2nd Deck
-5.8 : Engineering Deck
Quote...So, the Byzantines are Twin 235, but they are 1896 models ...which means 1880 TECH.... and twin mounts, which slows their effective rate of fire and lowers their ME and penetration....and I have better armor...
I could replace T2x234 Mlle 1896 with T3x191 Mlle 1920 (HMS
Hawkins guns)
Yep, you could do that.
I expect those would fit in the same mounts.
I was hoping my 230L44 as a single would fit in twin 165 or 180 spots....but no it does not.
But multiple 191s should fit.
I'm debating a new version of my 180mm to retrofit to my cruisers to better counter your 191mm.
The 1910 tech 180L43 has an 85kg shell and good MV, but the 191 has a bit more per-shell punch.
I had really wanted to lay down some 10-12,000 LACs , with either 6-8x 230 or 8-12x180, but I didnot have the budget for it.
We shall see what the future brings.
Right now I'm working on the 1921 rebuild of the Mithradates / Rustam class.
Then the PC-3/4s ... etc
Hmm, I'll have to wait on the Rustam and Asdar classes until HY2 1921.
Apparently I neglected to design a twin 255L47 mount to replace their guns with.
Ironic since I used the Free on a 4-Gun, Paid for a 4-gun, a 3-gun, and a 2-gun.
Still, I have plenty of other needs, so I'll wait on those two.
I mainly explored the AC refit to decide to keep or scrap it. I guess I will keep it, more useful than a 4500ton cruiser.
However, I will likely put it in 1921.
I think this might be my final 1920 refurbish class.
Parthian protected cruisers were meant to be somewhat unusual.
'Big' at the 6000ton mark, with ranges over 7000nm for potential commerce raiding - or patrolling Africa/Indonesia.
and heavy weapons batteries of QF guns.
The PC-III "Rakhsh", PC-IV "Nisaean" was completed in 1903.
They were the last of the reciprocating protective cruisers.
They also introduced the Parthian typical medium gun arrangement.
4 guns on centerline, with two 3-gun arrays on each side.
The arrangement allows 6 guns to bear forward, and 4-6 to bear aft,
with a 7 gun broadside.
The same deck 'spots' will be used, but heavier 180mm will be fitted to better counter
the trends in Byzantine ships to 191mm.
1 (3) 5
A (B) (X)Y
2 (4) 6
Quote
Cost Basis :
A) 20% of original cost
B) Armament and machinery , BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost = twice the BP cost.
C ) Armor and functional miscellaneous weight, BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost is equal to BP cost.
D) Hull, fittings & equipment, No BP cost; $ cost is equal to (tonnage/5000)
E) Fuel, ammunition & stores; non-functional miscellaneous weight , No BP cost; $ cost is (tonnage/2000).
A) Original Cost $6* 0.2 = $1.20
B) Engines and Armanent
New Turbo-Electric engines 100% oil : 1762
165L45 replaced with 180L43
60L50 replaced with 90L50 AA
15L60 added.
New guns and mounts : 457
Subtotal : 2219
$4.428, 2.219 BP
C) Armor and Functional Misc Wt
Turret & mount armor : 135
Additional strake belt armor, laminated deck armor : 170
Turbogenerators : 441
Other Functional Misc Wt : 163
Subtotal : 909
$0.909, 0.909 BP
D)Hull fittings & equip :
No Change
E) Fuel, Ammunition
Fuel : 1409 ~27days at cruising spd
Mag : no changed
Subtotal : 1409/2000 = $0.7045
A) $1.20
B) $4.428, 2.219 BP
C) $0.909, 0.909 BP
D) n/a
E) $0.7045
SubTotal :
$7.2715,
3.128 BP
Total Cost
$7.27,
3.13 BP Quote
PC-2, Parthia Protected Cruiser Series I laid down 1902 (Engine 1920)
Displacement:
5,998 t light; 6,307 t standard; 7,090 t normal; 7,716 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(492.13 ft / 475.72 ft) x 49.21 ft x (21.33 / 22.73 ft)
(150.00 m / 145.00 m) x 15.00 m x (6.50 / 6.93 m)
Armament:
10 - 7.09" / 180 mm 43.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 140 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1911 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1899 Model
6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,973 lbs / 895 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.56" / 65 mm 428.15 ft / 130.50 m 12.01 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 138 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
3rd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.57" / 40 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.57" / 40 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 3.54" / 90 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 50,398 shp / 37,597 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 7,900nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,409 tons
Complement:
386 - 502
Cost:
£0.618 million / $2.474 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 457 tons, 6.4 %
- Guns: 457 tons, 6.4 %
Armour: 1,132 tons, 16.0 %
- Belts: 513 tons, 7.2 %
- Armament: 135 tons, 1.9 %
- Armour Deck: 456 tons, 6.4 %
- Conning Tower: 28 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,762 tons, 24.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,014 tons, 28.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,091 tons, 15.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 634 tons, 8.9 %
- Hull below water: 466 tons
- Hull void weights: 30 tons
- Hull above water: 6 tons
- On freeboard deck: 36 tons
- Above deck: 96 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
5,770 lbs / 2,617 Kg = 32.4 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 14.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.96
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.497 / 0.507
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.67 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 5.00 %, 20.54 ft / 6.26 m, 20.54 ft / 6.26 m
- Forward deck: 50.00 %, 20.54 ft / 6.26 m, 20.54 ft / 6.26 m
- Aft deck: 40.00 %, 12.34 ft / 3.76 m, 12.34 ft / 3.76 m
- Quarter deck: 5.00 %, 12.34 ft / 3.76 m, 12.34 ft / 3.76 m
- Average freeboard: 16.85 ft / 5.14 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 109.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129.7 %
Waterplane Area: 15,556 Square feet or 1,445 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 84 lbs/sq ft or 409 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.84
- Longitudinal: 1.59
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Old Engine : 2546
Old Bunker : 1488
New Turboelectric Turbines : 1762
New TurboGenerator : 441
New Bunker : 1409
Replace old 165mm with 180mm
100+357 = 457t guns & mounts
135t - weapon Armor
The old mine deck is removed,
and the weight put towards
a layer of extra deck armor.
+15mm deck laminated over citadel and quarterdeck : +170t
This makes the protective deck armor
at the citadel an effective 37mm on the crown and 102mm on the slopes.
Misc Wt
30t - Misc Wt
46t - FC
25t - LR Radio
25t - Searchlight tower
36t - 4TT3 21"
6t - CO2 Compressor AC
441t - Turbogenerator
25t - Extra Pumps
Intended as a Protected Cruiser for the fleet
The vessel is fitted with a protective deck, 90mm on the slopes and 25mm on the flat
25t - Long range radio
30t - 0.5% increased ventilation
24t - Torpedoes 4 xT2 (8)
160t - minedeck on 2nd deck aft, 2 mine rails w/80 mines ea. drop through ports in stern
60t - construction reserve
+5.26 Forecastle deck
+3.76 Weather Deck
+1.26 2nd deck, top of main belt, protective deck
-1.24 Bottom of main belt, 1st deck
-5.74 Engineering Deck
Key to deciding to scrap or keep the 1897
Tortoise Class is what sort of investment is needed in 1921 to make it a viable
rear area vessel.
So I had to explore what it would take to refurbish the ship.
For 3.47 BP, I can get ~10 years of a ship that would take a substantial vessel to 'kill'.
As an 1897 laydown, and a 1899 completion, getting more than 30 years out of the hull is likely unreasonable.
I'd actually rather spend 7 for one of those Norse CDS for the same role but 20 years.
BUT...3.5 x 2 is more 'doable' than 7 x 2 right now.
Quote
Tortoise, Parthia Predreadnaught laid down 1897 (Engine 1921)
Displacement:
11,423 t light; 12,147 t standard; 13,090 t normal; 13,844 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(360.89 ft / 354.33 ft) x 85.30 ft x (24.61 / 25.78 ft)
(110.00 m / 108.00 m) x 26.00 m x (7.50 / 7.86 m)
Armament:
4 - 11.81" / 300 mm 41.5 cal guns - 870.83lbs / 395.00kg shells, 130 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1912 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 7.09" / 180 mm 43.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 145 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1913 Model
10 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck centre
2 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
6 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1911 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1918 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,879 lbs / 2,667 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 212.60 ft / 64.80 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 3.94" / 100 mm 141.70 ft / 43.19 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Upper: 8.27" / 210 mm 212.60 ft / 64.80 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.8" / 325 mm 6.50" / 165 mm 12.6" / 320 mm
2nd: 8.27" / 210 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 4.13" / 105 mm
Forecastle: 1.57" / 40 mm Quarter deck: 1.57" / 40 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 12.60" / 320 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 22,133 shp / 16,511 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 6,048nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,697 tons
Complement:
611 - 795
Cost:
£0.890 million / $3.561 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 862 tons, 6.6 %
- Guns: 862 tons, 6.6 %
Armour: 4,792 tons, 36.6 %
- Belts: 2,190 tons, 16.7 %
- Armament: 968 tons, 7.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,483 tons, 11.3 %
- Conning Tower: 151 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 762 tons, 5.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,022 tons, 30.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,667 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 984 tons, 7.5 %
- Hull below water: 390 tons
- Hull void weights: 110 tons
- Hull above water: 237 tons
- On freeboard deck: 105 tons
- Above deck: 142 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,941 lbs / 11,767 Kg = 31.5 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 4.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.49
Metacentric height 7.8 ft / 2.4 m
Roll period: 12.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.22
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.616 / 0.622
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.15 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.82 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 17.95 ft / 5.47 m, 16.31 ft / 4.97 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 16.31 ft / 4.97 m, 14.67 ft / 4.47 m
- Aft deck: 40.00 %, 14.67 ft / 4.47 m, 14.67 ft / 4.47 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 14.67 ft / 4.47 m, 16.31 ft / 4.97 m
- Average freeboard: 15.45 ft / 4.71 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 53.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 104.5 %
Waterplane Area: 22,438 Square feet or 2,085 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 148 lbs/sq ft or 725 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 3.17
- Overall: 1.10
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
The Tortoise and Turtle were names for slow, armored terrapins.
The rebuild is intended to allow them to serve as Coast Defense or 'Escort' Armored cruisers.
The Byzantine 345mm ships are a concern, as these would fare very poorly, but in most other areas they could be successful.
If forced into offensive use, a nighttime battle is actually preferred, trying to close the range to where the old guns could be used to good effect.
The 300L41 was designed as a replacement for the 345L45 and 305L40, with design work completing in 1912, just in time for the expected 1913 refits.
However in 1913, the Expeditionary forces started siphoning the spare money up.
The 300L41.5 is only slightly better than the 305L40.
Commonality of guns, and the much improved turret designs of the later tech would be the reasons for the change
For the 345L35 though, the 300L41.5 is a great upgrade.
Penetration improves by 25% at range, as the much faster longer shell carries KE better.
The 180mm casements are retained, but the newer 180L43 in the +22% casements are fitted.
It is the hope of the planning section that for longer ranges coming into play, the 180mm can be used for spotting fire, creating 'ladders' and allowing the 300L41.5 to fire for effect.
Intended for more "Rear area" use,
the refit cost is to be kept down.
Old Engines : 1878
Old Bunker : 1735
Old Main Mag : 265
Speed : Increased to the battleline 20knots
Turboelectric Turbines : 762t
Turbogenerator : 191
Bunker : 1697t
Gun + Mount : 285+577 = 862
Gun rotating armor : 496
magazines : 462
Armor decks :
15mm is laminated onto all 4 decks, providing +12mm armor.
Fore : 25+15, eff 37mm
Upper Citadel : 25+15, eff 37mm
Main Armor : 55 + 15, eff 67mm
(Total vs. Vert pen : 37/2 + 67 = 86mm)
(Main belt + 320 +
Aft : 25+15, eff 37mm
Total : +437tons of armor
Miscellaneous Weight :
87t : Fire Control
25t : LR Radio
25t : Searchlight tower
25t : Hulesmeyer
25t : War Tuba
50t : 2x Kite Balloons
5t : Paravanes
12t : CO2 Air Compressor AC
25t : Enhanced Fire Ext.
200t : Marine Barracks
36t : Torpedo flat, stern under armor. 2x TT 21" each broadside, 12x 21" TT
191t : Turbogenerator
108t : Torpedo Nets
25t : Enhanced Pumps
30t : 2 Enhanced Hydrophone stations.
+4.47 Weather deck, Top of upper belt, upper 25mm armor deck
+1.97 Third Deck, Top of main belt, crown of protective deck 40mm
-0.53 Second Deck, edge of protective deck
-1.03 Bottom of Main Belt
-3.05 First Deck
-7.05 Engineering Deck
COSTS :
Base : $2.3
Arm + Machine : 762+862 : $3.248 , 1.624 BP
Armor & Func Wt : 496+437+ (984-110) : 1807
$1.807, 1.807
Hull : N/A
Fuel, Ammo, NF Wt : 1697+ 462+ 110= 2229
$1.115
SubTotal :
$8.47, 3.467 BP
Total : $ 8.47, 3.47 BP
Were the original stats of the Tortoise-class ever posted?
https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7042.0.html (https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7042.0.html)
Yep, 2nd Entry in the Parthian Battleships.
I have started wondering if instead of Marines embarked where
all the stokers once bunked, , an Amphibious Command Center might be useful.
Thanks.
Hmm, since it's 1921, I could redo the math for the Sparbara as the engines will be ~30 tons cheaper....or be lazy. I like lazy.
For comparison with the Tortoise, I've tinkered with a bunch of small CDS designs.
This is more the upper end, but gives the idea. The lower end is 6500 tons, which is probably more reasonable
One of these at Khasab (5.5m draft) , one in the shallows at Medan, one up river at Palembang, one upriver at Sofala, one in the Orinoco delta.
all at narrow points where opposing vessels would need to pass.
Basically any ship that could beat it would not be able to reach it. Add in that attackers won't have maps of the local depths, and I expect they would tie up substantial opposing resources.
Which means DDs or MTBS have to go searching those areas, which I can counter. Plus a short ship with turbo-electric, TDS, and torpedo nets would be a hard target.
Per Jefgte's mantra, I put it at 20knots, so in a pinch it can tag along with the battle line.
The layout is
Dunkerque with the main battery all forward, and secondary guns on centerline aft.
With the turbo electric, the ship could even back at full speed while firing forward. Which would be an interesting maneuver.
Still at ~9000 tons, I can build 1 for the same 'cost' as refitting the two elderly predreads.
So I'll build these later....but figured I'd put this up.
Quote
GateKeeper II, Parthian Litorral Raider laid down 1921
Displacement:
8,900 t light; 9,690 t standard; 10,030 t normal; 10,302 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(393.70 ft / 387.14 ft) x 70.87 ft (Bulges 77.43 ft) x (18.04 / 18.50 ft)
(120.00 m / 118.00 m) x 21.60 m (Bulges 23.60 m) x (5.50 / 5.64 m)
Armament:
6 - 10.04" / 255 mm 47.0 cal guns - 599.66lbs / 272.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1921 Model
2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1921 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
6 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 350 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1921 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
1 raised mount
1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, forward deck aft
1 double raised mount
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1921 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 10,000 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1921 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,565 lbs / 2,071 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm 251.64 ft / 76.70 m 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
Ends: 1.38" / 35 mm 135.47 ft / 41.29 m 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.50" / 38 mm 251.64 ft / 76.70 m 21.42 ft / 6.53 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 46.59 ft / 14.20 m
- Hull Bulges:
0.35" / 9 mm 251.64 ft / 76.70 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.27" / 210 mm 4.72" / 120 mm 7.48" / 190 mm
2nd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 2.95" / 75 mm
3rd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 2.95" / 75 mm
4th: 0.51" / 13 mm 0.24" / 6 mm -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.56" / 65 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 2.56" / 65 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 7.87" / 200 mm, Aft 1.97" / 50 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 18,091 shp / 13,496 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 4,960nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 612 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
500 - 651
Cost:
£2.026 million / $8.102 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,003 tons, 10.0 %
- Guns: 1,003 tons, 10.0 %
Armour: 3,039 tons, 30.3 %
- Belts: 1,025 tons, 10.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 298 tons, 3.0 %
- Bulges: 38 tons, 0.4 %
- Armament: 617 tons, 6.2 %
- Armour Deck: 961 tons, 9.6 %
- Conning Towers: 99 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 636 tons, 6.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,511 tons, 35.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,129 tons, 11.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 711 tons, 7.1 %
- Hull below water: 317 tons
- Bulge void weights: 65 tons
- Hull above water: 103 tons
- On freeboard deck: 75 tons
- Above deck: 151 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,340 lbs / 7,412 Kg = 32.3 x 10.0 " / 255 mm shells or 3.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.35
Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 14.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.649 / 0.650
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.68 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m, 15.58 ft / 4.75 m
- Forward deck: 35.00 %, 15.58 ft / 4.75 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 14.11 ft / 4.30 m
- Average freeboard: 14.32 ft / 4.36 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 110.3 %
Waterplane Area: 20,998 Square feet or 1,951 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 143 lbs/sq ft or 697 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.93
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Armor :
One deck level is unarmored
the Main belt covers from 1.25 to -2m
the TDS is the 1m deep bulge below the belt, and then 5m deep interior bulge backed by laminated 2x19mm.
This gives a 6m deep expansion space.
A torpedo net is also fitted.
The torpedo defenses include
electric drive and a 5:1 LB,
resulting in an extradinarily
manueverable vessel.
90t Construction Reserve
Engines :
25% coal (or wood) fired boilers
provide nearly 3,000shp and manage 12.25 knots alone.
The oil fired engines manage
roughly 16.75 knots on their own.
The electric drive allows range to be stretched 15%.
101t FC
25t LR Radio
25t Searchlight Tower
50t 2x Kite Balloon
25t Enhanced Fire Suppression
9t CO2 A/C
25t Enhanced Fire Suppression
64t Marine Squad
5t Paravanes
25t Enhanced Pumps
118t Torpedo Nets
159t TurboGenerators
15t Enhanced Hydrophones
Decks :
4.00 Weatherdeck
1.25m Armor Deck, top belt, TDS
-1.25m 1st Deck
-2.00m Lower Belt
-4.5 Engineering
-5.28 Double Bottom
[/quote
Predreads can work in open waters but they won't be nearly as suitable for a riverine environment. It might be worth considering.
Quote...Per Jefgte's mantra, I put it at 20knots, so in a pinch it can tag along with the battle line...
Following Parthian BBs is good, but maneuvering freely around battleships is even better.
=> Stand in front of enemy cruisers or torpedo boat attacks.
Byzantine BBs are 21kts, colonial BBs (ex PDN) 22 to 23kts, cruisers or AGBs are (or will be) 24kts minimum, 27kts if possible.
(The 21kts cruisers will be scrapped).
I agree with Jefgte's logic.
In this case, the vessels are supposed to operate solo or in pairs as leaders of local task forces.
If they were meant as a 'close escort' I would indeed be looking for +3 knots over the battlewagons.
The provision of 20knots is just so that if I need to press them into service with the main fleet,
they can, and keep up in maneuvers / sprints.
Next up, the update of the two 1904 Protected Cruisers.
There's some confusion in my naming system, these are either Series II or Series III in my starting PCs.
Anyhow, increasing it's speed to 28knots requires slightly modifying the bow height - the old bow is flat, so I need to raise it 1m.
As long as it's <= 1.5m from the foredeck, I figure guns can fire flat over it.
That adds a bit of cost, but worth it to get seakeeping >1.0.
What is interesting is the preceeding vessel was able to hit 29knots, with 1.05 seakeeping.
The difference seems to be the turbogenerator acts as ballast. This ship started with turbines and so does not
need the turbogenerator, so lacks 450 tons of ballast...
On the otherhand, that frees up more weight to laminate on as new protective deck armor. While not as good as a brand new deck, it pushes the armor into the decent range.
Quote
Cost Basis :
A) 20% of original cost
B) Armament and machinery , BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost = twice the BP cost.
C ) Armor and functional miscellaneous weight, BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost is equal to BP cost.
D) Hull, fittings & equipment, No BP cost; $ cost is equal to (tonnage/5000)
E) Fuel, ammunition & stores; non-functional miscellaneous weight , No BP cost; $ cost is (tonnage/2000).
A) Original Cost $6* 0.2 = $1.20
B) Engines and Armanent
New Turbines engines 100% oil : 1546
165L45 replaced with 180L43
60L50 replaced with 90L50 AA
15L60 added.
New guns and mounts : 481.23
Subtotal : 2027.23
$4.054, 2.027 BP
C) Armor and Functional Misc Wt
Turret & mount armor : 160.2
Additional strake belt armor, laminated deck armor : 465
Other Functional Misc Wt : 366
Subtotal : 991.2
$0.991, 0.991 BP
D)Hull fittings & equip :
2026/5000 = $0.4052
E) Fuel, Ammunition
Fuel : 1885 ~27days at cruising spd
Mag : 191
Subtotal : 2076/2000 = $1.038
A) $1.20
B) $4.054, 2.027 BP
C) $0.991, 0.991 BP
D) $0.4052
E) $1.038
SubTotal :
$7.6882
3.018 BP
Total Cost
$7.69,
3.02 BPQuote
PC-3, Parthia Protected Cruiser Series II laid down 1904 (Engine 1921)
Displacement:
5,933 t light; 6,271 t standard; 7,318 t normal; 8,155 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(492.13 ft / 475.72 ft) x 49.21 ft x (21.33 / 23.18 ft)
(150.00 m / 145.00 m) x 15.00 m x (6.50 / 7.07 m)
Armament:
10 - 7.09" / 180 mm 43.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 140 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
6 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1911 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,021 lbs / 917 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.56" / 65 mm 428.15 ft / 130.50 m 12.01 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 138 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.56" / 65 mm 1.57" / 40 mm 1.57" / 40 mm
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.56" / 65 mm
Forecastle: 2.56" / 65 mm Quarter deck: 2.56" / 65 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 3.54" / 90 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 44,884 shp / 33,484 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 10,610nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,885 tons
Complement:
395 - 514
Cost:
£0.596 million / $2.384 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 481 tons, 6.6 %
- Guns: 481 tons, 6.6 %
Armour: 1,454 tons, 19.9 %
- Belts: 513 tons, 7.0 %
- Armament: 157 tons, 2.1 %
- Armour Deck: 755 tons, 10.3 %
- Conning Tower: 29 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,546 tons, 21.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,990 tons, 27.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,385 tons, 18.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 462 tons, 6.3 %
- Hull below water: 76 tons
- Hull void weights: 60 tons
- Hull above water: 185 tons
- On freeboard deck: 42 tons
- Above deck: 99 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,028 lbs / 3,188 Kg = 39.5 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 14.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.98
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.513 / 0.526
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.67 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 5.00 %, 23.82 ft / 7.26 m, 22.18 ft / 6.76 m
- Forward deck: 32.00 %, 22.18 ft / 6.76 m, 20.54 ft / 6.26 m
- Aft deck: 58.00 %, 12.34 ft / 3.76 m, 12.34 ft / 3.76 m
- Quarter deck: 5.00 %, 12.34 ft / 3.76 m, 12.34 ft / 3.76 m
- Average freeboard: 15.75 ft / 4.80 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 118.3 %
Waterplane Area: 15,785 Square feet or 1,467 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 85 lbs/sq ft or 413 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.86
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 0.91
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Laid down in 1904, completed 1905,
the vessel is to be completely refurbished in 1921.
Replacement turbines, a new main battery, laminated additional armor.
Old Engine : 2576
Old Bunker :1885
Old belt : 512
Old deck : 290
New Engine : 1546
New Bunker : 1885
Laminate +40mm (+32mm) on protective deck & slopes
additional belt : (under deck)
additional deck : 465
New Main Battery :436
New Armor : 152
Revolving wt/mount : 58.3
New secondary suite : 45.23
New Armor : 5.2
Magazines Wt : 191
Reconfigure bow - raise by 1m, forecastle by .5
Hull, fittings & equipment : 2026t
Miscellanous weight : 426t
60t construction reserve
49t FC
25t LR radio
25t Searchlight tower (NF)
6t CO2 Compressor AC
36t 4TT3 TT 21"
160t - Provisions for 160mines on 2nd deck, aft ports for dropping
25t - Enhanced fire extinguishers
25t - enhanced pumps
15t - Enhanced hydrophones
36t - spare torpedoes
My understanding from the Refurb rules is that you can remove or replace armor but not add to it.
Cruiser Musing.
My detour to build 'sentry' cruisers and refit the old scout cruisers has provided 5+2 ships for that role.
I should return to considering light cruisers.
The Byzantine fielding of 191mm guns, and other nations of 180mm has meant my old 165mm QF seems underpowered.
Which is really ironic as pregame I thought I was fielding fewer, but very powerful cruisers.
So I have been rearming with 180L43. Compared to
Hawkins these are ~80% of the mass before armor.
I am keeping them to single mount & hoist and limiting armor to keep the rotating weight down so they can track smaller targets fairly well.
So I am not fitting a separate secondary, rather accepting that in a gun battle, I may loose single guns.
Trying to assess where the Global Cruiser trendlines are, I made a little list.
First are the most recent completed and 'checkable' vessels of the various major navies.
Then
4 3 variants on a theme I am considering - named after ancient horse breeds from the Persian area.
Then my current cruisers.
From that look,
....I haven't resolved anything.
The Bahktiari at 29knots is slightly slow, but competitive, with excellent armor.
The Moulek at 30knots is right on speed, well armored and decently gunned.
The Mawari also 30knots has 1 more broadside gun, too many AA guns, and the weakest armor of the three.
The Darashouri has the additional broadside gun, the weakest armor, but the best speed at 31knots. Edit : The Darashouri was also a 1923 engine year, so not eligible.
My answer keeps changing between the
four three choices.
I am fine with being a knot slower, but somewhat tougher, and the
Bahktiari would match decently against the Byzantines.
But the tradeoffs to get to the
Moulek and 30knots are not bad.
The
Mwari essentially trades 1 broadside gun for a significant amount of protective deck. Probably not worth it
I much prefer the 40mm or 45mm decks, both to back the belt armor, and to stop splinters from old Byzantine ACs with 9-10" guns at range.
Something to ponder....
| Cruiser Conundrum | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| Cruisers between 3-6000 tons take 3 HY | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| So in 1921, the last completions were laid down in 1919. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| However, it would take a couple years for the Naval Press / Intellegence to get an idea of 'real' numbers | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| So I expect the Parthians have pretty good information on Cruisers built 1917 or earlier, and guesses for 1919 classes. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Broadside | | | | | | | | |
| | Class | Date | LD | Speed | Range | Main gun | Secondary | AA | Other | Belt | Deck | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| Azteca | Atlatl | 1917 | 7000 | 31 | 7900 | 8x 180L50 | 4x 100mm | 2x70 | | 100 | 30 | | | |
| Byzantine | C5 | 1913 | 5300 | 27 | 6500 | 6 x 191L45 | 6x 120mm | 2x76 | 8x TT | 90 | 35 | | | |
| Byzantine | C6 | 1918 | 5500-6000 | 28-29 | 6500 | 6-8 x 191L45 | 6-8x 120mm | 2-4x76 | 8-16x TT | 100 | 35 | Completed 1919-1920 | | |
| Japan | Furutaka | 1915 | 3400 | 30 | 7000 | 6x 150L45 | 6x 50mm | | 12 x TT | 25 | 25 | | | |
| Japan | Kitakami | 1917 | 3100 | 30 | 7000 | 6x 150L45 | 6x 50mm | | 24x TT | 25 | 25 | | | |
| Rome | Agincourt | 1915 | 6000 | 31 | 7000 | 10x 140L55 | | 1x 100 | 6x TT | 35 | 35 | | | |
| Rome | Killian DeCampo | 1915 | 9000 | 30 | 7000 | 5x 180L50 | 2x 100mm | 2x 45 | | 60 | 60 | | | |
| Wilno | Magdala | 1916 | 5200 | 30 | 10000 | 10x 130L45 | | 2x 50 | | 80 | 25 | | | |
| Wilno | Bug II | 1918 | 5200 | 30 | 10000 | 10x 130L45 | | 2x 50 | | 80 | 25 | Completed 1919-1920, similar to Magdala | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | Parthian 1921 Cruiser variants | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | Bahktiari | 1921 | 6000 | 29 | 10600 | 6x 180L43 | | 6x 90 | 12x TT | 110 | 45 | | | |
| | Moulek | 1921 | 6000 | 30 | 10000 | 6x 180L43 | | 6x 90 | 12x TT | 85 | 45 | | | |
| | Mawari | 1921 | 6000 | 30 | 10600 | 7x 180L43 | | 8x 90 | 12x TT | 75 | 35 | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | Parthian existing larger cruisers | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 2 | PC | 1900 R20 | 6000 | 28 | 8300 | 4x 180L43 | | 4x 90 | 12x TT | 115 | 50 | | | |
| 2 | PC series I | 1902 R20 | 6000 | 29 | 7900 | 7x 180L43 | | 4x 90 | 12x TT | 100 | 40 | | | |
| 2 | PC series II | 1904 | 6000 | 24 | 7600 | 7x 165L45 | 4x 60 | | 8x TT / 160M | 90 | 25 | | | |
| 0 | Series II refurb 1921 | 1904 R21 | 6000 | 28 | 10600 | 7x 180L43 | | 4x 90 | 12x TT / 160M | 110 | 55 | | | |
| 2 | PC series III | 1906 | 6000 | 27 | 7600 | 7x 165L45 | 4x 60 | | 8x TT / 160M | 90 | 25 | | | |
| 1 | Varyu | 1911 | 7500 | 30 | 12000 | 6x 180L45 | | 4x90 | 4x TT | 90 | 30 | | | |
| 1 | Vata | 1911 | 7500 | 30 | 12000 | 7x 165L45 | | 4x90 | 4x TT | 90 | 30 | | | |
| 1 | Saka | 1911 | 6000 | 28 | 14000 | 6x 180L45 | | 4x90 | 6x TT | 120 | 30 | | | |
| 1 | Massagatea | 1911 | 6000 | 28 | 14000 | 7x 165L45 | | 4x90 | 6x TT | 120 | 30 | | | |
| 8 | Maelstrom | 1913 | 5000 | 29 | 8800 | 6x 165L45 | | 4x90 | 4x TT | 100 | 30 | | | |
| 4 | Ranger | 1915 | 5000 | 29 | 3500 | 6x 165L43 | | 4x 90 | 4x TT | 110 | 35 | | | |
| 2+2 | Bakr -Sentry Frigate | 1919 | 4500 | 27 | 6700 | 6x 165L43 | | 4x 90 | 6x TT | 100 | 25 | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | Subtotal 26+2 | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | Others | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 2 | Mus-Sag Torpedoboat carriers | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 12 | Artesmia sailing raider frigates | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 2 | SC 2 Sythian Sentry Frigate | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 1 | SC 5 Samaritan Sentry Frigate | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 3 | DDL Rudaba Destroyer leader | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| 2 | Royal Road courier cruiser | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | Subtotal 22 | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
After mulling things over, the ability to face the Byzantine C6, which is presumed to be an upgrade on the C5
is of importance. As my 180 vs his 191 is a little smaller, I need a little extra armor to offset his advantage.
Speedwise, 29knots should match up with the C6.
That puts me just 1 knot behind the others - and perhaps 1 or 2 behind the 1919 ships.
But one thing the Parthians have noticed is even when you build the very fastest ship, it does not
stay that way for long.
However, those faster seem lighter armed or armored, and so if they catch me...they may not like that result.
So.. the 'Bahktiari' seems the best choice for now.
The "Moulek2" is also posted for comparison, and because I might suddenly change my mind.
On naming :
These cruiser classes are is named after the ancient horse breed of the Persian world.
The 'the Caspian Horse', a little horse from Northern Iran, a local name being 'Moulek' and Pouseki.
. These were riding and cart horses from the time of Darius the Great onwards.
Akhale-Teke, Iomund, Goklan, and Nokhorli are also ancient horses breeds likely descended from the Caspians.
The Marwari and Kathiawari are Indian breeds related to the Moulek.
The Royal Nisean is the warhorse of Cyrus the Great, and was actively sought by both the Greeks and Chinese. This breed may have been that which allowed the transition from Chariot horses, to horses bearing armored warriors. The Chinese called the breed 'Tien Ma' or Heavenly Horse.
In history the breed went extinct in 1204, in Navalism, it's status as favored mount of Royals kept it alive.
The Asil is the purest remaining breed.
The Bakhtiari is a horse of the arid plataue, long and rangey.
The Darashouri is a mix of the Niessan and Arabian horses. They are found mainly in Fars.
The Tchenarian are an ancient breed, mixing the steppe and arabians.
The Kurd horse is native to the mountainous areas.
Quote
Bahktiari, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1921
Displacement:
6,000 t light; 6,347 t standard; 7,405 t normal; 8,252 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(523.33 ft / 516.73 ft) x 50.85 ft x (20.51 / 22.23 ft)
(159.51 m / 157.50 m) x 15.50 m x (6.25 / 6.77 m)
Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 43.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1921 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
6 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 23.55lbs / 10.68kg shells, 350 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1921 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1921 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,642 lbs / 745 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.33" / 110 mm 335.89 ft / 102.38 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 1.57" / 40 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.77" / 45 mm
Forecastle: 1.77" / 45 mm Quarter deck: 1.77" / 45 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.33" / 110 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 49,328 shp / 36,799 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 10,600nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,905 tons
Complement:
398 - 518
Cost:
£1.498 million / $5.993 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 394 tons, 5.3 %
- Guns: 394 tons, 5.3 %
Armour: 1,431 tons, 19.3 %
- Belts: 681 tons, 9.2 %
- Armament: 146 tons, 2.0 %
- Armour Deck: 569 tons, 7.7 %
- Conning Tower: 35 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,699 tons, 22.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,193 tons, 29.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,405 tons, 19.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 282 tons, 3.8 %
- Hull below water: 40 tons
- Hull void weights: 80 tons
- Hull above water: 31 tons
- On freeboard deck: 41 tons
- Above deck: 90 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,950 lbs / 3,606 Kg = 44.7 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 13.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.481 / 0.494
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.16 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.73 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Forward deck: 27.00 %, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Aft deck: 38.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 17.24 ft / 5.26 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 136.2 %
Waterplane Area: 17,212 Square feet or 1,599 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 82 lbs/sq ft or 401 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.86
- Longitudinal: 1.36
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The 1/2 and 3/4 mounts are forward of the break,
the 5/6 mounts aft. The torpedo tubes are between the 5/6 and the break
The 90mm AA are mounted high with good all-round arcs.
Misc. Weight :
55t: Construction Resv
25t : LR Radio
40t : FC
25t : Searchlight tower (NF)
36t : 4T3 21" TT
5t : Paravanes
6t : CO2 Compressor AC
25t : Enhanced Fire Ext.
25t: Enhanced Pumps
15t : Enhanced Hydrophones
Decks :
+6.50 : Forecastle deck
+4.00 : Battery deck/ weather deck
+2.00 : top armor belt
+1.50 : Crown of protective deck
-1.00 : 1st deck, lower edge protective deck.
-1.5 : bottom armor belt
-4.50 : Engineering
-5.38 : Keel, double bottom
And now the Moulek
Quote
Moulek, Pouseki, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1921
Displacement:
6,000 t light; 6,347 t standard; 7,346 t normal; 8,145 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(523.33 ft / 516.73 ft) x 50.03 ft x (20.51 / 22.15 ft)
(159.51 m / 157.50 m) x 15.25 m x (6.25 / 6.75 m)
Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 43.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1921 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
6 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 23.55lbs / 10.68kg shells, 375 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1921 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1921 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,642 lbs / 745 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.54" / 90 mm 356.56 ft / 108.68 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.56" / 65 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 1.77" / 45 mm
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.77" / 45 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.77" / 45 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 3.54" / 90 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 56,227 shp / 41,945 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 10,024nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,798 tons
Complement:
396 - 515
Cost:
£1.583 million / $6.332 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 394 tons, 5.4 %
- Guns: 394 tons, 5.4 %
Armour: 1,300 tons, 17.7 %
- Belts: 586 tons, 8.0 %
- Armament: 135 tons, 1.8 %
- Armour Deck: 551 tons, 7.5 %
- Conning Tower: 29 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,936 tons, 26.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,162 tons, 29.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,347 tons, 18.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 207 tons, 2.8 %
- Hull below water: 15 tons
- Hull void weights: 55 tons
- Hull above water: 6 tons
- On freeboard deck: 41 tons
- Above deck: 90 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,538 lbs / 2,965 Kg = 36.7 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 2.3 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 13.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.08
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.485 / 0.498
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.73 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Forward deck: 23.00 %, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Aft deck: 46.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarter deck: 11.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 16.91 ft / 5.16 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129.6 %
Waterplane Area: 16,994 Square feet or 1,579 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 82 lbs/sq ft or 400 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.86
- Longitudinal: 1.31
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
The Moulek and Pouseki are local names for the Caspian Horse,
an ancient horse breed depicted from the time of Darius.
The 1/2 and 3/4 mounts are forward of the break,
the 5/6 mounts aft. The torpedoe tubes are between the 5/6 and the break
The rotating weight for the main battery is 59.875 tons each.
This is betwen the 45 and 70t in the Ship Design guidelines.
Likewise the 85kg shell is betwen the 60 and 95kg marks for handloading.
The 90mm AA are mounted high.
Misc. Weight :
35t: Construction Resv
25t : LR Radio
40t : FC
25t : Searchlight tower (NF)
36t : 4T3 21" TT
5t : Paravanes
6t : CO2 Compressor AC
15t : Enhanced Hydrophones
Decks :
+6.50 : Forecastle deck
+4.00 : Battery deck/ weather deck
+2.00 : top armor belt
+1.50 : Crown of protective deck
-1.00 : 1st deck, lower edge protective deck.
-1.50 : bottom armor belt
-4.50 : Engineering
-5.32 : Keel, double bottom
Byzantium does not plan to change the standard armament of these cruisers: 6x191 + 6(8)x120.
But plans squadron cruisers, 29kts and colonial cruisers,27kts.
Bahktiari and Moulek have 6 gun broadsides, identical to C5, C6 & C7, C8 projects.
Tinkering around, I wanted to see what a 165mm version, with the high speed would look like.
This matches the little Japanese cruisers for speed, and has comparable armament and armor to the Roman and Wilno ships.
There may be sufficient speed advantage to close on the Byzantine vessels, but with them having greater guns AND armor...
There will be an extended period where they can seriously harm me, and I can not hope to do the same.
Worse, the twin 165mm actually weighs 95tons, making it more than a single 180L43 while difficult to traverse unassisted,
and of less use in night time closing engagements.
So, while interesting to explore,
not a winning design.
Quote
Tchenarian, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1921
Displacement:
6,000 t light; 6,302 t standard; 7,117 t normal; 7,768 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(524.63 ft / 518.37 ft) x 50.85 ft x (19.69 / 21.01 ft)
(159.91 m / 158.00 m) x 15.50 m x (6.00 / 6.40 m)
Armament:
8 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1921 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1921 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1921 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,245 lbs / 565 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 388.78 ft / 118.50 m 11.65 ft / 3.55 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 115 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.56" / 65 mm 1.57" / 40 mm 1.57" / 40 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.38" / 35 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.38" / 35 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 2.95" / 75 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 3 shafts, 62,803 shp / 46,851 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 8,280nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,467 tons
Complement:
386 - 503
Cost:
£1.578 million / $6.313 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 301 tons, 4.2 %
- Guns: 301 tons, 4.2 %
Armour: 1,138 tons, 16.0 %
- Belts: 533 tons, 7.5 %
- Armament: 138 tons, 1.9 %
- Armour Deck: 444 tons, 6.2 %
- Conning Tower: 24 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,163 tons, 30.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,146 tons, 30.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,116 tons, 15.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 253 tons, 3.6 %
- Hull below water: 25 tons
- Hull void weights: 30 tons
- Hull above water: 31 tons
- On freeboard deck: 86 tons
- Above deck: 81 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
5,494 lbs / 2,492 Kg = 40.1 x 6.5 " / 165 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 13.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.480 / 0.491
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.19 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.10 ft / 7.65 m, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m, 20.18 ft / 6.15 m
- Aft deck: 45.00 %, 11.98 ft / 3.65 m, 11.98 ft / 3.65 m
- Quarter deck: 5.00 %, 11.98 ft / 3.65 m, 11.98 ft / 3.65 m
- Average freeboard: 17.13 ft / 5.22 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 114.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 134.1 %
Waterplane Area: 17,251 Square feet or 1,603 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 80 lbs/sq ft or 389 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.87
- Longitudinal: 1.27
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Misc Wieght
30t - Const Reserve
25t - LR Radio
31t - FC
25t - Searchlight tower
36t - 4T3 21" TT
50t - 2x Kite Balloon
6t - CO2 Air compressor
25t - enhanced Fire suppression
25t - Extra Pumps.
Decks
+6.15 Forecastle
+3.65 Weather Deck
+2.2 Top main belt
+1.15 Protective Deck Crown
- 1.35 Lower Edge Protective Deck
-1.35 Bottom main belt
-5.2 Engineering
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on February 21, 2022, 02:19:16 PM
My understanding from the Refurb rules is that you can remove or replace armor but not add to it.
That is correct
QuoteNew armor decks, external belts, and external bulges for torpedo defense (not "torpedo bulkheads") can be added. Existing armor decks, external belts, or weapon armor can be replaced or removed (not increased).
I can not make it thicker no.
You can't really inject extra steel to make it thicker. I suppose one could try, might be funny to watch.
I can add an additional layer.
That is what I mean by 'laminate', I am placing a new deck directly on top of the old deck.
That is not as strong as a single deck layer, which I why I include that specification. I get less bang for the buck.
This is essentially what the Brits did post Jutland.
Rather than tearing up and replacing the old decks with completely new ones, they added armor plate to the old ones.
1918: gunpowder catapults for floatplanes; separate landing and taking-off decks for wheeled aircraft. Early Air-Launched torpedoes. Rapid Consecutive Takeoffs limited to single aircraft.
In 1921.0 the Parthians completed research on this technology.
The 'allowed' model appears to be that of the first version of HMS Furious.
https://naval-encyclopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/hms-furious-1918-aircraft-carrier-2.png
(https://naval-encyclopedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/hms-furious-1918-aircraft-carrier-2.png)
I think the 'operating' meaning for "separate landing and taking-off decks" is HMS Furious allowed planes to wheel around the superstructure, so the landing and take off areas were connected, but critically you could not use the take off section as additional landing area.
Mus-Sag 1918 tech experimental carrier
I am thinking the most appropriate ships for a conversion is the Mus-Sag Torpedo-boat carriers which I simply refurbished..... or one of the ones converted to a Seaplane Carrier.
As before their casement guns means nothing on the centerline, and they already have large spaces for workshops.
I am thinking that the seaplane carriers are useful as is, and it would be more welcomed to convert
one of the two remaining torpedo-boat carriers. The last can still be used to ferry MTBs around, or for solo raids.
Ironically, when I had 6 of the things, they could field 48 TBs and have a shot of saturating defenses. Now with 16...or 8, they are less useful even with the newer MTBs.
For the Mus-Sag Torpedo-boat conversion
Design Description A hanger Aft, with a landing deck on top.
Two Superstructure islands, Port & Starboard, connected by a flying bridge.
This forms an "H" with a tunnel between them.
In the tunnel between, is the elevator, and is used for both landing and taking off aircraft.
Forward a cantilevered structure extends forward, ~2 planes wide, with a gunpowder catapult as reserve and 'bumper' at both sides to keep the planes wheels from running off.
AirgroupWaterplane : 1696 / 65 = 30.7 max air group
I want this to be a 'Flight Deck Cruiser'
So max Air Group = 30.7 / 2 = 15.35 = 15
Tonnage per plane is 80 * 1.5 (conversion) = 120 / plane
* 15 planes = 1800 tons
Theoretically Parthia likes to use groups of 4- a Zorastorian thing – so I will go with 3 groups of 4 and 3 spares.
Or 15.
Old Tonnage :
Old Engines : 2196
Old Bunker : 1467
Old hull : 2267
Hanger :
I am paying to redo the freeboard, so the 'hull weight' become relevant.
The default Freeboard is 4.55 m. The as-built is 5.05. I will use 5.05 as base.
Stern and aft Hull : +5m
I will retain the raised bow as the forward end of the flight deck.
It prevents bow-on deck gun fire, but these ships were casemented, so that was irrelevant.
The ships are a lot shorter than HMS Furious and may need that length.
Works out to about 70m. Looking at HMS Campania she started at 38.6m and then was lengthend to 74m
so this puts it "in the ballpark"
The end result is very unstable, so I will add 1m bulges on each side.
Upper belt was 5.05 to 2.61, then Main belt was 2.60 to -0.4.
So bulges will be 13mm from -0.4 to 6m keel
New Hull : 3355
Guns :
The 180L40s get replaced with 180L43s. The casement armor gets replaced and upgraded.
The 60mm get removed, 4 pairs of the new 57L60 are placed at the superstructure corners.
Since the ship will have planes to go shoot down zeppelins or high bombers, the 90AA is not seen
as needed. The faster firing 57L60 is expected to be much more handy against attacking planes.
1 quad 15L70 is placed on top of each tower of the H.
Guns & Mounts : 217
Armor : 97
Mag : 181
Engines :
New turbo-electric oil fired turbines are installed : 1253tons
Bunker : New Bunker : 1457
Miscellaneous Weight
100t Construction Reserve
AD
100t "H" superstructure
25t – LR radio
10t – additional SR dedicated radio
25t – Hulesmeyer
25t - Searchlights (NF)
22t - FC
OD
900tons airgroup
25t – Gunpowder Catapult
50t - Elevator
25t Additional Fire Suppression
HAW
900tons airgroup
8t CO2 AC
25t Additional Fire Suppression
5t Paravanes
HBW :
140tons Torpedo net
25tons Extra Pumps
313 tons Turbo-electric generators
Quote
Cost Basis :
A) 20% of original cost
B) Armament and machinery , BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost = twice the BP cost.
C ) Armor and functional miscellaneous weight, BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost is equal to BP cost.
D) Hull, fittings & equipment, No BP cost; $ cost is equal to (tonnage/5000)
E) Fuel, ammunition & stores; non-functional miscellaneous weight , No BP cost; $ cost is (tonnage/2000).
A) Original Cost : 7.494 * 0.20 = $1.4988
B) Aircraft are armament , so 1800 AC + 217 guns + 1253 machinery = 3270 = 3.27 BP, $ 6.54
C) 97 + Non-AC Functional Misc Wt : 823 = 920 = 0.92 BP, $ 0.92
D) 3355 / 5000 = $0.671
E) Fuel 1457, ammo 181, Non-Functional Misc Wt 100, total : 1738t / 2000 = $0.869
Total : 4.19 BP, $10.4988
Ok that's very expensive $$ for what I get.
But I really want to field an 'Experimental' carrier before I go to 'real carriers'.
And for 4.2 BP, I can't build anything useful. The $ part is more than I like, but I can afford it.
I could save a lot by cutting down the Airgroup, as I suspect 15 is a bit much for that ship, even at 12 + 3 spares, but from a storyline aspect I'd rather have the "experience" of trying to operate a larger air group than smaller.
Quote
Mus-sag, Parthian Experimental Airplane Carrier laid down 1894 (Engine 1923)
Displacement:
8,533 t light; 8,909 t standard; 9,718 t normal; 10,365 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(464.54 ft / 459.32 ft) x 52.49 ft (Bulges 59.06 ft) x (19.69 / 20.93 ft)
(141.59 m / 140.00 m) x 16.00 m (Bulges 18.00 m) x (6.00 / 6.38 m)
Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 43.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1913 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1917 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 150 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
2 x 2 row quad mounts on sides amidships
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,553 lbs / 704 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 305.12 ft / 93.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 154.17 ft / 46.99 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 301.84 ft / 92.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
- Hull Bulges:
0.51" / 13 mm 305.12 ft / 93.00 m 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 0.98" / 25 mm
Forecastle: 0.79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0.79" / 20 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.97" / 50 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 37,500 shp / 27,975 Kw = 25.02 kts
Range 6,800nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,457 tons
Complement:
489 - 636
Cost:
£0.544 million / $2.176 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 216 tons, 2.2 %
- Guns: 216 tons, 2.2 %
Armour: 1,085 tons, 11.2 %
- Belts: 539 tons, 5.5 %
- Bulges: 106 tons, 1.1 %
- Armament: 99 tons, 1.0 %
- Armour Deck: 322 tons, 3.3 %
- Conning Tower: 19 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,253 tons, 12.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,255 tons, 33.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,185 tons, 12.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2,723 tons, 28.0 %
- Hull below water: 478 tons
- Bulge void weights: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 938 tons
- On freeboard deck: 1,000 tons
- Above deck: 207 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,492 lbs / 8,388 Kg = 103.9 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.30
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, rise aft of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.637 / 0.639
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.78 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 24.57 ft / 7.49 m, 24.57 ft / 7.49 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 16.57 ft / 5.05 m, 16.57 ft / 5.05 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 32.97 ft / 10.05 m, 32.97 ft / 10.05 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 32.97 ft / 10.05 m, 32.97 ft / 10.05 m
- Average freeboard: 26.37 ft / 8.04 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 180.6 %
Waterplane Area: 18,251 Square feet or 1,696 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 139 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 87 lbs/sq ft or 424 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.84
- Longitudinal: 4.53
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
From my perspective it's actually a fair number of aircraft for her size.
Pricey, as you say, but not a bad outcome. Be curious to see if the 180mm guns become doctrine or not.
For some reason I think 10-12 would be more reasonable.
Probably because I was looking at HMS Vindictive, which had a cruiser hull
I considered rebuilding one of my Saka class Cruisers instead, but I did not want to sacrifice it for an experimental platform.
The Mus-sags are a weird class.
I actually really like them, for when they were built they would be a substantial tactical problem.
Now they are proving a nice experimental platform for their final days.
They are a little deceptive, because while they are big cruisers, they had a weird hull form.
Instead of being long, skinny and V hull form,
I wanted to provide lots of topside handling room for the torpedo boats, so I made them broad and beamy with a fairly shallow draft and a 0.637 BD.
So they actually have an usually high waterplane area for their tonnage.
While HMS Vindictive as on a Hawkins hull...a conventional cruiser I bet it had a much smaller BC.
As for the 180L43s, the original had the 180L40s, so that's just the most recent version.
I expect my early carriers will be 'Flight deck cruisers' focusing on scouting and contesting air superiority with small airgroups,
and will have the 180 as the main gun.
That's a solid approach, I think. I have some difficulty imagining anybody building down big purpose-built attack carriers for a while yet.
*slowly puts away Zuikaku plans*
Hosho is coming soon.
I'm rather tickled by the OTL flight deck cruiser proposals, and am thinking of trying to make cruiser squadrons with one ship built as a hybrid.
The ~12000 tons 'light armored cruiser' hull is something I'm eyeing for that role, but I am also looking at 8000tonners.
Tack on a couple near the battle line and it's lots of little platforms for the first batch, focusing on fighters and scouts. The multiple decks
should actually help launch rates.
One they learn flight deck ops and handling (i.e. better mid-20s tech) and plane ranges /payloads improve, then I will start eyeing actual carriers.
Then I have an unhealthy love of the two-flight deck look of Courageous/Furious/Glorious/Akagi/Kaga....so I'm going to have a batch of those as strike carriers.
I have a sort of horrified fascination with those types and had thought I should strive to build the ugliest carrier possible based on that, but I'm always re-thinking my approaches.
Oh I find the dual flight deck carriers the pretty ones.
Also a potentially elegant solution to continuous operations before they had the entire
and conceptually capable of a higher take off rate for emergency surge back in the pre-radar foe detection days.
...granted it generally wasn't used because of various issues...but
Compare it to a 'modern' with the hurricane bow and angled decks jutting out at odd angles, with the angular superstructure...bleh
was tinkering around and came up with this for ~1924/25 as a successor to the Zemaka class ACRs.
Doubt I will build it, but I wanted to see what the combination would 'Cost for the new guns I'm building, with a 29-31knot speed and 240mm belt.
Ultimately, it 'costs' 4000 tons (aka 3 destroyers) more than a Zemaka, is slightly slower and the only thing it can 'beat' that a Zemaka can not
is likely an older 'battlecruiser'.
On the other hand, by time I get to 1924-25 there may be other things out there this could be useful for. We shall see.
Quote
RPN Rustahem Suren, Parthian Heavy Armored Cruiser laid down 1923 (Engine 1925)
Displacement:
22,599 t light; 24,238 t standard; 25,342 t normal; 26,225 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(622.54 ft / 615.16 ft) x 82.02 ft (Bulges 85.30 ft) x (30.18 / 31.05 ft)
(189.75 m / 187.50 m) x 25.00 m (Bulges 26.00 m) x (9.20 / 9.47 m)
Armament:
8 - 12.99" / 330 mm 43.9 cal guns - 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 154 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1923 Model
2 x 4-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, majority forward
2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 750 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 11,933 lbs / 5,413 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.45" / 240 mm 449.08 ft / 136.88 m 13.25 ft / 4.04 m
Ends: 1.57" / 40 mm 166.08 ft / 50.62 m 13.25 ft / 4.04 m
Main Belt covers 112 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -15.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.50" / 38 mm 449.08 ft / 136.88 m 28.12 ft / 8.57 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 64.30 ft / 19.60 m
- Hull Bulges:
0.35" / 9 mm 407.64 ft / 124.25 m 23.62 ft / 7.20 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.2" / 310 mm 7.09" / 180 mm 9.45" / 240 mm
2nd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 1.77" / 45 mm
3rd: 1.38" / 35 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.51" / 13 mm - -
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.76" / 70 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 2.76" / 70 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 9.45" / 240 mm, Aft 2.95" / 75 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 122,369 shp / 91,288 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 5,165nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,987 tons
Complement:
1,003 - 1,305
Cost:
£6.628 million / $26.511 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,205 tons, 8.7 %
- Guns: 2,205 tons, 8.7 %
Armour: 6,725 tons, 26.5 %
- Belts: 2,461 tons, 9.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 699 tons, 2.8 %
- Bulges: 126 tons, 0.5 %
- Armament: 1,461 tons, 5.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1,747 tons, 6.9 %
- Conning Towers: 231 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 3,973 tons, 15.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,010 tons, 35.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,743 tons, 10.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 687 tons, 2.7 %
- Hull below water: 228 tons
- Bulge void weights: 110 tons
- Hull above water: 48 tons
- On freeboard deck: 30 tons
- Above deck: 271 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
29,603 lbs / 13,428 Kg = 27.0 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 4.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.88
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.560 / 0.563
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.21 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 27.56 ft / 8.40 m, 25.26 ft / 7.70 m
- Forward deck: 35.00 %, 25.26 ft / 7.70 m, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m
- Aft deck: 38.00 %, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m
- Quarter deck: 7.00 %, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m, 24.28 ft / 7.40 m
- Average freeboard: 23.86 ft / 7.27 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 112.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157.1 %
Waterplane Area: 35,544 Square feet or 3,302 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 180 lbs/sq ft or 878 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.08
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
The goal of this vessel is to explore if the new 330L43.9 can be used to
produce a superior armored cruiser to the Zemaka class without exorbidant displacement.
3 (5) 7
(b) (d)
A (1) [a] [f] (2) B
(c) (e)
4 (6) 8
A-B Main
1-6 2nd
a-f AA
( ) 1 up
[ ] 2 up
The ship can fire 10x 130 forward, 10x 130 on either beam and 10x 130 aft.
The AA suite is increased to 8x 90AA, with 4 in each direction, and twin 57AA fore & Aft covering 270deg arcs.
The resulting vessel is nearly the size of an early Gilgamesh but
50% faster.
It is expected to be able to dominate all older armored cruisers at any range.
There are big fast ships that have comparable or better armanent and are 50% to 100%
larger, but precious few are expected to be able to catch it.
Belt
3.9 cos (15) = 4.03+
The TDS is only twinned 19mm plates, but spaced a full 3m inboard, with a 0.5m bulge on each side for standoff distance. A liquid/void loading with simple hull dividing is used.
Misc Wt :
110t - Reserve
221t - FC
25t - Searchlight Tower
25t - LR Radio
25t - Hulesmeyer
5t - Paravanes
23t - CO2 Air Compressor AC
25t - Enhanced Fire Suppression
25t - Enhanced Pumps
15t - Enhanced hydrophones.
188t - Torpedo nets
Decks
6.9 - Forecastle
4.4 - Weather
1.9 - Main Armor Deck, top TDS, Top Main Belt
-0.6 - Deck
- 2.0 Bottom Main Belt.
-3.1- Deck
-6.9 - Engineering
-8.1 - Double Bottom
Quote...Ultimately, it 'costs' 4000 tons (aka 3 destroyers)...
Byzantium reduces the cost of these cruisers and adopts the Panzerschiff format => 2T3.
AC9 class (
Isparta) 13750t is reduced to 11485t and allows the construction of 8 additional torpedo boats for colonies.
Different design goals.
The designs I have that are similar to the Isparta are what I call Light Armored Cruisers, usually 230mm armed,
or various Capharact designs with either 255 or 300.
The AC9 was just laid down, so the Parthians do not have any real data on it.
The Zemaka class was designed without reference to it.
Looking at the design I note : Beam between torpedo bulkheads 71,59 ft / 21,82 m
Which since your beam is 21,82m, means your TDS is just a 40mm plate behind the hull.
You may want to revise the vessel some.
At least 2-2.5m on each side, so an internal beam of 16.82-17.82.
That may mean you need a longer citadel
and have to adjust your forecastle and stern to get the longer belt/TDS/Armor deck
Sorry to bring this up late but I have been busy enough I don't browse designs alot recently.
actually, what tends to draw my eye is if some other nation's player comments on a thread.
But even then, I haven't had the time.
The 1905 Rustam class AC would have completed in 1907.
So it is only 14 years old. The Royal navy estimated capital ship lifespans at 26 years, so it is a little past half.
At 23.5 knots it is slightly faster than the Byzantine battleline, but slower than anything else.
The 20knot predreads like Rohk and Smurgh are expected to be slow and tough, but ACs are meant to go mix it up
So this class is planned for refurbishment as well.
As such, this class will also be the testbed for the new 1918 fire control, and the first operational ship launched spotter planes.
Then fleet wide FC upgrades can be rolled out in 1922.
The 1913 230L44 gun, was designed so it could replace the twin mount 245L40s in
Bucephalus and
Sparabara classes,
and it was just light enough to fit as a single where the Rustam's twin 180L40 turrets were.
Then the refits were delayed
So Option A ) Change to 2T2 255L49, the new gun, with 4T2 180L43 for spotting.
Or Option B ) Change to a uniform 8x 230L44 battery.
While replacing the original 255L50 2T2 is a loss of power, that would have to mix with the 180s for spotting - inflicting the 'multiship firing' penalty on solo fights.
With the 230L44s, they expect the all-big-gun arrangement of more modern and faster firing to be able to maintain long range spotting.
The guns loose ~10-15% penetration compared to the original battery, but they can still destroy a cruiser-armored foe at decent ranges.
The 28knots means the ship can operate with the current Parthian cruisers and there are only a handful of ships out there both significantly faster (2-3knts) to force battle and more powerful.
1921 Refurbishment
Old Engines : 2791
Old Bunker : 1777
Old main mag : 143
Main : Gun + Mounts : 442
Sec : Gun + Mounts : 324
Armanent :
New 230 2-G : 399
New 230 singles : 319
Turret Armor : 104+182 : 286
New Mag : 300t
Replace 90mm with 130mm casements
New 130C : 164
New Armor: 121
Mag :75
Replace 60mm with 90mm AA, install Twin 57AA
New AA :37.4
New Armor :22.44
Mag :27.8
Total Guns & Mounts : 919t
Total Armor: 429
Total Mag : 403
New Oil-fired Engines : 2486
New Bunkers : 1732
Laminate +15 mm to main armor deck :267
Effective thickness 37 / (25+52) / 52
New Misc. Weight :
60t void weight.
92t - Fire Control
25t - Searchlight tower (NF)
25t - Hulesmeyer
5t - Gunpowder catapult
20t - Reconnaisance floatplane
25t War Tuba
5t Paravanes
13t - CO2 compressor AC
25t - Enhanced Fire Ext.
148t - Torpedo Nets
25t - enhanced pumps
15t - enhanced hydrophones
148t - Torpedo Nets
Costs :
A) 20% of 12296/1000 : 2.4592$
B) Machinery : 2486
Guns : 919
Subttoal : 3405
Cost : $6.81, 3.405B
C) Armor : 429 +267 = 696
Func (all but void) = 423
Subtotal : $1.119, 1.119BP
D) Hull : 4,203/5000 - Note I actually made no change tothe Hull other than non-functional bow angle, I have decided as a storyline aspect for 'repairs' of wear and tear. Though I think that is the 20% up front cost.
....and then decided if I'm doing that I can raise the bow ever so slightly to +0.5m
which just pushes it to 1.01 seakeeping from 1.00.
= $0.8406
E) Fuel, Mag, NF misc : 1732 + 403 + 60t = 2195/2000 = $1.0975
Subtotal :
2.4592
6.810 3.405
1.119 1.119
0.8406
1.0975
---------------------
$12.3263 4.524B
--------------------
$12.33 4.52B
5.55 4th Deck, top of upper belt, 25mm armor deck .
3.05 3rd Deck
1.05 Top of Main Belt, bottom uppe belt
0.55 2nd Deck, Crown of 40mm Protective Deck
-1.95 1st deck, bottom of Protective deck,bottom of Main belt.
-6.95 Engineering Deck (2 decks height)
Quote
Rustam, Parthian Armored cruiser laid down 1905 (Engine 1921)
Displacement:
12,280 t light; 12,961 t standard; 13,924 t normal; 14,693 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(492.13 ft / 485.56 ft) x 68.90 ft x (24.61 / 25.72 ft)
(150.00 m / 148.00 m) x 21.00 m x (7.50 / 7.84 m)
Armament:
4 - 9.06" / 230 mm 44.0 cal guns - 392.42lbs / 178.00kg shells, 164 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1904 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 9.06" / 230 mm 44.0 cal guns - 392.42lbs / 178.00kg shells, 180 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1913 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 350 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1911 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,109 lbs / 1,864 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.09" / 180 mm 315.62 ft / 96.20 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 3.54" / 90 mm 169.91 ft / 51.79 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Upper: 3.54" / 90 mm 282.81 ft / 86.20 m 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.48" / 190 mm 3.54" / 90 mm 7.09" / 180 mm
2nd: 7.48" / 190 mm 3.54" / 90 mm 5.31" / 135 mm
3rd: 3.94" / 100 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 1.77" / 45 mm
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - 0.31" / 8 mm
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3.15" / 80 mm
Forecastle: 1.57" / 40 mm Quarter deck: 2.17" / 55 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 7.09" / 180 mm, Aft 3.54" / 90 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 72,194 shp / 53,856 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 6,400nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,732 tons
Complement:
640 - 833
Cost:
£1.105 million / $4.419 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 920 tons, 6.6 %
- Guns: 920 tons, 6.6 %
Armour: 4,188 tons, 30.1 %
- Belts: 1,819 tons, 13.1 %
- Armament: 916 tons, 6.6 %
- Armour Deck: 1,320 tons, 9.5 %
- Conning Towers: 133 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 2,486 tons, 17.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,203 tons, 30.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,644 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 483 tons, 3.5 %
- Hull below water: 188 tons
- Hull void weights: 60 tons
- Hull above water: 38 tons
- On freeboard deck: 55 tons
- Above deck: 142 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,732 lbs / 8,497 Kg = 50.5 x 9.1 " / 230 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.592 / 0.598
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.05 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.04 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 28.05 ft / 8.55 m, 26.41 ft / 8.05 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 26.41 ft / 8.05 m, 26.41 ft / 8.05 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 18.21 ft / 5.55 m, 18.21 ft / 5.55 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 18.21 ft / 5.55 m, 19.85 ft / 6.05 m
- Average freeboard: 22.56 ft / 6.88 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.0 %
Waterplane Area: 24,285 Square feet or 2,256 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 123 lbs/sq ft or 600 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.32
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
I think the 230 variant is correct. Going with the 255/180 split, you're basically the worst of both worlds. The 230s at least make it competitive with the next generation that is coming out.
Yeah, I am leaning towards that as well.
Hmm, I forgot the 25t for a LR radio.
Guess I can take it out of Misc wt or...oh I will ditch the war tuba.
I think I've had them in service enough to realize they are not
terribly useful at sea under way.
A couple turns ago there was a brief discussion about how many cruisers, how fast and how heavily gunned.
I am slowly assembling my Warships tab for my turn sheet, so I finally happen to have a place I can look to provide an answer
This also reflects all the recent upgrade work on older vessels.
In terms of vessels in service, Jan 1, 1922 :
27+kts : 8 cruisers, all 165
: 6x ACs : 2x 230, 4x255
28+kts : 9 cruisers, 5x 180, 1x 165, 3x 120
: 2x AC, 2x 230
29+kts : 14 cruisers, 2x 180, 12x 165
30+kts : 2 cruisers, 1x 180, 1x 165
Total 27kts +, 165mm + : 30 cruisers, 8 ACs
More tinkering with future potential vessels.
This one started as a USS Omaha- like vessel.
The originals were weakly built - their fuel tanks leaked in seaways- and lightly armored.
In N7 terms, they likely had insufficient comp hull.
In this case I was taking advantage of the 1920 Cruiser Tech 0.9 for 8000 and less.
This effort was upgunned to the Parthian 165mm,
but in recognition of Byzantine's 191mm ships, the 180L43 was fitted
and the vessel uparmored, costing speed and increasing tonnage.
The E and F iterations also featured the new 180L47 with the 90kg shell and power assist mounts.
I am really unsure how much weight to allocate for this...1 ton per feature (load/ram/train), 5% of rotating weight, 10% ?
Here I went with 10%
Two-gun mounts would actually be 'cheaper' weight wise, but the Parthians continue
to put a premium on limiting total mount weight and shell weight to keep the ability of the main
gun to track and engage fast close targets. A two-gun mount would then lead them to mount a secondary,
removing the advantage. The new 180L47 is in purpose-designed power assist mountings for that reason.
Quote
Omaha F 180mm, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1924
Displacement:
7,999 t light; 8,436 t standard; 9,336 t normal; 10,055 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(589.65 ft / 583.99 ft) x 58.40 ft x (20.34 / 21.48 ft)
(179.72 m / 178.00 m) x 17.80 m x (6.20 / 6.55 m)
Armament:
4 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 198.42lbs / 90.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1924 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 198.42lbs / 90.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1924 Model
8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1924 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 800 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,506 lbs / 1,137 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.54" / 90 mm 420.47 ft / 128.16 m 10.89 ft / 3.32 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 111 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -15.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 1.77" / 45 mm
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.38" / 35 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 3.54" / 90 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 80,203 shp / 59,832 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 7,930nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,619 tons
Complement:
474 - 617
Cost:
£2.497 million / $9.988 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 466 tons, 5.0 %
- Guns: 466 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 1,614 tons, 17.3 %
- Belts: 652 tons, 7.0 %
- Armament: 147 tons, 1.6 %
- Armour Deck: 781 tons, 8.4 %
- Conning Tower: 34 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,642 tons, 28.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,902 tons, 31.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,337 tons, 14.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 375 tons, 4.0 %
- Hull below water: 40 tons
- Hull void weights: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 33 tons
- On freeboard deck: 105 tons
- Above deck: 97 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,614 lbs / 3,454 Kg = 42.8 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 14.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.06
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.471 / 0.480
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 26.61 ft / 8.11 m, 24.15 ft / 7.36 m
- Forward deck: 18.00 %, 24.15 ft / 7.36 m, 21.69 ft / 6.61 m
- Aft deck: 54.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Quarter deck: 8.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
- Average freeboard: 17.53 ft / 5.34 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 109.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.7 %
Waterplane Area: 22,143 Square feet or 2,057 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 90 lbs/sq ft or 441 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.87
- Longitudinal: 1.14
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Warning: Too many mounts in specific locations - 2nd Battery
Modeled on USS Omaha
with above-deck casements for end-on fire
and 180 vs. the US 6"
The belt is facehardened 90mm, outsloped 15 degrees
and capped by the armor deck.
3.2m/cos(15) = 3.312 = 3.32m
47t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
25t - Searchlight tower (NF)
18t - 2TT3 21" 3t
25+5 - Fighter Float + Gunpwdr CAT
57t - 10% rotating wt Power Assist for 180L47
8t - CO2 Compresser A/C
25t - Enhanced Fire Ext.
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
25t - Extra Pumps.
Decks
+7.2
+4.7
+2.2 Top belt, Armored Deck
-0.3
-1.1 Bottom main belt
-2.8
-5.24 Engineering
-5.24 Double Bottom
-6.5 Keel
There are 3 real 'versions' of this concept.
The smallest is a 3m draft, coal/oil burning armed with 165mm and ~2400tons.
The jump to 27 knots, with oil firing, and a deeper draft for seakeeping ....is only 2600 tons.
This is the 3000 ton version, allowing 3 of the 180L43 mounts.
In all cases the Parthians see a need for a smaller cruiser that can be built in numbers and risked.
The 180mm were originally designed for their rotating weight and shell weight to be well within the range for unpowered use, and are provided with hoists so that shell supply can be kept up.
Both the 165mm 65kg and the 180mm 80kg can one-shot a destroyer, but the 180 is more effective against heavier targets.
Originally intended to replace the aged Dolphin gunboats in the far territories, the Porpoise is much like a USN Erie class.
The current version is meant as more a multi-role vessel.
The 4.4m draft is still suited for littoral work and can ascend major rivers.
However, the ship is given speed sufficient to work around the 20kt battleline if pressed into service.
As a Close Escort it would serve as an intermediate screen against MTBs and DDs, while also being equipped to detect and prosecute ASW attacks. It is thought that smaller cruisers like this could be used for 'Sprint and Drift', while the hull form allows good turns and the ability to prosecute the contact.
Against attacking destroyers, the single 180/ 165mm battery is expected to wreck havok. Against smaller cruisers, it is expected to at least give reasonable "punch", as speed will be insufficient to choose range, which is why the 180 is preferred.
Any offensive role would be at night for torpedo attacks, possibly as a follow up to an earlier attack. The Hulesmeyer device has not proved an effective early warning system, but is viewed as promising for night time formation steaming.
The way the gun layout is arranged, the B and Y guns are superimposed to clear A and the aft depth charge deck respectively.
The Torpedo tubes bracke the aft superstructure, which houses the fire control for them.
(3)
A(B) [1] TT (TDC) TT [4] (Y) [Depth Charges]
(4)
The protective deck is 35mm on the flat and 80mm on the slopes. Giving protection against QF weapons, but HE and SAP.
Porpoise, Parthian Frigate laid down 1923
Displacement:
3,000 t light; 3,153 t standard; 3,770 t normal; 4,264 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(393.58 ft / 387.96 ft) x 51.67 ft x (14.44 / 15.78 ft)
(119.96 m / 118.25 m) x 15.75 m x (4.40 / 4.81 m)
Armament:
3 - 7.09" / 180 mm 43.0 cal guns - 176.37lbs / 80.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline forward
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 583 lbs / 264 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.77" / 45 mm 252.17 ft / 76.86 m 12.01 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.38" / 35 mm
Forecastle: 0.00" / 0 mm Quarter deck: 1.38" / 35 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.97" / 50 mm, Aft 1.38" / 35 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 28,300 shp / 21,112 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 6,840nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,111 tons
Complement:
239 - 312
Cost:
£0.848 million / $3.393 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 148 tons, 3.9 %
- Guns: 148 tons, 3.9 %
Armour: 587 tons, 15.6 %
- Belts: 226 tons, 6.0 %
- Armament: 43 tons, 1.1 %
- Armour Deck: 300 tons, 8.0 %
- Conning Towers: 17 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 946 tons, 25.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,076 tons, 28.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 770 tons, 20.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 243 tons, 6.4 %
- Hull below water: 63 tons
- Hull void weights: 45 tons
- Hull above water: 15 tons
- On freeboard deck: 55 tons
- Above deck: 65 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,781 lbs / 1,715 Kg = 21.2 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 13.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.31
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.456 / 0.472
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.51 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.70 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 17.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m, 15.91 ft / 4.85 m
- Forward deck: 40.00 %, 15.91 ft / 4.85 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Average freeboard: 14.63 ft / 4.46 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 145.5 %
Waterplane Area: 12,851 Square feet or 1,194 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 61 lbs/sq ft or 296 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.70
- Longitudinal: 1.34
- Overall: 0.75
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Misc Wt
45- Reserve
15t - FC (16t)
25t - Hulesmeyer
25t - Seachlight tower (Night fighting)
3t : CO2 Compressor A/C Air conditioning
36t : 4 x T3 21" Torpedoes
16t : Depth charges
15t : Extra Fire Fighting
15t : Bow Enhanced Hydrophone station
15t : Amidships Enhanced Hydrophone Station
15t : Extra pumps
18t : Set torpedo reloads
5t : Batteries for silent hunting
Decks :
4.1m : Weather Deck
1.6m : Battery Deck - crown of protective deck
-0.9m : bottom protective deck. 1st Deck
-3.4m : Engineering deck
-4.4 m : Keel
Byzantium has a similar approach with the Colonial Cruisers (AGB4600). 3000t to 6000t and able of escorting BBs. From 2T2x152 , 2T2x191 to 2T2x254 all 27kts.
However, older 27kts cruisers are going to be affected to colonies.
27kts is a correct speed for Colonial Cruisers.
The most modern cruisers will be assigned to the "Home Fleet".
I see your logic with that, and this smaller ship is emulating that.
I also see a greater need for numbers for presence, so small is good.
The 8000 ton cruiser is an interesting concept, but pricey, and not armored like I would prefer.
Also your bigger guns are why I went with my 'midsize' 180s.
More musing done while watching TV as my brain slowly turns off for the evening.
This is a smaller, slower, weaker armed version of the above,
but mainly meant for a different role - more coast guard cutter / gunboat
The old Dolphin and Recalde classes will eventually age out.
and something new needs to be the 'heavy' associate of
the CPC-1 gunboats and PS-1 patrol ships.
This does have 4 sets of torpedo tubes,
but I am thinking removing them for less on-deck hazards
and just going with a set of submarine-style bow tubes.
Then taking the deck space and weight for launches/marines.
Sabari, Parthian Patrol Corvette laid down 1923
Displacement:
1,999 t light; 2,121 t standard; 2,208 t normal; 2,277 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(366.31 ft / 360.89 ft) x 42.65 ft x (9.84 / 10.08 ft)
(111.65 m / 110.00 m) x 13.00 m x (3.00 / 3.07 m)
Armament:
6 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
1 x 2-gun mount on centreline forward
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 477 lbs / 216 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.36" / 60 mm 234.58 ft / 71.50 m 9.51 ft / 2.90 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.36" / 60 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 1.57" / 40 mm
2nd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.38" / 35 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 2.36" / 60 mm, Aft 0.98" / 25 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 11,184 shp / 8,343 Kw = 23.00 kts
Range 3,200nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 155 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
160 - 209
Cost:
£0.511 million / $2.045 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 144 tons, 6.5 %
- Guns: 144 tons, 6.5 %
Armour: 479 tons, 21.7 %
- Belts: 220 tons, 10.0 %
- Armament: 30 tons, 1.4 %
- Armour Deck: 217 tons, 9.8 %
- Conning Towers: 12 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 382 tons, 17.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 735 tons, 33.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 208 tons, 9.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 259 tons, 11.7 %
- Hull below water: 68 tons
- Hull void weights: 50 tons
- Hull above water: 15 tons
- On freeboard deck: 61 tons
- Above deck: 65 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2,887 lbs / 1,310 Kg = 43.1 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 13.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.25
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.510 / 0.514
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.46 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 17.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 17.72 ft / 5.40 m, 15.42 ft / 4.70 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 15.42 ft / 4.70 m, 12.80 ft / 3.90 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 12.80 ft / 3.90 m, 12.80 ft / 3.90 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 12.80 ft / 3.90 m, 12.80 ft / 3.90 m
- Average freeboard: 13.90 ft / 4.24 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 165.1 %
Waterplane Area: 10,350 Square feet or 962 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 53 lbs/sq ft or 261 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.71
- Longitudinal: 1.21
- Overall: 0.75
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Intended to replace the aged Dolphin gunboats
in the territories.
Named for Persian Dog Breeds, the Sarabi
is the Persian Mastiff, a guard dog.
The alternate name is Sage Mazandarari
A destroyer-esque hull falls in what the Parthians call a Corvette class.
A shallow 3m draft allows ascension of most rivers and littoral shallows. The ship is designed as multirole, capable of patrol, night fighting, and ASW roles.
Armor is sufficient to defeat destroyer rounds at 90deg at over ~7000m.
B and Y guns are superimposed to clear A and the aft depth charge deck respectively.
The Torpedo tubes bracke the aft superstructure, which houses the fire control for them.
(3)
A(B) [1] TT (TDC) TT [4] (Y) [Depth Charges]
(4)
The protective deck is 35mm on the flat and 80mm on the slopes. Giving protection against QF weapons, but HE and SAP.
Misc Wt
50- Reserve
15t - FC
25t - Hulesmeyer
25t - Seachlight tower (Night fighting)
2t : CO2 Compressor A/C Air conditioning
36t : 4 x T3 21" Torpedoes
16t : Depth charges
5t : Paravanes
15t : Extra Fire Fighting
15t : Bow Enhanced Hydrophone station
15t : Amidships Enhanced Hydrophone Station
15t : Extra pumps
18t : Set torpedo reloads
5t : Batteries for silent hunting
Decks :
3.9m : Weather Deck
1.4m : Armor Deck, Top main belt
-1.1m : 1st Deck
: -1.5 bottom main belt
-2.67: Engineering deck
-3.0 m : Keel
For me, 23kts is too low.
I will maintain the speed at 27kts for use in a Colonial Squadron.
--------------------
Older DD could be use in Colonies as GunBoat
If you remove TT from the 500t Spear class you could probably had 4x130(?).
I'd suggest halving the torpedoes, but keeping them on deck for flexible aiming. There are going to be times where they don't want to be heading at the enemy when they launch.
The utility of the second hydrophone installation is what?
Also, underwater tubes tend to have issues launching at above 15kts.....above water tubes give you that option.
I'd suggest moving the torps to the aft deck....out of the way of likely incoming fire, and not around a bunch of important superstructure if they are hit and go off.
I'd prefer 27knots, but that version is the 3000 ton version. 50% increase.
Plus for the additional seakeeping, I had to increase the draft and length.
The draft then exceeds the depth I want.
One of the issues I am trying to balance is I only have so much BP, so 10x 3000 tons may be more useful
than trying to split the same tonnage between a more 'coastal' and a more 'fleet' vessel.
Underwater tubes - the information I've read is 20 knots was about the top end.
That's close to the 23, and so slightly slowing to fire would not be a tremendous sacrifice.
I was also thinking that not having to turn broadside to launch makes you a harder target,
and more likely to surprise. Especially at night, when that distant DD turns and clears it's side arcs
that should be a cue for the other side to pour on the fire to score some hits, then take evasive
because you can assume Torps inbound. Now if you have them in searchlight or starflare, you may
be able to see if they have launched or not...with bow on underwater tubes you'll have no idea.
Just a concept that floated to mind as an option. Appreciate the feedback on the idea.
Aft deck - that's where the Depth charges are, which is why "Y" is superimposed for clear fire aft.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on March 17, 2022, 06:54:16 AM
The utility of the second hydrophone installation is what?
Sorry, missed this in the first response.
Short Answer :This is mainly a storyline matter.
Like the mountings of war tubas and hulesmeyer, and kite balloons
the Parthians are trying to embrace new sensor technology.
Further, while testing may not show dual hydrophones as having great utility, they believe
extended fleet service may lead to uses / techniques they did not think to test for.
The 'opportunity cost' of such things is modest.
This is much the same reason why I have 2 forms of most new turrets.
First one is free, but the second costs a tiny bit extra, but by having competing designs, the Parthians
can field the one that works the best.
SIM-wise, not needed as everything works.....reality wise, not a bad idea
...and it is intended to 'storyline' a form a thoroughness.
Overall, it's part of my effort to 'show' the Parthians being willing to
try different approaches to see what works best.
Additionally it goes to their paying attention to not only ship defenses but fleet defenses.
Each part of the fleet has a role with the rest.
Much longer answer Hydrophones are newish, and the enhanced versions are new for the Parthians and clearly better than the old version.
The Parthians have mounted a large number of them on new or rebuilt ships, and refitted some that were built with basic hydrophones - I count 87 in service, 8 building.
In addition to the ability to hear submarines, they can hear the screws and hull turbulence of other ships, providing long range warning.
That ability is one of great interest, and so you are seeing hydrophones on non-ASW ships,
and I'm starting to propose redundant installations as a 'low cost' way of the Parthians exploring potential
ways to take advantage of this technology.
Where is the optimal place in the hull? Reject the turbulent stern, but try the other two. Does the answer change in different seas, different thermal regimes?
While training or experiments will largely provide answers, the Parthians think that in-service over time is useful to find the 'best' ways to use the equipment.
It also gives them a chance to compare the differences in operators - how crucial is that?
Operators get weary. Does having redundancy increase the detection effectiveness?
Directionality - This is more of a long shot. Enhanced Hydrophones give some directionality, but Currently, multiple vessels are needed to triangulate a contact. I expect experiment would show that two on one ship do not serve that role. There would be some hope that as operators get even more experience perhaps they can figure a way?
Result - I expect that I will be eventually refurbishing the ships, adding sonar- or replacing one hydrophone loc - and abandoning the twin hydrophones as not sufficiently directional
as to triangulate from one vessel, while concluding that enhanced screening of recruits for top aptitude is more useful than twin installations.
Very Long Answer :The Chinese successes, combined with huge numbers of Byzantine TBs,
and the potential for this to be a new focus for asymmetric warfare,
have had ripple effects on Parthian equipment.
Part of this is seen in the continuation of torpedo nets on Parthian DNs,
despite TDS, even to the extent of retrofitting the new
Tiamat class.
They have potential negatives, and 'net cutter' torpedoes can cut the netting.
From the Gallipoli campaign, it is not a guarantee to cut, only drops 1 panel, and
then you have to put a follow up torp in the same spot. Which would be darn
hard for a wave of MTBs or DDs to do, esp vs. a slowly moving ship.
However, all that is if a wave of torpedo armed vessels close on the battleline.
Considerable effort has gone into reducing the ability of the foe to do that.
Key to that is the Parthians have been trying different ways of detecting foes sufficiently far away
to take action.
Not all of these are necessarily useful, but the choice was made to field them,
and then see how effective they were in service, with the expectation many in use
may lead to unforeseen innovations that prove useful.
You saw with the MTBs swarms the Parthians upgunned their destroyers and
built a series of mid-sized cruisers
Maelstrom and Ranger - 12 vessels - with 165mm QFs, focused on forward fire, which could charge the attackers
and seriously damage and disrupt them.
... but also with war tubas and hulesmeyer gear trying to find ways to expand detection range.
Now, having realized these cruisers are too capable to be restricted to a defensive role,
they have built / refitted the sentry frigates.
So on future vessels, the war tubas, which I expect are useless on a ship at sea, are discarded.
Searchlight towers (my euphemism for Night Fighting gear) are popping up. These Dedicated searchlight towers are found as part of the night fighting evolution.
The hulesmeyer, which is at least useful for avoiding night time collisions, and is likely good for formation keeping,
is retained.
There is a baseline irony in that the Chinese successes are against the background of a Japanese fleet generally lacking QF secondaries or fire control,
which meant the MTBs survived the approach much better, could saturate the defenses, and launch from a short range - and launch range is key to hit rates.
The Japanese still innovated and provided effective defensive measures that devastated some later MTB attacks.
So...the Parthians are probably over reacting to the perceived threat of torpedoes, the chance of large numbers of vessels launching at 4000m from my battleline
is...very low.
...and then came the Caicos, a tooth and nail brawl at close quarters where an Aztec capital ship got torpedoed by an cruiser...at short range.
Granted the MTB attack misfired and got chewed up, but doctrine says use those at night anyhow.
In which case it's prudent to be able to find and react to incoming charges by MTBs or DDs.
I have tried to take the same proactive route with my AA batteries, but have relented when criticized for it.
I confess that getting push back on my AA batteries annoys me, because I've built a history here
of a navy that tries to be proactive in providing defenses, and the 'opportunity cost' of extra AA guns is trivial, compared
to the original history claims of tremendous air craft effectiveness.
But the French Sufferen was a 1924 LD, after which I can justifiable put more AA on.
Just overall, I'm willing to field slightly slower ships if it frees the weight for slightly more sensors and armor.
in HY1, 1921, the Parthians finished the 1918 Fire Control.
In HY2, 1921, they refurbished several ships, including the 230L44 armed
Rustam ACs .
This vessel served as the test bed for both 'in service' trials of the concepts, and 'how does one retrofit this ship for this system'.
The 1918 fire control increases effective gunnery control from 14km to 24km (further than I think it should), and starts to incorporate aerial spotting.
Dyebags become very useful for telling which squadron ship is doing what.
Though Parthian Naval Air is still weak - 12 Kite Balloons, 40 seaplanes and the 15 wheeled planes on the experimental flight deck carrier,
they are starting to put floatplanes and gunpowder cats on board ships, though in many cases they may need to substantially remodel the superstructure.
They also now have 3 types of AAA available - 90, 57 and 15MG, but most vessels have nothing
Lastly, they have been working hard on night fighting proficiency, and while a minimum of large diameter optics, red lighting, hooded lamps and running lights is cheap and easy, mostly
falling in basic ships fittings, the top end of their plans include a night fighting suite with a central searchlight tower, a tactical plotting system, starshell mortars, and hulesmeyer devices for collision warning/station keeping. As I recall the hulesmeyer is only useful for direction to a metal object and out to about 10km, but it really should be useful for nighttime formation steaming and maneuvers.
Irony is the
Gilgamesh class was designed pre-fire control, and so designed to slug it out vs. 345mm at 6000m, very difficult to penetrate belt + protective deck....perfect for night fighting. But fiitting FC took most of it's reserve, because I was just setting aside 1-2% of LD. So they don't have room for the full NF suite....argh.
A refurbishing I shall go, a refurbishing I shall go, hi ho a dairy o, a refurbishing I will go.
I also want to proliferate minesweeping paravanes through the fleet better. I have been very negligent on this. Which is odd since I have one of the better minesweeping forces with over 100 sweep-capable ships...maybe that's why it didn't seem pressing.
While LR radios should be upgraded through general maintenance, as I refurbish and refit my ships, especially for the <1910 hulls, I'm 'spending' to replace the LR Radios completely.
Basic RefitsSo rather than post a whole series of SS's when mainly I'm shuffling deck chairs... well sometimes I'm removing old 60L50QFs and adding AA,
but everything is a basic refit... so I figured I'd try this format - just showing what I changed and what the costs are.
IF anyone wants the SS's....that's standard we normally use, and I'm quite willing to post them
| BR FC – Sparabara AC | 2 | 0.078 | 0.078 | 1-3, 4-6 |
| BR FC+ Asbara AC | 4 | 0.264 | 0.264 | 1-3, 2-4, 3-5, 4-6 |
| BR FC+ Rohk BB | 2 | 0.208 | 0.208 | 1-3, 4-6 |
| BR FC+ Gilgamesh | 4 | 0.278 | 0.278 | 1-3, 2-4, 3-5, 4-6 |
| BR FC+ Enki | 2 | 0.358 | 0.358 | 1-3, 4-6 |
| BR FC + Rohk | 2 | 0.184 | 0.184 | 1-3, 4-6 |
| Seaplane Carrier | 4 | 0.025 | 0.025 | 1-3, 2-4, 3-5, 4-6 |
| Flight Deck Carrier | 1 | 0.022 | 0.022 | 4-6 |
| Torpedo Boat Carrier | 1 | 0.02 | 0.02 | 1-3 |
| GB-5-6 Recalde | 2 | 0.007 | 0.007 | 1-3 |
| PC Shabrang | 2 | 0.035 | 0.035 | 1-3, 4-6 |
| PC3-4 Rakash | 2 | 0.051 | 0.051 | 2-4, 3-5 |
| PC 5-6 Kanthaka | 2 | 0.079 | 0.079 | 1-3, 4-6 |
| CR1,3 Varyu/Vata–FC+ | 2 | 0.296 | 0.296 | 1-3, 4-6 |
| CR 2,4 Saka -FC | 2 | 0.039 | 0.039 | 2-4, 3-5 |
1922.0 Fleet Fire Control Refits
Quote
Class : Sparabara, Parthian Armored Cruiser laid down 1899, Refurbished 1921 Current Misc WeightMisc Wt :
45t reserve
78t FC -1912
25t LR Radio
25t Searchlight Tower
5t Paravanes
9t CO2 Air Conditioning
137 Torpedo Nets
501 Turbo Generator
Basic Refit Misc WeightMisc Wt :
78t FC -1918
Cost : 78t = $0.078, 0.078[/b]
Quote
Class : Asbara, Parthian Armored Cruiser laid down 1908 Current Misc WeightMisc Weight :
75t- Additional "Windcatcher" ventilation
25t - Long range radio
110t - fire control 1910 (1905 as designed, but completed HY1 1910, so completed with 1910)
178t - torpedo nets
40t - torpedo flat above stern armor deck
150t - miscellaneous weight.
1913-1914 FC fleet upgrades to 1912 FC
Basic Refit Misc WeightRemove 12x 60L50 QF M
Add 6x 2G 57L60AA M - 44t total
Misc Weight : Changes
AD:
110t - fire control 1918
25t - Long range radio
+25t – Searchlight Tower (Night Fighting )
+25t - Hulesmeyer
OD
+5t – Paravanes
+25t – Armed Floatplane
+5t - Gunpowder Catapult
+5t – Hanger structure amidships
HBW
-90t – Miscellaneous weight
45t - const. Resv.
Cost: 264t = $0.264, 0.264 Quote
Class : Gilgamesh, Parthian Dreadnaught laid down 1906
Current Misc WeightMisc. Weight :
162t - torpedo nets
40t - 4x TT, 2 each beam, 20 x 18" Torpedoes
115t - Extra ventilation "Windcather" evaportive cooling
35t- Short & Long range Radios
242t - 1910 Fire Control
8t- Construction reserve
1911 HY2 :
Basic Refit, upgrade to 1910 Fire Control
1913-1914 fleet refits :
Improve FC to 1912: Primitive FC computers -14km
Basic Refit Misc WeightRemove 12x 60L50 QF M
Add 6x 2G 57L60AA M - 34t total
243t – 1918 FC
-10t - Free SR Radio
25t - New LR Radio
+5– Basic Night fighting gear
+5 Paravanes
Cost: 278t, $0.278, 0.278 Quote
Class : Enki, Parthian Dreadnaught laid down 1907 Current Misc WeightMiscellaneous weight
50t Const Reserve
242 1912 FC
25 LR Radio
110 Improved Evaporative ventilation
1911 basic refitImprove FC to 1910
1913-1914 fleet refits :
Improve FC to 1912: Primitive FC computers -14km
Basic Refit Misc WeightRemove 12x 60L50 QF M
Add 6x 2G 57L60AA M - 35t total
AD
243t - Fire Control 1918
25t - LR Radio
+25t -Searchlight Tower
+25t - Hulesmeyer
OD
+5t - Paravanes
Cost: 358t = $0.358, 0.358 Quote
Class : Rohk, Parthia battleship laid down 1900 Current Misc WeightMisc Wt.
25t- Long Range Radios, as built
73t - 0.5% increased ventilation
40t - 4 torpedo tubes (2 each beam) with 20 18" torpedoes
148t - Torpedo Nets
145t - Construction reserve
1907 refurb : 138t
105t : +1905 fire control
-105t : construction reserve
-16x 45L45
25t +16x 60L50
-15t :construction reserve
1913-14 FC refits : 1912 FC
Basic Refit Misc Weight 1922 FC refits
- 16x 60L50
+4 x 90L50AA, +2x 57L60
108t - 1918 FC
25t – LR Radio
+25t - Searchlights Columns(NF)
+5t Paravanes
Note : in 1922.0 the new 180L47s are not yet ready, a refurbishment is planned for 1923.0.
Cost: Total : 27+25+17.9+108 +30 = $0.208, 0.208 Quote
Class : Simurgh, Parthian Battleship laid down 1904 Current Misc WeightMisc Wt.
85t - 0.5% "Windcatcher" increased ventilation
40t - 4 torpedo tubes (2 each beam) with 20x 18" torpedoes
149t - Torpedo Nets
144t - 1910 Fire Control
26t - void, construction reserve (1%)
1907 Refit :
-144t Constrution Reserve
144t 1905 Fire Control
1912 Basic Refit :
144t 1910 Fire Control
1913-1914 fleet refits :
Improve FC to 1912: Primitive FC computers -14km
Basic Refit Misc Weight+ 6 x 15mm 'Wirblewind' AA mounts. = 5.1 t
Miscellaneous Weight 1922 Basic Refit
AD
144t Fire Control 1918
25t LR Radio
+5t - basic NF
OD
+5t - Paravanes
HAW
HBW
Cost: 184.1t = $0.184, 0.184 Quote
Class : PC-1 Shabrang R1920, Parthia Protected Cruiser laid down 1900 (Engine 1920) Current Misc WeightMisc Wt
10t- Resv
30t - FC - 1912
25t - LR radio
25t - Searchlight tower
36t - 4TT3 21"
6t - CO2 Air Compressor A/C
25t - Enhanced fire suppression
25t - Enhanced Pumps
145t - Torpedo Nets
394t - Turboelectric drive.
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
Basic Refit Misc Weight30t - FC – 1918
+5t - Paravanes
-5t- Resv
Cost: 35t = $0.035 , 0.035 Quote
Class : PC3-4 Rakash Current Misc WeightMisc Wt
30t - Misc Wt
46t - FC - 1912
25t - LR Radio
25t - Searchlight tower
36t - 4TT3 21"
6t - CO2 Compressor AC
441t - Turbogenerator
25t - Extra Pumps
Basic Refit Misc Weight46t - FC – 1918
+5t Paravanes
-5t Reserve
Cost: 51t = $ 0.051, 0.051 Quote
Class : PC 5-6 Kanthaka Current Misc Weight60t construction reserve
49t FC -1912
25t LR radio
25t Searchlight tower (NF)
6t CO2 Compressor AC
36t 4TT3 TT 21"
160t - Provisions for 160mines on 2nd deck, aft ports for dropping
25t - Enhanced fire extinguishers
25t - enhanced pumps
15t - Enhanced hydrophones
36t - spare torpedoes
Basic Refit Misc Weight49t FC -1918
25t LR Radio
+5t Paravanes
-5t Reserve
Cost: 79t = $0.079, 0.079 Quote
Class : CR-1/3 Varyu / Vatu, Parthian Raider laid down 1911
Current Misc WeightMiscellaneous Weight
25t Fire Control 1910
25t Long range radio
160t - 2x MTB-A
35t - 'windcatcher' evaporative cooling
40t- Marine Quarters
20t- Brig
8t - tender capacity for 2 MTBs
4 underwater torpedo tubes in stern, located below armored deck.
60t - 30 spare 18 " torpedoes
245t (~10t day, 21 days base, +29days, 45 days cruise range + days spare)
115t- Spare
1913-1914 fleet refits :
Improve FC to 1912: Primitive FC computers -14km
Basic Refit Misc Weight-7.5mm Mgs
+8x 57L60 : 22.8t total
25t FC – 1918
25t LR Radio
+25t Hulesmeyer
+25t Searchlight Tower
+5t Paravanes
168t : Convert MTB-A to MTB-D handling
New Reserve : 30t
Cost: 295.8 = $0.295.8, 0.295.8 Quote
For the other vessels, the cost of FC is the cost,
or the cost of FC+LR radio
Since I'm discussing matters with Jefgte with the Aux thing,
I thought I would post a ship designed for basically exactly the same role,
that I think would fall in Aux.
This is trying to demonstrate that I am enforcing the same rules on myself as well.
The real differences are his slightly more effective main gun and greater speed.
Speed- I could try to justify +3 over the 1915 fleet submarine surfaced speed, as the RN felt 2-3 knots
were sufficient to choose range. However that would put me at 20kts- the same as my battleline.
PLUS, auxiliaries should be about the lower end.
So I deliberately choose less - 19knts seems about the defensible max speed.
The cruise range and speed is also dramatically less. The vessel simply can't operate with fleet elements
without them substantially reducing performance. It can work ahead or behind the fleet, and support the fleet.
It is Aux.
Gun - You need somewhere between 75mm minimum to reasonably damage the sail of a submarine.
75mm seems most common, though some subchasers had 6-pdrs.
For me the options would be 57/60/90. 90mm is my smallest modern in common service.
Cargo - A ship with a higher % allocated to cargo/fleet supply/ etc is easier to tell.
But for these ships, we're talking a
I was going to commence construction in 1922.5,as
Quote
Gnat Patrol Aux, Parthian Small Coastal Auxiliary laid down 1922
Displacement:
280 t light; 289 t standard; 300 t normal; 310 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(163.72 ft / 160.76 ft) x 22.97 ft x (5.45 / 5.58 ft)
(49.90 m / 49.00 m) x 7.00 m x (1.66 / 1.70 m)
Armament:
1 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal gun - 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1904 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
6 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
1 x Twin mount on centreline, aft deck centre
1 raised mount
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 23 lbs / 10 kg
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 2,202 shp / 1,642 Kw = 19.00 kts
Range 2,420nm at 8.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 21 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
35 - 46
Cost:
£0.059 million / $0.238 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 5 tons, 1.5 %
- Guns: 5 tons, 1.5 %
Machinery: 76 tons, 25.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 128 tons, 42.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 21 tons, 6.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 71 tons, 23.6 %
- Hull below water: 37 tons
- Hull void weights: 1 tons
- Hull above water: 17 tons
- On freeboard deck: 15 tons
- Above deck: 1 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
474 lbs / 215 Kg = 21.3 x 3.5 " / 90 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 10.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.27
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.523 / 0.527
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 12.68 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 13.94 ft / 4.25 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 9.02 ft / 2.75 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.02 ft / 2.75 m, 9.02 ft / 2.75 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.02 ft / 2.75 m, 9.02 ft / 2.75 m
- Average freeboard: 10.08 ft / 3.07 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.1 %
Waterplane Area: 2,513 Square feet or 233 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 127 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 140 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.83
- Longitudinal: 5.00
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The Small Auxiliary type
needs to meet several
parameters
1. Coastal/Riverine water Patrol
2. Subchaser
3. Minesweepe
Role 3 is expected to be the peacetime occupation for roles 1 & 2.
Coastal/Riverine Patrol
Void : 1t Reserve
AD :
1t 1918 FC
OD:
5t Advanced Paravanes
10t : Short Term berths 4 marines / long 2
HAW :
1t CO2 Compressor AC
1t Small Arms Locker
5t Brig
10t : Short term berths 4 marines / long 2
HBW
16 : Short term berths 6 marines / long 4
19t Turboelectric Generators
3t Batteries.
Subchaser configuration
Void : 1t Reserve
AD :
1t FC 1918
OD :
5t : Advanced Paravanes
10t : DC
HAW :
1t CO2 Compressor AC
1t Small Arms locker
5t Brig
10t Cargo
HBW
15t : Enhanced Hydrophones
19t : Turboelectrice Generators
3t : Batteries
Minesweeper Configuration
Void : 1 tons reserve
AD :
1t FC 1918
OD :
5t Paravanes
25t Minesweeping Trawls
HAW
1t CO2 compressor AC
1t Small Arms locker
5t Brig
10t Cargo
HBW
19t : Turboelectric generator
3t : Batteries
2% Normal : 6.0, vs guns 5t
Aux Cost : 70t
So for 1922,
I have the Gnat Class which is waiting until 1922.5 for a refreshed 90L45 mount,
I have the 1922 version of the Kalifern BB, which ..I need to check...is waiting for the 365L50 'True Quad'....which gets modeled the same as the 'pair of twins'.
I thought I would explore a seaplane tender.
Parthia has a number of island chains, and being able to setup a full airpoint capable of naval reconnaissance and strike,
rather than a couple planes off an experimental carrier.
I also stuck net-tending in as a dual role. The new auxiliaries I'm considering
will help establish forward operating bases in places the foe may not expect.
These can be repair/refuel locations.
I would like a little more top speed, but if the tender is operating solo and trying to run on the surface from a sub,
something may have already gone wrong.
Light Displacement is kept to 15,000, so 15+9 = 24 , the vessel can be built in 4 HY.
At 3.75BP total and 0.9375 / hy
Avo Piarika, Parthia Seaplane Tender laid down 1922
Displacement:
15,000 t light; 15,426 t standard; 16,886 t normal; 18,055 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(460.20 ft / 452.76 ft) x 90.22 ft x (20.67 / 21.92 ft)
(140.27 m / 138.00 m) x 27.50 m x (6.30 / 6.68 m)
Armament:
8 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1922 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
6 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1922 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1922 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 763 lbs / 346 kg
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 3 shafts, 10,255 shp / 7,650 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 12,060nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,630 tons
Complement:
739 - 962
Cost:
£1.674 million / $6.696 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 146 tons, 0.9 %
- Guns: 146 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 348 tons, 2.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,001 tons, 23.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,886 tons, 11.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 10,506 tons, 62.2 %
- Hull below water: 3,557 tons
- Hull void weights: 140 tons
- Hull above water: 6,440 tons
- On freeboard deck: 300 tons
- Above deck: 69 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
30,771 lbs / 13,957 Kg = 459.0 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 3.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.72
Metacentric height 10.4 ft / 3.2 m
Roll period: 11.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a round stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.700 / 0.706
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.02 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.28 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 23.62 ft / 7.20 m, 21.16 ft / 6.45 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 21.16 ft / 6.45 m, 18.70 ft / 5.70 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 18.70 ft / 5.70 m, 18.70 ft / 5.70 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 18.70 ft / 5.70 m, 18.70 ft / 5.70 m
- Average freeboard: 19.76 ft / 6.02 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 162.6 %
Waterplane Area: 32,741 Square feet or 3,042 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 146 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 96 lbs/sq ft or 471 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.65
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
'Avo' - to support 'Pairika' 'a fairie'.
Dathrish - the Giver/Benefactress
Intended to support flying boats from a variety of anchorages
as a seaplane tender.
In 1922 the Parthians are very unsure how to do air group command and control.
They add a bonus SR radio for a dedicated airgroup channels, as well as an RDF beacon.
They also provide large space from which to plot search areas, plane positions, and
air group coordination. They expect the room use will change as operations define
what is infact needed.
The vessel also carries a small group of on-board planes.
These are both an experiment, and to try to keep enemy reconnaisance at bay
Anchorage Torpedo nets are carried, these are double weight Bullivant nets, 50kg per square meters.
Each 10m x 10m section is 5000kg = 11240lbs = 4.9 naval tons.
To carry that the float must displace as much or more in seawater volume.
1 cu meter of seawater weighs 1,024 kg....so 5 cu meters would > the net
110m...which.....ah lets call the floats 0.6tons, so it's 10m for 5.5 tons.
Overall, this allows 3.6km of netting, which should mean the vessel can secure and anchorage
and landing area. If kept to the shallows the netting should extend to the bottom. Otherwise they can be placed close to ships so that there is no room for a sub to sneak under, rise and fire.
This is half of what the ships pay (which is 1t/1m)...but the ships have it on 2 sides, but only
80% of length, so it's not far off, and should represent the later heavier british Nets, which stop
~75% of net cutter torpedoes or more.
Armanent is casement mounted 120mm for surface raiders, expected to be fast and high speed,
and a heavy suite of AA to fend off enemy air.
"Armanent": 2% of Normal = 16,886 * 0.02 = 337.72
Guns : 109
Armed Floatplanes : 180
Total : 285
Miscellaneous Wieght :
140t reserve
AD:
11t Fire Control 1918
25t LR Fire Control
10t SR Radio - Dedicated Flight Command
23t Cage Mast for Air Traffic Control
OD:
180 : 6x 25+5 Armed Float Plane
120 : Air plotting room....
HAW
6400t Seaplane Tender
15t CO2 Compressor AC
25t Additional Fire Suppression
HBW
1980t - Bueliviant Torpedo netting and floats. 3600m
20 : Additional stores & avgas for floatplanes
1000t : AVGAS
420t : Torpedo & munitions storage
25t : Additional pumps
25t : Additional fire suppression for AV GAS
87t : Turbogenerator
I like it, and I can see why Parthia would be interested in one. It's not a role I think the Union is interested in just yet.
The netlaying function makes sense and at the same time I'd also wonder about keeping it in a separate hull in case net maintenance might interfere with floatplaning.
I have an aux design where I've built that netlaying into a Fleet Support Vessel, so that might indeed be more appropriate.
Hmm, perhaps I should allocate 100 tons for a "50t Net tender Launch " ?
Have to scrape it off other misc allocations.
That might do it. You could just knock off a few metres of actual net to find the savings.
ooh I like that, a less painful way to find the weight !
After the DC discussion,
I realized that the version II of the Gnat Aux I got 'off course'.
So, like Jefgte was arranging different gun batteries, I will do the same.
6pdrs are the low end of what SC's mounted, I have a very nice recent researched one with a new mount...
So this is the revised Subchaser version, same hull/hardware, but gets back into the aux role.
As 90% of it's life will be patrol / coast guard work, provision for marine fire teams is still made.
Gnat Patrol Aux, Parthian Small Coastal Auxiliary laid down 1922
Displacement:
280 t light; 289 t standard; 300 t normal; 310 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(163.72 ft / 160.76 ft) x 22.97 ft x (5.45 / 5.58 ft)
(49.90 m / 49.00 m) x 7.00 m x (1.66 / 1.70 m)
Armament:
1 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal gun - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1917 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
6 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 2,500 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
1 x Twin mount on centreline, aft deck centre
1 raised mount
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 7 lbs / 3 kg
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 2,202 shp / 1,642 Kw = 19.00 kts
Range 2,420nm at 8.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 21 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
35 - 46
Cost:
£0.058 million / $0.231 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2 tons, 0.7 %
- Guns: 2 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 76 tons, 25.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 127 tons, 42.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 20 tons, 6.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 75 tons, 25.0 %
- Hull below water: 37 tons
- Hull void weights: 2 tons
- Hull above water: 17 tons
- On freeboard deck: 18 tons
- Above deck: 1 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
493 lbs / 224 Kg = 87.3 x 2.2 " / 57 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 10.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.28
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.523 / 0.527
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 12.68 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 13.94 ft / 4.25 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 9.02 ft / 2.75 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.02 ft / 2.75 m, 9.02 ft / 2.75 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.02 ft / 2.75 m, 9.02 ft / 2.75 m
- Average freeboard: 10.08 ft / 3.07 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.1 %
Waterplane Area: 2,513 Square feet or 233 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 128 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 138 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.84
- Longitudinal: 4.91
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
I have realized that the Variant 2 of the Gnat class will
need different armanent for it's role, in order to stay in
the Aux class.
So instead of the 1x 90mm,
it will mount 1x 57L60 in the new AS mount.
The brits mounted 6pdrs, so it's not 'too small', just not as good.
Very high velocity, flat shots, it is expected to penetrate
the pressure hull at relatively close ranges.
1. Coastal/Riverine water Patrol
2. Subchaser
3. Minesweeper
Normal Disp : 300t x 0.02 = 6t arms
Configuration 1 & 3 : 1x90L45, 6x 15L70 : 4.46 tons
All ok
Version 2 : Guns : 2.46tons = ok, 3.54 tons 'slack'.
Subchaser configuration
Void : 2t Reserve
AD :
1t FC 1918
OD :
5t : Advanced Paravanes
3t : DC 195kg x 15
10t : Short term berths 4 marines
HAW :
1t CO2 Compressor AC
1t Small Arms locker
5t Brig
10t : Short term berths 4 marines
HBW
15t : Enhanced Hydrophones
19t : Turboelectrice Generators
3t : Batteries
Aux Cost : 70t
A 57mm hole is still a bad thing for most submarines. It'll be a handy asset.
This is the reworked Seaplane tender.
The deployable anchorage torpedo net is now only 3km,
but there are two 100ton tugs to serve as net tenders.
The avgas is quantified at 6lbs/gal and specified as a separate tanks for it,
random guess that reduces it to 80% fuel / 20% storage for that weight.
Avo Piarika, Parthia Seaplane Tender laid down 1922
Displacement:
15,000 t light; 15,426 t standard; 16,886 t normal; 18,055 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(460.32 ft / 452.76 ft) x 90.22 ft x (20.67 / 21.92 ft)
(140.30 m / 138.00 m) x 27.50 m x (6.30 / 6.68 m)
Armament:
8 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1922 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
6 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1922 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1922 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 763 lbs / 346 kg
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 3 shafts, 10,255 shp / 7,650 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 12,060nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,630 tons
Complement:
739 - 962
Cost:
£1.674 million / $6.696 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 146 tons, 0.9 %
- Guns: 146 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 348 tons, 2.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,996 tons, 23.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,886 tons, 11.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 10,511 tons, 62.2 %
- Hull below water: 3,227 tons
- Hull void weights: 75 tons
- Hull above water: 6,440 tons
- On freeboard deck: 700 tons
- Above deck: 69 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
31,532 lbs / 14,303 Kg = 470.4 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 3.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.68
Metacentric height 10.1 ft / 3.1 m
Roll period: 11.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.98
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a round stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.700 / 0.706
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.02 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.28 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 36
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 24.28 ft / 7.40 m, 24.28 ft / 7.40 m
- Forward deck: 25.00 %, 24.28 ft / 7.40 m, 24.28 ft / 7.40 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 16.08 ft / 4.90 m, 16.08 ft / 4.90 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 16.08 ft / 4.90 m, 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Average freeboard: 18.16 ft / 5.54 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 72.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 164.5 %
Waterplane Area: 32,741 Square feet or 3,042 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 146 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 98 lbs/sq ft or 478 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.52
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
'Avo' - to support 'Pairika' 'a fairie'.
Dathrish - the Giver/Benefactress
Intended to support flying boats from a variety of anchorages
as a seaplane tender.
The stern ramps down, intended to allow floatplanes to advance onto a wire mesh mat and then be winched up the fantail.
The gunpowder catapults fire directly over the bow.
In 1922 the Parthians are very unsure how to do air group command and control.
They add a bonus SR radio for a dedicated airgroup channels, as well as an RDF beacon.
They also provide large space from which to plot search areas, plane positions, and
air group coordination. They expect the room use will change as operations define
what is infact needed.
The vessel also carries a small group of on-board planes.
These are both an experiment, and to try to keep enemy reconnaisance at bay
Anchorage Torpedo nets are carried, these are double weight Bullivant nets, 50kg per square meters.
Each 10m x 10m section is 5000kg = 11240lbs = 4.9 naval tons.
To carry that the float must displace as much or more in seawater volume.
1 cu meter of seawater weighs 1,024 kg....so 5 cu meters would > the net
110m...which.....ah lets call the floats 0.6tons, so it's 10m for 5.5 tons.
So 3.0km is 300 x 10m sections or 1650t
Overall, this allows 3.0km of netting, which should mean the vessel can secure and anchorage and landing area. If kept to the shallows the netting should extend to the bottom. Otherwise they can be placed close to ships so that there is no room for a sub to sneak under, rise and fire.
This is half of what the ships pay (which is 1t/1m)...but the ships have it on 2 sides, but only
80% of length, so it's not far off, and should represent the later heavier british Nets, which stop
~75% of net cutter torpedoes or more.
A pair of 100t launches are carried to serve as nettenders.
Armanent is casement mounted 120mm for surface raiders, expected to be fast and high speed,
and a heavy suite of AA to fend off enemy air.
"Armanent": 2% of Normal = 16,886 * 0.02 = 337.72
Guns : 109
Armed Floatplanes : 180
Total : 285
Miscellaneous Wieght :
75t reserve
AD:
11t Fire Control 1918
25t LR Fire Control
10t SR Radio - Dedicated Flight Command
23t Cage Mast for Air Traffic Control
OD:
180 : 6x 25+5 Armed Float Plane
120 : Air plotting room....
400 : 2x100t "Nettender" tug
HAW
6400t Seaplane Tender
15t CO2 Compressor AC
25t Additional Fire Suppression
HBW
1650t - Bueliviant Torpedo netting and floats. 3000m
20 : Additional stores & avgas for floatplanes
1000t : AVGAS in cylindrical tanks, sat 80% efficiency (37,333*0.8= 29,866gal)
420t : Torpedo & munitions storage
25t : Additional pumps
25t : Additional fire suppression for AV GAS
87t : Turbogenerator
The pro
Decks :
+7.4 Forecastle deck
+4.9 Weather deck
+2.4 3rd deck
-0.1 2nd Deck
-2.6 1st Deck
-5.1 Engineering
-6.12 Keel, Double Bottom
I am still eyeing getting the next battlewagons laid down in HY2 1922, the build will be slow at first, but I will 'catch up' later.
I've posted earlier iterations of this ship before.
I believe I reworked the belt and deck armor on this.
The belt is now tapered outslope, while the deck armor is backed by a splinterbox around the magazines.
There is provision for floatplanes, either of the scout or fighter type, to either spot or contest spotting.
Combined with the Tiamats and Vazryas, the two Kaliferns will give 8 "battleline" vessels while the two Stormbringer will be the flying wing.
I expect it to be my last 20knt ship, as the fleets of the world have moved away from that.
Currently the Parthians are sticking to the idea that there will be a decisive fight, or threat of one.
Ultimately naval warfare is about the SLOC and strategic points, and In both the Sino-Japanese, Romo-Aztec showdowns the sprint speed of the battleline ultimately meant little.
I may still have a successor to the
Stormbringer in 365L50 and 26-28knots as the 'scout support' and bring the 'flying wing' up to 4 vessels, but as fleets evolve, we'll see.
As always, my desired tonnage expenditure exceeds my actual capabilities.
Quote
Kalifern VII, Parthian Battleship laid down 1922
Displacement:
38,000 t light; 41,568 t standard; 44,212 t normal; 46,327 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(623.12 ft / 616.80 ft) x 114.83 ft (Bulges 124.67 ft) x (31.33 / 32.71 ft)
(189.93 m / 188.00 m) x 35.00 m (Bulges 38.00 m) x (9.55 / 9.97 m)
Armament:
16 - 14.37" / 365 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,719.61lbs / 780.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1922 Model
4 x 4-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
16 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 227 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1922 Model
8 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
10 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1911 Model
6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 800 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1917 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 28,940 lbs / 13,127 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 400.92 ft / 122.20 m 13.32 ft / 4.06 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined 10.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
2.24" / 57 mm 400.92 ft / 122.20 m 34.94 ft / 10.65 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 82.02 ft / 25.00 m
- Hull Bulges:
0.35" / 9 mm 394.52 ft / 120.25 m 23.13 ft / 7.05 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.7" / 425 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 13.8" / 350 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.57" / 40 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
5th: 0.12" / 3 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 5.48" / 139 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 3.94" / 100 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 13.78" / 350 mm, Aft 2.95" / 75 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 39,000 shp / 29,094 Kw = 20.11 kts
Range 8,630nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,759 tons
Complement:
1,523 - 1,981
Cost:
£11.651 million / $46.606 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 6,187 tons, 14.0 %
- Guns: 6,187 tons, 14.0 %
Armour: 14,151 tons, 32.0 %
- Belts: 3,322 tons, 7.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,163 tons, 2.6 %
- Bulges: 120 tons, 0.3 %
- Armament: 4,108 tons, 9.3 %
- Armour Deck: 4,988 tons, 11.3 %
- Conning Towers: 451 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,323 tons, 3.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,656 tons, 33.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,212 tons, 14.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,682 tons, 3.8 %
- Hull below water: 592 tons
- Bulge void weights: 260 tons
- Hull above water: 76 tons
- On freeboard deck: 60 tons
- Above deck: 694 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
55,087 lbs / 24,987 Kg = 37.1 x 14.4 " / 365 mm shells or 10.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 8.8 ft / 2.7 m
Roll period: 17.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.28
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a round stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.642 / 0.645
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.95 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 27.40 ft / 8.35 m, 24.93 ft / 7.60 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 24.93 ft / 7.60 m, 22.47 ft / 6.85 m
- Aft deck: 45.00 %, 14.27 ft / 4.35 m, 14.27 ft / 4.35 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 14.27 ft / 4.35 m, 14.27 ft / 4.35 m
- Average freeboard: 18.49 ft / 5.64 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.7 %
Waterplane Area: 53,872 Square feet or 5,005 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 248 lbs/sq ft or 1,209 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.57
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Mark VI
An All-or-Nothing Design
Kalifern
Dropping the Q turret of the prior class, the limited arcs
mean most of the firepower is retained, and with the upgrade
to the 50 caliber gun, they expect nearly the same combat
effectiveness from the smaller ship.
On paper the throwwieght is 91% the same, but with the improvements in sectional density and better arcs, they expect no functional difference.
Deck Guns
Deck guns are echloned outwards, like on Iowa,
allowing 4 to bear ahead (8 guns), or 4 on each side.
The single 90m AA are above them.
Main Belt Armor
This embraces "all or nothing", but only has 1 deck level unprotected aft and 2 forward.
The main armor deck caps the belt at 1.5m.
Outsloped Wedge shaped Belt
Three steps
1) Figure adjusted height for wedge
2) figure % additional belt height for outsloping
3) apply +% to effective height of wedge.
Step 1
In the VII version, the lower portion of the belt tapers.
The upper 2.5m is a uniform 350mm, extending 0.5m below WL.
the lower 1.5m tapers from 350mm down to 310mm.
Mathwise that means there are 3 sections.
| |
| | A ) Upper, 2500mm (2.5m) x 350mm
\ | |
\| | C) Lower back , 1500 (1.5m) x 310mm
B) Wedge 1/2B x H :
B = 1.5m = 1500
H = 350-310 = 40
A) = 875,000
B) = 30,000
C) = 465,000
SubTotal : 1,370,000
Modeled as average 350mm thickness = /350
Total : 3,914.27857 = 3.91m
Belt is slightly outsloped by 15%.
Step 2 Outsloping
Overall it is 4m high. which is "A" or adjacent
COS 10 = A/H
H* Cos 15 = A
H = A/Cos 15
Which gives 4.1411or 4.15 as the height.
4.141 / 4 = 1.03425
Step 3, applying the outsloping mod to the effective belt height
This is 1.034% more height than the standard 4m non-wedge shaped.
The effective height of the wedge shaped 4m belt is 3.91m of 350mm
So 1.034 * 3.91 = 4.04294m = 4.04
What if I had rounded up?
1.035 * 3.92 = 4.0572 = 4.06
All of which 'saved' only about 80 tons.
Deck Armor
Deck Armored is modeled as two parts
A 35/135/100 main armored deck : 4853 tons
and a 35mm box around the magazines : 133 tons
Which is a total of 4986 tons
To model that, the deck thickness is shown as
35 / 139.2 /100
Which weighs 4988t
Which means vertical is a 135mm deck with a 35mm splinter box over the magazines.
Like most 'all or nothing' the Forecastle and Quarterdeck sections
are set up as protective decks.
TDS
Raised to the underside of the Armor deck at 1.5m above waterline.
TDS : Bulge ||9mm mild hull||, 1m liquid ||9mm mild||, 1m void ||9mm armor||, 1m liquid || armored (2x19=38mm)||,1.5m Dam control/ flooding ||(9mm mild)||
Depth : 1.5m exterior, 3m interior to main bulkhead, 1.5m to second bulkhead. Total :6m, 57mm STS steel
There is a 35mm Box around the magazines this adds 130 tons,
boosting total deck to 4574
260t Reserve Wt
619t Fire Control
25 LR Radio
25 Searchlight Tower
25 Hulesmeyer device
25t +5t : Fighter/Scout floatplane + Gunpowder Cat
25t +5t : Fighter/Scout floatplane + Gunpowder Cat
38t Additional fire suppresion
38t CO2 Air conditioning
38t Extra pumps
331t turbo electric
186t torpedo nets
15t Enhanced Hydrophones
Decks
+4.35 Weather deck
+1.5 Armor Deck 125mm , top of TDS.
-1.2 3rd Deck
-2.5 bottom main belt
-3.2 2nd Deck
-5.7 1st Deck
-8.2 Engineering
-9.16 Double Bottom
Then there's this one, much smaller.
I *thought* I had finalized a 1922 version, but this is 1923.
Basically it's a down-scaled USS Omaha with a 130mm main armament instead of 152mm.
It's meant to provide ships to replace the antiquated
Artesmia class of sailing frigates
as well as provide fleet 'skirmishers', colonial patrol etc.
All better done with a small cruiser than a big destroyer.
Quote
Artesmia, Parthian Frigate laid down 1923
Displacement:
3,000 t light; 3,177 t standard; 3,771 t normal; 4,247 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(462.60 ft / 456.04 ft) x 44.29 ft x (14.21 / 15.49 ft)
(141.00 m / 139.00 m) x 13.50 m x (4.33 / 4.72 m)
Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1923 Model
8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 5.71lbs / 2.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 894 lbs / 406 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.57" / 40 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm
2nd: 1.57" / 40 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
4th: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Box over magazines:
1.38" / 35 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 44,273 shp / 33,028 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 9,110nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,070 tons
Complement:
239 - 312
Cost:
£1.096 million / $4.382 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 209 tons, 5.6 %
- Guns: 209 tons, 5.6 %
Armour: 101 tons, 2.7 %
- Armament: 70 tons, 1.8 %
- Armour Deck: 31 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 1,473 tons, 39.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,056 tons, 28.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 771 tons, 20.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 162 tons, 4.3 %
- Hull below water: 15 tons
- Hull void weights: 17 tons
- Hull above water: 3 tons
- On freeboard deck: 71 tons
- Above deck: 56 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,866 lbs / 846 Kg = 27.8 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 11.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.460 / 0.475
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.30 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 23.62 ft / 7.20 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Forward deck: 21.00 %, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 19.03 ft / 5.80 m
- Aft deck: 44.00 %, 10.83 ft / 3.30 m, 10.83 ft / 3.30 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.83 ft / 3.30 m, 10.83 ft / 3.30 m
- Average freeboard: 15.07 ft / 4.59 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 144.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 143.4 %
Waterplane Area: 12,991 Square feet or 1,207 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 56 lbs/sq ft or 274 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.72
- Longitudinal: 1.06
- Overall: 0.75
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
The armanent is meant to be reminiscant of USS Omaha,
with double stacked casements fore & aft on the freeboard deck and superstructure.
While Omaha had 6" this has 130mm as it's meant to engage small light cruisers and destroyers, or conduct offensive raids of it's own.
With it's long range, this is also viewed as a possible replcement for the Artesmia class Armored Frigates conducting high seas commerce raiding.
The only armor is heavy protection around the magazines to ensure they don't explode.
Originally designed for 32 knots and 1.0 seakeeping, this was reduced to 31 to accomodate more fuel and misc weight.
Resv : 17
AD
21t FC
25t LR Radio
10t Squadron Plot Room
OD
20+5 : Scout Floatplane + Gunpowder Cat
36t 4TT3 21"
10t : Depth Charges
3t - CO2 Compressor AC
HBW
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
Looking a bit more at 1923 and the 1920 cruiser tech,
while the Artesmia II is a small cruiser,
the real question is what to do with the 'standard' cruiser of 6000 tons?
I can continue the Moulek class, I think it's a pretty solid design.
With the 1920 tech, I can 'upscale' from that to an 8000 ton vessel.
...which is 33% larger and more expensive.
So here are two vessels whch explore that.
The first also borrows from the USS Omaha for it's gun layout.
I mean, who Doesn't love double stacked casements ?
The real goal was that each gun would be a single 180, keeping
the weight down and the training rate high.
The downside is with 12x180, only 8 train on the broadside.
Of course, Omaha had the double casements as the USN wanted to maximize foreward fire,
so 6 barrels bear for/aft.
The 90mm belt is really seen as undesirable.
The second is better armored, and has a better broadside, with a Pensacola-like 3(2) (2)3 main battery.
This means all 10 bear on the beam, 25% more than the preceding ship.
The 180 mounts were specially researched for mating with power assist.
Quote
Omaha G 180mm, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1923
Displacement:
8,005 t light; 8,443 t standard; 9,360 t normal; 10,095 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(589.65 ft / 583.99 ft) x 58.40 ft x (20.01 / 21.16 ft)
(179.72 m / 178.00 m) x 17.80 m x (6.10 / 6.45 m)
Armament:
4 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 198.42lbs / 90.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 198.42lbs / 90.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1923 Model
8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 410 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 800 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,506 lbs / 1,137 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.54" / 90 mm 420.47 ft / 128.16 m 10.89 ft / 3.32 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 111 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
Main Belt inclined -15.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 1.77" / 45 mm
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.77" / 45 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.77" / 45 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 3.54" / 90 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 80,687 shp / 60,192 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,652 tons
Complement:
475 - 618
Cost:
£2.373 million / $9.493 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 466 tons, 5.0 %
- Guns: 466 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 1,563 tons, 16.7 %
- Belts: 652 tons, 7.0 %
- Armament: 147 tons, 1.6 %
- Armour Deck: 729 tons, 7.8 %
- Conning Tower: 34 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,697 tons, 28.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,905 tons, 31.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,355 tons, 14.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 375 tons, 4.0 %
- Hull below water: 40 tons
- Hull void weights: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 33 tons
- On freeboard deck: 105 tons
- Above deck: 97 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,519 lbs / 3,411 Kg = 42.3 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 14.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.480 / 0.489
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 14.00 %, 26.61 ft / 8.11 m, 24.15 ft / 7.36 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 24.15 ft / 7.36 m, 21.69 ft / 6.61 m
- Aft deck: 52.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Quarter deck: 14.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
- Average freeboard: 17.05 ft / 5.20 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 111.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 143.9 %
Waterplane Area: 22,319 Square feet or 2,073 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 91 lbs/sq ft or 444 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.88
- Longitudinal: 1.09
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
Modeled on USS Omaha
with above-deck casements for end-on fire
and 180 vs. the US 6"
The belt is facehardened 90mm, outsloped 15 degrees
and capped by the armor deck.
3.2m/cos(15) = 3.312 = 3.32m
47t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
25t - Searchlight tower (NF)
18t - 2TT3 21" 3t
25+5 - Fighter Float + Gunpwdr CAT
57t - 10% rotating wt Power Assist for 180L47
8t - CO2 Compresser A/C
25t - Enhanced Fire Ext.
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
25t - Extra Pumps.
Decks
+7.2
+4.7
+2.2 Top belt, Armored Deck
-0.3
-1.1 Bottom main belt
-2.8
-5.24 Engineering
-5.24 Double Bottom
-6.5 Keel
Quote
Then the 3(2) (2)(3)
A tad slower, but better broadside and belt armor.
While the main battery has power assist, the Parthians are paranoid about being able to traverse rapidly in night attacks by swarms of smaller craft, so a secondary battery is mounted. This reverts to casements, located just under the high freeboard.
The ship could be lighter, or better armored if the secondary was dispensed with.
Quote
Royal Nssean, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1923
Displacement:
7,998 t light; 8,481 t standard; 9,398 t normal; 10,131 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(569.95 ft / 564.30 ft) x 54.66 ft x (22.31 / 23.58 ft)
(173.72 m / 172.00 m) x 16.66 m x (6.80 / 7.19 m)
Armament:
10 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 155 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1923 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 800 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,784 lbs / 1,263 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.53" / 115 mm 400.66 ft / 122.12 m 10.53 ft / 3.21 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 109 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -15.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 1.38" / 35 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.77" / 45 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.77" / 45 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.53" / 115 mm, Aft 1.77" / 45 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 71,876 shp / 53,619 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 7,970nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,650 tons
Complement:
476 - 620
Cost:
£2.486 million / $9.942 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 679 tons, 7.2 %
- Guns: 679 tons, 7.2 %
Armour: 1,649 tons, 17.5 %
- Belts: 768 tons, 8.2 %
- Armament: 164 tons, 1.7 %
- Armour Deck: 658 tons, 7.0 %
- Conning Towers: 60 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 2,402 tons, 25.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,887 tons, 30.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,400 tons, 14.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 381 tons, 4.1 %
- Hull below water: 40 tons
- Hull void weights: 50 tons
- Hull above water: 33 tons
- On freeboard deck: 140 tons
- Above deck: 118 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,662 lbs / 3,475 Kg = 43.1 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.87
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.478 / 0.487
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.32 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.76 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 15.00 %, 26.57 ft / 8.10 m, 24.11 ft / 7.35 m
- Forward deck: 27.00 %, 24.11 ft / 7.35 m, 21.65 ft / 6.60 m
- Aft deck: 44.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Quarter deck: 14.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Average freeboard: 17.75 ft / 5.41 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 108.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.4 %
Waterplane Area: 20,149 Square feet or 1,872 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 96 lbs/sq ft or 470 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.86
- Longitudinal: 1.33
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
The Parthian analog of the Pensacola class.
Featuring the new 180L47 in 2G and 3G mounts with power assist,
the parthians are unsure that traverse rates will be adequate for
night battles, so deck level casements are used for a secondary battery.
The casements are thus high on the hull, not as secure, but not making large flooding ports in the hull, or subject to being washed out in a seaway. Incorporating the casements into the hull girder allows the weights to be transfered directly to the scantlings, for a lower net weight than mountings requiring deck reinforcement. This also allows the superstructure to be extended to the deck edge, increasing interiro space.
New building techniques and lighter cruiser machinery
allow great weight saving compared to preceeding classes
The belt is facehardened 110mm, outsloped 15 degrees
and capped by the armor deck. This is thin by old standards, but the expectation is the ship will be fighting at range.
The deck is a protective deck for and aft of the citadel, and
and armored deck at the citadel.
3.1m/cos(15) = 3.209 = 3.21m
50t - Reserve
AD
68t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
25t - Searchlight tower (NF)
OD
18t - 2TT3 21" 3t
2x 25+5 - Fighter Float + Gunpwdr CAT
62t - 10% rotating wt Power Assist for 180L47
HAW
8t - CO2 Compresser A/C
25t - Enhanced Fire Ext.
HBW
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
25t - Extra Pumps.
Decks
+6.6 Forcastle Deck
+4.1 Weather Deck
+1.6 Battery Deck Top belt, Armored Deck
-0.9 Deck
-1.5 Bottom main belt
-3.4
-5.9 Engineering
-6.8 Keel, double bottom
Quote
They are in the same spirit as the Byzantine projects for 1924:
2T3x191 - 32kts & 3T3x191 - 32kts.
;)
It looks powerful on paper but I remain skeptical that a mount-and-hoist with such heavy projectiles will be effective.
A) I rather expected the Byzantines would have something similar
B) The weight problems are ones the Parthians are concerned with...and I've tried to ensure the mountings will at least be 'adequate'.
The historical Pensacola class was 8"/55 in mount & hoist
but the US laid down a whole bunch of the Pensacolas and their successors before the first were in service.
Then on the next class...they went for proper turrets
Which to me says the Pensacola's mounts were not entirely satisfactory.
edit : generally I do not view the fact they ordered or made something as proof it worked well or was a good idea.
It's if after having it in service a bit, they order more like that.
Here, I've tried to do several things to change that answer.
1. a 180L47 is far lighter than a 203/55. The 3-gun vs triple is 152t vs. 212t Even with the armor, the overall structure is lighter.
2. That weight is still 'high', which is why the mounts were researched as designed for power assist
2. While I could have gone with the 90kg shell, I went with the 85kg, keeping it at the upper limits, and again power assist
I'm not saying I have the magic answer, it's a valid concern, that I've tried to address.
Under Ship Design, I long ago added guidelines, one is about mounting weights and shell weights.
The Parthian 3-Gun is over that 70t before armor, and well over with.
The 2-gun is better off.
The power assist should help.
Functionally I would expect both to be able to traverse fast enough for somewhat distant targets, but - esp the 3-gun- struggle with close-in small fast targets.
Historically the 8-inch US cruisers had real problems with the night actions and short range, these should be better...but not perfect.
The Omaha-style mounts, all singles, should actually do just fine :)
QuoteAs a practical matter, a mount over 45tons rotating weight will be slower to train, power assist or a turret may be recommended. This may be a Twin 152mm/53, or a Single 19cm/45. At weights over 70t, rate of train will be slow and turrets are strongly recommended.
As a practical matter, shells between 60 and 95kg are heavy and the ROF will slowly decrease as the crew gets tired. Power assist will delay this. Hoists are highly recommended.
Shells over 90kg are difficult to handle and are slow to handload. Power hoists and ramming with a turret is recommended.
I acknowledge that the guidelines provide guidance and that you're also trying to address concerns.
It's just not the path I'd take forward, I guess.
I'd be curious to hear your opinion on how to draw that line between clearly to heavy, needs turret,
and clearly doable in mount and hoist.... versus doable in M&H but only with power assist.
I really don't know. The guidelines are what I gleaned from reading comments about guns and mounts on Navweaps
and background discussions on the Washington treaty. Then there's Furutaka with single 200mms, and the Pensacolas
exploring those boundaries.
So come one, come all, comment on where the lines should be !
Oh, and because I researched a 3-gun Mount and hoist doesn't mean I have to fit it,
if trials find it's inadequate I could always just use the 2-gun mount, which is 2/3rds the weight
...
and that's why the Omaha-variant was developed - all singles, all clearly in the weight range for use.
Personally, I wouldn't go above single8" or twin 6" for M&H. The 7" twins, I would assume, would be toeing the line but okish especially if given power assist, I could see the triples having issues in service. You can always build them as flawed ships.
Edit: I just saw the secondaries, they are... quite heavy. Do you really need all that AA and all those 120mms?
I guess I see three functional differences between M&H and turrets, at least in the "modern" era:
1) I assume M&H is manually rotated/elevated, while turrets have some sort of built-in mechanical movement on account of sheer weight.
2) I assume M&H shells are manually loaded once they arrive at the gun, whereas I assume the turret shells are entirely mechanically loaded.
3) I assume the M&H below-decks protection is much more compact than the barbette. I assume the former literally only protects the hoist itself, whereas the barbette protects the powder and shell rooms.
The difference in weight between the two types is close enough that I'm comfortable with adding 10% of mount weight to cover off the power-assist elements of #1.
If power-assist is meant to also capture the loading process, then I dunno. My admittedly limited reading suggests that manually loading 6" was a real hassle on smaller ships (cruisers or liners, not so much), and that the British 7.5" is noted as "cumbersome". There are certainly strong guys with good backs to recruit, but nobody's going to be speed-running the loading of hundred-pound projectiles for long (and I acknowledge that's about where the guidelines step in).
I think if you want the training and loading perks of a turret but don't want a big ring of steel under it to protect your shells and powder storage, you just go with a turret and keep the barbette at 0mm rather than M&H with extra weight.
I think my other issue is I'm not sure why a cruiser with M&H 190mm guns should benefit from a lower composite hull strength than a cruiser with those guns on barbettes.
I look at the difference between M&H and T&B as a bit different.
T&B has a multi-deck rotating structure with powder handling level and shell level, all on the rotating stalk and all power driven.
M&H has a single deck penetration, with a combined Powder/Shell handling space, that functions as the top of the hoist from the magazine, just below the mount itself. The mount itself rotates on a ring, but the hoist-top and handling space remains stationary. These are manual spaces with a power hoist and powder/shell tray. Basically the powder and shell ride the hoist up to the handling point, then are manually shifted onto a tray that's on the orientation of the gun itself (as the hoist doesn't reorient to the gun like a barbette's rotating structure does).
I agree that M&H is 'unpowered, power ready'. Adding in power equipment adds in electric traverse and elevation, so now the mount can be power driven to track with the fire control. I also treat powered M&H as having power ramming, a powered ram that rotates over and rams the shell and powder off the tray into the gun before the breech is closed manually.
Basically an electrified Mount and Hoist has the powder and shell move up to the handling space via the powered hoist, get manhandled onto the loading tray, power rammed into the breech, breech is closed manually, and traverse and elevation is done electrically.
I'm happy to see a conversation,
unfortunately, I got busy last night, then everything today ran long
and I have an out of town trip Thus,
so I'll chime back in Friday , debate away !
I dunno, I said my bit but will go with whatever the rules are.
I was hoping to encourage folks to share knowledge.
Several bits
A) Guidelines <> Rules
The Ship Design bit by Snip - those are rules.
The Guidelines part... they aren't called rules - just guidelines.
They were meant to be like hints as we added new players who might want to know general limits.
They currently are just based on what I've gleaned, and snip chimed in...but I do not pretend
to get it perfect !
SO they certainly open to being added to or modified based
on better knowledge.
B) Intent
I expect the hoist element has a narrowed armored column connecting down to the armored deck, with a flashproof door connecting to the handling room.
My intent was to provide power assist for elevation and train,
and power ramming. Putting aside 10% actually seems high to me, thought about 5%, but I wanted to clearly pay 'more than enough'.
HMS Hawkins 7.5" were 46ton and took a 10hp motor, which I would be astounded if it weighed 4.6tons.
C) End results
I think the 3-gun +armor is likely pushing 'too far' in terms of rotating weight. On borderline of mistake or not.
Pensacolas triple worked with limitations, but slow traverse is acceptable in long range combat.
The USN went to turrets later and fitted more armor on them.
A redeeming factor is I researched two 3-gun mounts so I could use the 'better' one.
I could see Parthia refitting the ship to field 4 x 2 to 'fix' that problem, or refitting the mounts with only splinter protection.
D) Background babbling
So some expounding from memory and elsewhere ..
Historically, the breakpoint seems
There were some M&H 8" weapons, but reportedly the Japanese
specifically lobbied for this for Heavy cruisers as
the shells would demand power ramming by all nations,
where a smaller gun might be handloadable by bigger Western
sailors but not the typical Japanese.
For example Pensacola's 8" was 118kg and power rammed.
Before that there was a range of the 'upper end of handloading'
often with successor guns - the French went 19cm, 194mm and 194mm.
These large handloaders and shell weights were :
French 194mm 86kg,
UK 7.5", 91kg - this is the Hawkins gun
AH 19cm 97kg,
US 7" 75kg
Italy : AH 19cm / UK 7.5"
Then there was the next step down
Germany : 17cm 64kg
France : 164.7mm 55kg
I'm looking at HMS Hawkin's 7.5/45 mkIV. The brits had mounted the 7.5"91kg I-III on prior classes, and a 7" before that.
The earlier mounts seem without power assist,
I think from Navweaps they started with a simple pedestal mount, and then added power assist and ramming.
At the top it sasy "This gun and its projectiles were rather heavy for use in a simple, open mount and proved somewhat cumbersome in service." while the mount description states "This mounting was essentially a hand-worked center pivot type with additional power training and elevation provided by a 10 HP electric motor and hydraulic pump. Run-out was spring-powered."
What's my point ?
Hmm, I had one, put it down, where is that thing...
Oh yeah - so for decades multiple navies found this shell size as the upper limit for handloading, and despite notes about crews tiring out, they were deemed good enough they seemed to have kept developing new versions and fielding them.
So power assist is nice bonus, but not required for them.
Other Issue : AA and Secondaries.
the 1924 French Cruiser Suffren had 8x 75mm, 8x 37mm, 12x MG for AA.
The proposed armament is quite similar.
Also, the entire approach I have taken in this game is Protection & Guns > Speed.
Look at my steps for torpedo defense -
My larger ships not only have TDSs, but deep ones, with an external bulge for more depth,
and then I still add a couple hundred tons of torpedo nets. All to address that one vulnerability.
However the best torpedo defense is not getting hit - by disrupting and destroying the attackers
so I've shoved a large number of secondary guns on many of my ships.
I fully plan to take the same proactive approach with AA.
All it takes is for someone in the Navy to take the local Billy Mitchell very seriously
and proactively provide a heavy defense o this threat....for a minimal tonnage investment.
The weight is trivial, there's plenty deck space- particularly when I stick the 120mm in casements
but remember the old dreadnaughts with 20-odd 3" guns bolted on for Torpedo boat defense.
Other issue : Turret vs Mount and structural weight :
Admittedly, I didn't design the tech chart in the first place.
I know the turret part of the cruiser rules is a bit of a kludge,
so that there would be an easily enforceable spot.
Functionally, a turret has an amored barbette that extends down
and transfers the load to the keel.
The mount is supported by the deck members, and may need some
additional support, but by it's nature is a much lighter feature
and so the ship isn't built around it in the same way,
My opinion :
Single 166-199mm : Manual traverse ok, ROF slows down in long engagements w/o Power assist
Twin/2G 166-199mm : 10% - or 5%? Power assist needed for full capability.
Triple/3G 166-199mm : Even with power assist, won't traverse fast enough to engage for short range high speed foes.
Though really it should be tied to shell weights and rotating weights, if you put 250mm of armor on a single pedestal mount, it won't turn fast.
Anyhow, if folks have ideas on better expressing this, it could be added to the guidelines.
I would agree with your assessment. Technically the armor is a factor, but the armor is also right on the axis of rotation on a mount like that, and honestly isn't stupid amounts of tonnage, so the armor unless it's obscenely thick shouldn't factor in. I'd say that singles can do just fine, with a slowdown in RoF over an extended engagement, twins need power assist to engage faster maneuvering targets and to keep RoF up, and triples need power assist (or a turret) otherwise they're really no better than twins.
On a side note, this difference between mounts and mount/hoists is why I went with M&H for the twin 30mm AA gun. I wanted an AA gun that could really pump out rates of fire to allow it to supplant machine guns, as machine guns aren't useful against torpedo boats before they launch (but a 30mm gun would be) and we've already seen the trend towards faster aircraft as well as zepplins and large aircraft that might not be threatened by a 'normal' machine gun. The 30mm AA gun in M&H allows for better ammo feed as well as the supporting room (non rotating) below the gun for the gun/magazine crew to speed up feeding of the gun off the deck and out of the weather and light splinters/MG bullets.
AA M vs M&H - Eventually, I will probably have M&H for any larger AA mount than MG,
but it's something I'm working towards.
Functionally there should be a ready use locker. The bigger the round, the lower the number in the locker.
After that, sailors will have to pack it up from below the armor deck.
So right now the 90mm, with their 11kg rounds - mostly M&H.
Conceptually, all the AA ammo is one-piece, and I'd have a flashproof chamber at the top of the armor deck, feeding dredger hoists up to the mount.
I'll probably be fitting light shielding to either splinterproof it (20-35mm)....or just to indicate a sealed system (6mm) to isolate from fire/other.
I'm trying to fit AA in "C" and "W" over the main battery, then at the superstructure 'corners'.
That should give the best all-round base level.
The ship size will govern how many of what.
I kinda want a mix of 57 and 90 right now on those ships worth expending a torpedo on.
The 57 is too big for the role, and I'll downsize to 30-37 eventually, just as the 15 will upgun to 23 (22.5) eventually.
The pre-game vision of mining Port Said with high-speed cruisers, and then mopping up the Byzantine forces in the Red Sea doesn't seem that viable
first with the Treaty of Malta meaning the Byzantines are prepositioned, but also with airpoints able to put dozens torpedo-bearing planes over the sea.
So...back to contesting the SLOC East of Aden.
Torpedoes being the prime threat of course, those calibers are seen as fast enough to engage at distance the lumbering torpedo planes,
but a hard turn to dump speed, followed by unfurling nets is expected to be very effective against aerial torpedo attack...for the bigger ships.
The TDS then handles any that leaks through.
Strafing wise, the 15L70 GAST MGs, which storyline were developed to replace the ancient gardner 15mms mounted for shore/boarding security, are being pressed into service to avoid really close attacks and light bombs. While viewed as nuisance damage, over time they could effect the ships ability to fend off other things and add up, the 15mm are so light, they get studded on.
I'm shifting my aa in a similar fashion. And armored similarly. I'll probably start doing a 20mm other armor to signify the armored gun tub, the shield would only slow down the mount.
I'm figuring a 6mm (1/4") or 8mm (1/3") hardened plate would be proof against Spray, and stray rifle-caliber MG bullets.
QuoteThe pre-game vision of mining Port Said with high-speed cruisers, and then mopping up the Byzantine forces in the Red Sea doesn't seem that viable
first with the Treaty of Malta meaning the Byzantines are prepositioned, but also with airpoints able to put dozens torpedo-bearing planes over the sea.
So...back to contesting the SLOC East of Aden.
For info, in 1922:
4 cruisers
61 TGB, DD, TB & SS
144 MTB
are in Aden Gulf & Red Sea.
I apparently have not paid sufficient attention, as there was at one time more.
....so this means I can make my raid, blockade Port Said and destroy the Byzantines as they try to exit the Canal !!!
...while that is a great number of MTBs and TBs, I've tried hard to build a fleet that can withstand such attacks.
but the Air points would be annoying.
Oh and that entire lack of a Causis Belli problem.
With the consensus that a three-gun mount would probably not have the qualities that the Parthians desire,
I can either :
A) build a mistake and fix it later
B) look at the 2 competing 3-gun designs I made and realize neither quite meets the goal.
While it might be reasonable to make a 'mistake', the reason I pay for competing new complex designs rather than just handwave it as storylne is I want to field things that work. So new concepts (quad turrets, 3 gun M&H, etc) get doubled. I don't want to field an
Invincible with electric turrets that don't actually work and have to be rebuilt - or a pensacola with mounts that rotate fast enough for distance, but not short range.
So I've down gunned the vessel to 8x 180, kept the speed and added armor.
Quote
Royal Nssean X, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1923
Displacement:
8,002 t light; 8,497 t standard; 9,410 t normal; 10,140 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(556.83 ft / 551.18 ft) x 54.95 ft x (22.64 / 23.93 ft)
(169.72 m / 168.00 m) x 16.75 m x (6.90 / 7.29 m)
Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 155 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1923 Model
12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 800 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,436 lbs / 1,105 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 385.83 ft / 117.60 m 11.55 ft / 3.52 m
Ends: 0.98" / 25 mm 165.32 ft / 50.39 m 11.55 ft / 3.52 m
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -15.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.31" / 135 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 4.92" / 125 mm
2nd: 1.38" / 35 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.77" / 45 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.77" / 45 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.92" / 125 mm, Aft 1.77" / 45 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 72,986 shp / 54,447 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 7,955nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,643 tons
Complement:
477 - 621
Cost:
£2.406 million / $9.623 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 601 tons, 6.4 %
- Guns: 601 tons, 6.4 %
Armour: 1,852 tons, 19.7 %
- Belts: 957 tons, 10.2 %
- Armament: 188 tons, 2.0 %
- Armour Deck: 642 tons, 6.8 %
- Conning Towers: 64 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 2,439 tons, 25.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,726 tons, 29.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,408 tons, 15.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 384 tons, 4.1 %
- Hull below water: 40 tons
- Hull void weights: 82 tons
- Hull above water: 33 tons
- On freeboard deck: 119 tons
- Above deck: 110 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,740 lbs / 3,511 Kg = 43.5 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 14.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.480 / 0.490
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.03 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 26.57 ft / 8.10 m, 24.28 ft / 7.40 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 24.28 ft / 7.40 m, 21.65 ft / 6.60 m
- Aft deck: 50.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Quarter deck: 10.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Average freeboard: 17.70 ft / 5.40 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128.0 %
Waterplane Area: 19,828 Square feet or 1,842 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 92 lbs/sq ft or 449 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.86
- Longitudinal: 1.33
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
Having tried two variations of the three-gun mount & hoist, neither are satisfactory.
So the Parthians have reworked with just two-gun 180 M&H with powered assists & ramming to maintain ROF
and training.
1 7
(d) (s)
A (B) [c] [w] (X) (Y)
(e) (s)
2 8
8.1 7.35 6.6 4.1
The reversion to casements is not viewed as a problem, Torpedo attack is difficult in high seas, both because the TBs are slowed, and because the torpedoes tend to breach the wave troughs.
The belt is facehardened 125mm, outsloped 15 degrees
and capped by the armor deck at +1.7m
The belt descends to -1.7m below water, for a total height of 3.4m.
3.4m/cos(15) = 3.519 = 3.52m
The end belt is meant to
The Parthians expect floatplanes to taxi up to the fantail, so aircraft handling facilities are placed on the stern.
50t - Reserve
AD
60t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
25t - Searchlight tower (NF)
OD
18t - 2TT3 21" 3t
2x 25+5 - Fighter Float + Gunpwdr CAT
51t - 10% rotating wt Power Assist for 180L47
HAW
8t - CO2 Compresser A/C
25t - Enhanced Fire Ext.
HBW
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
25t - Extra Pumps.
Decks
+6.6 Forecastle Deck
+4.2 Weather Deck
+1.7 Battery Deck Top belt, Armored Deck
-0.80 Deck
-1.5 Bottom main belt
-3.30
-5.80 Engineering
-6.9 Keel, double bottom
To ask, why would you have your foredeck at 35mm, but your end belts at 25mm? Would seem that they'd at least be the same. 25mm isn't going to stop a whole lot, even in the splinters department, 25-27mm is about what I put on my DDs conning towers and gun mounts to resist shell splinters and some light HE. It can make some sense for a cruiser's end belts, but I question having 25mm sides to the box, and a 35mm lid, seems the fo'cstle would be either 25mm deck, or the end belts 35mm. I understand the QD thickness being 'heavy' compared to the end belts, you're trying to prevent plunging fire at long range from knocking out your shaft runs or rudders.
good point.
I expect I changed one and not the other.
For this game, I drew on some long ago read information that armor on the 5"/38 mount on BBs was thicker than that on cruisers so it would stop all BB shell splinters.
Working from that, and needing a number, I came up with..it's under the gun research, I think it's a 6x factor.
25mm should stop splinters from QF nuisance weapons from DDs... and well anything under 150mm. So a shell may go off above, or just short, or even just in, but won't turn the waterline into a colander.
35mm should stop splinters from weapons up to 210mm - anything non-turreted.
The rest of the deck is thicker primarily so long range Byzantine shots from cruisers/ACs won't penetrate to important areas, or spray splinters there.
I'd rather have 65mm, but weight is tight. 45mm gets me 290mm or less, which covers current and future cruiser weapons.
Early Parthian ships were poorly armored on the QD as shafts are big heavy things fairly immune to splinters, it takes a direct hit.
But the steering issues in wars have caused a reassessment and an uparmor of the QD area.
For the bow I'll likely lower it the deck to 25mm, as I doubt I'll find the weight to up the belt to 35mm.
Hmm, then there's the consideration that most period warships featured a protective deck fore/aft of the citadel.
Edit : for quite sometime to model the protective deck I've made the end belt 3.66m high, indicating a 1 deck level (2.44m) 45deg slope.
aha !
I recall my intent -
the foredeck and QD indeed as protective decks,
the reason the end belt isn't 3.66 is I wanted
a verticle belt there on the waterline, just to proof that vs. the colander effect,
while the deck is conceptually to prevent entry into the hull structure.
|
| _____
| /
|/
QuoteI apparently have not paid sufficient attention, as there was at one time more.
....so this means I can make my raid, blockade Port Said and destroy the Byzantines as they try to exit the Canal !!!
...while that is a great number of MTBs and TBs, I've tried hard to build a fleet that can withstand such attacks.
but the Air points would be annoying.
Oh and that entire lack of a Causis Belli problem.
From 1917 to 1922,
DD, TGB, TB increase to 50%
MTB increase to 28%
Sometimes you find a combination of hull parameters that are just perfect for the design, and you get more out of a ship.
I had a beautiful one, 8x 333L43 on an 19,000 ton hull and 29knots, with a 330mm belt and 100mm deck.
...disturbingly good.
...as in something must be wrong...but what ?
Apparently, modeling the main guns as 'deck mounts' rather than 'turret on barbette' saves a tremendous amount of weight !!
Quote...Apparently, modeling the main guns as 'deck mounts' rather than 'turret on barbette' saves a tremendous amount of weight !!
But give certainly a worst protection for gunners & all mechanical, hydraulic & electric materials.
Without "turret & barbette" this nearly is a barbette ship.
Some poor guy running in a hamster wheel to adjust bearing......
Quote from: TacCovert4 on May 23, 2022, 09:19:54 PM
Some poor guy running in a hamster wheel to adjust bearing......
Actually, I got to thinking, I could allocate weight to 'Trained Elephants' to assist....
Or since I have swaths of Africa, would anyone buy trained mountain gorillas on my gunnery crews ?
On a more serious note, tinkering...
This is a rework of the Artesmia class into something
more like what Tac is talking about.
As a Destroyer Leader type, I can see it working.
I built 3 DDLs earlier, to support my smaller DDs on distant
stations.
The Magazines are protected with a box, and while the machinery
is not, the total length is <hull length, so there's not
boilers above the waterline or the such.
Had I the spare tonnage, I could see something like this.
But I have a pressing need to replace the antiquated
Artesmias and provide a low-end solo mission vessel.
Quote
Khutulun, Parthian Frigate laid down 1923
Displacement:
3,000 t light; 3,154 t standard; 3,439 t normal; 3,668 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(459.32 ft / 452.76 ft) x 44.29 ft x (13.22 / 13.85 ft)
(140.00 m / 138.00 m) x 13.50 m x (4.03 / 4.22 m)
Armament:
10 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, forward deck aft
1 double raised mount
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 5.71lbs / 2.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 raised mounts
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 753 lbs / 342 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.38" / 35 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
4th: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Box over magazines:
1.38" / 35 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.38" / 35 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 41,878 shp / 31,241 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 4,480nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 514 tons
Complement:
223 - 291
Cost:
£1.091 million / $4.363 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 227 tons, 6.6 %
- Guns: 227 tons, 6.6 %
Armour: 84 tons, 2.4 %
- Armament: 47 tons, 1.4 %
- Armour Deck: 30 tons, 0.9 %
- Conning Tower: 7 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,354 tons, 39.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,157 tons, 33.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 440 tons, 12.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 177 tons, 5.1 %
- Hull below water: 10 tons
- Hull void weights: 25 tons
- Hull above water: 13 tons
- On freeboard deck: 61 tons
- Above deck: 68 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,588 lbs / 720 Kg = 23.7 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 13.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.454 / 0.462
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.22 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.28 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 23.62 ft / 7.20 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Forward deck: 29.00 %, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 19.03 ft / 5.80 m
- Aft deck: 36.00 %, 10.83 ft / 3.30 m, 10.83 ft / 3.30 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 10.83 ft / 3.30 m, 10.83 ft / 3.30 m
- Average freeboard: 15.82 ft / 4.82 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 150.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 164.4 %
Waterplane Area: 12,833 Square feet or 1,192 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 61 lbs/sq ft or 297 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.71
- Longitudinal: 1.17
- Overall: 0.75
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Resv : 25
AD
23t FC
25t LR Radio
10t Squadron Plot Room
10t Night Fighting gear
OD
20+5 : Scout Floatplane + Gunpowder Cat
36t 4TT3 21"
HAW
3t - CO2 Compressor AC
10t - Additional fire ext
HBW
10t - additional pumps
I think the Poles used a trained bear to carry around artillery shells, so it is doable...
Still looking at the 3000 ton category.
The previously posted Artesmia is still my lead candidate for replacing the sailing frigates of the same name.
Long range, excellent speed, heavy QF battery. They can either serve in rear areas doing commerce raiding/protection, or
be brought in to serve as fleet screening and scouting units.
This is a look at a slower, but more robust ship.
I was really hoping for a better speed out of it, but this matches or exceeds existing cruisers.
It won't be faster than the next generation- but it should be years before those exist in large quantities.
One advantage of less speed is less length, so it can fit in smaller docks.
The Parthian 165mm basically is a 1 hit kill for any DD, and is effective against most cruisers out there...
though outgunned by Byzantines cruisers.
The 2 guns forward can't make an effective spotting ladder, but it can on the broadside.
The single mount & hoist should have traverse rates sufficient for screening.
For some reason I reverted to bow underwater torpedo tubes.
I had some theory on that, which I do not recall.
Quote
Porpoise II, Parthian Frigate laid down 1923
Displacement:
3,000 t light; 3,151 t standard; 3,691 t normal; 4,123 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(392.61 ft / 383.86 ft) x 42.65 ft x (16.40 / 17.82 ft)
(119.67 m / 117.00 m) x 13.00 m x (5.00 / 5.43 m)
Armament:
4 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 180 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides forward
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
4 x 2 row quad mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 628 lbs / 285 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 287.89 ft / 87.75 m 12.01 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 115 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined 45.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.38" / 35 mm 1.18" / 30 mm 1.18" / 30 mm
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.18" / 30 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 0.98" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.18" / 30 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 32,109 shp / 23,953 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,400nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 973 tons
Complement:
236 - 307
Cost:
£0.905 million / $3.619 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 157 tons, 4.3 %
- Guns: 157 tons, 4.3 %
Armour: 553 tons, 15.0 %
- Belts: 274 tons, 7.4 %
- Armament: 41 tons, 1.1 %
- Armour Deck: 232 tons, 6.3 %
- Conning Tower: 6 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,073 tons, 29.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,007 tons, 27.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 691 tons, 18.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 209 tons, 5.7 %
- Hull below water: 48 tons
- Hull void weights: 25 tons
- Hull above water: 15 tons
- On freeboard deck: 28 tons
- Above deck: 93 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2,750 lbs / 1,247 Kg = 20.1 x 6.5 " / 165 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 13.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.23
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.481 / 0.495
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.59 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 22.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 15.00 %, 21.65 ft / 6.60 m, 19.52 ft / 5.95 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 19.52 ft / 5.95 m, 17.06 ft / 5.20 m
- Aft deck: 55.00 %, 17.06 ft / 5.20 m, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
- Quarter deck: 10.00 %, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
- Average freeboard: 16.57 ft / 5.05 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 111.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.1 %
Waterplane Area: 10,724 Square feet or 996 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 56 lbs/sq ft or 272 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.67
- Longitudinal: 2.00
- Overall: 0.75
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
Intended to replace the aged Dolphin gunboats, the Porpoise was given speed sufficient to work around the battleline.
As a gunboat, it can operate in fairly shallow water,
and act as a patrol vessel.
An alternate version mounting twin 130mm in 'A'& 'X'and a 'B' Howitzer, for enhanced shore bombardment has been considered.
As a Close Escort it would serve as an intermediate screen against MTBs and DDs, while also being equipped to detect and prosecute ASW attacks.
Against attacking destroyers, the powerful 165mm battery is expected to wreck havok. While the light armor is expected to preserve the firepower and floatation of the vessel.
Any offensive role would be at night, possibly as a follow up to an earlier attack. The Hulesmeyer device has not prooved an effective early warning system, but is viewed as promising for night time formation steaming.
1 3
A (B) (X) Y
2 4
Trying to avoid a 'break' in the hull, with the associated structural costs, the weather deck slopes between fore and stern, loosing 1 m over ~38m, for a 3% slope - barely noticable. The battery deck below is the Protected deck, and strength deck.
With hull space <130%, a Protective deck is fitted
The armor is meant to defeat QF weapons as might be found on destroyers or smaller cruisers outside the Rea Sea.
A reversion to underwater torpedo tubes sees 2 fitted in the bow, using submarine technology. These are foreward of the main bulkhead, and are proctected by the forward armored deck.
Misc Wt
25t- Reserve
AD
16t - FC
25t - Night Fighting
25t - LR Radio
25t - Hulesmeyer
OD
3t : Air conditioning
5t : Paravanes
10t : Depth charges
10t : Squadron Plot Room
HAW
15t : Extra Fire Fighting
HBW
30t : 2x Enhanced Hydrophone station
18t : 2 UTT 21" Bow, 6 torps
Decks :
4.2m-5.2m : Weather Deck
1.8m : Protective Deck
-0.7 m : bottom protective deck
-4.30m : Engineering deck
-5.30 m : Keel, double bottom
So this won't get built.
At 15,700 it's only 2800 tons under a Zemaka, but is far less powerful.
What it was intended to explore is something that
could field the 230L44 gun, with an eye to something
that could reliably engage and sink Jefgte's 191mm cruisers.
Basic Armored cruiser role at minimal cost.
I also wanted a TDS - this has a decent armored bulkhead and depth,
but on a smaller ship, it doesn't give much in torpedo absorption.
It looks like +0.8 torpedoes - but it should protect against criticals.
The trade off there is narrower internal beam forces a longer belt.
I should try a version with no TDS.
Edit : Tried that, allows a 32kt ship and outsloping the belt.
Anyhow, when considering the vessels already out there,
it is still very expensive as a cruiser hunter, but can't tackle the
old armored cruisers reliably, which the
Zemaka class can.
Quote
Alan, Parthia Armored Cruiser laid down 1923
Displacement:
15,700 t light; 16,617 t standard; 18,277 t normal; 19,605 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(589.65 ft / 582.35 ft) x 72.18 ft (Bulges 75.46 ft) x (27.89 / 29.51 ft)
(179.72 m / 177.50 m) x 22.00 m (Bulges 23.00 m) x (8.50 / 9.00 m)
Armament:
8 - 9.06" / 230 mm 44.0 cal guns - 392.42lbs / 178.00kg shells, 180 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1913 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, forward deck aft
4 raised mounts
12 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1911 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 350 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1919 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 150 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4,640 lbs / 2,105 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 465.88 ft / 142.00 m 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
Ends: 0.98" / 25 mm 116.44 ft / 35.49 m 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
0.98" / 25 mm 465.88 ft / 142.00 m 29.95 ft / 9.13 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 55.77 ft / 17.00 m
- Hull Bulges:
0.51" / 13 mm 465.88 ft / 142.00 m 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 5.91" / 150 mm
2nd: 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.77" / 45 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.77" / 45 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.91" / 150 mm, Aft 1.38" / 35 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 113,863 shp / 84,942 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 9,860nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,989 tons
Complement:
785 - 1,021
Cost:
£4.399 million / $17.598 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,258 tons, 6.9 %
- Guns: 1,258 tons, 6.9 %
Armour: 4,084 tons, 22.3 %
- Belts: 1,435 tons, 7.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 508 tons, 2.8 %
- Bulges: 188 tons, 1.0 %
- Armament: 911 tons, 5.0 %
- Armour Deck: 933 tons, 5.1 %
- Conning Towers: 109 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 3,806 tons, 20.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,853 tons, 32.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,577 tons, 14.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 699 tons, 3.8 %
- Hull below water: 239 tons
- Bulge void weights: 150 tons
- Hull above water: 41 tons
- On freeboard deck: 68 tons
- Above deck: 201 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
21,240 lbs / 9,634 Kg = 57.2 x 9.1 " / 230 mm shells or 3.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.522 / 0.529
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.72 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.13 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 15.00 %, 27.23 ft / 8.30 m, 24.77 ft / 7.55 m
- Forward deck: 50.00 %, 24.77 ft / 7.55 m, 22.31 ft / 6.80 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 22.31 ft / 6.80 m, 22.31 ft / 6.80 m
- Quarter deck: 5.00 %, 22.31 ft / 6.80 m, 23.29 ft / 7.10 m
- Average freeboard: 23.47 ft / 7.15 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 119.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 160.0 %
Waterplane Area: 28,578 Square feet or 2,655 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 139 lbs/sq ft or 678 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.89
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
With the size and main battery of armored cruisers ballooning so that they can engage old predreads, there is no room in the budget for so many ships of that size.
There remains a need for a ship capable of long range independent work, and brushing aside conventional cruisers. That ship does not need to be 26000 tons and sporting 8x 345mm.
This ship is designed to bring the size back down to the mission goals.
The Secondary is the heavy 130mm gun, with the side mounts
arranged with the inner pair superfiring over the wider spaced end pair.
1 (3) (5) 7
(b) (c)
A (B) [a] [d] (X) Y
The 90mm is mounted for all-around fire,
with mounts above the main battery and also superfiring over the 1 and 7 mounts.
Miscellaneous Weight :
Void :
150t : Construction Reserve
AD:
126t : fire control
25t : LR radio
25t : Night figthing gear
25t : Hulesmeyer
OD :
18t : 2TT3 21"
50t : 2x Scout Floatplanes and 1 x Gunpowder Cat
AW :
16t : CO2 Compressor AC
25t : Additional Fire Suppresion
BW :
178t : Torpedo Nets.
25t : additional pumps
36t : Torpedo reloads
Decks :
6.8 Weather Deck
4.3 Battery Deck
1.8 Armor Deck - 45mm, top of TDS
-0.7 2nd Deck
-2.0 Bottom main belt
-3.2 1st Deck
-6.9 Engineering
-7.63 Double Bottom
Quote...What it was intended to explore is something that
could field the 230L44 gun, with an eye to something
that could reliably engage and sink Jefgte's 191mm cruisers...
Cool, a 15700t Parthian cruiser can sink 6000t Byzantine cruiser.
Compare rather with a 12520t or 15800t Byzantine.
;)
To be pretty sure of winning the superiority must be 30-50%.
Limit yourself to 9000t (vs 6000t).
What could you do with 9000t ?
That is pretty much the problem for the 15,700ts.
Far to expensive for what it can do.
I'd much rather spend 2800 more and field
a Zemaka which can fight anything other than a capital ship.
As for the 9000t - that's what my couple of 8000t & 180mm designs
are for.
Much more efficient use of tonnage.
That is one very expensive cruiser. The Japanese Myokos have similar firepower and speed on 6000t less.
Quote from: Desertfox on May 30, 2022, 09:33:19 PM
That is one very expensive cruiser. The Japanese Myokos have similar firepower and speed on 6000t less.
That's why I concluded that it wouldn't get built.
That particular package of requirements wound up with a ship that was too expensive for one
mission, and not sufficient for another.
Figured I'd share a 'failure'.
I've been tinkering with tenders.
"Sea Frog" or Deniz
Light Tender Design.
2.48 + 9 = 11.5 months to build.
0.31 / HY cost.
Keeping the cost low is part of the design goal.
The Parthians have a number of large support vessels, allowing them to support the majority
of their fleet far far from home.
To support their desire to be able to sustain localized coastal forces they have
been considering light tenders with a shallow draft.
That way they can rebase about their shallow littoral waters and river areas, and support
forces away from the major harbors.
The tenders would need resupply, but trucks -> lighters->tender can provide that,
or coastal vessels can bring it.
The largest vessels expected to need such support would be the 750ton Subs or Torpedo boats, or a squadron of MTBs.
8 x 750 tons = 6000 tons
This would also support a swarm of MTBs, or subs, or a pair of frigates or even most Parthian cruisers.
The stern is sloped to be slightly awash, to allow aircraft or MTBs to be winched on board. A roller path and winch allows them to be brought into the hanger / maintenance bay area.
A lightly built hanger structure fills the aft deck, arched for lighter construction, and so wind
will not push the vessel sideways.
The hanger is 5m tall, spanning from 1.4m to 6.4m.
Armanent : 2624 * 0.02 = 52.48 vs. 45 carried.
Casements on the ships side at weather deck level preserve the interior space.
batteries of 4 light guns bear on either beam, with the hopes of defense against
a maurading solo gunboat or coastal DD.
A pair of 57mm AA is mounted on each side, again aimed at warding off light air attack.
GAST 15mm are mounted for both strafing defense and boarders.
The ultimate defense is few vessels have a 3m draft, and the tender will scuttle somewhere else.
Deniz Ghoorbagheh, Parthian Light Tender laid down 1922
Displacement:
2,480 t light; 2,559 t standard; 2,624 t normal; 2,676 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(260.00 ft / 255.91 ft) x 57.41 ft x (9.84 / 10.01 ft)
(79.25 m / 78.00 m) x 17.50 m x (3.00 / 3.05 m)
Armament:
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1911 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1918 Model
4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 221 lbs / 100 kg
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 1,327 shp / 990 Kw = 12.00 kts
Range 3,172nm at 8.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 117 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
183 - 238
Cost:
£0.288 million / $1.151 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 45 tons, 1.7 %
- Guns: 45 tons, 1.7 %
Machinery: 46 tons, 1.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 868 tons, 33.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 144 tons, 5.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,521 tons, 58.0 %
- Hull below water: 515 tons
- Hull void weights: 20 tons
- Hull above water: 688 tons
- On freeboard deck: 230 tons
- Above deck: 68 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,239 lbs / 3,737 Kg = 370.4 x 3.5 " / 90 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.53
Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 11.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.05
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak, low quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.635 / 0.637
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.46 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 37 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 17.72 ft / 5.40 m, 15.26 ft / 4.65 m
- Forward deck: 35.00 %, 15.26 ft / 4.65 m, 12.80 ft / 3.90 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarter deck: 10.00 %, 4.59 ft / 1.40 m, -1.08 ft / -0.33 m
- Average freeboard: 15.68 ft / 4.78 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 61.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 202.3 %
Waterplane Area: 11,101 Square feet or 1,031 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 152 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 61 lbs/sq ft or 300 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.89
- Longitudinal: 2.89
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
Miscellaneous Weight
Reserve : 20t
AD
5t FC : The vessel needs to be able to ward off a enemy patrol craft, sub or aircraft.
23t : A 30m high cage mast is the lightest spotting top, and gives best sight lines. Tonnage from USS Texas. Also Air Control platform.
25t : LR Radio - Communciations for the lighter vessels
10t : Dedicated SR radio band for Aircraft.
OD :
20t - Plot Room
80t - 4x Scout Floatplanes.
10t - 2x Gunpowder CAT (each beam)
120t - Aft Hanger / On-deck space to work MTBs under cover.
Conceptually, this is, shown by the raised aft deck, while the stern dives down to form the ramp.
HAW :
3t - Compressor CO2 A/C
40t - Additional Berthing
20t - Surgical Wardroom
25t - Additional fire Suppression
600t - Fleet Support
HBW:
240t : Torpedo/ Mine / Depth Charge storage
60t : Ammunition Storage
200t : Fuel Storage Tanks, double wall
15t : Enhanced Hydrophone station.
Decks :
3.9m Weather Deck
1.4m Strength deck, hanger deck
-2.4m Engineering, stores
-2.9m 0.5m double bottom.
With the high fuel consumption of smaller ships doing combat ops, I think you should shift more tonnage to fuel. I'd say that of your 800t of supply spaces, I'd go with 500t fuel and 300t supplies.
On the one hand correct on the other...a conceptual problem.
Conceptually... Snip wanted to make it simple and have players only
be required to engage on core naval warfare aspects.
So he didn't want mercantile ships at all - any resupply vessels, transports....tankers
were to be handwaved.
I really thought specific tenders were needed to answer questions about being
able to project force.
So we wound up with an Auxiliary rule focused , and the handwaving of most non-tenders.
End result : I could very reasonably get by with just the Fleet Supply Tonnage.
I think I should have enough there to 'restock'. Hence the tonnage for reloads.
BUT...its not a tanker, the fuel is there to 'top off' whatever is there with non-bunker fuel.
The main fuel source is supposed to be handwaved. There's a fuel barge...or something.
200 tons, is 448000 lbs of fuel, or 74,666 gallons. The fall down for the skin of a 5000 gal tank isn't very large, I figured it out and forgot. Like 10% of weight.
So call it 180 tons / 65,000 gallons.
Just enough to 'top off' a sub/DD, or fill a MTB swarm.
What would be a reasonable number?
Pretty high.
My 1899 steam torpedo boats had 4 tons of fuel.
My Javelin early DDs/ Torpedo boats have 61 tons of fuel.
My Seahawk 750t DDs had 145 tons
so x 8 would be 1160... that's alot.
What if we did have tankers ?
Personally, I am severely tempted to make aux 'tankers' by having very large fuel tanks instead of misc weight.
The only place it would come into play is if I wanted fast tankers.
We could make a rule !
The problem is...no one will want to track fuel consumption of their vessels.
So it will be an eyeball of tanker capacity.
Or...handwaving.
Then tack on that when considering the starting IC/BP point,
only warship construction was really forecast- Land/DP/Air/Fort units
and widespread aux construction wasn't really envisioned.
Adding another " you need" aux category then saps from the budgets.
Yeah. I vote against an additional rule. I was mostly thinking that 200t doesn't sustain mtbs for very long independent of other supplies, and 600t keeps them sustained a long time in food and torpedoes.
It's a good question to ponder overall.
Right now, the core is the 600 tons fleet support.
The 'Fluff' becomes the
240 tons torp/mine/dc storage and 60 tons ammo mag
and 200 tons fuel tanks.
I could dump those and either add 500tons fleet support
and just point to then 1100 tons as
or make it 500 tons fuel.
I dunno,
Seems "better" to me to have the top-off tonnage
even if I don't *have* to have it.
So I pushed the tonnage up to 2800,
which works out nicely to 0.35/HY for 2 HY.
Doubled the fuel allocation to 400 tons.
Still not 600, but a great deal closer.
That still is nowhere enough to refuel a destroyer flotilla,
that's what the hand-waved fuel barge is for....
But from a storyline concept, it does 'feel' better.
Quote
Deniz Ghoorbagheh, Parthian Light Tender laid down 1922
Displacement:
2,800 t light; 2,886 t standard; 2,962 t normal; 3,023 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(260.00 ft / 255.91 ft) x 63.98 ft x (9.84 / 10.01 ft)
(79.25 m / 78.00 m) x 19.50 m x (3.00 / 3.05 m)
Armament:
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1911 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1,500 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1918 Model
4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 221 lbs / 100 kg
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 1,466 shp / 1,093 Kw = 12.00 kts
Range 3,400nm at 8.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 136 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
199 - 260
Cost:
£0.320 million / $1.281 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 45 tons, 1.5 %
- Guns: 45 tons, 1.5 %
Machinery: 51 tons, 1.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 984 tons, 33.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 162 tons, 5.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,721 tons, 58.1 %
- Hull below water: 715 tons
- Hull void weights: 20 tons
- Hull above water: 688 tons
- On freeboard deck: 230 tons
- Above deck: 68 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,627 lbs / 4,367 Kg = 432.8 x 3.5 " / 90 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.72
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 10.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak, low quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.643 / 0.645
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 38 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 17.72 ft / 5.40 m, 15.26 ft / 4.65 m
- Forward deck: 35.00 %, 15.26 ft / 4.65 m, 12.80 ft / 3.90 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarter deck: 10.00 %, 4.59 ft / 1.40 m, -1.08 ft / -0.33 m
- Average freeboard: 15.68 ft / 4.78 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 62.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 208.9 %
Waterplane Area: 12,465 Square feet or 1,158 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 153 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 64 lbs/sq ft or 314 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.88
- Longitudinal: 2.89
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
"Sea Frog" or Deniz
Light Tender Design.
2.8 + 9 = 11.8 months to build.
0.35 / HY cost.
The Parthians have a number of large support vessels, allowing them to support the majority
of their fleet far far from home.
To support their desire to be able to sustain localized coastal forces they have
been considering light tenders with a shallow draft.
The tenders would need resupply, but trucks -> lighters->tender can provide that,
or coastal vessels can bring it.
The largest vessels expected to need such support would be the 750ton Subs or Torpedo boats, or a squadron of MTBs.
8 x 750 tons = 6000 tons
This would also support a swarm of MTBs, or subs, or a pair of frigates or even most Parthian cruisers.
The stern is sloped to be slightly awash, to allow aircraft or MTBs to be winched on board. A roller path and winch allows them to be brought into the hanger / maintenance bay area.
A lightly built hanger structure fills the aft deck, arched for lighter construction, and so wind
will not push the vessel sideways.
The hanger is 5m tall, spanning from 1.4m to 6.4m.
Armanent : 2624 * 0.02 = 52.48 vs. 45 carried.
Casements on the ships side at weather deck level preserve the interior space.
batteries of 4 light guns bear on either beam, with the hopes of defense against
a maurading solo gunboat or coastal DD.
A pair of 57mm AA is mounted on each side, again aimed at warding off light air attack.
GAST 15mm are mounted for both strafing defense and boarders.
The ultimate defense is few vessels have a 3m draft, and the tender will scuttle somewhere else.
Miscellaneous Weight
Reserve : 20t
AD
5t FC : The vessel needs to be able to ward off a enemy patrol craft, sub or aircraft.
23t : A 30m high cage mast is the lightest spotting top, and gives best sight lines. Tonnage from USS Texas. Also Air Control platform.
25t : LR Radio - Communciations for the lighter vessels
10t : Dedicated SR radio band for Aircraft.
OD :
20t - Plot Room
80t - 4x Scout Floatplanes.
10t - 2x Gunpowder CAT (each beam)
120t - Aft Hanger / On-deck space to work MTBs under cover.
Conceptually, this is, shown by the raised aft deck, while the stern dives down to form the ramp.
HAW :
3t - Compressor CO2 A/C
40t - Additional Berthing
20t - Surgical Wardroom
25t - Additional fire Suppression
600t - Fleet Support
HBW:
240t : Torpedo/ Mine / Depth Charge storage
60t : Ammunition Storage
400t : Fuel Storage Tanks, double wall
15t : Enhanced Hydrophone station.
Decks :
3.9m Weather Deck
1.4m Strength deck, hanger deck
-2.4m Engineering, stores
-2.9m 0.5m double bottom.
yet another tender.
Question for the peanut gallery - I'm providing for ASW mines on harbor netting.
It was done historically, and was far more useful than pure nets.
But at what point does one cross into 'weapon' category there - they could hurt a sub
So I'm really not sure that's a valid Aux role, but it is so far from an offensive weapon that I am unsure
where to draw that line. So I'm flipping back on forth on if I should or should not include the little mines.
Without them...I'd have 1% more netting. So not a dealbreaker.
The Parthians have not built out the harbor defenses in territorial areas,
first focusing on basic maintenance infrastructure, so a wounded ship does not have to sail 8000nm to get repaired.
Further, they hope to use their fleet train to set up in non-developed
bays and anchorages for temporary bases.
A net-tending vessel - primarily to provide portable ASW/anti-torpedo netting for anchorages, but also equipped for a small floatplane group to provide local reconnaisance.
The stern ramps down, intended to allow floatplanes to advance onto a wire mesh mat and then be winched up the fantail.
The gunpowder catapults fire directly over the bow.
The vessel also carries only small group of on-board planes.
These are both an experiment, and to try to keep enemy reconnaisance at bay
Anchorage Torpedo nets are carried, these are double weight Bullivant nets, 50kg per square meters. Small 50kg electro-contact mines are studded into each 10x10m section, or +1kt/sq. meter. These are remotely armed and disarmed via electrical pulses.
Each 10m x 10m section is 5050kg = 11,110lbs = 4.96 naval tons.
To carry that the float must displace as much or more in seawater volume.
1 cu meter of seawater weighs 1,024 kg....so 5 cu meters would > the net
110m...which.....ah lets call the floats 0.6tons, so it's 10m for 5.6tons.
For this case, they want to be able to deploy them in panels either
20m deep.
So 3.0km is 300 x 20m sections or 3360t
Overall, this allows 2.0km of netting, which should mean the vessel can secure and anchorage and landing area. If kept to the shallows the netting should extend to the bottom. Otherwise they can be placed close to ships so that there is no room for a sub to sneak under, rise and fire.
A pair of 100t launches are carried to serve as nettenders.
Deniz - Sea
Saraydar - Custodian
3 HY to build, aux so 1/4 price, so want tonnage in multiples of 12.
6.6 / 12 = 0.55/HY.
Deniz Saraydar, Parthia Harbormaster NetTender laid down 1922
Displacement:
6,599 t light; 6,838 t standard; 7,558 t normal; 8,134 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(334.45 ft / 328.08 ft) x 72.18 ft x (16.40 / 17.48 ft)
(101.94 m / 100.00 m) x 22.00 m x (5.00 / 5.33 m)
Armament:
8 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1922 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in any sea
6 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1922 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1922 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 763 lbs / 346 kg
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 3 shafts, 6,865 shp / 5,121 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 8,800nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,296 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
404 - 526
Cost:
£0.830 million / $3.321 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 146 tons, 1.9 %
- Guns: 146 tons, 1.9 %
Machinery: 238 tons, 3.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,627 tons, 21.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 959 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 4,589 tons, 60.7 %
- Hull below water: 3,475 tons
- Hull void weights: 60 tons
- Hull above water: 380 tons
- On freeboard deck: 580 tons
- Above deck: 94 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,025 lbs / 6,815 Kg = 224.1 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 2.46
Metacentric height 12.0 ft / 3.7 m
Roll period: 8.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.63
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a round stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.681 / 0.688
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.55 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.11 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 31
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 17.49 ft / 5.33 m, 14.30 ft / 4.36 m
- Forward deck: 25.00 %, 14.30 ft / 4.36 m, 11.12 ft / 3.39 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 11.12 ft / 3.39 m, 11.12 ft / 3.39 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 11.12 ft / 3.39 m, 11.12 ft / 3.39 m
- Average freeboard: 12.41 ft / 3.78 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 72.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103.7 %
Waterplane Area: 18,660 Square feet or 1,734 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 139 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 74 lbs/sq ft or 362 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.50
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Armanent is casement mounted 130mm for surface raiders, expected to be fast and high speed, and a heavy suite of AA to fend off enemy air.
"Armanent": 2% of Normal = 7558 * 0.02 = 151.16
Guns : 146
ok !
Miscellaneous Wieght :
60t reserve
AD:
11t Fire Control 1918
25t LR Fire Control
10t SR Radio - Dedicated Flight Command
25t Hulesmeyer
23t Cage Mast for Air Traffic Control
OD:
120 : 6x 20 Scout Float Plane
10t : 2x waist gun powder cats .
25 : Harbor Command Plotting room....
400 : 2x100t "Nettender" tug
25t : Additional Firefighting gear
HAW
25t Compressor CO2 AC
25t Minesweeping gear
15t CO2 Compressor AC
25t Additional Fire Suppression
200t : Additional Berthing
100t : Hospital Ward
HBW
3360t - Bueliviant Torpedo netting + ASW mines and floats. 3000m x 20m
60 : Additional stores & avgas for floatplanes
25t : Additional pumps
30t : 2x Enhanced Hydrophone stations
I'm going to say that a net with mines is purely defensive and therefore wouldn't qualify as a weapon. It's a reactive protection system, it cannot be used offensively.
*USS Enterprise encounters The Parthian Web.*
But yeah, it's probably fine for me.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on June 19, 2022, 11:24:21 AM
*USS Enterprise encounters The Parthian Web.*
But yeah, it's probably fine for me.
ROFL
8p
A lovely downpour argued for an afternoon retreat to the B&B,
which gave me time to work on both 1923.5 and a long long overdue tentative build plan for the next couple turns,
Hopefully that will mean I stop laying down more ships than I can actually afford to build.
...probably not.
One standout need was the reconstruction of the Rohk class. They are in my catalog,
Twenty years old, they could be scrapped, or kept as second class battleships....or very slow armored cruisers.
Either way they would tag along with heavier units, or serve in rear areas of lower threat.
For the BP cost, it's less than a new light cruiser, but yields a more capable unit.
Here is the cost breakdown followed by the rebuilt vessel:
1923 Rohk Reconstruction : Resembling the OTL Hapsburg class, the Rohks are predreads but are the size of armored cruisers.
The reconstructed Rohks are expected to operate as 2nd rate battleships- able to defeat any non-dreadnaught. Against dreadnaughts, the Parthians would prefer night battle to restrict range to where they were efficacious.
The choice of 24 knots gives a slight margin over older Byzantine capital ships, and matches the older IJN vessels, but ultimately they are expected to bolster 20-knot dreadnaughts on distant stations.
The 1912 300L41.5 was developed to rearm the Tortoise and Rohk classes.
While similar performance to their existing gun, the belt penetration is slightly better, and the deck penetration improved, and it simplifies supply arrangements to have both classes fire the same.
More importantly it moves from an 1895 tech to a 1910 tech, which has vast improvements in propellant, breeches, gearing, hoists, flashtightness...etc.
The 180L47s are expected to provide the spotting "ladders" for the guns to fire at.
Bulges are added for a tiny bit of standoff distance for torpedoes and mines, and then additional deck armor layered on.
Technically, 45mm MORE deck armor could get layered on, but that seems... excessive for the design purpose.
Cost :
base : 0.2 *14.5 = 2.9
Armament & Machinery :BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost = twice the BP cost.
1121 +1531 = 2652
Armor & Functional Misc Wt. : BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost is equal to BP cost.
286+1170+836 : 2292
Hull Fittings and Equipment :No BP cost; $ cost is equal to (tonnage/5000)
1162
Fuel, Ammunition & Stores : No BP cost; $ cost is (tonnage/2000).
1921+610+150
subtotals :
$2.9
2.652bp , $5.304
2.292bp, $2.292
$0.2324
$1.345
Total : 4.944 BP, $12.0734
Details :
Old Engine : 3247
Old Bunker : 1921
Old Main Mag : 202
Replace 305L40 with 300L41.5 395kg , 180L45 with 180L47, 60 with 57, add 15mm
Weapons : 1121
Armor : 201+74+7+4 : 286
Mag : 610 (new main 201)
old hull : 4509
Add 1m hull bulges (13mm skin), cleaver bow : 140t armor
New hull : 5671 (+1162)
New 1923 Turboelectric Engines : 1531
New Bunkers (oil) : 1921
(TurboGenerators : 371t)
Delete underwater torpedo tubes
old Armor Deck : 1224
Armor : Laminate armor onto existing decks (80% eff)
Forward deck : +20mm (+16mm)
Upper AD : +20mm (+16mm)
Main AD : +50mm (+40mm)
Stern Deck : +50mm (+40mm)
New Armor Deck : 2394
Difference : 1170t
Total Vertical : (55+40)+(25+16)/2= 115.5
Waterline Citadel : 320 + ((55+40)*1.5)/2) = 391.25
Misc Weight: 936 total, 786 functional, 150t non-functional
Reserve :150
AD:
113t : Fire Control
30t : Searchlights (NF)
25t : Hulesmeyer
25t : LR Radio
OD:
5t : Paravanes
HAW:
17t : CO2 Air Compressor AC
25t : Extra Fire Extinguishers
HBW:
10t : Batteries
30t : 2 Enhanced Hydrophone Stations
25t : Additional Pumps
148t : Torpedo Nets
383t : Turboelectric Generator
Quote
Rohk, Parthia battleship laid down 1900 (Engine 1923)
Displacement:
15,867 t light; 16,835 t standard; 17,902 t normal; 18,756 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(492.13 ft / 485.56 ft) x 76.28 ft (Bulges 82.84 ft) x (26.90 / 28.03 ft)
(150.00 m / 148.00 m) x 23.25 m (Bulges 25.25 m) x (8.20 / 8.54 m)
Armament:
4 - 11.81" / 300 mm 41.5 cal guns - 870.83lbs / 395.00kg shells, 104 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1912 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
20 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 198.42lbs / 90.00kg shells, 168 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1921 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
6 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
8 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1919 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1918 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 7,559 lbs / 3,429 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 315.03 ft / 96.02 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Ends: 2.56" / 65 mm 170.51 ft / 51.97 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Upper: 6.50" / 165 mm 242.78 ft / 74.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Hull Bulges:
0.51" / 13 mm 321.59 ft / 98.02 m 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.8" / 325 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 11.8" / 300 mm
2nd: 6.50" / 165 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 5.91" / 150 mm
Forecastle: 1.77" / 45 mm Quarter deck: 2.95" / 75 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 12.60" / 320 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 45,817 shp / 34,180 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 6,156nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,921 tons
Complement:
773 - 1,005
Cost:
£1.233 million / $4.934 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,121 tons, 6.3 %
- Guns: 1,121 tons, 6.3 %
Armour: 6,584 tons, 36.8 %
- Belts: 2,751 tons, 15.4 %
- Bulges: 140 tons, 0.8 %
- Armament: 1,113 tons, 6.2 %
- Armour Deck: 2,394 tons, 13.4 %
- Conning Tower: 186 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,531 tons, 8.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,645 tons, 31.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,035 tons, 11.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 986 tons, 5.5 %
- Hull below water: 596 tons
- Bulge void weights: 150 tons
- Hull above water: 42 tons
- On freeboard deck: 5 tons
- Above deck: 193 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
33,370 lbs / 15,136 Kg = 40.5 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 4.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.39
Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 14.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low forecastle, low quarterdeck ,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.579 / 0.582
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.86 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.04 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 25.00 %, 11.29 ft / 3.44 m, 11.29 ft / 3.44 m
- Forward deck: 25.00 %, 19.49 ft / 5.94 m, 19.49 ft / 5.94 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 19.49 ft / 5.94 m, 19.49 ft / 5.94 m
- Quarter deck: 25.00 %, 11.29 ft / 3.44 m, 11.29 ft / 3.44 m
- Average freeboard: 15.39 ft / 4.69 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 57.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127.6 %
Waterplane Area: 26,562 Square feet or 2,468 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 160 lbs/sq ft or 781 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.08
- Longitudinal: 2.08
- Overall: 1.15
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
As pre-dreadnoughts go, she'd be pretty kick-ass.
I agree. And there are enough big cruisers running around that an updated Pre-dread still has utility. But in what is now basically the mid-20s....Predreads are starting to get pretty long in the tooth. Absolutely even upgraded, she's not going to survive an engagement with a dreadnought just one generation newer.....that's also been updated. Against anything constructed in the last 5 years, it's more an execution than a fight.
...24 kts will allow them to navigate close to large BBs (20kts) and provide protection against cruisers and destroyers.
Yes, if these find themselves up against a modern dreadnaught alone, things have not gone to plan :)
Far more as Jefgte says.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on July 06, 2022, 01:18:04 PM
Yes, if these find themselves up against a modern dreadnaught alone, things have not gone to plan :)
Far more as Jefgte says.
Well, not
your plan, at least.
Oh quite. It's basically a transition from Battleship to Coast Defense Ship. Just a 'fast' CDS by CDS Standards. Good for defending an estuary or other colonial area against cruiser raids, or supporting a relatively slow battleline, which matches up to the Eastern Med/Arabian Sea battle lines. Also good as a 'heavy convoy escort' like the R-class did against the Kriegsmarine, not enough ship to realistically defeat a modern battleship, but enough ship that it could stand a reasonable chance of going down while dealing damage.....which would force a raider to either avoid the contact, or be forced home for repairs after the fight.
Comparing it to my own ships, as it's a simple base of comparison for me, the update wouldn't fare well against an Implacable (would have done pretty well against a Veracruz, but those are all razor blades now thanks to Rome). A Sultan Ali could kill it, but would probably take enough damage to be forced to at least do pierside repairs. A Renown or Revenge wouldn't want to fight it unless necessary, due to likelihood of needing a drydocking afterwards, and about the same with the other Razee classes of 'super cruiser'.
More or less.
A couple other factors
A) while the NPCs are passive by design, I think "storyline" wise we should consider them as well. However, they are somewhat limited by nature. In times of strife, these ships in the rear areas could increase the 'cost' of trying a fait accomplie.
B) Unlike the UK, most of us do not have many spare capital ships lying around. While someone could assign a battle cruiser or DN to hunt convoys, that removes a much bigger unit from the battle lanes. If one or two of these can take ships twice their tonnage out of main theater for months, that's not bad for something costing a light cruiser in BP to upgrade.
C) Between the belt and deck, I a hoping they will be 'tough out', requiring most opponents to be at a range there's at least a chance of a main battery pen.
They lack torpedo bulkheads, but that's really not worth a full refurbishment. Between the short length, turbo-electric, and torpedo nets - which the Brits tested and found worked most of the time vs. net cutters - they should be hard torpedo targets ...for a 15000 ton vessel.
In 1924 I'll be upgrading the Smurgh class as well, which will be more combat worthy as it can have the 333L43 and also make 24kts, but have better armor.
The Tortoise class though..I look forward to when I replace that with a new CDS ship.
It's simply too small and underarmed to be a threat to a DNs....but it's faster than many.
However, if someone wants to dedicate a modern capital unit for an unknown number of mo
Not to be done until 1924...
For comparison this is the much more expensive ($) refurbishment of the Predreadnaught
Simurgh class.
Intended as analogous to the OTL Regina Marinas, I rather liked these pre-dreads.
For Parthia they were also meant to be the transition between pre-dreads and dreadnaughts.
While the Tortoise was 13" the Rohks were 12" with better guns, and the Simurghs returned to 13" (345mm) which
would become the main dreadnaught gun as well.
But the Parthians were trying for an armor belt 'proof' at battle ranges against their own main guns, which also
demanded a rather heavy main belt.
The result was a rather robust pre-dreadnaught. Which I meant to upgrade a decade ago.
Still, for <7BP, it will be useful in a variety of secondary roles, while demanding a first-line capital ship to confidently engage it.
REFURBISHMENT
Base Cost : $17 * 0.25 = $4.25
armanent & machinery = 1499.5+1676=3175.5 = 3.1755 BP, $6.351
armor & functional misc wt = 1874+912=2786 = 2.786 BP, $2.786
Hull, fittings, & equipment = 6514/5000= $1.3028
Fuel, ammo, stores, NF Misc wt = 2236+683+200 =3119/2000=$1.5595
Subtotals : 5.9615 BP, $16.2493
Total : 5.96 BP, $ 16.25
(see details below)
Original engines : 2312
Original Fuel : 2560
Original Main Mag : 280
Original Armor Deck : 1817
Original Hull : 5915
New Misc wt: 1112 (912 func)
Reserve : 200
AD
140t Fire Control
25t LR Radio
10t SR Radio dedicated aircraft
25t Hulesmeyer
25t Searchlight Tower (NF)
OD
5t Paravanes
5t Gunpowder Cat tranverse mounting
40t 2x Scout Floatplane
HAW
25t Enhanced Fire Suppression
19t CO2 compressor AC
HBW
25t Enhanced Pumps
149t Torpedo Nets
419t Turboelectric Generator
A) Armanent and Machinery :
- New Steam Turboelec Turbines 24kts : 1676
New main gun turrets - 333L43
Gun + Mounts : 729
180L45-> 180L43 : 700t
Weld shut 90mm casements : --
Install 90mm AA :59
Install 57mm AA :10.4
intall 15mm MG : 1.4
-----
1499.5
2) Armor & func wt
333L43 Turret :252t
180L43 turrets :176
90mm : 25
57mm : 2
subtotal : 455
Decks
+10mm fore
+10mm upper
+50mm main, stern
New Deck : 3013 : +1196
Vert :(30+10*.8)/2 + (60+50*.8) = 128
Waterline : 360+ (60+50*.8) =460mm
New Aft Con : 48t
Replace endbelts with 35mm : 71t
"bulge armor" : 104t
Funct Misc Wt :912
3) Hull
- Reconfigured 'cleaver bow' (aka +13 instead of -15)
+1.0m blisters each side, 9mm skin , 7.45m deep bottom belt to keel.
New Hull : 6514
4)
Bunker: 2236
Mags : 683
NF Misc Wt : 200
Upper belt : The main belt rises 0.5m above the main protective deck. The remaining distance to freeboard is covered by the upperbelt. 54% of the upper belt is 2 decks (5m) high, and 46% is 1 deck (2.5m) high. This means 54% is 4.5m high, and 46% is 2m high, for an average of 3.35m high.
+6.0 Forecastle Deck, 30mm armor deck, top of 54% of upper belt.
+3.5 Weather Deck, 30mm armor deck, top of 46% of upper belt
+1.5 Top of main belt
+1.0 3rd Deck, Crown of Protective Deck 60mm
-1.5 3rd Deck, Bottom of main belt, lower edge of 60mm protective deck
-3.00 2nd Deck
-5.50 1st Deck, pierced by turbines
-8.08 Engineering Deck
Quote
Simurgh, Parthian Battleship laid down 1904 (Engine 1924)
Displacement:
18,581 t light; 19,682 t standard; 20,924 t normal; 21,918 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(493.77 ft / 487.20 ft) x 86.94 ft (Bulges 93.50 ft) x (28.71 / 29.87 ft)
(150.50 m / 148.50 m) x 26.50 m (Bulges 28.50 m) x (8.75 / 9.11 m)
Armament:
4 - 13.11" / 333 mm 43.0 cal guns - 1,311.75lbs / 595.00kg shells, 96 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 7.09" / 180 mm 43.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 197 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 23.55lbs / 10.68kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1911 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1919 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8,462 lbs / 3,838 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.2" / 360 mm 316.67 ft / 96.52 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 1.38" / 35 mm 170.51 ft / 51.97 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Upper: 5.31" / 135 mm 316.67 ft / 96.52 m 10.99 ft / 3.35 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Hull Bulges:
0.35" / 9 mm 323.23 ft / 98.52 m 24.44 ft / 7.45 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.4" / 365 mm 6.50" / 165 mm 13.6" / 345 mm
2nd: 5.91" / 150 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 5.31" / 135 mm
3rd: 1.38" / 35 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 6.10" / 155 mm
Forecastle: 1.57" / 40 mm Quarter deck: 3.15" / 80 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 14.17" / 360 mm, Aft 2.95" / 75 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 50,873 shp / 37,951 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 6,600nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,236 tons
Complement:
869 - 1,130
Cost:
£1.552 million / $6.208 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,399 tons, 6.7 %
- Guns: 1,399 tons, 6.7 %
Armour: 7,880 tons, 37.7 %
- Belts: 2,847 tons, 13.6 %
- Bulges: 104 tons, 0.5 %
- Armament: 1,637 tons, 7.8 %
- Armour Deck: 3,013 tons, 14.4 %
- Conning Towers: 280 tons, 1.3 %
Machinery: 1,676 tons, 8.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,514 tons, 31.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,343 tons, 11.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,112 tons, 5.3 %
- Hull below water: 593 tons
- Bulge void weights: 200 tons
- Hull above water: 44 tons
- On freeboard deck: 50 tons
- Above deck: 225 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
32,602 lbs / 14,788 Kg = 28.9 x 13.1 " / 333 mm shells or 4.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.35
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.560 / 0.564
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.21 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.07 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 24.28 ft / 7.40 m, 21.98 ft / 6.70 m
- Forward deck: 35.00 %, 21.98 ft / 6.70 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Average freeboard: 17.04 ft / 5.19 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 60.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108.0 %
Waterplane Area: 29,840 Square feet or 2,772 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 167 lbs/sq ft or 813 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 2.16
- Overall: 1.01
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
earlier I posted a ~15000 ton vessel armed with 230mm guns which we all agreed was a failure.
Conceptually I see roles for "Heavy" and "Light" armored cruisers.
The 4 Zemakas and 4 Asdar currently are the 'heavies', but I can see the heavy category may escalate up into battlecruisers, and I have the
Dahae series for that, It kinda depends on folks actually DO with their BCs. I'm guessing a fast wing of the battleine to force engagements, and tip/run raids. Unlike the RN, our nations are close to parity, and the more expensive ships get, the less likely I find it that limited battleline resources would be devoted to scout/raid/convoy defense. Especially if they can be mousetrapped in return. Plus there's always the risk of an encounter in poor visibility
But there is still the light AC category - or which I may have tonnage in 1924.
This is to back the scout line and dispatch 6-8000 ton cruisers, be faster than ACs/BCs.though still slower than the Zemakas...
Not really intended for fighting other ACs, they can if needed.
The deck+belt is thick enough against the older Byzantine 10" or new IJN 8", though they would want to keep the Byzantines at range for a deck hit fight.
Quote
Saka, Parthian Light Armored Cruiser laid down 1924
Displacement:
12,500 t light; 13,157 t standard; 14,535 t normal; 15,638 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(538.35 ft / 531.50 ft) x 71.06 ft x (27.89 / 29.44 ft)
(164.09 m / 162.00 m) x 21.66 m x (8.50 / 8.97 m)
Armament:
6 - 10.04" / 255 mm 47.0 cal guns - 599.66lbs / 272.00kg shells, 128 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1913 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides, forward deck aft
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 350 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1911 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 150 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,455 lbs / 2,021 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 345.47 ft / 105.30 m 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
Ends: 1.38" / 35 mm 185.99 ft / 56.69 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 435.60 ft / 132.77 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.09" / 180 mm 2.95" / 75 mm 6.30" / 160 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.36" / 60 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 2.36" / 60 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 6.50" / 165 mm, Aft 1.38" / 35 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 88,685 shp / 66,159 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 9,520nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,480 tons
Complement:
661 - 860
Cost:
£3.809 million / $15.234 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 976 tons, 6.7 %
- Guns: 976 tons, 6.7 %
Armour: 2,970 tons, 20.4 %
- Belts: 1,116 tons, 7.7 %
- Armament: 702 tons, 4.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1,051 tons, 7.2 %
- Conning Towers: 101 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 2,921 tons, 20.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,018 tons, 34.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,036 tons, 14.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 615 tons, 4.2 %
- Hull below water: 202 tons
- Hull void weights: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 38 tons
- On freeboard deck: 102 tons
- Above deck: 173 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,576 lbs / 7,519 Kg = 32.8 x 10.0 " / 255 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a round stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.483 / 0.492
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.48 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.05 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.59 ft / 7.80 m, 23.29 ft / 7.10 m
- Forward deck: 25.00 %, 23.29 ft / 7.10 m, 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
- Aft deck: 40.00 %, 20.67 ft / 6.30 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 21.36 ft / 6.51 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 149.1 %
Waterplane Area: 24,783 Square feet or 2,302 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 136 lbs/sq ft or 666 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.30
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Intended to be a "Light Armored Cruiser" to return the vessel to the role of defeating opposing scout cruisers and protected cruisers.
Named for nomadic Iranian tribes from prehistory.
Main Gun : 255L47 Designed 1917
Secondary Gun : 120L43 designed 1913.
Anti-Aircraft Gun : 90L50 designed 1911.
Armor
A debate between extensive light armor to defeat QF weapons of their intended prey, or thicker AON armor to also allow long range engagements with peers led to the thicker armor.
Main Belt : 125mm ,
rises 1.5m above protective deck
+2.5m above WL to -1.8m Below WL
Inclined outwards 12degrees
4.3/cos(12) =4.3960= 4.4
End belts protect the waterline bow and stern from splinters
and cover -1.5 to +1.0
Armor Deck :
35mm forward (proof vs. 210mm splinters)
60mm Citadel & stern (proof vs 360mm splinters)
Misc Wt :
100t Const Resv
98t FC
25t LR Radio
25t Searchlight Tower
25t Hulesmeyer
32t : 2 x Quad 21"
10t : 2x Gunpowder Cat On stern.
40t : 2x Scout Floatplane
20t : Stern Hanger
13t: CO2 Compressor AC
25t : Extra Fire Suppression
162t : Torpedo Nets
15t : Enhanced Hydrophones.
25t : Extra Pumps.
Decks :
6.0 Forecastle Deck
3.5 Weather deck
+2.5 top main belt.
1.0 Battery Deck, Top Belt, Crown Protective deck
-1.5 2nd deck, bottom protective dec
-1.8 Bottom Main Belt
-4.0 1st Deck
-7.25 Engineering
-8.33 Keel, Double Bottom
It's funny, but it is difficult for me to keep that Saka class at that speed and armor combo.
For a Parthian ship, the armor is light.
But I want to keep the tonnage down.
I have a 28knot version - with TDS - And 165mm belt, just seems more well rounded,
But I think by time it launched in 1926 I'd regret the speed choice,
and by 1936 it would definitely feel to slow.
Simurgh looks alot more useful than the older pre-dred. The secondaries are much better laid out and its got bigger guns.
Saka seems off, its more expensive and slower than the Myokos, while only having 6 guns. Armor is better but not sure its worth it.
2 knot speed margins I am willing to give up. I chose the guns>armor>speed aspect of the triangle for this game.
I think much of the weight is the deck armor and guns....and barbettes.
The role isn't just cruiser focused, but also something that can still contend with older ACs. Which takes more oomph.
The 60mm deck armor is very heavy, but means it's proof against splinters up to 360mm- most Byzantine or IJN guns.
It should even stop them out to the near horizon - giving the Saka's time to run away.
Plus with ranges getting longer, it's useful against 8-10" guns at range
I can fit 8x230L44 or the 6x255L47, with either the ROF should be reasonable and able to maintain ladders.
The performance advantage of the 255 is that it can hole cruiser-level armor out to the horizon.
If it can see it, it can sink it.
Maybe I should relook at the 230mm design, see if dropping the deck armor to 55mm might buy 1 knot.
It's just not as good a gun vs some of the older ACs out there, but perhaps those will all go out of service.
I actually have a lot of various Light Armored Cruiser designs
I've been looking at them since, oh mid 1910s.
The come in 255, 230 and 180 combinations.
The way folks are building the 180 doesn't seem viable.
Interestingly I can build this in 1923 for the cost of ~40 reserve tons. Really not much.
I will have to check what the 255 built in 1923 costs.
Logi is correct, I shouldn't build 4 battlewagons at once, really crimps
the ability to make these lighter but important designs.
So this is a 230mm version, with 31 knots.
The 178kg shell is pretty decent. the Parthians expect 139mm pen at 14km
while the splinters can pierce 38.3mm armor.
Against cruisers, still capable.
Against old ACs...not nearly as much.
The 255L47 is expected at 18km to do 151mm belt and 50mm deck as well as 42.4mm splinter pen.
For night fights, it can penetrate 200mm at 13km and less, so some BCs, but with a higher ROF.
But that does mean where the 230mmm is going to be ~150 the 255 is doing 200,
and the superior deck penetration vastly expands the threat envelope.
Granted all those numbers are for the older 1915 shells, using Logi's ballistics tool.
I haven't reworked them for the 1920 shells I will have shortly.
The end belts and deck go away,
and the battery armor gets slimmed.
It sacrifices the protective deck for an armored deck.
That means the height of the armor belt can come down, as it no longer has to guard against shells diving over the top onto the slopes of the PD.
That also means the belt isn't backed by a deck anymore, so instead of a waterline shell having to defeat 125mm outsloped and then 60mm...it has to defeat 125mm outsloped.
edit : hmm forgot to include the ship....
Quote
Saka, Parthian Armored Cruiser laid down 1924
Displacement:
12,507 t light; 13,233 t standard; 14,628 t normal; 15,744 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(571.30 ft / 564.30 ft) x 70.54 ft x (26.57 / 28.07 ft)
(174.13 m / 172.00 m) x 21.50 m x (8.10 / 8.56 m)
Armament:
8 - 9.06" / 230 mm 44.0 cal guns - 392.42lbs / 178.00kg shells, 185 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1913 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides, forward deck aft
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 350 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1911 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 150 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,997 lbs / 1,813 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 366.80 ft / 111.80 m 11.42 ft / 3.48 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 435.60 ft / 132.77 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 2.56" / 65 mm 4.92" / 125 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.17" / 55 mm
Forecastle: 0.00" / 0 mm Quarter deck: 2.17" / 55 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.92" / 125 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 98,156 shp / 73,225 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 9,570nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,511 tons
Complement:
664 - 864
Cost:
£3.820 million / $15.280 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 858 tons, 5.9 %
- Guns: 858 tons, 5.9 %
Armour: 2,568 tons, 17.6 %
- Belts: 862 tons, 5.9 %
- Armament: 681 tons, 4.7 %
- Armour Deck: 961 tons, 6.6 %
- Conning Tower: 63 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,233 tons, 22.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,223 tons, 35.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,121 tons, 14.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 625 tons, 4.3 %
- Hull below water: 208 tons
- Hull void weights: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 38 tons
- On freeboard deck: 102 tons
- Above deck: 177 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,905 lbs / 7,668 Kg = 45.5 x 9.1 " / 230 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck ,
a ram bow and a round stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.484 / 0.493
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.76 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 26.12 ft / 7.96 m, 23.79 ft / 7.25 m
- Forward deck: 37.00 %, 23.79 ft / 7.25 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Aft deck: 28.00 %, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 21.23 ft / 6.47 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 165.2 %
Waterplane Area: 26,142 Square feet or 2,429 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 134 lbs/sq ft or 654 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.97
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Intended to be a "Light Armored Cruiser" to return the vessel to the role of defeating opposing scout cruisers and protected cruisers.
Main Gun : 230L44 Designed 1913
Secondary Gun : 120L43 designed 1913.
Anti-Aircraft Gun : 90L50 designed 1911.
Armor
A debate between extensive light armor to defeat QF weapons of their intended prey, or thicker AON armor to also allow long range engagements with peers led to the thicker armor.
Belt : 125mm , +1.7m above WL to -1.7m Below WL
Inclined outwards 12degrees
3.4/cos(12) =3.72699 = 3.4759 : 3.48
Armor Deck :
55mm Citadel & stern (proof vs 330mm splinters)
Misc Wt :
100t Const Resv
102t FC
25t LR Radio
25t Searchlight Tower
25t Hulesmeyer
32t : 2 x Quad 21"
10t : 2x Gunpowder Cat On stern.
40t : 2x Scout Floatplane
20t : Stern Hanger
The lowered stern is supposed to be some sort of AC recovery
area.
13t: CO2 Compressor AC
25t : Extra Fire Suppression
168t : Torpedo Nets
15t : Enhanced Hydrophones.
25t : Extra Pumps.
Decks :
6.5 Forecastle Deck
4.1 Weather deck
1.7 Battery Deck, Top Belt, Armored deck
-0.7 2nd deck
-1.7 Bottom Main Belt
-3.3 1st Deck
-6.8 Engineering
-8.1 Keel, Double Bottom
Edit : Did a little more tweaking for 1924 vessel
'Opportunity Cost'...
What is the opportunity cost of boosting the ship from 30 to 31 knots ?
Apparently it means
+500 tons
3T2 -> 2T3 = more vulnerable
mount armor gets much thinner = more vulnerable while more important
belt height comes down slightly = slightly more vulnerable.
gets 6m longer (slightly bigger target)
Torpedo hits drop from 2.0 to 1.8
Overall, while I'd like 31 knots.... not seeming like it's worthwhile.
Then there's the temptation to add another 500 tons to fix the problems...
Quote
Saka, Sythian, Parthian Armored Cruiser laid down 1924
Displacement:
13,000 t light; 13,745 t standard; 15,180 t normal; 16,327 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(557.74 ft / 551.18 ft) x 69.98 ft x (27.33 / 28.89 ft)
(170.00 m / 168.00 m) x 21.33 m x (8.33 / 8.80 m)
Armament:
6 - 10.04" / 255 mm 47.0 cal guns - 599.66lbs / 272.00kg shells, 165 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1913 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides, forward deck aft
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 350 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1911 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 150 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,455 lbs / 2,021 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 358.27 ft / 109.20 m 14.27 ft / 4.35 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 435.60 ft / 132.77 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 2.36" / 60 mm 4.92" / 125 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.36" / 60 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 2.36" / 60 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.92" / 125 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 102,833 shp / 76,713 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 9,640nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,583 tons
Complement:
683 - 888
Cost:
£4.064 million / $16.258 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 976 tons, 6.4 %
- Guns: 976 tons, 6.4 %
Armour: 2,714 tons, 17.9 %
- Belts: 1,056 tons, 7.0 %
- Armament: 516 tons, 3.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,077 tons, 7.1 %
- Conning Tower: 65 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,387 tons, 22.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,307 tons, 35.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,180 tons, 14.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 616 tons, 4.1 %
- Hull below water: 208 tons
- Hull void weights: 105 tons
- Hull above water: 38 tons
- On freeboard deck: 82 tons
- Above deck: 183 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,495 lbs / 7,482 Kg = 32.6 x 10.0 " / 255 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a round stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.504 / 0.513
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.88 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 23.79 ft / 7.25 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 23.79 ft / 7.25 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 21.85 ft / 6.66 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154.3 %
Waterplane Area: 25,793 Square feet or 2,396 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 137 lbs/sq ft or 671 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.32
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
Probably the final tinkering.
Resets to 1924.
This wheedles at the vessel to get a 31knot turn of speed.
This does mean that instead of 3T2 x 255 there's 2x T3 255, all forward.
Intended to be a "Light Armored Cruiser" to return the vessel to the role of defeating opposing scout cruisers and protected cruisers.
Main Gun : 255L47 Designed 1917
Secondary Gun : 120L43 designed 1913.
Anti-Aircraft Gun : 90L50 designed 1911.
Armor
A debate between extensive light armor to defeat QF weapons of their intended prey, or thicker AON armor to also allow long range engagements with peers led to the thicker armor.
Belt : 125mm , +2.75m above WL to -1.57m Below WL
rises 1.25m above protective deck
Inclined outwards 12degrees
4.25/cos(12) =4.3449 = 4.35
Armor Deck :
25mm portective fore deck
60mm Citadel & stern (proof vs 360mm splinters)
Misc Wt :
95t Const Resv
98t FC
25t LR Radio
25t Searchlight Tower
25t Hulesmeyer
10t SR Radio Dedicated AC
32t : 2 x Quad 21"
10t : 2x Gunpowder Cat On stern.
40t : 2x Scout Floatplane on stern
5t : Paravanes
13t: CO2 Compressor AC
25t : Extra Fire Suppression
168t : Torpedo Nets
15t : Enhanced Hydrophones.
25t : Extra Pumps.
Decks :
6.5 Forecastle Deck
4.0 Weather deck
2.75 Top Armored Belt
1.5 Battery Deck, Crown protective deck
-1.0 2nd deck, lower edge protective deck
-1.5 Bottom Main Belt
-3.5 1st Deck
-7.2 Engineering
-8.33 Keel, Double Bottom
A bit more tinkering with the 180mm cruiser
scraped up enough weight to thicken the deck and belt slightly.
Edit - after a little research it looks like I researched the larger shell.
so had to modify the shell count and weight
Royal Nssean X, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1923
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,496 t standard; 9,412 t normal; 10,144 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(556.83 ft / 551.18 ft) x 54.66 ft x (22.64 / 23.94 ft)
(169.72 m / 168.00 m) x 16.66 m x (6.90 / 7.30 m)
Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 198.42lbs / 90.00kg shells, 190 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 155 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1923 Model
12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 800 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,524 lbs / 1,145 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.31" / 135 mm 385.83 ft / 117.60 m 10.73 ft / 3.27 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 5.31" / 135 mm
2nd: 1.38" / 35 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.31" / 135 mm, Aft 1.38" / 35 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 73,033 shp / 54,483 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 7,980nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,649 tons
Complement:
477 - 621
Cost:
£2.406 million / $9.624 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 601 tons, 6.4 %
- Guns: 601 tons, 6.4 %
Armour: 1,845 tons, 19.6 %
- Belts: 888 tons, 9.4 %
- Armament: 199 tons, 2.1 %
- Armour Deck: 693 tons, 7.4 %
- Conning Towers: 64 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 2,441 tons, 25.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,720 tons, 28.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,412 tons, 15.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 393 tons, 4.2 %
- Hull below water: 40 tons
- Hull void weights: 50 tons
- Hull above water: 33 tons
- On freeboard deck: 124 tons
- Above deck: 146 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,631 lbs / 3,461 Kg = 42.9 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 14.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.483 / 0.492
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.08 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 26.57 ft / 8.10 m, 24.28 ft / 7.40 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 24.28 ft / 7.40 m, 21.65 ft / 6.60 m
- Aft deck: 50.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Quarter deck: 10.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Average freeboard: 17.70 ft / 5.40 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127.6 %
Waterplane Area: 19,768 Square feet or 1,837 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 92 lbs/sq ft or 448 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.86
- Longitudinal: 1.35
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Royal Niessan X.2
Much the same as the previously posted X
Minor tweaking of hull dimensions and belt
changed from outsloped 15 to 12, with height lowered.
Endbelts dispensed with, relying just on the end protective decks to thwart splinters.
This allows slighty more armor elsewhere
MB Height : 1.7 AWL to -1.5BWL = 3.2
3.2/cos(12) = 3.27148 =3.27
Having tried two variations of the three-gun mount & hoist, neither are satisfactory
.
So the Parthians have reworked with just two-gun 180 M&H with powered assists & ramming to maintain ROF
and training.
1 7
(d) (s)
A (B) [c] [w] (X) (Y)
(e) (s)
2 8
The reversion to casements is not viewed as a problem, Torpedo attack is difficult in high seas, both because the TBs are slowed, and because the torpedoes tend to breach the wave troughs.
The Parthians expect floatplanes to taxi up to the fantail, so aircraft handling facilities are placed on the stern.
50t - Reserve
AD
61t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
10t - SR Radio -dedicated AC command center
25t - Searchlight tower (NF)
25t - Hulesmeyer
OD
18t - 2TT3 21" 3t
55t - 2x 25+5 - Fighter Float + Gunpwdr CAT
51t - 10% rotating wt Power Assist for 180L47
HAW
8t - CO2 Compresser A/C
25t - Enhanced Fire Ext.
HBW
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
25t - Extra Pumps.
Decks
+6.6 Forecastle Deck
+4.2 Weather Deck
+1.7 Battery Deck Top belt, Armored Deck
-0.80 Deck
-1.5 Bottom main belt
-3.30
-5.80 Engineering
-6.9 Keel, double bottom
I decided I should "go Parthian" on the Royal Neissan design
and see what trading a little bit of speed would mean in terms of ....MORE GUNS
So...30knots but with a P and a Q mount !
Royal Niessean XII, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1923
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,555 t standard; 9,477 t normal; 10,215 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(542.56 ft / 538.06 ft) x 57.94 ft x (22.64 / 23.91 ft)
(165.37 m / 164.00 m) x 17.66 m x (6.90 / 7.29 m)
Armament:
12 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 180 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
3 raised mounts
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 155 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1923 Model
12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 800 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,185 lbs / 1,445 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 376.64 ft / 114.80 m 11.55 ft / 3.52 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -15.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.31" / 135 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 4.92" / 125 mm
2nd: 1.38" / 35 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.77" / 45 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.77" / 45 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.92" / 125 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 65,180 shp / 48,624 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,044nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,660 tons
Complement:
479 - 624
Cost:
£2.511 million / $10.043 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 804 tons, 8.5 %
- Guns: 804 tons, 8.5 %
Armour: 1,796 tons, 19.0 %
- Belts: 869 tons, 9.2 %
- Armament: 238 tons, 2.5 %
- Armour Deck: 642 tons, 6.8 %
- Conning Tower: 47 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,178 tons, 23.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,808 tons, 29.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,477 tons, 15.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 414 tons, 4.4 %
- Hull below water: 40 tons
- Hull void weights: 50 tons
- Hull above water: 33 tons
- On freeboard deck: 125 tons
- Above deck: 166 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,282 lbs / 3,756 Kg = 46.5 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 14.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.470 / 0.480
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.29 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.20 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 21.16 ft / 6.45 m, 18.70 ft / 5.70 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 18.70 ft / 5.70 m, 16.24 ft / 4.95 m
- Aft deck: 50.00 %, 16.24 ft / 4.95 m, 16.24 ft / 4.95 m
- Quarter deck: 10.00 %, 16.24 ft / 4.95 m, 16.24 ft / 4.95 m
- Average freeboard: 17.18 ft / 5.24 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.4 %
Waterplane Area: 20,224 Square feet or 1,879 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 99 lbs/sq ft or 484 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.85
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
Having tried two variations of the three-gun mount & hoist, neither are satisfactory.
So the Parthians have reworked with just two-gun 180 M&H with powered assists & ramming to maintain ROF
and training.
1 7
(d) (s)
A (B) [c] P(Q) [w] (X) (Y)
(e) (s)
2 8
The reversion to casements is not viewed as a problem, Torpedo attack is difficult in high seas, both because the TBs are slowed, and because the torpedoes tend to breach the wave troughs.
The belt is facehardened 125mm, outsloped 15 degrees
and capped by the armor deck at +1.7m
The belt descends to -1.7m below water, for a total height of 3.4m.
3.4m/cos(15) = 3.519 = 3.52m
The Parthians expect floatplanes to taxi up to the fantail, so aircraft handling facilities are placed on the stern.
50t - Reserve
AD
81t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
10t - SR Radio dedicated AC center
25t - Searchlight tower (NF)
25t - Hulesmeyer
OD
45t - 2x 20+5 - Scout Float + Gunpwdr CAT
75t - 10% rotating wt Power Assist for 180L47
5t - Paravanes
HAW
8t - CO2 Compresser A/C
25t - Enhanced Fire Ext.
HBW
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
25t - Extra Pumps.
Decks
+4.95 Weather Deck
+2.50 Battery Deck Top belt, Armored Deck
- 0.00 Deck
-1.5 Bottom main belt
-2.50
-5.-0 Engineering
Same gun count on a hull 4000t lighter than my Lake-class design. Belt on the Lakes is a 5mm thinner and not angled, but it's also 2 full decks where yours is about a deck and a half or so. Also the Lakes have an end belt and thicker deck armor, and a TDS, which combine to account for the 4000t. Yours also has a heavier secondary and a LOT more AA mounts in the heavier ranges. Overall, a pretty solid cruiser.
I try to tie my Belt heights to the hull I have.
Which is why I count off the decks at the bottom, using usually 2.5m as a 'deck height' - SS uses 2.44.
Then I vary how far below WL it extends based on opponent shell size.
If I have a protective Deck, I want the crown to be 1m+ above WL, and then extend the armor belt above that
to guard against descending shells going over the top and hitting the slopes of the PD.
So one of the "savings" of an armor deck is the shorter belt height, though no protective armor behind.
Yeah, TDSs are hard to fit, esp with the needed internal blister area- tends to push the belt length out.
Pretty much not bothering on smaller ships.
For 30 vs 31 knots... I'm thinking about it.
Much as I like the 135mm armor of the X.2 version.
Good point. I might adjust my belt height for my bigger 180mm Frigate down to 3.5m, and see how much tonnage I can put into seriously buffing the AA suite, considering how much more extensive you're getting in the AA department.
Quote...12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 155 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1923 Model
12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas...
Arrange them on the main deck.
"Good Hope" installation is not the best.
The casement 120 is an accepted tradeoff. Saves weight.
I used to have text about it in the earlier versions of the ship.
They aren't far off the water and won't be useful in heavy seas.
That's accepted as torpedoes don't run well when they broach in sea troughs in heavy seas.
So weather that renders them out of service should be the same that makes torpedo attack unlikely to work.
Plus casement guns have an advantage in actually hitting things low on the water, as they have more danger space.
The real downside is if the ship takes on water/list, those are holes for water egress.
There the Armor deck helps, as it increases the flotation reserve in the first place.
As for the AA-
I'm roughly basing it on the French 1924 Duquesne and 1925 Suffren class cruisers.
Duquesne :
eight 75 mm/50 (2.95 inch) model 1922 naval gun on single Model 1922 gun mounts. ....
The medium anti-aircraft armament was augmented with eight 37 mm/50 (1.46 inch) model 1925 guns in eight Model 1925 single mounts....
To complete the light AA armament... twelve 13,2 mm (0.5 inch) Model 1929 machine guns....These guns would be mounted in twin mountings.
Suffern :
The secondary armament on Suffren was eight 75 mm/50 Model 1924 high-angle guns in single mounts. Starting with Colbert these were replaced by eight 90 mm/50 Model 1926 high-angle guns in Model 1926 single mounts.[16] Dupleix carried the 90 mm guns in four Model 1930 twin mounts.
The light anti-aircraft armament on Suffren was eight 37 mm/50 Model 1925 guns in single mounts. ....
]Suffren received six twin 13.2 mm Hotchkiss machine guns in 1934
So I am a touch heavier in the AA, but not greatly so.
I haven't designed my 30-40mm AA yet, so the 57s are the closest.
Edit : Posted 2 ships in this reply. The first was just the 12 gun modified. Then I removed that and started from the optimised X,2 hull.
This version has slightly better armor.
Part of the fun of comments is they cause me to reassess my choices.
So what IS the tradeoff for casements?
As mentioned, they were a deliberate choice on these vessels.
With the PQ mounts, they also keep the deck clear for firing arcs.
Only the corners are really "available" for secondary guns.
So, if I stack 120 with superimposed 90mm at the corners, that should..work?
But I don't think there's room for 4 sets of 3 x T1 120 at the corners
Just a hunch.
So I'd have to downgrade to 8 mounts, giving a 4 x 120 broadside instead of 6 x 120.
Not horrid, but not an improvement.
Plus having to move the 90mm "up" means I displace the 57mm from there.
So I drop to twin 57mm fore / aft to take out fast moving aircraft coming the length of the ship, or both can engage on the broadside.
on this second, I put the 57s in the corners also, just double superimposed. This gives 4 in each direction.
Different.
I don't think the "gain" of heavy weather 120mm is really worth it,
as said, torpedoes are less of a threat then, and destroyers would be struggling to make speed anyhow.
Quote
Royal Nssean XII, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1923
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,537 t standard; 9,462 t normal; 10,202 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(553.48 ft / 547.90 ft) x 57.41 ft x (22.64 / 23.91 ft)
(168.70 m / 167.00 m) x 17.50 m x (6.90 / 7.29 m)
Armament:
12 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 198.42lbs / 90.00kg shells, 180 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
3 raised mounts
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 155 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 800 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,071 lbs / 1,393 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 367.09 ft / 111.89 m 10.40 ft / 3.17 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 5.12" / 130 mm
2nd: 1.38" / 35 mm 0.98" / 25 mm -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.31" / 135 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 64,281 shp / 47,954 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,060nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,666 tons
Complement:
479 - 623
Cost:
£2.461 million / $9.843 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 759 tons, 8.0 %
- Guns: 759 tons, 8.0 %
Armour: 1,768 tons, 18.7 %
- Belts: 769 tons, 8.1 %
- Armament: 236 tons, 2.5 %
- Armour Deck: 713 tons, 7.5 %
- Conning Tower: 51 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,148 tons, 22.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,882 tons, 30.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,462 tons, 15.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 443 tons, 4.7 %
- Hull below water: 40 tons
- Hull void weights: 60 tons
- Hull above water: 33 tons
- On freeboard deck: 149 tons
- Above deck: 161 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,458 lbs / 3,837 Kg = 47.5 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 2.6 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 15.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.83
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.08
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.465 / 0.475
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.54 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.41 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 23.79 ft / 7.25 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 23.79 ft / 7.25 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Aft deck: 47.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Quarter deck: 13.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Average freeboard: 17.54 ft / 5.35 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 130.7 %
Waterplane Area: 20,320 Square feet or 1,888 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 99 lbs/sq ft or 483 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.85
- Longitudinal: 1.39
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Royal Niessan X.2
Much the same as the previously posted X
Minor tweaking of hull dimensions and belt
changed from outsloped 15 to 12, with height lowered.
Endbelts dispensed with, relying just on the end protective decks to thwart splinters.
This allows slighty more armor elsewhere
MB Height : 1.6 AWL to -1.5BWL = 3.
3.21cos(12) = 3.169 =3.17
Having tried two variations of the three-gun mount & hoist, neither are satisfactory
.
So the Parthians have reworked with just two-gun 180 M&H with powered assists & ramming to maintain ROF
and training.
1 7
(d) (s)
A (B) [c] [w] (X) (Y)
(e) (s)
2 8
The reversion to casements is not viewed as a problem, Torpedo attack is difficult in high seas, both because the TBs are slowed, and because the torpedoes tend to breach the wave troughs.
The Parthians expect floatplanes to taxi up to the fantail, so aircraft handling facilities are placed on the stern.
65t - Reserve
AD
61t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
10t - SR Radio -dedicated AC command center
25t - Searchlight tower (NF)
25t - Hulesmeyer
OD
18t - 2TT3 21" 3t on stern
55t - 2x 20+5 - Fighter Float + Gunpwdr CAT
76t - 10% rotating wt Power Assist for 180L47
HAW
8t - CO2 Compresser A/C
25t - Enhanced Fire Ext.
HBW
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
25t - Extra Pumps.
Decks
+6.5 Forecastle Deck
+4.1 Weather Deck
+1.6 Battery Deck Top belt, Armored Deck
-1.00 Deck
-1.5 Bottom main belt
-3.50
-5.80 Engineering
-6.9 Keel, double bottom
Inspired by Snip,
I rummaged through my designs and made an excel sheet of the classes I'd like to build, their build times, and how many I'd like to build at once.
Then I expanded it over 5 years.
On the 'Desired NEW Build' list 1924-1929
2 'Imulhuru' Battleships 45k
2 'Stormbreaker' fast Battleships 38k
3 'Dahae' heavy armored cruiser (battlecruiser) 22k
4 Zemaka heavy armored cruiser 18.5k
4 Roc Carriers 16k
6 Avio Aristabara Flight Deck Cruisers 13.5k
4 Saka Light Armored Cruisers 12k
12 Moulek IIC Cruisers 6k
20 Artesmia II Frigates 3k
16 Babr Ocean Destroyers
32 Vahkar Fleet Destroyers
6 Gatekeeper Coast Defense Cruiser
16 Mira Pa Coast Defense Corvette
20 SS-750t
160 MTB-D
Aux
2 Hakma FSV
2 Avio Piarika Seaplane Tender
10 Deniz Ghoorbagheh Torpedo Tender
3 Deniz Sayadar Nettender
40 Patrol Sloops
30 Gnat-A Coastal Gunboats
30 Gnat-B Coastal Subchasers
30 Gnat-C Coastal Minesweepers
Only one tiny problem :
...that build list takes like 86 BP / HY....which is
quite a lot more than I have...
Oh well, back to the drawing board.
Thats, a lot of toys. Perhaps looking at a plan from a construction capacity perspective would yield a more tunable result.
Quote from: snip on October 25, 2022, 11:24:17 PM
Thats, a lot of toys. Perhaps looking at a plan from a construction capacity perspective would yield a more tunable result.
What, limits ?!?!
I can't believe we don't have enough BP to just do what we want. What is up with that?
Sadly it means I can't have all the shiny toys I want :(
I'm sad too.
Quote...Only one tiny problem :
...that build list takes like 86 BP / HY....which is
quite a lot more than I have...
Scrap the old hulls to get more BP.
;)
Quote from: Jefgte on October 29, 2022, 04:29:54 PM
Scrap the old hulls to get more BP.
;)
NOoooo !
My glorious old rusty historical vessels are a vital part of my plans !
...and given my sprawling territories, I rather need the numbers.
On a more realistic look, the 'Desired Builds' vs. what I can actually do
helps inform some decisions.
After the
Kalifern class, I can either do the
Irmulhu or the
Stormbreaker, not both.
Two
Stormbreaker would give me a 'fast wing' of 4x 26knts...which is still slower than alot of capital ships, so not sure that's worth it.
The additional 7,000 tons for an
Irmulhu looks like a good choice then, as a
Kalifern successor
Likewise, I've long wanted to do a 'Light Armored Cruiser' and I like the
Dahae 'Heavy Armored Cruiser' designs, but I can't do both.
Combined they are 117.5 BP
Probably simply building more 2-4
Zemaka and rebuilding the
Asbara class is more reasonable. That would give me 10-12 ships with 8x 10L47.
On aircraft carriers, I think I need to downscale that to the 'flight deck cruisers' and only 1-2 actual light carrier as a trials platform.
the late 1920s can be the carrier building spree.
On cruisers, the budget crunch highlights that while the 8000ton Royal Neissan are nice ships, but cost 1/3 more than the earlier classes.
I really need to get more hulls. So reverting to an 6000 ton, less capable hull, will help me keep numbers up.
The question will be if I continue the Artesmia class Frigates. The first 2 are just completed and are good maritime patrol, but poor as cruisers. Pressed into service with a fleet, they would be very good for intercepting destroyer/MTB attacks...but I have other ships for that too.
That's a lot of tonnage for ships that have limited use. Probably worth making a slower and more capable version is probably better.
Destroyers are a continuing problem.
I want lots of ASW / Anti-torpedo boat platforms.
The 1500ton ships are better for that,
but I can afford 4 "Vakhar" (wolf) for 3 Babr (Tiger).
Despite recent record of torpedo attacks, I still believe in MTBs,
but I intend
not to use them on battlefleets.
MTBs are meant to be deployed in large squadrons and used in anti-commerce sweeps
or towards beachheads or independent squadrons.
Even if not deployed, the idea that there's 50-60 MTBs in striking range should
restrict enemy options.
Coastal Gunboats...there's not room in the budget to build
large numbers of ships that can't also be used as close escorts for the fleet.
So they will have to be fewer and at least 23 knots.
I should also take another look at a '
Dragonfly' river gunboat replacement,
but I kinda think the
Gnat-series of patrol boats fulfills that storyline role.
Submarines..I'd actually like to build more than I have down,
the new Sub Tech should result in fairly capable boats, so I'm ready to
build them in numbers. I may just go with 500 tonners instead.
The Aux list I rather need.
Then overall, stretch the builds over more years.
Since I'm commenting on Rocky's thread, I figured I should show what I'm considering.
This is the slower of two designs.
Both are meant to replace the Artesmia I & II Frigates for long range maritime patrol and showing the flag.
with a secondary function of deep raiding/protection, and a tertiary of close escort.
While 12x 130 is fine for the close escort role, the Parthians feel the 165 is a good destroyer killer
while being more effective against the 4000-5000 ton cruisers out there. The Byzantine are tougher
but thats where night combat would be preferred.
Sayyida, Parthian Frigate laid down 1924
Displacement:
3,000 t light; 3,175 t standard; 3,675 t normal; 4,075 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(426.19 ft / 419.95 ft) x 43.73 ft x (14.21 / 15.36 ft)
(129.90 m / 128.00 m) x 13.33 m x (4.33 / 4.68 m)
Armament:
4 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 220 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1924 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 800 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1924 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides forward
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1924 Model
4 x 2 row quad mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 630 lbs / 286 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.57" / 40 mm 293.96 ft / 89.60 m 12.01 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.18" / 30 mm 1.18" / 30 mm 1.18" / 30 mm
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
4th: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.38" / 35 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.38" / 35 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.38" / 35 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 30,631 shp / 22,851 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 7,840nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 900 tons
Complement:
235 - 306
Cost:
£0.938 million / $3.750 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 159 tons, 4.3 %
- Guns: 159 tons, 4.3 %
Armour: 595 tons, 16.2 %
- Belts: 225 tons, 6.1 %
- Armament: 58 tons, 1.6 %
- Armour Deck: 305 tons, 8.3 %
- Conning Tower: 7 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,009 tons, 27.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,057 tons, 28.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 675 tons, 18.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 180 tons, 4.9 %
- Hull below water: 15 tons
- Hull void weights: 29 tons
- Hull above water: 3 tons
- On freeboard deck: 76 tons
- Above deck: 57 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,120 lbs / 1,415 Kg = 22.8 x 6.5 " / 165 mm shells or 0.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 13.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.493 / 0.506
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.60 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 23.29 ft / 7.10 m, 20.83 ft / 6.35 m
- Forward deck: 36.00 %, 20.83 ft / 6.35 m, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Aft deck: 34.00 %, 10.17 ft / 3.10 m, 10.17 ft / 3.10 m
- Quarter deck: 10.00 %, 10.17 ft / 3.10 m, 10.17 ft / 3.10 m
- Average freeboard: 15.90 ft / 4.85 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148.0 %
Waterplane Area: 12,159 Square feet or 1,130 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 56 lbs/sq ft or 273 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.70
- Longitudinal: 1.35
- Overall: 0.75
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Warning: Wrong mount for machine gun - 3rd Battery
Reserve :
34t
AD
16t - FC
25t - LR Radio
16t - Night Fighting
OD
5t - Paravanes
5t - Gunpowder CAT
25t - Fighter or Scoutfloatplane
36t - 4T3 21"
1t - ASW Kite
4t - Depthcharges
HAW
3t - CO2 Compressor AC
HBW
15t - Enhanced Hydrophone package
This version is slightly faster, like the prior one, protective deck with thickened slopes
here only 30+10 = 40mm slopes & 30mm crown, versus the other's 75mm slopes and 35mm crown.
What this one does is try to cram a whole bunch of floatplanes aft
and concentrates the guns forward.
I have concerns about the space, as it's not a big hull.
While I did try to address that keeping the aft
clear of guns, and so there's ~80.4m of room
with only the double raised 57AA in the way
Artesmia III , Parthian Frigate laid down 1924
Displacement:
3,000 t light; 3,162 t standard; 3,771 t normal; 4,258 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(446.19 ft / 439.63 ft) x 43.73 ft x (15.29 / 16.68 ft)
(136.00 m / 134.00 m) x 13.33 m x (4.66 / 5.08 m)
Armament:
4 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1924 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 5.70lbs / 2.59kg shells, 150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1924 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
4 x 2 row quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 718 lbs / 325 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 0.39" / 10 mm 327.26 ft / 99.75 m 12.01 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 115 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.18" / 30 mm 1.18" / 30 mm 1.18" / 30 mm
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
4th: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.18" / 30 mm
Forecastle: 0.00" / 0 mm Quarter deck: 1.18" / 30 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.18" / 30 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 34,193 shp / 25,508 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 9,466nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,096 tons
Complement:
239 - 312
Cost:
£0.993 million / $3.974 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 170 tons, 4.5 %
- Guns: 170 tons, 4.5 %
Armour: 354 tons, 9.4 %
- Belts: 62 tons, 1.6 %
- Armament: 31 tons, 0.8 %
- Armour Deck: 255 tons, 6.8 %
- Conning Tower: 6 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,126 tons, 29.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,108 tons, 29.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 771 tons, 20.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 241 tons, 6.4 %
- Hull below water: 26 tons
- Hull void weights: 20 tons
- Hull above water: 9 tons
- On freeboard deck: 127 tons
- Above deck: 59 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2,750 lbs / 1,247 Kg = 20.1 x 6.5 " / 165 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 13.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.449 / 0.465
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.05 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.97 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 15.00 %, 23.29 ft / 7.10 m, 20.83 ft / 6.35 m
- Forward deck: 25.00 %, 20.83 ft / 6.35 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Aft deck: 50.00 %, 11.81 ft / 3.60 m, 11.81 ft / 3.60 m
- Quarter deck: 10.00 %, 11.81 ft / 3.60 m, 11.81 ft / 3.60 m
- Average freeboard: 15.42 ft / 4.70 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 113.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.9 %
Waterplane Area: 12,254 Square feet or 1,138 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 58 lbs/sq ft or 283 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.70
- Longitudinal: 1.33
- Overall: 0.75
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Warning: Wrong mount for machine gun - 3rd Battery
The Artesmia III reduces speed to 29 from 31 knots,
in favor of armor and heavier firepower. They introduce geared drives
and continue to have great range.
The 165mm guns are effective for HE shots at range, or to take advantage of aerial spotting, or can be used for good advantage in night fighting. The 165mm shells
are also quite lethal to destroyers.
Armor is meant to defeat QF guns and splinters.
Mounts are shielded and there is a 30mm protective deck with 40mm slopes.
The 165mm guns are concentrated forward, to leave the stern free for the aircraft
handling.
The 90mm are mounted at the 'corners' of the ship, allowing barrage fire to each side or forward.
The Two-twin GAST 15mm are mounted "above" these.
The 57mm guns are mounted high up fore & aft and amid ships, giving 6 guns in each direction.
All AA guns have shielded mounts.
The Aft part of the ship has two gunpowder cats, and pairs of Ftr and cout floatplanes.
Like many Parthian ships, a hydrophone array is fitted to allow sentries to listen for distant screws.
Depth charge throwers are arranged near the torpedoes at the waist, with small racks of DCs adjacent.
To keep the stern clear for aircraft, the aft stern rails are below deck, venting through hatches ont he stern.
Resv : 11
AD
17t FC
25t LR Radio
17t Night Fighting Gear
OD
5t : Paravanes
10t : Gunpowder Cat
50 : 2x Ftr Floatplane
40 : 2xScout Floatplane
18t : 2TT3 21" Torps
4t : 2x "Y" throwers a waist, 2t DC
HAW
3t - CO2 Compressor AC
6t - DC rails, venting stern
HBW
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
10t - 1t doublewall tank, 9t avgas
1t - FireExt for tank
6.2
3.6
1.2
-1.6
-3.8 Engineering
It's definitely interesting. And built with some different philosophies to what drove the River-class Corvettes I'm building. 4 x 165 as opposed to 8 x 130. AA batteries are probably about equal in effectiveness. I guess I probably got gun shy about protected decks after the Caicos war proved how bad they are at keeping a ship alive and afloat when the shells start flying, though they do stop critical hits. I can't say you're wrong about the bigger guns, I might need to look at a 3000t class with 4 single 180s as a possibility.
I think I managed a 3x 180 on a 3000t hull.
As I recall, the difficulty I ran into was recoil forcing
a wider beam, which effected seakeeping & beam,
driving speed down.
All and all it fell down into more limited role
than I was looking for.
...I think I then turned it into a coastal frigate/
escort frigate design with a Marine platoon
and a 163mm Howitzer added.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on November 02, 2022, 09:35:06 AM
I think I managed a 3x 180 on a 3000t hull.
As I recall, the difficulty I ran into was recoil forcing
a wider beam, which effected seakeeping & beam,
driving speed down.
All and all it fell down into more limited role
than I was looking for.
...I think I then turned it into a coastal frigate/
escort frigate design with a Marine platoon
and a 163mm Howitzer added.
'
If I do it, it'll be more 1926 or beyond. And probably as a DD Leader cruiser. So, some sacrifices may wind up being made in the name of firepower.
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on November 02, 2022, 09:35:06 AM
I think I managed a 3x 180 on a 3000t hull.
As I recall, the difficulty I ran into was recoil forcing
a wider beam, which effected seakeeping & beam,
driving speed down.
All and all it fell down into more limited role
than I was looking for.
...I think I then turned it into a coastal frigate/
escort frigate design with a Marine platoon
and a 163mm Howitzer added.
I did stuff 2x8" into 1500t...
The advantage of these cruiser/escort is their low cost.
They can be built in numbers so useful for colonies.
Byzantium studied this style of ship from 1700t to 4000t with 140 or 152.
Quote from: Jefgte on November 02, 2022, 11:44:37 AM
The advantage of these cruiser/escort is their low cost.
They can be built in numbers so useful for colonies.
Byzantium studied this style of ship from 1700t to 4000t with 140 or 152.
I'm thinking about them with the DD formations. And pulling the cruisers with proper armor schemes clear of the DDs for the cruiser fight given their value.
This I think is the 3x180 CE/Coastal Gunboat that I recalled.
Other versions have 165mm + 118 or 163mm Howitzers.
Again, protective deck 35mm with 80mm slopes , but vs short-medium range QF my main concern is critical hits.
My Artesemia IIs have a 35mm box over magazines so they don't go 'boom' but in any fight versus DDs/many cruisers, they can
easily be crippled.
As Tac mentions, Armor decks should have more flotation. I *try* to account for that by adding flotation for Armor Deck designs,
but that it prep time dependent. Protective decks have some other problems, but for stopping lots of 5"-5.5" rounds they are ok.
Anyhow this design was originally projected for 1923, now I really don't know when.
Porpoise, Parthian Colonial Frigate laid down 1923
Displacement:
3,000 t light; 3,153 t standard; 3,770 t normal; 4,264 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(393.58 ft / 387.96 ft) x 51.67 ft x (14.44 / 15.78 ft)
(119.96 m / 118.25 m) x 15.75 m x (4.40 / 4.81 m)
Armament:
3 - 7.09" / 180 mm 43.0 cal guns - 176.37lbs / 80.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline forward
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1923 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1923 Model
4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 583 lbs / 264 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.77" / 45 mm 252.17 ft / 76.86 m 12.01 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.38" / 35 mm
Forecastle: 0.00" / 0 mm Quarter deck: 1.38" / 35 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.97" / 50 mm, Aft 1.38" / 35 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 28,300 shp / 21,112 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 6,840nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,111 tons
Complement:
239 - 312
Cost:
£0.848 million / $3.393 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 148 tons, 3.9 %
- Guns: 148 tons, 3.9 %
Armour: 587 tons, 15.6 %
- Belts: 226 tons, 6.0 %
- Armament: 43 tons, 1.1 %
- Armour Deck: 300 tons, 8.0 %
- Conning Towers: 17 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 946 tons, 25.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,076 tons, 28.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 770 tons, 20.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 243 tons, 6.4 %
- Hull below water: 63 tons
- Hull void weights: 45 tons
- Hull above water: 15 tons
- On freeboard deck: 55 tons
- Above deck: 65 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,781 lbs / 1,715 Kg = 21.2 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 13.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.31
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.456 / 0.472
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.51 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.70 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 17.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m, 15.91 ft / 4.85 m
- Forward deck: 40.00 %, 15.91 ft / 4.85 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Average freeboard: 14.63 ft / 4.46 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 145.5 %
Waterplane Area: 12,851 Square feet or 1,194 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 61 lbs/sq ft or 296 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.70
- Longitudinal: 1.34
- Overall: 0.75
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
Intended to replace the aged Dolphin gunboats in the far territories, the Porpoise is much like a USN Erie class.
The ship is given speed sufficient to work around the 20kt battleline if pressed into service. As a Close Escort it would serve as an intermediate screen against MTBs and DDs, while also being equipped to detect and prosecute ASW attacks.
Against attacking destroyers, the single 165mm battery is expected to wreck havok. Against smaller cruisers, it is expected to at least give reasonable "punch", as speed will be insufficient to choose range.
The protective deck is 75mm on the slopes and 35mm on the crown, which should make it immune to splinters under 200mm, and resistant to direct impacts.
Any offensive role would be at night, possibly as a follow up to an earlier attack. The Hulesmeyer device has not proved an effective early warning system, but is viewed as promising for night time formation steaming.
B and Y guns are superimposed to clear A and the aft depth charge deck respectively.
The Torpedo tubes bracke the aft superstructure, which houses the fire control for them.
(3)
A(B) [1] TT (TDC) TT [4] (Y) [Depth Charges]
(4)
The protective deck is 35mm on the flat and 80mm on the slopes. Giving protection against QF weapons, but HE and SAP.
Misc Wt
45- Reserve
15t - FC (16t)
25t - Hulesmeyer
25t - Seachlight tower (Night fighting)
3t : CO2 Compressor A/C Air conditioning
36t : 4 x T3 21" Torpedoes
16t : Depth charges
15t : Extra Fire Fighting
15t : Bow Enhanced Hydrophone station
15t : Amidships Enhanced Hydrophone Station
15t : Extra pumps
18t : Set torpedo reloads
5t : Batteries for silent hunting
Decks :
4.1m : Weather Deck
1.6m : Battery Deck - crown of protective deck
-0.9m : bottom protective deck. 1st Deck
-3.4m : Engineering deck
-4.4 m : Keel
Continuing the rebuilding of older ships to make passable 2nd class units,
the next up are the Simurgh class.
The Simurghs were conceptually a the Regina Elena, but with twin 13" main guns (345).
This is a refurbishment
It rearms the ship and adds additional deck armor, while replacing the engines.
The new turbo-electric drive will propel the ship at 24knots.
This 23+ knot range is what the Rustam ACs can do allowing them to partner.
The expectation is that for longer distance fights, the 18cm will be used
to make the range ladder, while the 333mm fire for effect.
Reconstruction would allow moving internal bulkheads and installing a TDS, though
it would require dropping speed to 22knots.
While tempting simply because I want my ships to be very torpedo resistant,
the 23-24knot speed allows a 2-3knot margin over bigger, older 21knot ships.
So instead they will rely on maneuverability, compartmentalization, and potentially
those 66% effective torpedo nets.
Simurgh, Parthian Battleship laid down 1904 (Engine 1924)
Displacement:
18,477 t light; 19,579 t standard; 20,924 t normal; 22,001 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(493.77 ft / 487.20 ft) x 86.94 ft (Bulges 93.50 ft) x (28.71 / 29.97 ft)
(150.50 m / 148.50 m) x 26.50 m (Bulges 28.50 m) x (8.75 / 9.13 m)
Armament:
4 - 13.11" / 333 mm 43.0 cal guns - 1,311.75lbs / 595.00kg shells, 96 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 7.09" / 180 mm 43.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 197 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 23.55lbs / 10.68kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1911 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1919 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8,462 lbs / 3,838 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.2" / 360 mm 316.67 ft / 96.52 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 1.38" / 35 mm 170.51 ft / 51.97 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Upper: 5.31" / 135 mm 316.67 ft / 96.52 m 10.99 ft / 3.35 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Hull Bulges:
0.35" / 9 mm 323.23 ft / 98.52 m 24.44 ft / 7.45 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.4" / 365 mm 6.50" / 165 mm 13.6" / 345 mm
2nd: 5.91" / 150 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 5.31" / 135 mm
3rd: 1.38" / 35 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm - -
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 6.10" / 155 mm
Forecastle: 1.57" / 40 mm Quarter deck: 3.15" / 80 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 14.17" / 360 mm, Aft 2.95" / 75 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 50,873 shp / 37,951 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 7,200nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,422 tons
Complement:
869 - 1,130
Cost:
£1.548 million / $6.193 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,399 tons, 6.7 %
- Guns: 1,399 tons, 6.7 %
Armour: 7,880 tons, 37.7 %
- Belts: 2,847 tons, 13.6 %
- Bulges: 104 tons, 0.5 %
- Armament: 1,637 tons, 7.8 %
- Armour Deck: 3,013 tons, 14.4 %
- Conning Towers: 280 tons, 1.3 %
Machinery: 1,676 tons, 8.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,410 tons, 30.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,447 tons, 11.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,112 tons, 5.3 %
- Hull below water: 593 tons
- Bulge void weights: 200 tons
- Hull above water: 44 tons
- On freeboard deck: 50 tons
- Above deck: 225 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
32,543 lbs / 14,761 Kg = 28.9 x 13.1 " / 333 mm shells or 4.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.35
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.560 / 0.564
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.21 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.07 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 24.28 ft / 7.40 m, 21.98 ft / 6.70 m
- Forward deck: 35.00 %, 21.98 ft / 6.70 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Average freeboard: 17.04 ft / 5.19 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 60.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108.0 %
Waterplane Area: 29,840 Square feet or 2,772 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 164 lbs/sq ft or 801 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.13
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
REFURBISHMENT
Base Cost : $17 * 0.20 = $3.4
armanent & machinery = 1499.5+1676=3175.5 = 3.1755 BP, $6.351
armor & functional misc wt = 1874+912=2786 = 2.786 BP, $2.786
Hull, fittings, & equipment = 6514/5000= $1.3028
Fuel, ammo, stores, NF Misc wt = 2422+683+200 =3305/2000=$1.6525
Subtotals : 5.9615 BP, $15.4923
Total : 5.96 BP, $ 15.49
(see details below)
Original engines : 2312
Original Fuel : 2560
Original Main Mag : 280
Original Armor Deck : 1817
Original Hull : 5915
New Misc wt: 1112 (912 func)
Reserve : 200
AD
140t Fire Control
25t LR Radio
10t SR Radio dedicated aircraft
25t Hulesmeyer
25t Searchlight Tower (NF)
OD
5t Paravanes
5t Gunpowder Cat tranverse mounting
40t 2x Scout Floatplane
HAW
25t Enhanced Fire Suppression
19t CO2 compressor AC
HBW
25t Enhanced Pumps
149t Torpedo Nets
419t Turboelectric Generator
A) Armanent and Machinery :
- New Steam Turboelec Turbines 24kts : 1676
New main gun turrets - 333L43
Gun + Mounts : 729
180L45-> 180L43 : 700t
Weld shut 90mm casements : --
Install 90mm AA :59
Install 57mm AA :10.4
intall 15mm MG : 1.4
-----
1499.5
2) Armor & func wt
333L43 Turret :252t
180L43 turrets :176
90mm : 25
57mm : 2
subtotal : 455
Decks
+10mm fore
+10mm upper
+50mm main, stern
New Deck : 3013 : +1196
Vert :(30+10*.8)/2 + (60+50*.8) = 128
Waterline : 360+ (60+50*.8) =460mm
New Aft Con : 48t
Replace endbelts with 35mm : 71t
"bulge armor" : 104t
Funct Misc Wt :912
3) Hull
- Reconfigured 'cleaver bow' (aka +13 instead of -15)
+1.0m blisters each side, 9mm skin , 7.45m deep bottom belt to keel.
New Hull : 6514
4)
Bunker: 2422
Mags : 683
NF Misc Wt : 200
Upper belt : The main belt rises 0.5m above the main protective deck. The remaining distance to freeboard is covered by the upperbelt. 54% of the upper belt is 2 decks (5m) high, and 46% is 1 deck (2.5m) high. This means 54% is 4.5m high, and 46% is 2m high, for an average of 3.35m high.
With 1923.5, the Parthians finished the 1920 Subs/ASW,
So they will be fielding new ships to feature some of this equipment.
The existing PS-1 Sentry class has 56 built or building
They are meant for Patrol/ASW/MS for coastal waters
and near harbors. Combined with the dedicated
minesweepers, it's a goodly number of small patrol
craft, being augmented by the new GNAT hulls.
The PS-2 adds sonar and squadron plot abilities
with the idea of serving as a lead vessel for the PS-1 divisions.
I don't like the small Depth Charge loadout though.
The larger DCs effect more volume and damage so the smaller
number should be more effective,
but ...I'd like more DCs.
So I may try a larger version of the ship,
pay a tad more, and fit more DCs on it.
Sentry PS-2, Parthian Senty Class Sloop laid down 1924
Displacement:
588 t light; 605 t standard; 650 t normal; 686 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(236.24 ft / 232.94 ft) x 29.53 ft x (6.56 / 6.84 ft)
(72.00 m / 71.00 m) x 9.00 m x (2.00 / 2.08 m)
Armament:
1 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal gun - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1924 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck forward
1 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal gun - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1924 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
1 raised mount
Weight of broadside 31 lbs / 14 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.12" / 3 mm - -
2nd: 0.12" / 3 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 1,892 ihp / 1,412 Kw = 17.00 kts
Range 2,900nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 81 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
63 - 83
Cost:
£0.117 million / $0.467 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 6 tons, 0.9 %
- Guns: 6 tons, 0.9 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.1 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 112 tons, 17.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 251 tons, 38.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 62 tons, 9.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 219 tons, 33.7 %
- Hull below water: 64 tons
- Hull void weights: 8 tons
- Hull above water: 66 tons
- On freeboard deck: 30 tons
- Above deck: 51 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,379 lbs / 625 Kg = 62.0 x 3.5 " / 90 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.29
Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 11.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.05
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.73
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.504 / 0.511
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.89 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.26 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 12.30 ft / 3.75 m, 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 10.66 ft / 3.25 m, 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.84 ft / 3.00 m, 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.84 ft / 3.00 m, 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
- Average freeboard: 10.32 ft / 3.15 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139.5 %
Waterplane Area: 4,599 Square feet or 427 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 142 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 36 lbs/sq ft or 177 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.85
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
A follow up to the PS-1 Patrol Sloop
Designed primarily as an affordable subchaser/minesweeper/sentry ship.
Range is sufficient to transit between territories,
while coal burning provision allows for local coal/wood to be used if bunker oil runs short.
Minesweeping gear, such as paravanes, booms, trawls, is stored
on the aft deck.
The main gun is a 90mm QF, the common light naval gun. The HV rounds will not penetrate water worth a darn, but will provide ranging information on misses. One hit with a SAP is expected to penetrate a submarine hull easily.
Stick bombs are now provided to give some waterpenetration ability.
A pair of 57mm AA are superimposed fore & aft.
Simple rangefinders and plotting tables are fitted. The plotting tables will be used in both FC and plotting attack runs.
A 'full' hydrophone package is fitted.
The -2 version also features Sonar.
As is typical in Parthian service, provision for coal/wood firing is made so that the vessel can operate from commercial coal stocks.
A turbo-electric plant is fitted, along with batteries. This is hoped to allow the ship to manuever quietly. Turbo-electric has been used for the MSW class for years, the ability to use full reverse/forward on either screw assisting in manueverability, thought useful in minefields.
The ship has a small hold, as it is anticipated it may be used to ferry cargos along territorial coasts, where it's high manueverability and shallow draft may proove useful.
Mercantile
Armanent : 2% of Normal
650t x 0.02 = 13.0
-6t guns (note, 3mm "armor" is not armor, just spray shields)
=7 tons for ASW weapons.
1t ASW Paravane
1t "Y" Thrower
1t 10x 100kg Stick bombs for main 90mm gun
4t 12x 195kg DCs
= 7 tons ASW weapons
Miscellaneous Weights :
AD :
25t LR radio
1t : FC
5t : Night Fighting
20t : Squadron Plot Room
OD :
1t : ASW Paravanes
4t : 12x 280kg DC.
25t Minesweeping gear
HAW:
65t Miscellaneous Cargo
1t CO2 compessor AC
Hull below water:
1t 10x 100kg "stick bombs" for 90mm gun
10t Basic Sonar
15t "Enhanced Hydrophone Package".
28t Turbo-electric generators
10t Batteries
This is a larger version of PS-2,
The basic problem is to fit even a little more armament Misc wt, the
ship size has to come up a fair bit.
WW1 Destroyers frequently had very few DCs
so the 12 of the preceeding class isn't ...bad...
but does put a limit on things.
So I want to double it.
But 4 extra tons of DCs takes nearly 200 tons light to fit
With the Misc wt up to 85 tons, I may subdivide
that into a Marine squad and landing boats,
as I want these ships peacetime role
of 'Coast Guard' and supporting
land forces to some degree. With the draft,
they should be able to go up most rivers quite
a way.
Sentry PS-2, Parthian Senty Class Sloop laid down 1924
Displacement:
776 t light; 797 t standard; 851 t normal; 894 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(263.93 ft / 259.19 ft) x 29.53 ft x (8.73 / 9.04 ft)
(80.45 m / 79.00 m) x 9.00 m x (2.66 / 2.75 m)
Armament:
1 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal gun - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1924 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck forward
1 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal gun - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1924 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
1 raised mount
Weight of broadside 31 lbs / 14 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.12" / 3 mm - -
2nd: 0.12" / 3 mm - -
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 2,566 ihp / 1,915 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 97 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
78 - 102
Cost:
£0.154 million / $0.618 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 6 tons, 0.7 %
- Guns: 6 tons, 0.7 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.1 %
- Armament: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 152 tons, 17.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 363 tons, 42.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 75 tons, 8.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 255 tons, 30.0 %
- Hull below water: 74 tons
- Hull void weights: 10 tons
- Hull above water: 86 tons
- On freeboard deck: 34 tons
- Above deck: 51 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,756 lbs / 797 Kg = 79.0 x 3.5 " / 90 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 12.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.06
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.446 / 0.453
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.78 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.10 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 17.72 ft / 5.40 m, 17.55 ft / 5.35 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 17.55 ft / 5.35 m, 17.39 ft / 5.30 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 9.19 ft / 2.80 m, 9.19 ft / 2.80 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 9.19 ft / 2.80 m, 9.19 ft / 2.80 m
- Average freeboard: 13.36 ft / 4.07 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154.6 %
Waterplane Area: 4,866 Square feet or 452 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 148 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 38 lbs/sq ft or 187 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.86
- Longitudinal: 3.93
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
A follow up to the PS-1 Patrol Sloop
Designed primarily as an affordable subchaser/minesweeper/sentry ship.
Range is sufficient to transit between territories,
while coal burning provision allows for local coal/wood to be used if bunker oil runs short.
Reciprocating engines are used, while less reliable than turbines,
they are simpler to maintain.
Minesweeping gear, such as paravanes, booms, trawls, is stored
on the aft deck.
The main gun is a 90mm QF, the common light naval gun. The HV rounds will not penetrate water worth a darn, but will provide ranging information on misses. One hit with a SAP is expected to penetrate a submarine hull easily.
Stick bombs are now provided to give some waterpenetration ability.
A pair of 57mm AA are superimposed fore & aft.
Simple rangefinders and plotting tables are fitted. The plotting tables will be used in both FC and plotting attack runs.
A 'full' hydrophone package is fitted.
The -2 version also features Sonar.
As is typical in Parthian service, provision for coal/wood firing is made so that the vessel can operate from commercial coal stocks.
A turbo-electric plant is fitted, along with batteries. This is hoped to allow the ship to manuever quietly. Turbo-electric has been used for the MSW class for years, the ability to use full reverse/forward on either screw assisting in manueverability, thought useful in minefields.
The ship has a small hold, as it is anticipated it may be used to ferry cargos along territorial coasts, where it's high manueverability and shallow draft may proove useful.
Mercantile
Armanent : 2% of Normal
851t x 0.02 = 17
-6t guns (note, 3mm "armor" is not armor, just spray shields)
=11 tons for ASW weapons.
1t ASW Paravane
1t "Y" Thrower
1t 10x 100kg Stick bombs for main 90mm gun
8t 24x 280g DCs
= 11 tons ASW weapons
Miscellaneous Weights :
AD :
25t LR radio
1t : FC
5t : Night Fighting
20t : Squadron Plot Room
OD :
1t : ASW Paravanes
8t : 24x 280kg DC.
25t Minesweeping gear
HAW:
85t Miscellaneous Cargo
1t CO2 compessor AC
Hull below water:
1t 10x 100kg "stick bombs" for 90mm gun
10t Basic Sonar
15t "Enhanced Hydrophone Package".
38t Turbo-electric generators
10t Batteries
Do you have the 1920 cruiser tech? That tech really helps sloops and mine warfare vessels. Since anything built to that tech that's small only needs to be .75 comp you get a lot of leeway for misc weight. Not like a 500 ton ship is going to survive in a firefight whether it's got .5, .75 or 1.0 hull strength.....so might as well build it a tad lighter and get the ASW and AA on it.
Quote from: TacCovert4 on November 27, 2022, 10:53:01 AM
Do you have the 1920 cruiser tech? That tech really helps sloops and mine warfare vessels. Since anything built to that tech that's small only needs to be .75 comp you get a lot of leeway for misc weight. Not like a 500 ton ship is going to survive in a firefight whether it's got .5, .75 or 1.0 hull strength.....so might as well build it a tad lighter and get the ASW and AA on it.
Yes I do, and that will probably be the basis of open ocean escort types, so I can make DE-style vessels.
I have some ~1000 ton multi-role escort designs
that I'd like to build in lots of 3 or 4. That would allow triangulation around subs, as well as
stand off escort distance on all sides.
Figuring out how to pay for those is an entirely different problem
Jefgte's suggestion to rearm and re-task old destroyers seems promising.
But I'd rather build new, and keep DDs as Torpedo boats or fleet escorts
So I lean towards AUX to fill the escort/patrol role.
What I really want is 500 ton Aux-builds so I can simply lay down a hull every 6 months,
but with the minimum armament of 1 x 75mm + gun, some AA, and then the ASW loadout, the minimum "normal" displacement gets pushed up.
The build cost between the smaller and heavier versions is only 22 tons/hy/ship, which is not prohibitive....but that is a 29% creep...but 0.022bp/ship...but creep...
The current Parthian destroyers are the 1143 'Wolf' Fleet destroyer and 'Leopard' Corvette (aka Pacific Destroyer).
This is meant to be the 'Wolf mkII' , while the 'Leopard II' is delayed waiting for the 118mm ASW howitzer to finish developement
New geared turbines allow better range, the addition of
sonar allows the ships to be more effective ASW role.
Quote
Vakharz "Wolf" , Parthian Empire Fleet Destroyer laid down 1924
Displacement:
1,140 t light; 1,201 t standard; 1,380 t normal; 1,523 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(339.13 ft / 334.65 ft) x 31.99 ft x (10.93 / 11.72 ft)
(103.37 m / 102.00 m) x 9.75 m x (3.33 / 3.57 m)
Armament:
4 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides, forward deck aft
2 raised mounts
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
4 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 248 lbs / 112 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
2nd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 1 shaft, 27,010 shp / 20,150 Kw = 31.10 kts
Range 5,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 322 tons
Complement:
113 - 147
Cost:
£0.456 million / $1.825 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 42 tons, 3.0 %
- Guns: 42 tons, 3.0 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.2 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 687 tons, 49.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 329 tons, 23.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 240 tons, 17.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 79 tons, 5.7 %
- Hull below water: 25 tons
- Hull void weights: 13 tons
- Hull above water: 1 tons
- On freeboard deck: 31 tons
- Above deck: 9 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
402 lbs / 182 Kg = 7.6 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.49
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 10.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.24
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.413 / 0.425
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.46 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.29 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 16.73 ft / 5.10 m, 14.27 ft / 4.35 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 14.27 ft / 4.35 m, 11.81 ft / 3.60 m
- Aft deck: 45.00 %, 11.81 ft / 3.60 m, 11.81 ft / 3.60 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.81 ft / 3.60 m, 11.81 ft / 3.60 m
- Average freeboard: 12.75 ft / 3.89 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 172.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129.3 %
Waterplane Area: 6,291 Square feet or 584 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 70 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 144 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.33
- Overall: 0.55
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
Intended as a Fleet destroyer for use outside the Oceania theater.
Range to reach a base and return at fleet speeds
The 120mm is a good destroyer
gun with decent offensive punch.
The 57mm guns are mounted 'en echelon' amid ships, on a lozenge shaped elevated platform. These replace the 90mms of the earlier series.
The TDC is in the column holding up the platform and the torpedoes
are immediately fore and aft of that.
Basic Sonar + Enhanced Hydrophones for an ASW role
(1) DC
A(B) TT TT 'Y' (X) Y
(2) DC
Range @ Speeds :
Trial Speed is 31.94knts
322t max bunker is 5000 @ 14kts
2200nm at 10knots : 77t to "get home"
So 245t are available for offensive operations,
more if "home" is close.
90% power is ~30.33kts.
50% power is ~26kts
245t fuel is good for :
445nm @ 30.33knts = 14.6 hrs.
718nm @ 26 knots = 27.6 hrs
2720nm @ 16knots = 170 hrs / 7 days
The Geared engines give an
additional reserve via better fuel efficiency
but are very new and not worked into
the calculations yet,
they meant the true range is 5500@ 14kts
With the fleet at 12-14knots,
14 or 16 knots allows reasonable range when working with the fleet from bases.
Misc wt :
14t Reserve Wt.
4 FC
0 SR Radio
5 NF
18t 2TT3 21"
2t Lt. MS paravane
8t DC
2t "Y" DC Thrower
1t ASW Paravane
1t CO2 A/C
15t Enhanced Hydrophone package
10t Basic Sonar
Quote from: TacCovert4 on November 27, 2022, 10:53:01 AM
Do you have the 1920 cruiser tech? That tech really helps sloops and mine warfare vessels. Since anything built to that tech that's small only needs to be .75 comp you get a lot of leeway for misc weight. Not like a 500 ton ship is going to survive in a firefight whether it's got .5, .75 or 1.0 hull strength.....so might as well build it a tad lighter and get the ASW and AA on it.
Exploring Tac's comment further, I tried taking the 600 ton PS-2 AUX and seeing how small I could make it on 0.75.
Slimming it down to lower the tonnage boosted the Seakeeping.
So I chopped the end off and got it to 50m.
Then I played with BC and adjusted the Turbgenerator weight...
and got the final result to 460 tons for the same vessel but cruiser built.
At 500 tons there's room for more misc weight and so the more DCs
That would be quite decent for a wartime build as I could
build them at 6months/ dock.
....so I'll remember that build.
However what I need is lots and lots of light platforms
to both patrol in peace time, and allow proper ASW screens.
So # of hulls for cost matters .
at 500/ship vs 150 - 174/ship, the Aux pencils out well.
Then there's the combat power of the 'cruiser' vs Aux.
From Springstyle notes, Aux have 1/4 "hit points" and crew,
they won't do Damage Control like a Cruiser build..
but a 460ton cruiser, with no armor and 492 float...and 1x90mm gun...
should not go destroyer hunting.
Worth exploring though.
I'd forgotten about the appearance of sonar and will have to factor it into construction in 2/24...
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 27, 2022, 07:22:12 PM
I'd forgotten about the appearance of sonar and will have to factor it into construction in 2/24...
You could just double down on ASW harpoons instead !
Basic sonar is a limited tool, the Hydrophones due most of the work,
but would allow attacks to be prosecuted better.
Against old and small subs, that's not as much an issue,
but against bigger and newer subs, the bigger DCs and better
target finding of Sonar should help.
Yeah, against small shallow subs that can't maneuver, you can just locate, rush, drop. Against subs that have actual ability to evade underwater, you need the larger charges and the better sensors to make sure you catch their dodge attempt.
Anyhow,
this is more what I was eyeing for 'Coastal Gunboats' ...or even DEs,
like 20-40 of them...
but turns out that I don't have 80BP / HY, so I may build a handful
to serve as just coastal gunboats and replace the old Dolphin class
but for DE roles... I need to find something else to build.
Sibari, Parthian Coastal Gunboat laid down 1924
Displacement:
2,000 t light; 2,189 t standard; 2,277 t normal; 2,347 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(250.72 ft / 246.06 ft) x 50.85 ft x (9.84 / 10.10 ft)
(76.42 m / 75.00 m) x 15.50 m x (3.00 / 3.08 m)
Armament:
4 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 240 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1924 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 6.42" / 163 mm 21.0 cal guns - 158.73lbs / 72.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mount, 1924 Model
1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, forward deck centre
1 raised mount
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 900 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1924 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
4 x 2 row quad mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 945 lbs / 429 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 123.03 ft / 37.50 m 8.53 ft / 2.60 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 77 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 2.56" / 65 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 2.56" / 65 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.12" / 3 mm -
4th: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.57" / 40 mm
Forecastle: 1.57" / 40 mm Quarter deck: 1.57" / 40 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 3.94" / 100 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 5,960 shp / 4,446 Kw = 18.10 kts
Range 3,140nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 159 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
164 - 214
Cost:
£0.508 million / $2.033 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 187 tons, 8.2 %
- Guns: 187 tons, 8.2 %
Armour: 580 tons, 25.5 %
- Belts: 207 tons, 9.1 %
- Armament: 78 tons, 3.4 %
- Armour Deck: 280 tons, 12.3 %
- Conning Tower: 15 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 200 tons, 8.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 716 tons, 31.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 277 tons, 12.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 317 tons, 13.9 %
- Hull below water: 129 tons
- Hull void weights: 15 tons
- Hull above water: 34 tons
- On freeboard deck: 50 tons
- Above deck: 89 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,646 lbs / 1,654 Kg = 26.6 x 6.5 " / 165 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.30
Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 12.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.10
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.647 / 0.650
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.84 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.69 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 25.00 %, 17.39 ft / 5.30 m, 14.93 ft / 4.55 m
- Forward deck: 25.00 %, 14.93 ft / 4.55 m, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
- Quarter deck: 25.00 %, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
- Average freeboard: 13.64 ft / 4.16 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 145.2 %
Waterplane Area: 9,559 Square feet or 888 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 65 lbs/sq ft or 316 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.65
- Longitudinal: 2.49
- Overall: 0.75
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
Guns :
165mm are primary direct fire.
163mm HOW are bombardment or ASW
57mm are primary AA sited for 6 Fore/aft/beam
Paired GAST 15mm are anti-strafing.
Borrowed from submarines are 4 bow tubes
firing 21" torpedoes
Armor :
Armored Deck at 1.3m caps Belt
Belt extends from 1.3m to -1.3m
Bow and Stern are protective decks.
TDS :
The ship has no TDS,
relying on it's small size, high manueverability via electric drive, and really shallow draft.
Engines:
25% Oil-sprayed Coal, or wood.
75% Oil-fired Steam
0.1 knot indicates aux diesel
Reserve : 15t
AD :
19t FC
25t NF - Aft Con searchlight tower, etc.
0t SR Radio
10t SR Radio for Spotting
25t Hulesmeyer
10t Squadron Plot Room
OD
5t paravanes
20t - Scout Floatplane in "Q"
5t - Gunpowder catapult
2t "Y" DC throwers
8t DC
10t - Mine rails
HAW
2t - CO2 Compressor AC
32t- Marine Section
HBW
24t - 4 bow torpedo tubes, 4 torpedoes 21" x 3t
15t - Enhanced Hydrophone
10t - Sonar
50t - Turbogenerators
I mean the speed says corvette, but the armor and guns say 'I can take on some light cruisers'. Pretty stout for a 'DE'.
AGB for Parthian.
Coastal Colonial Cruiser a little too slow for Byzantium.
Byzantium need 24kts min.
However, a good ship & a good harbor defender.
;)
Quote from: Kaiser Kirk on November 27, 2022, 09:14:59 PM
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on November 27, 2022, 07:22:12 PM
I'd forgotten about the appearance of sonar and will have to factor it into construction in 2/24...
You could just double down on ASW harpoons instead !
It's not a bad idea at all. My guys can practice on whales during peacetime.
Solid gunboat, slow but good punch. Similar to the Japanese Surabayas, which proved quite handy recently.
I've been looking at gunboats for a while, and have a broad range of designs.
That one just meets the criteria well, and should be a very very good fire support vessel.
165mm direct fire, and 163mm HOW combined with spotters on the ground or air
should be a very effective mix for any rebels or small unit battles.
The type of scenario Rocky's writing about, hunting River pirates - also would be great for.
Anyhow, one of the fun part of design comments is the challenge to explore fixing deficiencies.
Jefgte noted the low speed precludes working with the battleline. For him 24knts. for me 23knts.
I have some other 23/26/28 knot gunboats, but not with this Misc Wt and gun layout.
So I worked the ship to see what it "costs" to have that 'close escort' capability
while keeping everything else or improving it.
50% more tonnage.
Maybe 51-52%, as I had to scrape the design down.
Still, I added another 2-gun 165mm mounting....
...But lost the very shallow draft.
Which bums me out. Wanted ~10feet for rivers, plus
standard Torpedo settings were more 3.5-4m + , to avoid wave troughs and broaching while still less than cruiser hulls.
...still can't (generally) use them in sea state 6+ or so (5?) due to that issue...not to mention destroyers have issues then.
Obviously the Brits hit Bismarck and Scharnhorst in bad seas, so it's not an absolute.
Though they may have just put the running depth at closer to 7m, knowing they were hitting BBs.
Likewise Subs *can* hit a shallow draft, just adjust the torpedo settings, but that takes knowing you're shooting at a shallow draft...
...but I digress.
and belatedly, the faster..and somewhat heavier armed...and deeper....version of the Sibari gunboat
Sibari IIC, Parthian Gunboat laid down 1925
Displacement:
3,000 t light; 3,248 t standard; 3,486 t normal; 3,677 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(355.82 ft / 351.05 ft) x 49.21 ft x (12.80 / 13.35 ft)
(108.45 m / 107.00 m) x 15.00 m x (3.90 / 4.07 m)
Armament:
6 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 266 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
1 x 2-gun mount on centreline forward
2 - 6.42" / 163 mm 20.0 cal guns - 154.32lbs / 70.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mount, 1925 Model
1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, aft deck centre
1 raised mount
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2 row quad mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,222 lbs / 554 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 228.18 ft / 69.55 m 11.15 ft / 3.40 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.33" / 110 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 3.54" / 90 mm
2nd: 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm
3rd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
4th: 0.12" / 3 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.38" / 35 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.38" / 35 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 3.94" / 100 mm, Aft 1.38" / 35 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 15,840 shp / 11,816 Kw = 23.10 kts
Range 4,930nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 428 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
226 - 294
Cost:
£0.866 million / $3.465 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 245 tons, 7.0 %
- Guns: 245 tons, 7.0 %
Armour: 834 tons, 23.9 %
- Belts: 428 tons, 12.3 %
- Armament: 69 tons, 2.0 %
- Armour Deck: 310 tons, 8.9 %
- Conning Towers: 26 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 525 tons, 15.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 988 tons, 28.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 486 tons, 13.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 408 tons, 11.7 %
- Hull below water: 183 tons
- Hull void weights: 35 tons
- Hull above water: 40 tons
- On freeboard deck: 45 tons
- Above deck: 105 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,713 lbs / 1,684 Kg = 27.1 x 6.5 " / 165 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 14.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.552 / 0.558
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.13 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.74 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 20.67 ft / 6.30 m, 18.21 ft / 5.55 m
- Forward deck: 31.00 %, 18.21 ft / 5.55 m, 15.75 ft / 4.80 m
- Aft deck: 34.00 %, 7.87 ft / 2.40 m, 7.87 ft / 2.40 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 7.87 ft / 2.40 m, 7.87 ft / 2.40 m
- Average freeboard: 12.96 ft / 3.95 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.4 %
Waterplane Area: 12,079 Square feet or 1,122 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 66 lbs/sq ft or 322 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.70
- Longitudinal: 1.38
- Overall: 0.75
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Intended to replace the aged Dolphin gunboats, the Porpoise was given speed sufficient to work around the battleline.
As a gunboat, it can operate in fairly shallow water,
and act as a patrol vessel.
As a Close Escort it would serve as an intermediate screen against MTBs and DDs, while also being equipped to detect and prosecute ASW attacks.
Against attacking destroyers, the powerful 165mm battery is expected to wreck havok. While the light armor is expected to preserve the firepower and floatation of the vessel.
Any offensive role would be at night, possibly as a follow up to an earlier attack. The Hulesmeyer device has not prooved an effective early warning system, but is viewed as promising for night time formation steaming.
165mm forward, single 163mm aft.
1 3
A (B) [a] Y
2 4
The armor is meant to defeat QF weapons as might be found on destroyers or smaller cruisers. To allow substantial engine room, an armor deck is used, at the 2.3m level, leaving only 1 deck level unarmored.
A reversion to underwater torpedo tubes sees 2 fitted in the bow, using submarine technology. These are foreward of the main bulkhead, and are proctected by the forward armored deck.
Misc Wt
35 - Reserve
AD
25t - FC
25t - Searchlight Tower Aft (Night Fighting)
25t - LR Radio
0t - SR Radio
10t - Dedicated Air/Spotting SR Radio
20t - Squadron / FireSupport Plot Room
OD
20t : Scout Floatplane
5t : Gunpowder Cat
5t : MSW Paravanes
1t : ASW Paravanes
2t : 2 'y' DC throwers
12t : 48 x 280kg DC
HAW
3t : CO2 compressor A/C
5t : Extra Fire Fighting
32t : Marine Squad
HBW
15t : Enhanced Hydrophone station
10t : Basic Sonar
18t : 2 UTT 21" Bow, 6 torps
132t : Turboelectric Drive
10t : Batteries
Decks :
4.8m : Weather Deck
2.4m : Armor Deck - top of main belt
-0.1m : 1st deck
-1.0 m : bottom main belt
-3.4m : Engineering deck
-3.9 m : Keel,
continuing the need to redesign destroyers to include Sonar,
the Palang class of 'Corvettes' aka 'Oceanic Destroyers'...aka the Parthians aren't sure how to categorize 1500 ton destroyers... when a decade ago the type was 500-750tons.
Ship naming has long been harder than expected due to
modern Persian script being Arabic, and finding "english" phonetic versions of Persian words has proven hard, I wind up with a mix of Old, Middle and Modern.
But the Destroyer series are named for predators.
Sher - Lion
Babr- Tiger
Palang - Leopard
Vakharz - Wolf
If I can, for these Wolf II and Leopard II classes I will try to find some suitable modifier like "Snow" for "Snow Leopard"
Or heck maybe Wolf II will be "Warg"...
This is an evolution of the Palang (Leopard) design,
boosting gun power while retaining the other elements.
Ultimately this sacrifices the good seakeeping,
but fits in one more 120mm guns, and better provisions for night fighting.
The 15tons reserve miscellaneous weight also gives some room for expansion and rearming of the design, whether with larger torpedoes, more DCs, a reworked armament or other.
The main battery is aligned in a pair of
two-gun mounts in A and X, with a superimposed "Y"
addressing a perceived deficiency vs. some foriegn designs
In "B" is a howitzer firing blunt nosed shells to allow forward engagement of submarines. For shore bombardment support,additional HE rounds can be stored in the 120mm mag.
Amidships is an elevated platform between the torpedo tubes, arranged en echelon are the two pairs of 57mm AA. This allows good sky arcs, and good engagement on the opposite broadside
For/aft, Paired twin GAST 15mm
are mounted to allow engagement of any plane seeking to strafe the length of the ship. These can also bear on the beam.
All guns are given bulletproof 1/4" (6mm) spray shields for strafing protection.
The Leopard / Palang Class has long range, which geared turbines will extend.
They could be "better" by pushing L:B and BC, but for the open Pacific I want a hull that doesn't push the limits to hard.
Range :
Central to this class is very long range.
6580nm + 10% for geared = 7238nm
which is sufficient to accompany the fleet in Pacific operations.
Quote
Palang II, Parthian Corvette laid down 1924
Displacement:
1,500 t light; 1,584 t standard; 1,865 t normal; 2,090 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(392.94 ft / 387.14 ft) x 36.75 ft x (10.93 / 11.81 ft)
(119.77 m / 118.00 m) x 11.20 m x (3.33 / 3.60 m)
Armament:
5 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 220 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
1 raised mount aft
1 - 4.65" / 118 mm 21.0 cal gun - 59.52lbs / 27.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1924 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
1 raised mount
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 350 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides forward
2 raised mounts
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 2,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
2 x 2 row quad mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 362 lbs / 164 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
2nd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
3rd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
4th: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 33,578 shp / 25,049 Kw = 31.85 kts
Range 6,600nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 506 tons
Complement:
141 - 184
Cost:
£0.613 million / $2.450 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 54 tons, 2.9 %
- Guns: 54 tons, 2.9 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.2 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 935 tons, 50.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 425 tons, 22.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 365 tons, 19.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 83 tons, 4.4 %
- Hull below water: 25 tons
- Hull void weights: 15 tons
- Hull above water: 2 tons
- On freeboard deck: 30 tons
- Above deck: 11 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
524 lbs / 238 Kg = 9.9 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.43
Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 10.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.23
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.420 / 0.435
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.54 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.68 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 21.65 ft / 6.60 m, 19.03 ft / 5.80 m
- Forward deck: 26.00 %, 19.03 ft / 5.80 m, 16.73 ft / 5.10 m
- Aft deck: 39.00 %, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m
- Average freeboard: 13.27 ft / 4.05 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 172.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.0 %
Waterplane Area: 8,869 Square feet or 824 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 76 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 31 lbs/sq ft or 152 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.89
- Overall: 0.53
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
15T - Construction reserve
AD:
5.5t - FC
0t - SR Radio
5.5t - NF Gear
OD:
2t - Lt. MS Paravanes
18t - 2TT3 21" Torpedoes
1t - DC "Y" thrower
1t - ASW Paravanes
0t - 2 stern rails
8t - Depth charges (32x 280kg)
HAW
1.5t - CO2 Air Compressor AC
HBW
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
10t - Sonar
Edit : swapped the 118 'casement' to Deck, which doesn't change the Comp or composite.
Toyed with and verified that removing the Howitzer and installing a 6th 120L43 in that spot is possible,
and would just need 0.4t more fire control.
While I have refurbished the old Whale class Fleet supply vessels, they will
eventually need replacement.
The Hakma is viewed as a possible replacement.
Designed prior to the Mayan war as a series of potential vessels,
Intended to be fast enough to be hard for submarines to intercept,
while a light TDS and deep bulges are hoped to at least limit torpedo damage.
It's still Aux built, so it won't take hits well... but gives it a chance.
The provisions for an anchorage net and defensive fighters seemed like
a cautious allocation for resources, but will allow distant anchorages to
be screened.
Hakma C, Parthian Fleet Supply Vessel/ Tender laid down 1924
Displacement:
14,992 t light; 15,357 t standard; 17,170 t normal; 18,621 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(456.36 ft / 456.36 ft) x 95.14 ft x (21.33 / 22.85 ft)
(139.10 m / 139.10 m) x 29.00 m x (6.50 / 6.97 m)
Armament:
2 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 51.50lbs / 23.36kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 2,500 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
2 x 2 row quad mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 157 lbs / 71 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Ends: Unarmoured
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
0.98" / 25 mm 273.82 ft / 83.46 m 20.47 ft / 6.24 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 68.90 ft / 21.00 m
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 3 shafts, 19,538 shp / 14,576 Kw = 19.00 kts
Range 7,484nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,264 tons
Complement:
749 - 974
Cost:
£1.927 million / $7.707 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 32 tons, 0.2 %
- Guns: 32 tons, 0.2 %
Armour: 204 tons, 1.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 204 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 644 tons, 3.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,952 tons, 23.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,178 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 10,160 tons, 59.2 %
- Hull below water: 5,706 tons
- Hull void weights: 60 tons
- Hull above water: 3,040 tons
- On freeboard deck: 1,292 tons
- Above deck: 62 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
31,408 lbs / 14,246 Kg = 595.7 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 5.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.97
Metacentric height 13.6 ft / 4.2 m
Roll period: 10.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.76
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.649 / 0.657
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.80 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m
- Forward deck: 32.50 %, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
- Aft deck: 27.50 %, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m
- Average freeboard: 17.72 ft / 5.40 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122.0 %
Waterplane Area: 33,232 Square feet or 3,087 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 146 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 95 lbs/sq ft or 462 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.44
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Aux build
14,992 - 24months, $0.937/HY
Intended to be difficult for opposing submarine or air patrols to damage or sink.
Designed to Cruise at 16 knots, which means a submarine that is not dead ahead will have difficulties intercepting, being forced to run on the surface at maximum speed for a prolonged period. This will only be doable in calm seas and will make them potentially visible.
This requires 7600 SHP.
Optimally, they would like this to be 1/3 of the SHP, which would put the ship at over 21.3kts, which is more 'expensive' than they want.
However, turbines are quite forgiving of long use at good power, so they put the desired cruise as less than 2/3rds power, so 18 knots.
There is a desire to be able to sprint faster than the most modern subs, so 19 knots is chosen.
Draft is kept less than 7.5m to allow use in more areas.
Total Weaponry : 17,170 normal *.02 = 343
Torpedo Bulkhead : 204t
Guns & Mounts : 32t
Fighter Floatplanes : 100t
336t total, 7 spare
Total Fleet Supply : 6,500 tons, for 65,000 tons shipping
Void : 60 tons resv
AD
4t FC -1918
25t LR Radio
10t SR Radio - dedicated AC channels.
23t Cage Mast amidships- Floatplane control top
OD
40t : 2x Scout Floatplanes
100+10t : 4x Fighter floatplanes + 2x Gunpowder Cats.
30t Hanger structure
12t : Additional Cranes
100t : VIP Cabins
200t : Cabins
300t : Surgical wards
300t : 2x 75 ton 'Net Tender' tug.
200t: 2x 50t motorize lighters
HAW
3000t- Fleet Supply
15t CO2 Compressor AC
25t Extra Fire Suppresion
HBW
20t additional aviation stores
3500t - Fleet Supply
25t Extra Pumps
161t - Turboelectic Generators
2000t - Anchorage Torpedo nets and floats (see below)
Stored in holds
2000 tons - Anchorage Defense Netting & booms.
10% in booms (hollow floats) = 1800 in netting
Wt : 5lbs / Sq. Foot = 806,400 sq.ft netting
Double Wt for Anchorage/Harbor Def = 10lbs/Sq. Ft = 403,200 sq. ft netting
Depth 15m = 49.2ft
403,200 / 49.2 = 8,195 ft / 2,498m of netting.
Sufficient for a circle 397m in radius / 795m in diameter.
(weight from Wiki Desc of Bullivant nets, 1894+=5lbs/sq ft
Nice. I like.
Definitely concur with the float-fighter idea.
Peering ahead to HY2, 1924,
With the Carrier tech complete, I could immediately throw down a carrier...but
I'm thinking instead I should refit my Experimental carrier to 'trial' new ideas from the tech,
and so lay the carrier and flight deck cruisers in HY1 1925 ,
...which means I need to plan on that BP....
Anyhow that leads me to cruisers
The Artesmia II class is causing concern due to the lack of armor,
So the previously posted Artesmia III will get built
The Royal Neissans are on trials and are well liked. Good speed, good armor, and a heavy 12 gun broadside of the new 180L47.
The concerns are with night combat and close in fighting, even power assisted the two-gun 180mm aren't as fast as hoped.
Unlike the Byzantines, they do not mount a anti-surface secondary, relying on the main guns.
The other problem is that 12 Royal Neissans would take 96,000 tons, while you can build 16 of the Moulek class instead.
For cruisers, hull count matters. 144 gun broadside vs. 96 guns matters also, though due to 2-gun vs 1-gun ROF penalty,
its ~130 vs 96. So 30% more firepower and 30% fewer hulls.
One area the Mouleks have an advantage is in the 'Chase', as the wing 180mm allow 6 guns to fire forward,
which means their broadside and forward arc have the same # guns bearing.
This means in the closing portions of the engagement the Mouleks would still have 96 guns, but the Royal Neissans would fall to 48.
Also, the single mount & hoist of the Mouleks is under that 70t point where historical comments become unsatisfied about mount rotation speed.
Which should help in night / fog / rain or small combatant battles.
Moulek II, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1924
Displacement:
6,000 t light; 6,337 t standard; 7,356 t normal; 8,171 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(523.33 ft / 516.73 ft) x 50.30 ft x (20.77 / 22.45 ft)
(159.51 m / 157.50 m) x 15.33 m x (6.33 / 6.84 m)
Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1924 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
2 raised mounts
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1924 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
8 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,580 lbs / 717 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 351.38 ft / 107.10 m 10.17 ft / 3.10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.17" / 55 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 2.17" / 55 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.91" / 150 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 56,123 shp / 41,868 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 10,560nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,835 tons
Complement:
396 - 516
Cost:
£1.933 million / $7.732 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 438 tons, 6.0 %
- Guns: 438 tons, 6.0 %
Armour: 1,574 tons, 21.4 %
- Belts: 711 tons, 9.7 %
- Armament: 152 tons, 2.1 %
- Armour Deck: 663 tons, 9.0 %
- Conning Tower: 48 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 1,849 tons, 25.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,840 tons, 25.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,355 tons, 18.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 299 tons, 4.1 %
- Hull below water: 27 tons
- Hull void weights: 60 tons
- Hull above water: 6 tons
- On freeboard deck: 87 tons
- Above deck: 119 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
5,928 lbs / 2,689 Kg = 33.3 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 14.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.477 / 0.490
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.27 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.73 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Forward deck: 36.00 %, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Aft deck: 32.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarter deck: 12.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 17.98 ft / 5.48 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.5 %
Waterplane Area: 16,963 Square feet or 1,576 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 69 lbs/sq ft or 339 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.70
- Longitudinal: 1.28
- Overall: 0.75
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The Moulek and Pouseki cruisers have prooved successful in service, but cruiser design
has advanced somewhat, with the incorporation of homogenous armor as part of the structure,
and improvements in engines.
While the new Royal Neissans are more powerful, they take 1/3rd more tonnage each,
and there is a perceived need for hulls.
The Moulek II
Fits the newer 180L47 gun in single mount and hoist fittings.
The Forecastle has been extended
with "Y" superimposed like HMS Tiger,
overlooking both the torpedoes and X.
The 180mm guns are laid out as below
Giving 6 guns broadside, 6 forward, and 4 aft.
C (E) TT TT
A (B) FP (Y) X
D (F) TT TT
The Belt and Con armor has been increased to 110mm,
but the gun armor is kept lighter, to keep rotating weight under 70tons.
With 8 seperate guns, the possibility of loosing one does not seem calamatous.
Torpedoes are the new (to Parthia) heavy weight 21" 4t torps in hull galleries with rolldown shutters
An armored deck with sloped external main belt is adopted.
3/(cos 12) = 3.06 = 3.1
Misc. Weight :
60t: Construction Resv
25t : LR Radio
44t : FC
25t : Searchlight tower (NF)
25t : Hulesmeyer
52t : 4T3 21" TT + 4 roll down shutters (4t)
5t : Paravanes
20t : Midships Scout Floatplane
5t : Gunpowder Cat
5t : hanger
HAW
6t : CO2 Compressor AC
HBW
6t : Extra Pumps
6t : 5t extra AvGas, 1t Doublewall tank
15t : Enhanced Hydrophones
Decks :
+6.50 : Forecastle deck
+4.00 : Battery deck/ weather deck
+2.00 : top armor belt
+1.50 : Armored main deck
-1.00 : 1st deck, , bottom protective deck
-1.50 : bottom armor belt
-4.50 : Engineering
-5.41 : Keel, double bottom
Another try at the same vessel,
adding 1x 180L47 per broadside with a pair of aft wing guns
That does means 16x Moulek IIC would have 112 gun broadside
vs. the effective 130 of the Royal Neissan
This "costs" 5mm of deck armor and 10mm belt armor.
Both these discard the protective deck in favor of the armor deck,
which allows the thicker sloped belts, but that just compensates for the loss
of the protective deck behind the belt armor.
On the other hand, the chance of shells landing over the belt onto the slope at long range
is eliminated.
The 50mm deck is proof against cruiser-class splinters, but the 55mm should work against the old Byzantine 250mm guns.
The Parthians believe in that size as an excellent long range gun for killing cruisers, and expect others to follow,
so they would like 55-60mm. B
BUT...its not like the Parthian naval designers would know exactly what's needed for game mechanice.
Plus if one starts considering the mild-steel decks...which you should...those numbers change.
So 50mm should be seen as "good enough"
Moulek IIC, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1924
Displacement:
6,000 t light; 6,379 t standard; 7,356 t normal; 8,138 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(523.33 ft / 516.73 ft) x 50.30 ft x (20.77 / 22.38 ft)
(159.51 m / 157.50 m) x 15.33 m x (6.33 / 6.82 m)
Armament:
10 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1924 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
6 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
2 raised mounts
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1924 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
8 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,955 lbs / 887 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.53" / 115 mm 361.71 ft / 110.25 m 10.17 ft / 3.10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.92" / 125 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 56,123 shp / 41,868 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 10,110nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,759 tons
Complement:
396 - 516
Cost:
£2.046 million / $8.182 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 540 tons, 7.3 %
- Guns: 540 tons, 7.3 %
Armour: 1,505 tons, 20.5 %
- Belts: 673 tons, 9.1 %
- Armament: 186 tons, 2.5 %
- Armour Deck: 606 tons, 8.2 %
- Conning Tower: 40 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,849 tons, 25.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,828 tons, 24.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,355 tons, 18.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 279 tons, 3.8 %
- Hull below water: 27 tons
- Hull void weights: 30 tons
- Hull above water: 6 tons
- On freeboard deck: 87 tons
- Above deck: 129 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
5,323 lbs / 2,415 Kg = 29.9 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 14.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.93
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.477 / 0.490
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.27 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.73 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Forward deck: 36.00 %, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Aft deck: 34.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarter deck: 10.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 17.98 ft / 5.48 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 107.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 141.5 %
Waterplane Area: 16,963 Square feet or 1,576 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 71 lbs/sq ft or 346 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.70
- Longitudinal: 1.28
- Overall: 0.75
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
The Moulek IIC
Fits the newer 180L47 gun in single mount and hoist fittings.
The Forecastle has been extended
with "Y" superimposed like HMS Tiger,
overlooking both the torpedoes and X.
The 180mm guns are laid out as below
Giving 7 guns broadside, 6 forward, and 4-6 aft.
C (E) G
A (B) (Y) X
D (F) H
The Belt and Con armor has been increased to 110mm,
but the gun armor is kept lighter, to keep rotating weight under 70tons.
With 10 seperate guns, the possibility of loosing one does not seem calamatous.
Torpedoes are the new (to Parthia) heavy weight 21" 4t torps
in hull galleries with rolldown shutter.s
Armor Belt is outsloped 12deg
3 /cos (12) = 3.06 = 3.1
Misc. Weight :
30t: Construction Resv
25t : LR Radio
54t : FC
25t : Searchlight tower (NF)
25t : Hulesmeyer
52t : 4T3 21" TT + 4 roll down shutters (4t)
5t : Paravanes
20t : Midships Scout Floatplane
5t : Gunpowder Cat
5t : hanger
HAW
6t : CO2 Compressor AC
HBW
6t : Extra Pumps
6t : 5t extra AvGas, 1t Doublewall tank
15t : Enhanced Hydrophones
Decks :
+6.50 : Forecastle deck
+4.00 : Battery deck/ weather deck
+1.50 : Main Armor deck, top main belt
-1.00 : 1st deck, , bottom protective deck
-1.50 : bottom armor belt
-4.50 : Engineering
-5.41 : Keel, double bottom
and not a deal breaker
Originally I planned on laying down a carrier-type vessel immediately after finishing the tech.
...which would be 1924.5.
But, considering the 'newness' of the tech, and the Armored-cruiser level of tonnage involved,
for HY1924.5, a more cautious approach seems reasonable.
I think a 'refurbishment' of the experimental carrier....just storyline fluff, but basically
installing versions of the new concepts on the operational ship.
That shoves my planned ship back to 1925....not horrible.
And now for the long rambling blathering I wrote in July :
In 1924 the Parthian Navy views aircraft as a complication in several ways
A) In Daylight good weather with minimal atmospheric iterference
- Aerial reconnaisane has potential to
- Spotting planes unopposed could give one fleet a decisive range advantage
B) Even minimal fighter presence should make steady observation of scout plantss difficult.
- Launching Floatplane fighter scouts could ward off aerial reconnaisance planes.
- With Availability rates, at least two should be embarked with each cruiser squadron.
C) Radio jamming may also be effective as a defense, but can not be planned on.
D) Substantial Aerial Scouting and Fleet Defense may be conducted by floatplanes embarked on warships.
E) Aerial Threats
- The primary direct aerial threat consists of large groups of multi-engine craft taking off from land based airstrips or seaplanes from a large anchorage, flying against a relatively fixed target. If torpedo armed, or bomb armed, multiple hits could be obstained simply from proper pattern arrangement.
- The secondary threat is single craft, likely attempting to fly along the long axis of the warship, strafing and dropping light bombs.
F) Rapid fire AA guns can destroy planes that stay the course, forcing a disruption and scattering in the pattern.
- Strafing planes will be at short range, and their structures vulnerable to massed 15mm MG fire.
- The 57 and 90mm guns will provide short and medium range with high rate of fire. At this time it is unclear which is superior, it is expected the greater lethal burst radius of the 90mm may compensate for the higher ROF of the 57mm, but the 90mm can engage further out, which may be more effective at disruption. Indeed, there is a line of thought the morale effect of the larger and more noticable 90mm bursts may be crucial.
- Heavy 165 and 180 guns are unlikely to have sufficient numbers and rate of fire to be useful seperately, but could be useful in a long range barrage role to disrupt flights of torpedo bombers.
G) Primary long range disruption and defence is best served by a fighter ability.
- Sentry ships or scout planes aloft would need to give alert of incoming planes. Stationed
- Fighters prepared and on standby would be rapidly launched and fly to engage.
- The time for fighters to launch and get to position to engage will likely seriously limit the number of fighters that can effectively launch and engage an attack. The limiting factor will be the number of launching platforms.
Theories of launch rates very. Practical experience is limited.
At the current time, it is conjectured that between 4 and 8 fighters could be launched with time to effectively disrupt or kill attackers, and harry them after the attack.
One outstanding question is the servicability rates of aircraft embarked on warships. A conservative number of 50% is considered reasonable, though if land rates were matched, 75% or more could be viable.
Plans are for Aircraft to fly in 4 plane Lances, 16 plane troops and 64 plane squadrons.
For the first vessel, a 16 plane troop, at a planned 75% servicibility
would take 20 aircraft. Of these, 2 x Fighter Lances, and 2x Scout Lances will be initially embarked. One spare per lance would be embarked. If fighter launch rates promise to get more than 8 fighters into combat, the number of scouts can be reduced.
And then the ship - A Flight Deck Cruiser
There's a 12500 ton version that goes 30knots, but 500tons for +1 knot seems reasonable,
and then they can keep up with the Zemaka class ACs.
Quote
Avio Aristabara, Parthian Fighter Carrier laid down 1925
Displacement:
13,000 t light; 13,560 t standard; 14,623 t normal; 15,474 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(556.98 ft / 551.18 ft) x 66.70 ft x (28.71 / 29.94 ft)
(169.77 m / 168.00 m) x 20.33 m x (8.75 / 9.13 m)
Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 198.42lbs / 90.00kg shells, 161 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1925 Model
1 x 4-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward
1 x 4-gun mount on centreline, forward deck aft
16 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1925 Model
16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
16 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2 row quad mounts on sides amidships
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,549 lbs / 1,156 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 358.27 ft / 109.20 m 9.25 ft / 2.82 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.38" / 35 mm, Aft 1.38" / 35 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 98,913 shp / 73,789 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 7,230nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,914 tons
Complement:
664 - 864
Cost:
£3.578 million / $14.311 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 596 tons, 4.1 %
- Guns: 596 tons, 4.1 %
Armour: 1,670 tons, 11.4 %
- Belts: 546 tons, 3.7 %
- Armament: 242 tons, 1.7 %
- Armour Deck: 847 tons, 5.8 %
- Conning Towers: 36 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 3,211 tons, 22.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,132 tons, 35.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,624 tons, 11.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2,391 tons, 16.4 %
- Hull below water: 483 tons
- Hull void weights: 55 tons
- Hull above water: 38 tons
- On freeboard deck: 1,670 tons
- Above deck: 145 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,531 lbs / 9,313 Kg = 115.4 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.93
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.485 / 0.492
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.26 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 37
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.10 ft / 7.65 m, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m, 20.18 ft / 6.15 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 36.58 ft / 11.15 m, 36.58 ft / 11.15 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 36.58 ft / 11.15 m, 36.58 ft / 11.15 m
- Average freeboard: 29.44 ft / 8.97 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 205.0 %
Waterplane Area: 24,165 Square feet or 2,245 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 110 lbs/sq ft or 538 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.84
- Longitudinal: 4.64
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
Aristabara = spear bearer
Avajam = The blinder
Jatar = Smiter of
Avajan = Smite down/ Slay down
Avajana =Destroy
Patiyajata = To wage Battle
Nav = Ship
Naviya = Fleet
Framatar = Lord of
Maska = Pontoon/ Floating bridge
ayasta = To take over/ conquer / appropriate
Vazarka =Mighty
Hamarama = Battle
Plans are for Aircraft to fly in 4 plane Lances, 16 plane troops and 64 plane squadrons.
For the first vessel, a 16 plane troop, at a planned 75% servicibility
would take 20 aircraft. Of these, 2 x Fighter Lances, and 2x Scout Lances will be initially embarked. One spare per lance would be embarked. If fighter launch rates promise to get more than 8 fighters into combat, the number of scouts can be reduced.
Gun Deck : 6.15m
Single Hanger : +11 = 17.15m
Aircraft : 20 x 80t = 1600t
Needed Waterplane = 1100 m2 x2 for Flight deck cruiser penalty : 2200
A and B turrets are on the same level, but widely spaced. The bow curves up to much for dead on forward fire. However, and moderate ranges, the barrel elevation necessary will allow both to bear directly forward
The "Fore" and "Aft" Cons are really twin islands sited on either side of the forward edge of the flight deck, which cantilevers out over B turret.
A flying bridge arching over the flight deck connects them
for an H shape.
The guns are viewed as useful in bad weather, or night, or if
the planes are out of commision, or if they have already been launched.
Casements mounted along the ships side provide destroyer defense.
57mm guns arae mounted in sponsons along the edge of the flight deck
Quad15mm are mounted high up the con towers, on the seaward side.
The main belt covers from +1.15 to - 1.6 and is outsloped 12 degrees outboard.
2.75/cos(12) = 2.82
Flight Deck : The main flight deck takes 84m (275ft) with a cantilevered forward section overhanging 'C' turret. For the USN, a clear flight deck of at least 234ft was desired.
Misc Wt
Resv : 90
AD
60t FC
25t LR Radio
0t SR Radio
10t SR radio - dedicated A/C control
25t Hulesmeyer device
25t Night fighting searchlights and gear
OD
1600t 20x Fixed Wheel Aircraft
20t x2 catapults
50t x2 elevators 25t. One aft, one at rear of Cats
HAW
25t Additional Fire Suppression
13t CO2 Air Compressor AC
HBW
168t Torpedo Nets
15t Enhanced Hydro
10t Sonar
160t Additional AVGAS (~59733gal avgas, prob 50,000 after tanks)
80t Additional Munitions
25t Additional Fire Suppresion
25t Additional pumps
11.15 Flight Deck
6.15m Weather Deck / Hanger Deck
3.65m Battery Deck (Casements)
1.15m Armor Deck, Top Main belt.
- 1.35m
-1.6m Bottom main belt
- 3.85m
- 6.35m Engineering
-7.23m Doublebottom.
Interesting approach. Why include sonar and hydrophones?
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on December 17, 2022, 07:12:32 PM
Interesting approach. Why include sonar and hydrophones?
Hydrophones because when the ship is at anchor, or lower speed, it can pick up screws quite a ways away.
Which should both guard against nighttime cruiser attacks, MTB/DD charges and subs.
You see them on a fair number of my vessels beyond the dedicated ASW for that reason
- more ears, and surface raider detection.
...not sure why I put sonar on it.
Quite possibly as the Parthians have a new toy, but aren't sure where it will be useful,
and so are putting it on lots of things to find out.
Kinda like the war tubas that sprouted on my designs for a little bit then went away.
As a historical curiosity, I know some US Carriers were fitted with Sonar for some reason....poking about it looks like some members of the Essex class and then the Kitty Hawk class.
That may have been in the back of my mind as well,
but I really am inclined to think I kinda just threw it on as 'new shiny , see if its useful' that I mentioned.
And now for something that I really really don't expect to build
I'm currently trying to hold my battleship size to 39000 tons,
which is 8 HY of building, though I'd prefer about 34-35,000 tons.
That # hulls vs. capability tradeoff means
that once I have the hull, engines, and armor, it's usually
fairly cheap to creep the tonnage up 1/5th and fit more guns.
So the 39,000 ship is far better armed than the 34,000.
I was looking at a design series of mid-1920s ships
over 10 designs the Asi/Imulhu series evolved as a low-mid 40s ship.
Larger than I want, but part of that was exploring upping the fleet speed
to 23-26 knots.
I was musing about the 'max battleship' and what that would 'cost'.
The 'Mastodon' was the result.
and the answer is... it costs "way to much".
The largest guns in current Parthian development are a 390mm and a 435mm,
which bracket the 16" & 16.5" seen in foreign navies... so I fitted the larger.
Speed I pushed to 30knots, very unParthian.
Armor is suitably Parthian.
Mastodon, Parthian Battleship laid down 1926
Displacement:
56,000 t light; 59,415 t standard; 62,487 t normal; 64,944 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(853.02 ft / 846.46 ft) x 114.83 ft (Bulges 124.67 ft) x (31.50 / 32.64 ft)
(260.00 m / 258.00 m) x 35.00 m (Bulges 38.00 m) x (9.60 / 9.95 m)
Armament:
9 - 17.13" / 435 mm 47.0 cal guns - 3,185.68lbs / 1,445.00kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1926 Model
3 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 4.72" / 120 mm 44.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1926 Model
8 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts - superfiring
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
20 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 900 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1926 Model
10 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
24 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
12 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 29,908 lbs / 13,566 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.3" / 389 mm 550.20 ft / 167.70 m 17.06 ft / 5.20 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -20.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
2.99" / 76 mm 550.20 ft / 167.70 m 30.64 ft / 9.34 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 85.30 ft / 26.00 m
- Hull Bulges:
0.35" / 9 mm 564.30 ft / 172.00 m 22.64 ft / 6.90 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 19.7" / 500 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 16.1" / 410 mm
2nd: 2.17" / 55 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm
3rd: 0.51" / 13 mm - -
4th: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 6.50" / 165 mm
Forecastle: 0.00" / 0 mm Quarter deck: 5.31" / 135 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.72" / 120 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 200,359 shp / 149,467 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,220nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,529 tons
Complement:
1,975 - 2,568
Cost:
£18.178 million / $72.711 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 5,064 tons, 8.1 %
- Guns: 5,064 tons, 8.1 %
Armour: 21,139 tons, 33.8 %
- Belts: 6,183 tons, 9.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,867 tons, 3.0 %
- Bulges: 167 tons, 0.3 %
- Armament: 4,645 tons, 7.4 %
- Armour Deck: 8,117 tons, 13.0 %
- Conning Tower: 160 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 6,414 tons, 10.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 22,395 tons, 35.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,487 tons, 10.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 988 tons, 1.6 %
- Hull below water: 56 tons
- Bulge void weights: 150 tons
- Hull above water: 81 tons
- On freeboard deck: 70 tons
- Above deck: 631 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
84,489 lbs / 38,324 Kg = 33.6 x 17.1 " / 435 mm shells or 14.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 7.4 ft / 2.3 m
Roll period: 19.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.658 / 0.660
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.79 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.09 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 28.87 ft / 8.80 m, 28.87 ft / 8.80 m
- Forward deck: 24.00 %, 28.87 ft / 8.80 m, 28.87 ft / 8.80 m
- Aft deck: 41.00 %, 20.67 ft / 6.30 m, 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 20.67 ft / 6.30 m, 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
- Average freeboard: 24.28 ft / 7.40 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 171.4 %
Waterplane Area: 75,007 Square feet or 6,968 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 239 lbs/sq ft or 1,165 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.13
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Armor Scheme:
Only 1 deck level aft and 2 deck levels forward are unprotected, giving a great reserve of bouyancy.
The 130mm main deck caps the belt armor system and is meant to stop shells at all reasonable ranges. This is backed by a substantial splinter deck.
An exterior 75mm decapping plate also serves to defeat HE shells and bombs.
Underwater, below the exterior belt, is the exterior bulge.
The interior belt is sloped at 20 degrees and is 330mm above the waterline, tapering once 1m below the waterline down to 230mmm.
The TDS rises behind the main belt, sealing to the bottom of the splinter deck. The TDS, with it's 3x 19mm bulkheads is expected to be splinter proof on it's own. The TDS also provides a firm base of structural support for the main belt. The Fact the innermost bulkhealds rises behind the belt gives a flooding limit even if the belt is pushed in.
The splinter deck is a 35mm protective deck meant to stop high order splinters from either the belt or deck from penetrating to the vitals.
Belt Armor Math:
The exterior shell is a 75mm homogeneous decapping plate from -2.6 to +2.6m high.
That is 5.2 x 75 = 390
The interior belt is inclined outwards at 20degrees and tapers
Starting at 330mm above water from +2.6m to -1m below waterline, then
From 1m to -3m it tapers to 230mm.
The Main Belt Math :
1188 = (2.6 - -1) x 330mm
460 = (-1 to -3) x 230mm
100 = (-1 to -3) x 1/2 x (330-230)
= 1738
cos 20
= 1633.1857
= 1633.19
+390 for the Decapping plate
=2023.2
divided over 5.2m = 389 average thickness
The entire inner belt is outsloped
The Bulge goes to the bottom of the exterior plate.
The TDS rises to 0.2m above WL, sealing to the bottom of the splinter deck.
Decks
5.0 Weather Deck - unarmored
2.6 Battery Deck, 130mm Armor
0.2 Top Protective Splinter Deck, 35mm Armor, Top TDS.
-2.3 Bottom edge Splinter Deck
-2.6 Bottom Main Belt.
-5.8
-8.8 Engineering
-9.5 Keel, Double Bottom
Misc Wt
150t Resv
546t FC
25 LR Radio
0 SR Radio
10 Air SR Radio
25 Hulesmeyer
25 Night Fight tower
5t Paravanes
40t 2x Scout
10t 2x CAT
25t Ext Fire Suppression
25t Ext Fire Suppression
56t Climate Control
56t Enhanced Pumps
Tillman Battleship for Parthians.
;)
Just as a trivia note : Originally for the Mastodon I wanted a 12x435, which would certainly be a scary vessel . For the same size I could have a slower 23-26knt version, but even at a 40m beam the recoil on a 12x435 is too high. SS gives a warning over 1.0, and while I suppose you could just commit to not firing all at once, I like to keep under that level....which given how many barrels I fit can sometimes be a design consideration.
The core of this musing is ... how valuable is additional speed if it drives your seakeeping under 1.0 ?
I've been of the opinion that when sea state means wave height > ave freeboard, then that
seakeeping should enter into things, and limit speed.
To babble onwards :
The next vessels to be rebuilt are to be the first of my All-big-gun ships.
The Gilgamesh and Enki classes will fit the 333L43 guns and boost deck armor, so that
they will be fairly doughty 2nd line battleships.
The Asdar class of ACs can also use updating.
The Byzantines have a wide range of ACs, which are countered by the 8 ships of the Parthian Asdar and Zemaka classes, each with 8x 255mm. The Zemaka introduced the 255L47, a much more powerful gun/shell combination than the old 255L50, and with the more modern turrets should fire faster.
The cheapest refurbishment of the Asdar would be just regunning with the more modern 255L47, 120L43 and AA.
That would cost $5.76 and 1.55bp.....very affordable.
So it's the opportunity cost of re-engining.
Cost to also Re-engine is the new engine and fuel
Old engine : 3233 (currently 27knots)
Old bunkerage : 3148 (currently 8800nm @ 12knts)
1925 engines
28knots geared steam turbines : 2405 with seakeeping 1.01
16 knots x 8000nm : 3147t
So that would be +$6.38, +2.41 BP to get 28 knots.....
1925 engines
29knots geared steam turbines : 2772, but seakeeping drops to 0.87
16 knots x 8000nm : 3147t
So that costs +$7.12, +2.77bp
The advantage is that matches the faster Byzantine ACs and gives 2 knots over the older ones, ...in decent weather.
These both free up large amounts of tonnage which could allow more deck armor
+20mm laminated on main protective deck : +$0.42 , +0.42bp
This boosts the effective citadel deck armor to 82mm, very very respectable for an AC.
Conclusion :
I am very tempted to just regun the ships. Perhaps come back and reengine later.
The 28 knots does not seem worthwhile.
...I could do 28 knots and add a TDS... but that is even more expensive
The 29 knots does, but I'm curious how others view that seakeeping (0.93) on a ship with 5.72m average freeboard.
What is the group thoughts on sub-par seakeeping at top speed ?
Should it be heavily penalized always, or just during bad weather ?
From my reading, most of the time in combat, actual speed was kept a couple knots below top, to allow +/- speed to maintain station.
I am inclined to think the additional speed is worth the cost and helps keep the ship relevant longer.
But since I am not sure I can fit that in my schedule, just do the guns right now.
It might be a situational utility to have the extra knot - you retain a bit more speed if you lose some machinery to damage or accident, and you've got the extra speed if giving battle in optimal steaming conditions. Her seakeeping at lower speeds should still be fine otherwise.
However, yes, it is a pricey addition and might depend on whether the rest of the ship is worth the effort.
Quote...The 29 knots does, but I'm curious how others view that seakeeping (0.93) on a ship with 5.72m average freeboard...
=>Indicate your seakeeping speed at 1.00.
Byzance raises the forward freeboard by half a deck (1.2m max) like trawlers. This helps maintain better seakeeping.
"Bulwark" (Pavois in french)
Quote from: Jefgte on December 28, 2022, 10:27:24 AM
Byzance raises the forward freeboard by half a deck (1.2m max) like trawlers. This helps maintain better seakeeping.
Generally I figure that 1.5m is the limit for the bow if you want to fire at 0 deflection over the bow, as ~1.5m seems to be the height the trunnions on foredeck turrets compared to sailors.
So you will see most Parthian ships rise that distance.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on December 28, 2022, 06:25:25 AM
However, yes, it is a pricey addition and might depend on whether the rest of the ship is worth the effort.
The Byzantines make the primary Opfor, and continue to build vessels in this class.
I look at the other player navies as well, and against many, they would be a mismatch that would require much,much bigger vessels to be committed to hunting down.
If I can neutralize a battlecruiser for months on end, that has some value. Further, with the 255L47, I can kill some of those BCs at close-medium range (night/weather) or even long (deck).
So the
Asdar are still very decent vessels, well armed and armored, and I think more worth the investment than the earlier ACs - who's role is reduced to territorial, or battleline screen.
Longer term, it seems like the 29knot refurbishment is worthwhile.
But that cost in $/BP for 4 vessels will be difficult to fit in.
Short term, I think rebuilding the
Gilgamesh class in 1925 is more important.
The Mayan war highlights that need.
I can probably figure out a way to pay for simple regunning of these ships in 1924.5,
and then re-engine & uparmor them in 1926/27.
..now to figure out how to pay for this...
Refitted in 1922, the Parthians seek to Regun the vessels in 1924.5
This is a full on refurbishment, with a reconfiguration of the superstructure and adjust the trim. This also allows replacing the old ventelation with new CO2 Compressor AC and adding a scout plane.
The main and secondary batteries get replaced by newer models.
The ancient 60mm Anti-boat guns were replaced in 1922, but the new 57mm are augmented by 15mm AAMGs.
Original Wts255 Gun + Mount : 265+620 = 885
255mm mag : 321
120mm mag (both) : 59+88 = 147
57mm mag : 22
Refurbished weights255mm Gun + Mount = 245 + 573 = 818
255mm mag : 320 = Same (has to be same or less)
Turret Armor = 225
120mm Gun+Mount : 56+116 = 172
120mm mag : 59+88 = Same
Gun Armor : 21+79 = 100
57mm mag : same
new gun shields : 1.5
15mm
15mm guns & mounts : 6.3+15 = 21.3
new gun shields : 3.9
new mag : 5.1
Misc wieghts :
Resv : 15t
AD
New Fire Control : 102 (-8)
OD
- old ventilation (-75)
+ CO2 Compressor AC : 15t
+ Scout floatplane : 20t
+2nd Gunpower Cat : 5t
+ Enlarged Hangers : (-5) 10t
+paravanes : 5t
Subtotals :
Refurb : 20% of original : 14.747 * 20% = 2.9494
A. Guns & Mounts : 1011.3 =1012
B. Armor : 330.4 + misc wt 157 = 488
C. Hull, equip : 0
D. NF Misc Wt/mags. : 5
Cost :
Base : $2.9494
A: $2.024, 1.012bp
B: $0.488, 0.488bp
C: $
D: $0.0025
subTotal : $5.4639, 1.5bp
Total : $5.46, 1.5bp
Quote
Asbara BR24, Parthian Armored Cruiser laid down 1908, refitted 1922, refurbished 1924
Displacement:
14,744 t light; 15,584 t standard; 17,333 t normal; 18,733 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(583.99 ft / 577.43 ft) x 68.90 ft x (26.25 / 27.96 ft)
(178.00 m / 176.00 m) x 21.00 m x (8.00 / 8.52 m)
Armament:
8 - 10.04" / 255 mm 47.0 cal guns - 599.66lbs / 272.00kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 240 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1912 Model
8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 240 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1912 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1918 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 5,981 lbs / 2,713 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.68" / 195 mm 340.68 ft / 103.84 m 12.17 ft / 3.71 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 236.71 ft / 72.15 m 12.17 ft / 3.71 m
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 307.87 ft / 93.84 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 345.47 ft / 105.30 m 18.86 ft / 5.75 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.46" / 215 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 7.68" / 195 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.31" / 8 mm -
3rd: 3.94" / 100 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3.35" / 85 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.57" / 40 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 7.68" / 195 mm, Aft 3.94" / 100 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 64,013 shp / 47,754 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 8,800nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,148 tons
Complement:
754 - 981
Cost:
£1.433 million / $5.731 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,012 tons, 5.8 %
- Guns: 1,012 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 4,645 tons, 26.8 %
- Belts: 1,917 tons, 11.1 %
- Armament: 1,034 tons, 6.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,526 tons, 8.8 %
- Conning Towers: 168 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 3,233 tons, 18.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,365 tons, 30.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,590 tons, 14.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 490 tons, 2.8 %
- Hull below water: 178 tons
- Hull void weights: 10 tons
- Hull above water: 40 tons
- On freeboard deck: 85 tons
- Above deck: 177 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,760 lbs / 8,509 Kg = 37.1 x 10.0 " / 255 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 15.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.74
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.581 / 0.589
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.38 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 26.00 %, 26.44 ft / 8.06 m, 24.08 ft / 7.34 m
- Forward deck: 23.00 %, 24.08 ft / 7.34 m, 21.69 ft / 6.61 m
- Aft deck: 36.00 %, 13.48 ft / 4.11 m, 13.48 ft / 4.11 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.48 ft / 4.11 m, 15.12 ft / 4.61 m
- Average freeboard: 18.77 ft / 5.72 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 123.8 %
Waterplane Area: 28,584 Square feet or 2,656 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 132 lbs/sq ft or 642 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.42
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Misc Weight : as refitted 1922
Const Resv : 60y
AD
110t Fire Control 1918
25t LR Radio
25t Searchlight Tower (NF)
25t Hulesmeyer
OD
75t- Additional ventilation
25t - Armed Float Plane
5t - Gunpowder Cat
5t - Hanger structure amidships
HABW
40t - Torpedo flat on stern, above armor deck, 18" , 2 tubes each beam firing through ports.
HBW
178t - torpedo nets
Decks : Engineering spaces 4m high, other decks 2.5m
+6.61m Forecastle deck
+4.11m Weather Deck, Top of upper belt (covers B to Y), top 25mm upper armored deck
+2.11m Top of Main belt, protects slopes of deck from diving shells.
+1.61m 3rd, Armor Deck, Crown of 60mm protective deck
-0.89m 2nd deck. lower edge of protective deck, bottom of main belt
-1.60m bottom of main belt
-3.39m 1st Deck
peeking forward to 1925, the refurbishment of the Gilgamesh class comes out to $15.64, 5.9bp / vessel.
I could go for the full reconstruction to add a torpedo defense system, which would take sacrificing the turbo-electric drive and existing end belts. There could be deep internal bulges and 38mm bulkhead, which would boost the Torpedo resistance to 8.1 (from 5). The 'opportunity' cost is another $1 and 2.3 BP.
That would also open the ability to remove "Q" and fit more engines and deck armor with the savings.
I may price that out later.
In the meantime, the proposed refurbishment winds up with 10x 333mm firing overweight 605kg shells,
a waterline Belt+Deck combo of ~487mm, and a vertical deck of ~106mm.
That should make it very very servicable as a '2nd rate' battleship
1925 refurbishment of the Gilgamesh class.
Subtotal Costs :
A : Guns and Machinery
main : 584+1239 : 1823
second : 71+268 : 339
tertiary : 54+110 : 164
quint : 0.7+.53 : 1.23
Machinery : 900t
B: Armor + Func wt
Gun armor - main : 696
Sec :97
Tert : 110
Quad : 1.5
Quin : 3.9
+Deck (below) : 931
func Misc : 830
C: Trim only, no hull change
D: Fuel Ammo, stores
Magazines (unchanged or less tons) : 1107
Fuel : 2723
Subtotals :
Base cost : 20% of 22990/1000 = $4.598
A: 2327.23+900 = 3227.23 /1000 = $(3.23*2), 3.23bp = $ 6.46, 3.23bp
B : 1835.5639 armor + 830 = 2665.5639 /1000 = $2.67 , 2.67bp
C : --
D: $(1107+2723)/2000 = $1.915
Total : $15.643, 5.9bp
New armanents 345->333, 165 ->130
bulletproof shields for 57mm , new 15mm
+Armor
35mm box around magazines + machinery :179
Laminate +30mm main deck (70/100/70) : 752
total : 931
Leave upper deck at 35mm
Box included in main deck armorwt.
Effective main belt + PD : 420 + (((65+30*.8)*1.5)/2) = 487mm
Effective verticle : 65+(30*.8)+(35/2) = 106.5mm
35mm box around mag & machinery is backing both of these.
Reserve : 10t
Misc Wt :
AD
235 FC 1918
25 LR radio
25 Hulesmeyer
25 Searchlight Tower (NF)
OD
5 Paravanes
40 2x Scoutfloatplanes
5 Gunpowder Cat
10 Hanger
HAW
23 CO2 Compressor AC
25 Additional pumps
HBW
162 Torpedo Nets
225 Turbogenerators
25t Additional Pumps
Quote
Gilgamesh R1925, Parthian Dreadnaught laid down 1906 (Engine 1925)
Displacement:
22,941 t light; 24,570 t standard; 26,083 t normal; 27,293 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(538.06 ft / 531.50 ft) x 88.58 ft (Bulges 98.43 ft) x (29.53 / 30.77 ft)
(164.00 m / 162.00 m) x 27.00 m (Bulges 30.00 m) x (9.00 / 9.38 m)
Armament:
10 - 13.11" / 333 mm 43.0 cal guns - 1,333.80lbs / 605.00kg shells, 99 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
1 x Twin mount on centreline, forward deck aft
16 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 77.16lbs / 35.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1913 Model
8 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 77.16lbs / 35.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1913 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 500 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 15,580 lbs / 7,067 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 16.5" / 420 mm 345.47 ft / 105.30 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 3.94" / 100 mm 185.99 ft / 56.69 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Upper: 5.31" / 135 mm 312.66 ft / 95.30 m 11.98 ft / 3.65 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Hull Bulges:
0.47" / 12 mm 345.47 ft / 105.30 m 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.5" / 420 mm 7.09" / 180 mm 15.0" / 380 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm
3rd: 5.31" / 135 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 5.28" / 134 mm
Forecastle: 2.36" / 60 mm Quarter deck: 2.36" / 60 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 16.54" / 420 mm, Aft 2.95" / 75 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 27,734 shp / 20,690 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 7,100nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,723 tons
Complement:
1,026 - 1,334
Cost:
£2.081 million / $8.324 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,348 tons, 9.0 %
- Guns: 2,348 tons, 9.0 %
Armour: 10,205 tons, 39.1 %
- Belts: 3,637 tons, 13.9 %
- Bulges: 149 tons, 0.6 %
- Armament: 3,036 tons, 11.6 %
- Armour Deck: 3,014 tons, 11.6 %
- Conning Towers: 369 tons, 1.4 %
Machinery: 900 tons, 3.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,647 tons, 33.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,142 tons, 12.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 840 tons, 3.2 %
- Hull below water: 412 tons
- Bulge void weights: 10 tons
- Hull above water: 48 tons
- On freeboard deck: 60 tons
- Above deck: 310 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
42,425 lbs / 19,244 Kg = 37.7 x 13.1 " / 333 mm shells or 5.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 5.5 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 17.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.54
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.591 / 0.593
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.40 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.05 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.39 ft / 7.74 m, 22.54 ft / 6.87 m
- Forward deck: 43.00 %, 22.54 ft / 6.87 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Aft deck: 22.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 18.19 ft / 5.54 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 55.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113.2 %
Waterplane Area: 34,146 Square feet or 3,172 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 194 lbs/sq ft or 948 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.99
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Misc. Weight : 1922 BR
1t Const Resv.
AD
243t 1918 FC
25t LR Radio
5t Basic Night Fighting
OD
115t Additional Ventilation and evaporative cooling
5t Paravanes
HBW
162t - torpedo nets
40t - 4x TT, 2 each beam, 20 x 18" Torpedoes
+ 6.0 forecastle, Top of upperbelt for 66%, 30mm protective deck
+3.5 weather, Top of upper belt for 33%
+1.5 Top of Main Belt
+1.0 3rd , Crown of 65mm protective deck
-1.5 2nd , bottom of belt, edge of protective deck, top of bulge
-4.0 1st
-8.56 Engineering Deck
While I explored the Tillman concept above, I got to wondering what the 'bottom' of the price range looks like for me.
While others have their 15-16" guns, the Parthian 365L50 is an excellent gun.
Part of that is due to our rules work - the fixed ME for guns in certain classes doesn't change if you're at the upper vs. lower end.
Meanwhile the 365L50 came after the 1.2 weight shells, making it
nearly as good as some of the larger weapons.
So I can use that.
Real world, the reason for 10 guns was to allow two alternating 5 gun broadsides, with allowance for 1 gun to miss the cycle. Giving the 4 gun ladder.
As turrets got better, and that bonus gun not being needed all the time, you see adoption of 8 gun broadsides.
I still need a decent secondary, but I have enough escort vessels that I think I can skip the cruiser-level 165mm, and go with the 130mm.
I like a hexagon pattern of 2-gun mounts for that, allowing 6 to bear fore/aft and 8 each broadside.
Combining an inclined belt with a heavy armor deck ala Nelson, and it becomes a tough nut with substantial protected floatation.
The 20knot Parthian battleline means shorter ships, smaller engines, and plenty of below decks room.
Toss in electric drive and the ships will adapt to damage well.
An exterior bulge, and then a deep internal hull TDS gives the ship a massive torpedo absorption on paper.
The TDS rises above the waterline to meet the bottom of the Armordeck, also providing splinter protection behind the main belt.
Because the Parthians are paranoid, they will still hang torpedo nets off the ships.
I actually discontinued them ~1909, but with the Caicos war, added them back.
Now with the Mayans, instead of them failing 1/3 of the time like they should have, each roll succeeded,
and made them look better than they are.
Overall, compared to the
Kalifern (building) class, which is ~8000t, aka 1 cruiser, more expensive,
she has half the guns. You can buy 4
Kaliferns for 5 of these, with 64guns vs. 40guns.
Quote
Gilgamesh...modern, Parthian Dreadnaught laid down 1925
Displacement:
30,350 t light; 32,402 t standard; 34,707 t normal; 36,551 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(557.74 ft / 551.18 ft) x 108.27 ft (Bulges 114.83 ft) x (29.53 / 30.94 ft)
(170.00 m / 168.00 m) x 33.00 m (Bulges 35.00 m) x (9.00 / 9.43 m)
Armament:
8 - 14.37" / 365 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,884.95lbs / 855.00kg shells, 131 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1925 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 77.16lbs / 35.00kg shells, 275 per gun
Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1925 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
12 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.19lbs / 2.81kg shells, 900 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, majority forward
6 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 16,397 lbs / 7,438 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.6" / 345 mm 345.47 ft / 105.30 m 21.49 ft / 6.55 m
Ends: 1.38" / 35 mm 185.99 ft / 56.69 m 12.01 ft / 3.66 m
19.72 ft / 6.01 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
2.24" / 57 mm 345.47 ft / 105.30 m 40.88 ft / 12.46 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 62.34 ft / 19.00 m
- Hull Bulges:
0.35" / 9 mm 345.47 ft / 105.30 m 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.5" / 420 mm 7.09" / 180 mm 15.0" / 380 mm
2nd: 3.94" / 100 mm 2.56" / 65 mm 2.56" / 65 mm
3rd: 1.38" / 35 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 5.91" / 150 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 2.95" / 75 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 14.96" / 380 mm, Aft 2.95" / 75 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 34,120 shp / 25,454 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 9,000nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,149 tons
Complement:
1,270 - 1,652
Cost:
£8.665 million / $34.660 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,267 tons, 9.4 %
- Guns: 3,267 tons, 9.4 %
Armour: 14,047 tons, 40.5 %
- Belts: 4,779 tons, 13.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,173 tons, 3.4 %
- Bulges: 97 tons, 0.4 %
- Armament: 3,139 tons, 9.0 %
- Armour Deck: 4,450 tons, 12.8 %
- Conning Towers: 411 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 1,108 tons, 3.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,617 tons, 30.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,358 tons, 12.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,311 tons, 3.8 %
- Hull below water: 501 tons
- Bulge void weights: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 62 tons
- On freeboard deck: 246 tons
- Above deck: 402 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
60,667 lbs / 27,518 Kg = 40.9 x 14.4 " / 365 mm shells or 14.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 8.3 ft / 2.5 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.25
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.650 / 0.653
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.80 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 17.50 %, 25.92 ft / 7.90 m, 23.46 ft / 7.15 m
- Forward deck: 27.50 %, 23.46 ft / 7.15 m, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Aft deck: 37.50 %, 12.80 ft / 3.90 m, 12.80 ft / 3.90 m
- Quarter deck: 17.50 %, 12.80 ft / 3.90 m, 12.80 ft / 3.90 m
- Average freeboard: 17.43 ft / 5.31 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.1 %
Waterplane Area: 45,715 Square feet or 4,247 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 204 lbs/sq ft or 996 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.57
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Armor Belt : Covers from +3.9m to -2.5m
For +3.9 to -1.0 is full thickness 350mm
From -1.0 to -2.5 tapers to 310mm
Outsloping
Total : 6.4 / cos (12) = 6.55
Upper : (6.4 - 1.5)/ cos (12) = 5.01
Tapered : 1.5/cos (12) = 1.57
This is 1 rectangle 310mm * 6.55m = 2030500 mm3
+ 1 rectangle 40mm x (5.01) = 200400mm3
+ 1 triangle
b*1/2 * h = 40mm/2 x 1.57m = 31400mm3
Total : 2,262,300mm3
Over 6.55 m (6,550 mm)
= 345.39
Bow and stern have the traditional protective deck,
but with +35mm slopes, for 70/110 respectively
Outsloped 12degrees
6.4/cos(12) = 6.5429 = 6.55
100t - Reserve
AD
327t - FC
25t - NF searchlight tower
25t - Hulesmeyer 10km proximity detector
25t - LR Radio
OD
5t Paravanes
100t - Admiral Quarters
31t - Extra fire ext
Quarterdeck floatplanes launch & recovery
50t - 2x 25t Fighter Float
40t - 2x 20t Scout Float
10t - 2x Gunpowder cat
10t - underdeck hanger space
HAW
31t - CO2 Compressor AC
31t - Extra Fire Ext
HBW
31t - Extra Pumps
20t - Doublewall Av Gas tanks
5t- Av Gas fire Ext
168t - Torpedo nets
277t - Turboelectric generators
6.4m - Forecastle Deck
3.9m - Weather Deck, Armor Deck, top main belt, top TDS
1.4m - Main Deck
-1.1m - 2nd deck
-2.5 - Bottom main belt
-3.6m - 1st deck
-7.6m - Engineering
-8.6m - Double bottom
-9.0m - Keel
You have nearly Musashi survability.
;)
But Musashi didn't survive...
While I don't care for the speed, it's certainly a capable and affordable battleship in all other respects.
The speed is rooted in a pre-game decision to explore guns / armor > speed
Likewise, while I personally don't like quads, I decided to put them on Parthian ships..
I could do this as a pair of quads I guess.
Anyhow, while I settled on that speed to start, I've struggled to decide
on moving to a faster speed, and internally justifying it.
The concept is that SLOC are the key, and as long as I'm faster than a merchant,
and there's strategic points, the other side will eventually have to fight me.
The fact the Byzantines keep building 21 knot ships also means my biggest neighbor
is in the same speed range.
With others.. what I give up is choice of range when weather allows that...
so I try to make those all bad choices.
For the same tonnage I should have either more, or tougher ships.
Though I will admit that I expect once combat has really started,
ships on both sides will get damaged, and fleet speeds will plummet.
Looking at history, when the hull gets opened by shells or torpedoes,
I keep seeing damaged ships restricted to the high teens for speed,
in order to keep internal bulkheads from collapsing. That doesn't translate
well to in-game damage, but is a consideration for me- speed seems to
be the first thing ships loose when damaged. Fleets fight at a couple
knots below max speed, so underwater damage should not disrupt my
battleline.
The major flaw is that is when I send ships off to territories, or need to split them up,
I loose the conceptual ability to disengage.
That is why the Stormbringer pair becomes the response force, at 26knts not
blazing, but can beat anything that can catch them.
Still, each generation of ships seems faster than the last, which makes older
ships almost guaranteed to be slower, even if they didn't start that way.
It's a conundrum.
But I try to keep my cruisers 'close' in speeds, and faster than other players Heavies (mostly),
while keeping the battleline the same. The exception are the Stormbringer pair
which are meant to either counter Jefgte's BCs, or give my scout cruisers 'heavies' to fall back on
OR serve directly in the battleline.
I expected game play to move me off that 20knt speed base,
and I've been toying with jumping to 23 knots, slightly faster than the Byzantine line,
or even moving up to 26, but both would be after the Kaliferns complete.
I may even cease Dreadnaughts to focus on Carriers or 'Large Armored Cruisers'... we shall see
But the wars so far ..
skirmish - Wino-Iberian : Speed relevant, but more 'new' vs 'obsolete'.
Sino-Japanese I : Near Big Fleet slugfest, speed irrelevant.
Sino-Japanese II : Not enough to tell
Caicos : Big Fleet slugfest, speed irrelevant
Mayan : Speed mattered at Martinique, gross battleline mismatch.
The rest...battleline speed didn't matter much.
Granted it was a bit of an odd war, where there wasn't more battleline: battleline conflict,
The Mayans achieved their goals in the Atlantic theater, while being tremendously outnumbered in the Pacific.
...and the Parthians don't know about the details of the various Mayan sorties.
One take home is that cruising speed is where you spend most of your time, and cruising range and time on station
matter. I've already been moving to more range to
Quote...The fact the Byzantines keep building 21 knot ships also means my biggest neighbor
is in the same speed range...
Concepts do not change.
1 => Battleships with their firepower work like a steamroller.
2 => If you catch me, I sink you.
(Hood catches Tennessee, Tennessee sinks Hood)
Going back to carrier considerations.
In 1924.5 I'll be refurbishing my 1918-tech Experimental Carrier (converted 1922 from a torpedo boat carrier)
to a 1922-tech carrier.
..don't think I need an SS for that, as it repurposes existing hull weight.
In 1925, I can lay down a couple of those 13,500 flight deck cruisers.
Goal is to provide fighters to deal with enemy recon/spotting, and then launch some of my own.
Sometime after that...I'll be looking at true carrier. Still likely pretty modest.
It's still early, so heavily armed and armored will continue to be the theme.
Very much a work in progress...
Desert Wind, Parthian Carrier laid down 1926
Displacement:
27,000 t light; 27,968 t standard; 31,633 t normal; 34,564 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(583.99 ft / 577.43 ft) x 108.27 ft x (27.33 / 29.48 ft)
(178.00 m / 176.00 m) x 33.00 m x (8.33 / 8.98 m)
Armament:
16 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1926 Model
16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
16 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
24 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 x 2 row quad mounts on sides, forward deck centre
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,248 lbs / 1,473 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.36" / 60 mm 375.33 ft / 114.40 m 12.01 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 1.38" / 35 mm 202.07 ft / 61.59 m 12.01 ft / 3.66 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
2.24" / 57 mm 375.33 ft / 114.40 m 28.18 ft / 8.59 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 62.34 ft / 19.00 m
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.36" / 60 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 2.36" / 60 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.91" / 150 mm, Aft 5.91" / 150 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 161,515 shp / 120,490 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,364nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,597 tons
Complement:
1,185 - 1,541
Cost:
£6.327 million / $25.307 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 519 tons, 1.6 %
- Guns: 519 tons, 1.6 %
Armour: 3,885 tons, 12.3 %
- Belts: 605 tons, 1.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 878 tons, 2.8 %
- Armament: 118 tons, 0.4 %
- Armour Deck: 2,028 tons, 6.4 %
- Conning Towers: 255 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 5,170 tons, 16.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,724 tons, 30.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,632 tons, 14.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 7,703 tons, 24.4 %
- Hull below water: 1,893 tons
- Hull void weights: 200 tons
- Hull above water: 108 tons
- On freeboard deck: 5,280 tons
- Above deck: 222 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
80,244 lbs / 36,398 Kg = 450.9 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 11.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.40
Metacentric height 10.1 ft / 3.1 m
Roll period: 14.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.08
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.51
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low forecastle,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.648 / 0.656
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.33 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 26.57 ft / 8.10 m, 26.57 ft / 8.10 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 42.98 ft / 13.10 m, 42.98 ft / 13.10 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 42.98 ft / 13.10 m, 42.98 ft / 13.10 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 42.98 ft / 13.10 m, 42.98 ft / 13.10 m
- Average freeboard: 39.70 ft / 12.10 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 115.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 330.2 %
Waterplane Area: 47,804 Square feet or 4,441 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 135 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 136 lbs/sq ft or 664 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.85
- Longitudinal: 4.05
- Overall: 1.00
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Resv
AD
52t - FC
50t - 2x LR Radio
30t - 3x SR Radio
25t - Hulesmeyer
25t - Night Fighting
40t - 2x 20t Squadron Plot Rooms.
OD
5280 - Airgroup, 66 total
HAW
27t - CO2 Compressor AC
54t - Fume extraction fans
27t - Additional Fire Ext
HBW
1269 Turbogenerators
200 Additional Av Gas dble wall tank
20t Additional Fix Ext for Av Gas
200 Additional Bombs/ Torps
28t Additional Pumps
176 Torpedo Net
Desired :
16 Fighters + 4 flying spares
16 Scouts + 4 flying spares
16 Strikers + 4 flying spares
---
+6 non flying spares
---
66 total
* 80t = 5280t
Double hanger : 3630m2
Single hanger : 4290m2
Decks
+13.1 Landing Deck
+10.6
+8.1 Flying Off Deck
+5.6
+3.10 Battery Deck
+0.60 Crown Protective Deck, Top TDS
-1.90 Bottom Protective Deck
-4.40 1st Deck
-6.90 Engineering
-7.99 Double Bottom
-8.33 Keel
It's a big carrier by 1920s standards. Belt may need some length added?
I'd agree that you don't need to sim the refurb. I'm doing some tweaking of armament in my ship, so I'll be posting one.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on January 04, 2023, 06:09:24 PM
It's a big carrier by 1920s standards. Belt may need some length added?
Weird on the belt, but I was trying different lengths.
I think it's "Too Big" actually.
I don't want to 'pay' that much.
This kinda takes guidance from Amagi,
so you see the heavy secondary.
The driving force for the big carriers seems to have been the availability of the battleship/cruiser hulls for conversion.
So that might not be reasonable here.
I could see the inspiration from the big BC conversions, and I like the description of the layout.
It's not to say you can't or shouldn't, just that outside the stock of big hulls for conversion, the early purpose-built stuff was smaller. Maybe this is something that becomes an obvious want after the flight-deck cruisers have been in service for a year or two.
I think you're right, it's not very evolutionary, and going up that big is a bit of a leap.
I think the Flight Deck Cruisers will fit the current need well, and are more affordable.
I can have one with each fleet and with the scouting groups.
The appeal of a strike carrier is a great way to slow down faster enemy ships, so the sledgehammer of the battleline can close. Its also a wide ranging threat against supply and amphibious vessels.
However, those Flight Deck Cruisers could be used to offload their fighters and load up torpedo bombers, to more flexibly provide that option.
So get the FDCs in service a little, and discover that it might be nice to have a strike carrier.
Plus I might have the next tech by that point and be able to fly off bigger groups.
The feedback from the first carriers does not justify building such large ships for 1925.
Byzantium budgeted 2 x 12 000t (max) carriers for 1925-1926.
Akagi-Lexington are not a good benchmark for our history, but
Furious, yes.
Quote...I can have one with each fleet and with the scouting groups...
I agree.
So taking another try at the 'Strike Carrier'.
Conceptually these are still 'Glorious' with the flying off deck, but with a twin island linked by a flying bridge.
Like the original idea for Hermes, the final crash barrier would be a net hung between.
Looking at Honsho and Hermes, they were both 25knots, and many of the battleship conversions were slow as well,
wind over deck does not demand high speed for these early carriers.
The design role I'm considering for this is a carrier to sit behind the battleline, and as scouting reports come in,
launch a fighter sweep followed by a flight of torpedo bombers.
Just one torpedo hit should .. 'adjust' the speed of enemy ships, helping solve the 'slow' part of the Parthian line.
Since the ship will have to turn with the wind, then catch up to the line, a higher cruise speed is given than
the line's.
Still a larger vessel than I wanted, I realized my push to build buffers into the air group
to account for planes out of service, and just the uncertainty of exact planning at this early time,
meant I was planning for an air group much much larger than what was intended as the combat loadout.
I also have a TDS, a protective deck with 100mm slopes and 60mm crown, a heavy secondary, etc.
Conceptually these are still 'Glorious' but with a twin island linked by a flying bridge.
Like the original idea for Hermes, the final crash barrier would be a net hung between.
More blathering in the notes section.
Quote
Desert Wind, Parthia Strike Carrier laid down 1926
Displacement:
15,500 t light; 16,115 t standard; 18,150 t normal; 19,778 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(524.93 ft / 518.37 ft) x 75.46 ft x (27.07 / 29.06 ft)
(160.00 m / 158.00 m) x 23.00 m x (8.25 / 8.86 m)
Armament:
12 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1926 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 150 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,968 lbs / 893 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.57" / 40 mm 336.94 ft / 102.70 m 12.01 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.50" / 38 mm 336.94 ft / 102.70 m 25.56 ft / 7.79 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 52.49 ft / 16.00 m
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.36" / 60 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 2.36" / 60 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 2.95" / 75 mm, Aft 2.95" / 75 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 83,148 shp / 62,028 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 9,066nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,663 tons
Complement:
781 - 1,016
Cost:
£3.461 million / $13.844 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 314 tons, 1.7 %
- Guns: 314 tons, 1.7 %
Armour: 2,079 tons, 11.5 %
- Belts: 276 tons, 1.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 477 tons, 2.6 %
- Armament: 25 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,214 tons, 6.7 %
- Conning Towers: 88 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,662 tons, 14.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,128 tons, 33.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,650 tons, 14.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 4,317 tons, 23.8 %
- Hull below water: 156 tons
- Hull void weights: 50 tons
- Hull above water: 1,984 tons
- On freeboard deck: 1,975 tons
- Above deck: 152 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
41,837 lbs / 18,977 Kg = 305.2 x 6.5 " / 165 mm shells or 5.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 15.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.20
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low forecastle,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.600 / 0.609
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.87 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.26 ft / 7.70 m, 25.26 ft / 7.70 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 41.67 ft / 12.70 m, 41.67 ft / 12.70 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 41.67 ft / 12.70 m, 41.67 ft / 12.70 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 41.67 ft / 12.70 m, 41.67 ft / 12.70 m
- Average freeboard: 38.39 ft / 11.70 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 290.7 %
Waterplane Area: 28,609 Square feet or 2,658 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 145 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 104 lbs/sq ft or 507 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.79
- Longitudinal: 8.12
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Intended to look like a twin-superstructure Glorious class.
Strike Carrier intended to wait for aerial scouting reports,
and launch first a fighter sweep, then a flight of torpedo bombers.
The Strike carrier is not a scouting unit, or fighter defense, but battle line support unit.
Airgroup : 4 planes per Talon, 16 planes per Flight, +1 flying spare/talon.
16 fighter, 25% flying spares = 20
16 torpedo bombers , 25% flying spares = 20
+2 / stored per flight : 4
"10% planning buffer" : 4
---
Airgroup of 32 planned
Provision for 48 planes
Room for growth/adjustments
48 * 80 = 3840t = 1920 OD/1920 HAW
48 * 55 (dbl hanger) = 2640m2 needed
12.0m deck height for double hanger.
Bow 5m below final deck for flying off deck.
12.7 & 7.5 used.
Featuring the Parthian 'H' shaped two-islands joined by a flying bridge.
Forward of this, planes can take off, or be catapulted with 2 deck catapults forward.
The 'final' crash barrier of a net can be strung between the superstructures, and an elevator is right behind them, allowing landing activities there.
The second elevator is at the 'rear' of the upper flight deck.
Two hangers are provided, with the roof of the 2nd the upper flight deck, and the roof of the first leading to the flying off deck.
This arrangement is expected to allow the ship to surge fighters if needed, while the heavier torpedo bombers will be spotted at the rear of the upper deck.
....one can presume going through the 'tunnel' of the H structure
will not be the happiest part of the take off run.
The main threat is expected to be either submarines, or surface raiders at night or in inclement weather. Surface raiders would be expected to be light high speed units.
The 100mm protective deck slopes & 60mm crown should defeat most shells from such, while the 165mm QF should be effective against such ships at closer ranges of bad weather or night.
Speed to support the battleline is 20 knots, or 26 for the faster Stormbringer class.
As she will have to steam with the wind, then catch up with the battleline, a higher cruise speed of 16knots is given.
An additional 2 knots moves the carrier into cruiser range, meaning that if caught by a surface raider, the ship can run for the battleline and force a long stern chase. But this would also take ~16,800 tons. Likewise, moving up to 165mm would
Misc Wt : *
Reserve : 50t
AD :
32t - FC
50t - LR Radios
20t - 3 SR Radios
25t - Hulesmeyer
25t - Searchlights (NF)
100t- Superstructure
OD :
1920 : 24 planes
5t : Paravanes
16t : Add Fire Ext
50t : 2 forward hydraulic catapults
HAW :
1920 : 24 planes
16t : CO2 compressor AC
32t : Forced exhaust fans.
16t : Add Fire Ext
50t : 2 forward hydraulic catapults
HBW :
50t : Additional Avgas 45t in 5t Double wall tank
10t : Additional Fire Suppresion Av Gas
80t : Additional Weapons stores
16t : Additional pumps.
*for misc weights, I use 1:1,000tons for many which should scale with the ship, and 25t for more fixed installations for which I really don't know.
This is an update of a 1918 update of a 1913 update of my 1890s Dragonfly river gunboat.
It's an recurring idea that I keep having and feel a need for, and fail to budget for.
Since Rocky was asking, I figured I'd share.
At it's core, it's a casement ironclad...updated.
Compared to a 1920s tank, it's well armored and heavily gunned.
A QF 57mm vs. a 1920s tank is a colossal mismatch, esp paired with
a stable fire control system.
Further, a vessel this size would be extremely hard to 'kill' with weapons intrinsic to a
infantry unit. Anti-tank weapons would make too small a hole for such a large vessel,
while artillery would lack the shell types, unless specially brought along.
Dragonfly II, Parthian Rivirine Gunboat laid down 1926
Displacement:
251 t light; 285 t standard; 291 t normal; 296 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(161.74 ft / 157.48 ft) x 26.25 ft x (4.00 / 4.06 ft)
(49.30 m / 48.00 m) x 8.00 m x (1.22 / 1.24 m)
Armament:
1 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal gun - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing gun in casemate mount, 1926 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck forward
1 - 4.65" / 118 mm 21.0 cal gun - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Breech loading gun in deck mount, 1926 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck aft
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1926 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1926 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mount, 1926 Model
1 x 2 row quad mount on centreline, forward deck aft
1 double raised mount
Weight of broadside 138 lbs / 63 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 0.79" / 20 mm 62.99 ft / 19.20 m 6.23 ft / 1.90 m
Ends: 0.59" / 15 mm 94.46 ft / 28.79 m 6.23 ft / 1.90 m
Upper: 0.79" / 20 mm 62.99 ft / 19.20 m 9.19 ft / 2.80 m
Main Belt covers 62 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.59" / 15 mm -
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.59" / 15 mm -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.31" / 8 mm -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm -
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 0.39" / 10 mm
Forecastle: 0.31" / 8 mm Quarter deck: 0.31" / 8 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 0.79" / 20 mm, Aft 0.79" / 20 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 138 shp / 103 Kw = 9.00 kts
Range 2,000nm at 6.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 11 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
34 - 45
Cost:
£0.052 million / $0.209 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 19 tons, 6.4 %
- Guns: 19 tons, 6.4 %
Armour: 100 tons, 34.2 %
- Belts: 51 tons, 17.7 %
- Armament: 26 tons, 8.9 %
- Armour Deck: 21 tons, 7.1 %
- Conning Towers: 1 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 4 tons, 1.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 120 tons, 41.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 40 tons, 13.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 8 tons, 2.8 %
- Hull below water: 1 tons
- Hull void weights: 3 tons
- On freeboard deck: 2 tons
- Above deck: 2 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,950 lbs / 885 Kg = 37.0 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.53
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 9.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.40
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low forecastle, low quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.616 / 0.618
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 12.55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 28 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 36
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 30.00 %, 4.59 ft / 1.40 m, 4.59 ft / 1.40 m
- Forward deck: 17.00 %, 12.80 ft / 3.90 m, 12.80 ft / 3.90 m
- Aft deck: 23.00 %, 12.80 ft / 3.90 m, 12.80 ft / 3.90 m
- Quarter deck: 30.00 %, 4.59 ft / 1.40 m, 4.59 ft / 1.40 m
- Average freeboard: 7.87 ft / 2.40 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 33.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 220.0 %
Waterplane Area: 3,068 Square feet or 285 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 170 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 158 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.68
- Longitudinal: 1.87
- Overall: 0.75
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Warning: No. of mounts must equal No. of gun - 4th battery
The original Dragonfly class are Parthian vessels for riverine and lake use.
They are essentially center casement armor clads with heavier deck guns in "beak" casements at both ends.
The raised center casement serves as an amored deckhouse and 2nd deck, considerably boosting habitable volume.
The forward 120L43 is a conventional naval rifle in a 'beak' casement
The 118L21 is a howitzer, in an aft 'beak' casement
The twin 15mm guns are GAST twinned MGs in roof cupolas at the corners.
The four 57mm QF are mounted at the midsection of the casement, with cutouts fore/aft. This can fire fore/aft, or engage targets on the beam. While lacking the punch of the main guns, they allow suppressive fire totally under armor, with a small HE charge in the shell.
There is a Quad AA featuring two GAST 15mms, in an electically driven bulletproof mount on the casement roof.
The raised amidships superstructure is covered by 20mm armor and slanted back at 25 degrees (for a Cos25 O/H = 2.8m), this is expected to defeat all small arms.
The main belt covers from +1.4 to -0.5m with 20mm armor, protecting the engines and magazines. The ends are more lightly protected.
An armored pilot house also is the site of the rangefinder. There is an aft con for backing manuevers.
Fuel is a mix of Coal/wood w/ oil spray burning, and Oil burning
This allows the vessel to steam on local sources.
The vessel relies on an turbo-electric drive,
this allows both the power for the various mounts
and differential power to propellors for better manueverability.
Range is for 14 days.
Miscellaneous weights :
Resv : 3t
AD
2t - FC
0t - SR Radio
OD
0.25 t - CO2 Compressor AC
2t - power assist all guns
HBW
1 - Turboelectric Generator
Decks :
+3.9 Casement
+1.4 1st Deck
-1.15 Engineering deck.
While this tries to see how small I can manage a reasonable motor gunboat.
....I think it's decently tiny
MGB-1, Pathian Motor Gun Boat I laid down 1926
Displacement:
60 t light; 73 t standard; 74 t normal; 75 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(64.34 ft / 62.34 ft) x 15.58 ft x (4.10 / 4.16 ft)
(19.61 m / 19.00 m) x 4.75 m x (1.25 / 1.27 m)
Armament:
1 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal gun - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 190 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1926 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
1 - 4.65" / 118 mm 21.0 cal gun - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 190 per gun
Quick firing gun in deck mount, 1926 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 80 lbs / 36 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 0.59" / 15 mm 40.52 ft / 12.35 m 9.19 ft / 2.80 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.31" / 8 mm -
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.31" / 8 mm -
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 0.39" / 10 mm
Forecastle: 0.31" / 8 mm Quarter deck: 0.39" / 10 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 0.59" / 15 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 118 shp / 88 Kw = 10.00 kts
Range 400nm at 8.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3 tons (90% coal)
Complement:
12 - 16
Cost:
£0.018 million / $0.073 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 9 tons, 12.3 %
- Guns: 9 tons, 12.3 %
Armour: 22 tons, 30.3 %
- Belts: 11 tons, 14.3 %
- Armament: 6 tons, 8.5 %
- Armour Deck: 5 tons, 7.3 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 4 tons, 5.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 21 tons, 29.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 14 tons, 18.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 3 tons, 4.1 %
- Hull below water: 1 tons
- Hull void weights: 1 tons
- Hull above water: 0 tons
- Above deck: 1 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
171 lbs / 78 Kg = 7.7 x 3.5 " / 90 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.61
Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 7.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 38 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.75
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.52
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.650 / 0.652
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 7.90 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 19
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 8.69 ft / 2.65 m, 7.55 ft / 2.30 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 7.55 ft / 2.30 m, 7.55 ft / 2.30 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 7.55 ft / 2.30 m, 7.55 ft / 2.30 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 7.55 ft / 2.30 m, 7.55 ft / 2.30 m
- Average freeboard: 7.64 ft / 2.33 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 65.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 89.1 %
Waterplane Area: 744 Square feet or 69 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 127 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 19 lbs/sq ft or 94 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.53
- Longitudinal: 17.82
- Overall: 0.75
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Cramped accommodation and workspace room
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
Intended as a Coastal/ Riverine gunboat
as an alternate to the 'Dragonfly' style casement vessel.
The advantage of the casement is all ammunition handling
can occur under armor, but above water, allowing
the draft to be very shallow.
For this version, the goal is to dispense with the
armored casement.
The desire is fore/aft gun basal ring gun mounts, where
shells can be safely fed from below decks via stairs
and crews handing shells up.
This also requires keeping shell weights down.
TDS defaults as 1.2m high,
which I take to mean Engineering is at that level,
while Keel is 1.26 - a very flat bottom.
For a 2.5m (8ft) deck height, that puts +1.3 as the minimum height,
but I like engineering to be at least 3.5m
so 2.3 is the Main deck.
Length is constrained to allow 2 to be constructed in a 50ft dock at once.
Armor :
Main belt is +2.3 to - 0.50
The Fore / Quarter deck are protective decks
while the citadel has the armor deck capping the belt.
Engineering :
8knots cruise ensures that even fast river currents can be easily over come.
This only takes 35shp.
10 knots is 88shp, or 250%.
Oil sprayed coal is relied on, as wood can be used in a pinch.
To allow maximum manuevers with differential propellors,
turbogenerators are fitted.
Reserve : 1t
AD
0.9t - FC
0t - SR Radio
OD
HAW
0.1t - CO2 Compressor AC
HBW
1t - Turbogenerator
I like it. Definitely a handy little thing to have available.
Exploration of using the Cruiser 8000t , 0.9 limit to build a little carrier.
Basically winds up similar but superior to HMS Hermes,
though to be fair. pretty sure that HMS Hermes was inefficient.
- 8160 standard vs. 10,850 tons
- same belt, 50% deck
- more armament
- 12 x 130 vs 6x 140
- 25% more airgroup - 25 vs 20
- 1 knot faster , much much greater range
Falconeer, Parthian Fighter Carrier laid down 1925
Displacement:
7,840 t light; 8,160 t standard; 9,148 t normal; 9,938 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(524.93 ft / 518.37 ft) x 52.49 ft x (24.77 / 26.33 ft)
(160.00 m / 158.00 m) x 16.00 m x (7.55 / 8.03 m)
Armament:
12 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 174 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1925 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2 row quad mounts on sides, forward deck forward
2 raised mounts
2 x 2 row quad mounts on sides, forward deck forward
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,095 lbs / 497 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 336.94 ft / 102.70 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Ends: 1.38" / 35 mm 181.40 ft / 55.29 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm -
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.38" / 35 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.38" / 35 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.38" / 35 mm, Aft 1.38" / 35 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 36,688 shp / 27,369 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 6,600nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,778 tons
Complement:
466 - 607
Cost:
£1.672 million / $6.687 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 238 tons, 2.6 %
- Guns: 238 tons, 2.6 %
Armour: 952 tons, 10.4 %
- Belts: 410 tons, 4.5 %
- Armament: 60 tons, 0.7 %
- Armour Deck: 456 tons, 5.0 %
- Conning Towers: 26 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,191 tons, 13.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,063 tons, 33.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,308 tons, 14.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2,395 tons, 26.2 %
- Hull below water: 1,060 tons
- Hull void weights: 24 tons
- Hull above water: 1,032 tons
- On freeboard deck: 55 tons
- Above deck: 224 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
14,626 lbs / 6,634 Kg = 218.2 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 15.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low forecastle,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.475 / 0.485
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.87 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.10 ft / 7.65 m, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Average freeboard: 28.35 ft / 8.64 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 214.0 %
Waterplane Area: 17,729 Square feet or 1,647 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 143 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 72 lbs/sq ft or 352 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.73
- Longitudinal: 5.42
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
Goal is simply a fighter launch platform
1 Flight (16) of Fighters, with 1 flying spare per talon of 4 for a total of 20 fighters.
One talons (1x 4) of scouts, with 1 flying spare per talon, for a total of 5 scouts
25 planes = 2000t
Single hanger = 1625m2
Sufficient speed to keep up with the Stormbringer Class,
with high cruise speed to move around steaming formation as needed.
The result more closely remembers HMS Hermes
Misc Wt :
Reserve : 24t
AD
24t - FC
25t - LR Radio
0t - SR Radio
25t - Night Fighting / Searchlights
25t - Hulesmeyer proximity detector
10t - Dedicated AC channel
10t - Squadron Plot room
100t - 'H" superstructure
OD
5t - Paravanes
50t - 2x hydraulic catapults
HAW
1000 Airgroup
8t - CO2 Compressor AC
16t - Forced Fume extraction
8t - Additional Fire Suppression
HBW
1000 Airgroup
8t - Additional fire suppression
36 - 30t Avgas in 6t doublewall tanks
8t- Additional fighter/scout munitions
8t - Additional pumps
Decks
9.0 : Flight Deck
6.5 : Weather Deck
4.0 : Battery Deck (Casements)
1.5 : Armor Deck Main Deck
-1.0 :
-5.5 : Engineering
-6.45 : Double bottom
-7.55 : Keel
This is the size I'm playing with for my next type, though I stuck with 1.00 HS in that case.
Not that it matters for design purposes, but my airgroup is completely opposite; the ship is focused on providing scouting for anti-raider and trade protection forces.
At this early period,
between night and adverse weather - either high winds or low ceilings - scout planes are seen as supplemental for search.
Adding catapult launched ones to cruisers seems the best choice.
However there is a desire to blind the enemy as best possible- either for spotting purposes, or fleet intercept purposes, etc.
So you're seeing the Parthians add float fighters - to contest that spotting regime - and looking to put carrier fighters up there.
Hence the flight deck cruisers - to work with scout cruisers and deliver fighters to the scouting fight.
Hopefully in any engagement, I'll control aerial spotting.
IMO
Your Falconeer is too short. Reduce draft and increase length.
So you are correct.. in some ways.
Flight deck here is 126.4m, which is short.
IF I wanted to launch monoplane bombers off the ship, that would be an issue.
Wingloading becomes very important for takeoff / landing speeds and distances.
But for a 1925 design, when lightly loaded biplanes are the only plane around,
and I really just want to quickly launch fighters...
Though it does have the two hydraulic catapults.
The future of the ship would find it lacking, more of a WWII Escort Carrier.... albeit faster.
Actually, looking it up, the current Flight deck is just 3m more than the Long Island class Flight deck.
That could be partly corrected by extending the flight deck over the bow.
Fighters and scouts should be flyable, though bombers would need to be catapulted.
monoplane Torpedo bombers would be inoperable, but Swordfish style would likely still fly.
As a secondary note :
From reading Friedman's book, somewhere in the text when he was discussing USN Flight deck cruisers, he states that For the USN, a clear flight deck of at least 234ft was desired.
Now that was for mid-20s designs, and equates to 71.3m
but this ship has 126.4m , so easily exceeds that.
It would not be the most satisfactory carrier, and would be limited,
but limited is the design goal.
The size becomes an obstacle to frontline combat ops but as you note, it remains viable as an escort carrier, training platform, plane ferry, and so forth. To my thinking, without the impetus of a naval arms limitation treaty interfering in carrier development, this is a fairly intuitive next step after one tests out the initial experimental carriers.
So that version of Falconeer was exploring the 0.9 cruiser hull,
this is a 1.0 version, which also adds a great deal more fuel capacity,
making it more suitable for Pacific operations if called on,
Basically, I'm trying to push a fleet speed of 14 knots,
and for the units that have to move around the fleet, 16 knots.
While moving ranges from 5600-6600 or so to 8000-9000.
I think Rocky's right and this may become a Training Carrier down the road,
or like Hermes, may find a watery grave.
Falconeer, Parthian Fighter Carrier laid down 1925
Displacement:
8,498 t light; 8,838 t standard; 10,244 t normal; 11,369 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(524.93 ft / 518.37 ft) x 55.77 ft x (22.97 / 24.94 ft)
(160.00 m / 158.00 m) x 17.00 m x (7.00 / 7.60 m)
Armament:
12 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.97lbs / 32.19kg shells, 174 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1925 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 23.55lbs / 10.68kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.19lbs / 2.81kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2 row quad mounts on sides, forward deck forward
2 raised mounts
2 x 2 row quad mounts on sides, forward deck forward
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,091 lbs / 495 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 336.94 ft / 102.70 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Ends: 1.38" / 35 mm 181.40 ft / 55.29 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm -
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.38" / 35 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.38" / 35 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.38" / 35 mm, Aft 1.38" / 35 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 40,345 shp / 30,097 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 8,900nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,531 tons
Complement:
508 - 661
Cost:
£1.802 million / $7.206 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 238 tons, 2.3 %
- Guns: 238 tons, 2.3 %
Armour: 1,016 tons, 9.9 %
- Belts: 414 tons, 4.0 %
- Armament: 60 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 514 tons, 5.0 %
- Conning Towers: 28 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,310 tons, 12.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,557 tons, 34.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,746 tons, 17.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2,377 tons, 23.2 %
- Hull below water: 1,063 tons
- Hull void weights: 40 tons
- Hull above water: 1,035 tons
- On freeboard deck: 15 tons
- Above deck: 224 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,144 lbs / 9,137 Kg = 300.5 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 14.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.28
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low forecastle,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.540 / 0.552
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.29 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.10 ft / 7.65 m, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Average freeboard: 28.35 ft / 8.64 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 221.3 %
Waterplane Area: 19,989 Square feet or 1,857 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 153 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 83 lbs/sq ft or 403 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.84
- Longitudinal: 4.91
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Goal is simply a fighter launch platform
1 Flight (16) of Fighters, with 1 flying spare per talon of 4 for a total of 20 fighters.
One talons (1x 4) of scouts, with 1 flying spare per talon, for a total of 5 scouts
25 planes = 2000t
Single hanger = 1625m2
Sufficient speed to keep up with the Stormbringer Class,
with high cruise speed to move around steaming formation as needed.
The result more closely remembers HMS Hermes
Misc Wt :
Reserve : 24t
AD
24t - FC
25t - LR Radio
0t - SR Radio
25t - Night Fighting / Searchlights
25t - Hulesmeyer proximity detector
10t - Dedicated AC channel
10t - Squadron Plot room
100t - 'H" superstructure
OD
5t - Paravanes
10t - 2x hydraulic catapults
HAW
1000 Airgroup
9t - CO2 Compressor AC
19t - Forced Fume extraction
9t - Additional Fire Suppression
HBW
1000 Airgroup
9t - Additional fire suppression
36 - 30t Avgas in 6t doublewall tanks
9t- Additional fighter/scout munitions
9t - Additional pumps
Decks
9.0 : Flight Deck
6.5 : Weather Deck
4.0 : Battery Deck (Casements)
1.5 : Armor Deck Main Deck
-1.0 :
-5.5 : Engineering
-6.38 : Double bottom
-7.00 : Keel
My entry in the 'its too short' 3000 club...
ok 3600, but 1.0 hull.
I made it short and beamy with a high BC to maximize flight deck area.
This allows 17 planes.
So I put on 17 planes.
Destroyer armament,
NO armor
just enough speed to keep up with the battleline in sprints
LOTs of fuel so it can cruise at high speed and chase the wind.
I can't see this being of much use 10, 15 years later, except as a trainer.
Quote
Bazdari, Parthian Fighter / Training Carrier laid down 1924
Displacement:
3,550 t light; 3,699 t standard; 4,552 t normal; 5,235 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(261.90 ft / 255.09 ft) x 62.34 ft x (15.58 / 17.56 ft)
(79.83 m / 77.75 m) x 19.00 m x (4.75 / 5.35 m)
Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
2 raised mounts
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.19lbs / 2.81kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
4 x 2 row quad mounts on side ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 334 lbs / 151 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.31" / 8 mm -
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 13,888 shp / 10,360 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 6,730nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,536 tons
Complement:
276 - 360
Cost:
£0.641 million / $2.564 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 70 tons, 1.5 %
- Guns: 70 tons, 1.5 %
Armour: 14 tons, 0.3 %
- Armament: 14 tons, 0.3 %
- Armour Deck: 1 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 457 tons, 10.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,526 tons, 33.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,003 tons, 22.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,482 tons, 32.6 %
- Hull below water: 680 tons
- Hull void weights: 35 tons
- Hull above water: 680 tons
- On freeboard deck: 10 tons
- Above deck: 77 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12,520 lbs / 5,679 Kg = 186.8 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.45
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 12.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.643 / 0.656
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.09 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.97 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Average freeboard: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 246.6 %
Waterplane Area: 12,103 Square feet or 1,124 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 176 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 70 lbs/sq ft or 341 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.74
- Longitudinal: 14.87
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Designed to keep up with the battleline,
but tail shortly behind to launch fighters or scouts.
The 130mm are fore/aft of the island, meant for cross deck fire.
At the corners of the flight deck are 57mm AA
and quad 15mm.
Airgroup : 16+1 : 17*65 = 1105
80*17= 1360
Misc wt
7t - FC
25t - LR Radio
0t - SR Radio
10t - Dedicated AG SR Radio
25t - Hulesmeyer
10t - Squadron Plot Room
OD
5t - Paravanes
5t - Hydraulic CAT
HAW
3t - CO2 Compressor AC
HBW
Airgroup : 1360 : 680/680 = 17 AC (16 + 1 spare)
Quote...I made it short and beamy with a high BC to maximize flight deck area.
This allows 17 planes.
So I put on 17 planes...
Flight deck area is 80x20.
It's a transporter. At best, the ship could have a catapult.
At the moment it could launch. But only because a lot of biplane of this Era had such a low takeoff speed that her steaming into a brisk wind would make takeoff speed near 0.
It does have a Catapult,
but given the length of flying off deck on early carriers, Tac's correct.
Simply look at the early 'flying off platforms' on various warships turrets,
or the forecastle length of USS Birmingham - where Ely took off.
Actually that ship was apparently 3750 tons, scaling the picture, that forecastle was about 30m.
I would think flying off and landing operations could not be done at the same time.
You need the entire deck to land.
Given a roughly 30m need to take off, and a roughly 71m need to land, then a crash barrier.
minimal length would be 101m, but you would want a space in between for aircraft handling and an elevator/ Ramp beyond the crash barrier.
Despite the 'cheap' cost, I find myself reluctant to build such a vessel
for 3 reasons
1) Future obsolescence
2) No armor, poor guns...how un...un Parthian.
3) No precedence of such a small carrier even being considered for regular construction.
Fifty years from now, it'll be Parthia installing anti-ship cruise missiles under its carrier flight decks.
Biplanes,
Helicopters
BAE Harriers
THEN
VLS missile cells
Long potential service life !
Noted that the wiki article on Merchant Aircraft Carriers cites a couple of deck dimension requirements with 120x19 metres being a late one. Obviously that applies to ships operating Swordfish with 14m wingspans rather than higher performance aircraft.
Ship speed seems to be more about keeping up with convoys rather than launching planes, but merchant speeds are pretty cheap in SS.
..back to cruisers.
So trying to cram all the things I want into a 6000t hull worked great on a 0.75 comp hull,
but not at a 0.9...
So a look at a hybrid between the Moulek and Royal Neissan.
Odd mix of Two-gun and Single.
Moulek IIIC, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,535 t standard; 9,466 t normal; 10,211 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(524.93 ft / 518.37 ft) x 62.34 ft x (22.15 / 23.40 ft)
(160.00 m / 158.00 m) x 19.00 m x (6.75 / 7.13 m)
Armament:
12 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 900 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 900 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,497 lbs / 1,133 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.33" / 110 mm 311.02 ft / 94.80 m 16.80 ft / 5.12 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 1.38" / 35 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
4th: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.36" / 60 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 2.36" / 60 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.31" / 135 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 58,305 shp / 43,496 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 8,360nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,676 tons
Complement:
479 - 623
Cost:
£2.590 million / $10.359 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 690 tons, 7.3 %
- Guns: 690 tons, 7.3 %
Armour: 2,055 tons, 21.7 %
- Belts: 955 tons, 10.1 %
- Armament: 165 tons, 1.7 %
- Armour Deck: 883 tons, 9.3 %
- Conning Tower: 51 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,893 tons, 20.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,967 tons, 31.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,466 tons, 15.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 395 tons, 4.2 %
- Hull below water: 50 tons
- Hull void weights: 35 tons
- Hull above water: 16 tons
- On freeboard deck: 140 tons
- Above deck: 154 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
11,300 lbs / 5,126 Kg = 63.5 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 15.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.80
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.24
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak, low quarterdeck ,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.463 / 0.473
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.32 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.92 ft / 7.90 m, 25.92 ft / 7.90 m
- Forward deck: 25.00 %, 25.92 ft / 7.90 m, 25.92 ft / 7.90 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 9.84 ft / 3.00 m, 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Average freeboard: 19.95 ft / 6.08 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.7 %
Waterplane Area: 20,836 Square feet or 1,936 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 99 lbs/sq ft or 484 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.83
- Longitudinal: 1.78
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
A mixture of the new two-gun and older singles,
this vessel brings 10 guns on the broadside and 6 guns forward/aft.
Each gun mounting is protected against lighter guns and splinters, but
not peer hits.
The outsloped belt is extensive to add floatation,
while a thick armored deck caps it, to better allow the vessel to fight at
the edge of it's 18km effective range.
The Two-gun mountings have a rotating weight of 118t
and so are provided with 48tons of power assist (12t/ea)
while the single guns have a rotating weight of 65t.
The 85kg shell is also within guidelines.
Each main gun mounting is 65.7 tons, with a 85kg shell wt, within the guidelines for weight.
A lowered quarterdeck is hoped to make aircraft handling easier.
A/B/X/Y : 2-G 180mm
C/D/E/F : 1-G 180mm
1-4 : 2x 90mm
a-d : 2x 57mm
TT : Torpedo Tubes
( ) : Superimposed
[ ] : Double superimposed
|
| : Deck level change
C (D) | TT G |
(1) | (3) |
| |
A (B) [a] | [d] (X) Y| A/C
[c] | |
(2) | (4) |
E (F) | TT H |
Armor :
A heavy 60mm armor deck is mounted high at the 3.0m level.
A broad outsloped armor belt then covers from the armor deck
to -2.0m
The fore and aft decks are protective decks crowning at 0.5 and descending to -2.0.
Armor Belt : From 3.0 to -2.0
Outsloped 12
5m/cos(12) =5.12
Miscellaneous Wt :
Reserve : 35t
AD :
69t : Fire Control
25t : LR Radio
25t : Searchlight Tower (NF)
25t : Hulesmeyer Proximity Detector for night formations
0t : SR Radio
10t : Dedicated AC SR Radio
---
144t
OD
5t : Paravanes
32t : 2TT4 21" Torpedoes
50t : Provision for 2 Floatplanes - Scout (or Ftr) on fantail
5t : 1x gunpowder Cat on fantail
48t : Power assist for Two-Gun 180mm mounts.
---
140t
HAW
8t : Additional Fire Suppression
8t : CO2 compressor AC
HBW
8t : Additional Pumps
10t : 9t Av Gas +1t dble wall tank
32t : Spare Torpedoes
Decks
7.9 : Forecastle Deck
5.5 : Weather Deck
3.0 : Top main belt, Armor Deck
0.5 : Main Deck
-2.0 : Bottom main belt
-4.5 : Engineering
-5.6 : Double Bottom
-6.0 : Keel
Honestly, have you thought about a Q mount of twins? You're dropping in 4 guns to only add 2 to your broadside. Seems a bit wasteful of tonnage and space on such a small ship.
I'm doing the same work right now, made one awesome .9 cruiser at 9000t. Then realized it had to be 8000. So now I'm redoing it, again, to get it to 8000.
Same basic cruiser,
some tinkering with hull form and reduction in deck heights
so looses the 1.2 sea and 70 'slow and easy'
but gains +1 knot to 30knots.
Belt drops from 110 to 100mm but moves up 0.7m. Still outsloped.
Overall I think I like the IIIC better.
Moulek IIID, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
8,007 t light; 8,542 t standard; 9,474 t normal; 10,219 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(524.93 ft / 518.37 ft) x 59.06 ft x (23.29 / 24.61 ft)
(160.00 m / 158.00 m) x 18.00 m x (7.10 / 7.50 m)
Armament:
12 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 900 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 900 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,497 lbs / 1,133 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 342.13 ft / 104.28 m 17.45 ft / 5.32 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 1.38" / 35 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
4th: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.36" / 60 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 2.36" / 60 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.31" / 135 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 66,559 shp / 49,653 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,340nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,678 tons
Complement:
479 - 624
Cost:
£2.713 million / $10.853 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 690 tons, 7.3 %
- Guns: 690 tons, 7.3 %
Armour: 2,022 tons, 21.3 %
- Belts: 969 tons, 10.2 %
- Armament: 163 tons, 1.7 %
- Armour Deck: 839 tons, 8.9 %
- Conning Tower: 51 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,161 tons, 22.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,738 tons, 28.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,467 tons, 15.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 395 tons, 4.2 %
- Hull below water: 50 tons
- Hull void weights: 35 tons
- Hull above water: 16 tons
- On freeboard deck: 140 tons
- Above deck: 154 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,907 lbs / 4,040 Kg = 50.1 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.465 / 0.475
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.78 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.26 ft / 7.70 m, 22.80 ft / 6.95 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 22.80 ft / 6.95 m, 20.34 ft / 6.20 m
- Aft deck: 36.00 %, 12.14 ft / 3.70 m, 12.14 ft / 3.70 m
- Quarter deck: 14.00 %, 12.14 ft / 3.70 m, 12.14 ft / 3.70 m
- Average freeboard: 17.30 ft / 5.27 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129.2 %
Waterplane Area: 19,774 Square feet or 1,837 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 97 lbs/sq ft or 473 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.86
- Longitudinal: 1.52
- Overall: 0.91
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
A mixture of the new two-gun and older singles,
this vessel brings 10 guns on the broadside and 6 guns forward/aft.
Each gun mounting is protected against lighter guns and splinters, but
not peer hits.
The outsloped belt is extensive to add floatation,
while a thick armored deck caps it, to better allow the vessel to fight at
the edge of it's 18km effective range.
The Two-gun mountings have a rotating weight of 118t
and so are provided with 48tons of power assist (12t/ea)
while the single guns have a rotating weight of 65t.
The 85kg shell is also within guidelines.
Each main gun mounting is 65.7 tons, with a 85kg shell wt, within the guidelines for weight.
A lowered quarterdeck is hoped to make aircraft handling easier.
A/B/X/Y : 2-G 180mm
C/D/E/F : 1-G 180mm
1-4 : 2x 90mm
a-d : 2x 57mm
TT : Torpedo Tubes
( ) : Superimposed
[ ] : Double superimposed
|
| : Deck level change
C (D) | TT G
(1) | (3)
|
A (B) [a] | [d] (X) Y A/C
[c] |
(2) | (4)
E (F) | TT H
Armor :
A heavy 60mm armor deck is mounted high at the 3.7m level.
A broad outsloped armor belt then covers from the armor deck
to -1.5m
The fore and aft decks are protective decks crowning at 0.5 and descending to -2.0.
Armor Belt : From 3.0 to -2.0
Outsloped 12
5m/cos(12) =5.12
Miscellaneous Wt :
Reserve : 35t
AD :
69t : Fire Control
25t : LR Radio
25t : Searchlight Tower (NF)
25t : Hulesmeyer Proximity Detector for night formations
0t : SR Radio
10t : Dedicated AC SR Radio
---
144t
OD
5t : Paravanes
32t : 2TT4 21" Torpedoes
50t : Provision for 2 Floatplanes - Scout (or Ftr) on fantail
5t : 1x gunpowder Cat on fantail
48t : Power assist for Two-Gun 180mm mounts.
---
140t
HAW
8t : Additional Fire Suppression
8t : CO2 compressor AC
HBW
8t : Additional Pumps
10t : 9t Av Gas +1t dble wall tank
32t : Spare Torpedoes
Decks
6.2 : Forecastle Deck
3.7 : Weather Deck , Top main belt, Armor Deck
1.2 : Main Deck
-1.3 : Deck
-1.5 : Bottom main belt
-4.9 : Engineering Deck
-5.9 : Double Bottom
-7.1 : Keel
Quote from: TacCovert4 on January 31, 2023, 03:36:08 PM
Honestly, have you thought about a Q mount of twins? You're dropping in 4 guns to only add 2 to your broadside. Seems a bit wasteful of tonnage and space on such a small ship.
I'm doing the same work right now, made one awesome .9 cruiser at 9000t. Then realized it had to be 8000. So now I'm redoing it, again, to get it to 8000.
The preceeding Royal Neissan class has both P and Q :)
One factor is I want the fast rotating mounts, so singles...though 2/side is a little light. Older ships have 3.
Plus I rather want forward fire as part of the package- this has 6 guns forward, and 10 broadside vs. the Royal Neissan 4 forward, 12 broadside.
The Parthian arrangement you see on many earlier ships is 10 singles
4 fore-aft in the A/B X/Y
then 3 on each side with a raised central.
That gives 6 forward and 7 broadside, all singles.
So this is exploring between the two.
Back to the 29knot version, to keep the seakeeping and slow and steady.
I should take a second look at the Q mount as Tac suggests
..but not this time ... taking those side 180 and placing them on the foredeck with the rear ones superimposed.
Same 10 gun broadside, but now 8 guns forward...6 rear.
Nice broad 19m beam to facilitate cheek mountings, high BC means tapers allot at the ends.
Part of this design series is to improve on the Royal Neissan's 50mm deck.
The 60mm deck is a great deal of weight, but should mean she can stand in on cruiser fights for quite some time.
The acceptance of a thinner belt and no protective deck compared to the Moulek I is also a 'range' feature.
But substantially enhanced protected floatation.
Not to mention the class has good floatation compared to the Royal Neissans.
Moulek IIIE, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,535 t standard; 9,466 t normal; 10,211 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(524.93 ft / 518.37 ft) x 62.34 ft x (22.15 / 23.40 ft)
(160.00 m / 158.00 m) x 19.00 m x (6.75 / 7.13 m)
Armament:
12 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
2 raised mounts
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 900 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 900 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,497 lbs / 1,133 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.33" / 110 mm 311.02 ft / 94.80 m 16.80 ft / 5.12 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 1.38" / 35 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
4th: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.36" / 60 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 2.36" / 60 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.72" / 120 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 58,305 shp / 43,496 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 8,360nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,676 tons
Complement:
479 - 623
Cost:
£2.590 million / $10.359 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 690 tons, 7.3 %
- Guns: 690 tons, 7.3 %
Armour: 2,036 tons, 21.5 %
- Belts: 955 tons, 10.1 %
- Armament: 166 tons, 1.8 %
- Armour Deck: 869 tons, 9.2 %
- Conning Tower: 46 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,893 tons, 20.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,991 tons, 31.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,466 tons, 15.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 390 tons, 4.1 %
- Hull below water: 50 tons
- Hull void weights: 30 tons
- Hull above water: 16 tons
- On freeboard deck: 140 tons
- Above deck: 154 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
11,227 lbs / 5,093 Kg = 63.1 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 15.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.84
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.24
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak, low quarterdeck ,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.463 / 0.473
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.32 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.92 ft / 7.90 m, 25.92 ft / 7.90 m
- Forward deck: 25.00 %, 25.92 ft / 7.90 m, 25.92 ft / 7.90 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m, 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Quarter deck: 20.00 %, 9.84 ft / 3.00 m, 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Average freeboard: 19.95 ft / 6.08 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.7 %
Waterplane Area: 20,836 Square feet or 1,936 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 100 lbs/sq ft or 487 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.83
- Longitudinal: 1.79
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
A/B/X/Y : 2-G 180mm
C/D/E/F : 1-G 180mm
1-4 : 2x 90mm
a-d : 2x 57mm
TT : Torpedo Tubes
( ) : Superimposed
[ ] : Double superimposed
|
| : Deck level change
C (D) | TT |
(1) | (3) |
| |
A (B) [a] | [d] (X) Y| A/C
[c] | |
(2) | (4) |
E (F) | TT |
So a Q mount removes those 4 singles, adds a Foredeck Aft 2-gun.
That takes 12 more for power training,
Keeps the 10gun broadside and drops the fore/aft fire to 4 guns each,
BUT allows upping the belt to the desired 125mm outsloped.
That's intriguing.
Though I really like the heavy forward fire, both as a hard target
and to be able to close with a fast vessel- they can't turn broadside
without letting me close.
And so long as I have superior armor, that's in my favor.
Interesting, my use of [] for the double super mounts, and the letter b...triggers the BOLD.
Should have forseen that.
Also, got to remember to save, close, and reopen the ships...and double check tonnage. Both those
are a smidge over the 8000 mark. Easily fixed, but...
So going back to the actual 1921 Moulek, which seems a good basis,
and seeing how much I can wring out of the design.
I'd like more guns, armor and seakeeping.... but for 6000 tons this isn't bad.
Floatation is fairly minimal due to being crammed full of machinery and guns.
Range is quite good. Capable of long range sustained operations.
This does have an thick armored deck + outsloped belt arrangement
which should give a little more floatation but worse short range armor.
This has the 180L47 arranged for forward fire.
As I recalled I looked up the
Atlanta class for beam,
figuring their 'wing' twin 5" breech and handling gear / mount ring
would have a similar foot print to the single 180.
The longer 180 barrel should not greatly matter.
C (E) |
A (B) | (X) Y
D (F) |
So 6 broadside and 6 forward, but 4 aft.
Each single mount is 64 tons rotating
Quote
Moulek IIIA Parthian Cruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
6,000 t light; 6,380 t standard; 7,348 t normal; 8,122 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(523.50 ft / 516.73 ft) x 50.30 ft x (21.33 / 22.94 ft)
(159.56 m / 157.50 m) x 15.33 m x (6.50 / 6.99 m)
Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 610 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,748 lbs / 793 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 346.23 ft / 105.53 m 10.07 ft / 3.07 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.17" / 55 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 2.17" / 55 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.33" / 110 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 55,801 shp / 41,627 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 10,100nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,742 tons
Complement:
396 - 515
Cost:
£2.074 million / $8.296 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 478 tons, 6.5 %
- Guns: 478 tons, 6.5 %
Armour: 1,351 tons, 18.4 %
- Belts: 558 tons, 7.6 %
- Armament: 114 tons, 1.6 %
- Armour Deck: 644 tons, 8.8 %
- Conning Tower: 35 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,812 tons, 24.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,169 tons, 29.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,347 tons, 18.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 190 tons, 2.6 %
- Hull void weights: 20 tons
- Hull above water: 6 tons
- On freeboard deck: 66 tons
- Above deck: 98 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,560 lbs / 2,976 Kg = 36.9 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 14.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.464 / 0.477
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.27 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.73 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.26 ft / 7.70 m, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m
- Forward deck: 25.00 %, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m, 20.34 ft / 6.20 m
- Aft deck: 42.00 %, 12.14 ft / 3.70 m, 12.14 ft / 3.70 m
- Quarter deck: 13.00 %, 12.14 ft / 3.70 m, 12.14 ft / 3.70 m
- Average freeboard: 16.79 ft / 5.12 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 103.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 126.1 %
Waterplane Area: 16,773 Square feet or 1,558 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 84 lbs/sq ft or 412 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.85
- Longitudinal: 1.37
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Armor Deck : 55mm capping Armor Belt
Armor Belt : From 1.5 to -1.5
Outsloped 12deg
3m/Cos(12) = 3.07
Misc. Weight :
20t: Construction Resv
AD
25t : LR Radio
48t : FC
25t : Searchlight tower (NF)
OD
36t : 2T3 21" TT
5t : Paravanes
20 : Scout Floatplane on stern
5t : Gunpowder Cat
HAW
6t : CO2 Compressor AC
Decks :
+6.50 : Forecastle deck
+4.00 : Battery deck/ weather deck
+1.50 : Armor Deck
-1.00 : 1st deck
-1.50 : bottom armor belt
-4.50 : Engineering
-5.32 : Keel, double bottom
[/quote[
The 3000 ton conundrum.
The Parthians are currently replacing their ancient armored sailing frigates
with the Artesmia II class.
Basically a 130mm version of the Omaha they are 31 knots and have an armored magazine box,
as well as really long range.
I'm not happy with them.
So I took another look at their 'competitor' designs- the Sayidda and Khulutun.
Except for the top speed, this is much more what I want in that role.
Light armor, good range, and enough gun punch to take an AMC, disrupt an opposing DD division,
or land some blows in night combat.
....now to figure out how to add 2 knots while keeping everything else..and maybe trimming some tonnage....
which I suspect is not achievable
Sayyida, Parthian Armored Frigate laid down 1925
Displacement:
3,000 t light; 3,166 t standard; 3,685 t normal; 4,100 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(426.19 ft / 419.95 ft) x 42.65 ft x (15.29 / 16.54 ft)
(129.90 m / 128.00 m) x 13.00 m x (4.66 / 5.04 m)
Armament:
4 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 500 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 725 lbs / 329 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 0.59" / 15 mm 323.36 ft / 98.56 m 12.01 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 118 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 1.38" / 35 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.38" / 35 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.38" / 35 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 34,878 shp / 26,019 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 8,240nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 935 tons
Complement:
236 - 307
Cost:
£1.062 million / $4.249 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 177 tons, 4.8 %
- Guns: 177 tons, 4.8 %
Armour: 465 tons, 12.6 %
- Belts: 92 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 73 tons, 2.0 %
- Armour Deck: 293 tons, 8.0 %
- Conning Tower: 7 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,132 tons, 30.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,026 tons, 27.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 685 tons, 18.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 5.4 %
- Hull below water: 18 tons
- Hull void weights: 30 tons
- Hull above water: 6 tons
- On freeboard deck: 48 tons
- Above deck: 98 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2,429 lbs / 1,102 Kg = 17.7 x 6.5 " / 165 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 13.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.471 / 0.484
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.85 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 17.00 %, 23.29 ft / 7.10 m, 20.83 ft / 6.35 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 20.83 ft / 6.35 m, 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Aft deck: 47.00 %, 9.84 ft / 3.00 m, 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Quarter deck: 6.00 %, 9.84 ft / 3.00 m, 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
- Average freeboard: 14.81 ft / 4.51 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 117.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128.1 %
Waterplane Area: 11,629 Square feet or 1,080 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 58 lbs/sq ft or 281 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.71
- Longitudinal: 1.23
- Overall: 0.75
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
The Sayyida class was viewed as an alternative to the Artesmia II class.
Ship Requirements :
Main role is independent operations as a patrol vessel, 'show the flag' and general patrol.
Secondary is screening the fleet or independent raids,
acting as a destroyer or torpedo boat leader in the latter case.
Speed of 29knots to be able to operate with most
Parthian Cruisers. It is NOT the 30 or 31 desired.
Opting for a few hard hitting QF guns vs. lots of lighter,
the 4x 165mm are expected to wreck a destroyer with a hit,
while providing the ability to hurt a fellow cruiser close in.
The protective deck with 35mm crown and
50mm slopes is meant to provide defense against destroyer
level weapons.
Night Fighting and reconnaisance abilities
Plotting room for DD Formation
Oceanic range for Pacific operations is preferred,
but difficult. Still 8000*1.15 = 8920nm, not bad.
Misc Wt :
Reserve : 20
AD :
18t FC
25t LR Radio and Masts
25t Hulesmeyer proximity detector
15t Night fighting gear
15t Squadron Plot Room.
OD
5t - Paravanes
18t - 2x TT3 21"
20+5t : Scout floatplane + gunpowder cat - amidships
2t 2 "Y" throwers
8t DC on fantail
HAW
3t CO2 AC
3t Enhanced fire suppresion
HBW
3t Enhanced Pumps
15t Enhanced Hydrophones
Is that a 15mm belt? Oof. That's not enough to keep out a lot of splinters. Why not just do a box over mag and machinery, cut down on risk of a 1 shot instead?
Quote from: TacCovert4 on February 02, 2023, 09:58:03 PM
Is that a 15mm belt? Oof. That's not enough to keep out a lot of splinters. Why not just do a box over mag and machinery, cut down on risk of a 1 shot instead?
Hmm forgot to put that in the notes -
That's +15mm on the slopes of the protective deck, (which is why the height is 3.66m, to account for a 1 deck level 45deg slope)
giving 50mm on the slope and 35mm on the crown.
That's over the citadel, the fore/aft would just be the 35mm.... which would still defeat HE and Destroyer rounds.
Very close to the old Amman class AGBs of 1897-1921.
The last 1925 AGB project was 2500t-2T2x191-24kts
=> Reducing the speed from 30 to 29kts gives more flexibility for your overall design.
1925 update of a previously posted 1924 design..
In 1924 I laid down the first 4 of the new Vakharz (Wolf) fleet destroyers,
But chose to lay down the 12th of the Palang (Leopard) Oceanic destroyers.
Since I want groups of 3 to triangulate on subs, fielding 4 groups of 3 makes sense..
BUT...it means the 1924 oceanic destroyers previously posted have the wrong engine year.
So I need one for 1925, which means rebalancing to get to .5 and 50%
So this is the 1925 version of the Babr (Tiger) Oceanic Destroyer
Again, choosing to forgo a 6th 120mm for the ASW howitzer,
Babr (Tiger), Parthian Corvette laid down 1925
Displacement:
1,500 t light; 1,584 t standard; 1,865 t normal; 2,090 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(392.94 ft / 387.14 ft) x 36.75 ft x (10.93 / 11.81 ft)
(119.77 m / 118.00 m) x 11.20 m x (3.33 / 3.60 m)
Armament:
5 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 220 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
1 raised mount aft
1 - 4.65" / 118 mm 21.0 cal gun - 59.52lbs / 27.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing gun in casemate mount, 1925 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
1 raised mount
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 350 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides forward
2 raised mounts
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 2,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2 row quad mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 363 lbs / 164 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
2nd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
3rd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
4th: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 33,798 shp / 25,213 Kw = 31.90 kts
Range 6,660nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 505 tons
Complement:
141 - 184
Cost:
£0.648 million / $2.590 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 54 tons, 2.9 %
- Guns: 54 tons, 2.9 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.2 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 932 tons, 50.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 431 tons, 23.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 365 tons, 19.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 4.3 %
- Hull below water: 25 tons
- Hull void weights: 12 tons
- Hull above water: 2 tons
- On freeboard deck: 30 tons
- Above deck: 11 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
530 lbs / 240 Kg = 10.0 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.41
Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 10.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.23
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.420 / 0.435
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.54 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.68 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 21.65 ft / 6.60 m, 19.03 ft / 5.80 m
- Forward deck: 26.00 %, 19.03 ft / 5.80 m, 16.73 ft / 5.10 m
- Aft deck: 39.00 %, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m
- Average freeboard: 13.27 ft / 4.05 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 172.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.0 %
Waterplane Area: 8,869 Square feet or 824 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 77 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 154 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.90
- Overall: 0.53
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Sher - Lion
Babr- Tiger
Palang - Leopard
Vakharz - Wolf
This is an evolution of the Palang (Leopard) design,
boosting gun power while retaining the other elements.
Ultimately this sacrifices the good seakeeping,
but fits in one more 120mm guns, and better provisions for night fighting.
The 12tons reserve miscellaneous weight also gives some room for expansion and rearming of the design, wether with larger torpedoes, more DCs, a reworked armanent or other.
The main battery is aligned in a pair of
two-gun mounts in A and X, with a superimposed "Y"
addressing a perceived deficiency vs. some foriegn designs
In "B" is a howitzer firing blunt nosed shells to allow forward engagement of submarines. For shore bombardment support,additional HE rounds can be stored in the 120mm mag.
Amidships is an elevated platform between the torpedo tubes, aranged en echelon are the two pairs of 57mm AA. This allows good sky arcs, and good engagement on the opposite broadside
For/aft, Paired twin GAST 15mm
are mounted to allow engagement of any plane seeking to strafe the length of the ship. These can also bear on the beam.
All guns are given bulletproof 1/4" (6mm) spray shields.
12T - Construction reserve
AD:
5.5t - FC
0t - SR Radio
5.5t - NF Gear
OD:
2t - Lt. MS Paravanes
18t - 2TT3 21" Torpedoes
1t - DC "Y" thrower
1t - ASW Paravanes
0t - 2 stern rails
8t - Depth charges (32x 280kg)
HAW
1.5t - CO2 Air Compressor AC
HBW
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
10t - Sonar
Range :
Central to this class is very long range.
6660nm + 10% for geared = 7326nm
which is sufficient to accompany the fleet in Pacific operations.
Back to my veritable plethora of Carrier concepts.
As 'Bazdari' seems to be similar to 'Falconeer' in middle Persian, I will continue using that.
The previous version was much like HMS Hermes
8500 tons, and 25 Aircraft with light weapons and armor.
This is 10,500 with provisions for 1/3 more aircraft - not carried at first,
and cruiser-level guns and armor. I could see dropping the deck to 35mm and boosting the belt a tad.
CVF Bazdari, Parthian Fighter Carrier laid down 1925
Displacement:
10,500 t light; 10,979 t standard; 12,610 t normal; 13,914 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(524.93 ft / 518.37 ft) x 59.06 ft x (22.15 / 24.09 ft)
(160.00 m / 158.00 m) x 18.00 m x (6.75 / 7.34 m)
Armament:
12 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 180 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1925 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2 row quad mounts on sides, forward deck forward
2 raised mounts
2 x 2 row quad mounts on sides, forward deck forward
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,968 lbs / 893 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.15" / 80 mm 336.94 ft / 102.70 m 11.75 ft / 3.58 m
Ends: 1.38" / 35 mm 181.40 ft / 55.29 m 11.75 ft / 3.58 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 336.94 ft / 102.70 m 19.29 ft / 5.88 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.57" / 40 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.57" / 40 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.38" / 35 mm, Aft 1.38" / 35 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 48,216 shp / 35,969 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 8,954nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,934 tons
Complement:
594 - 773
Cost:
£2.237 million / $8.950 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 334 tons, 2.6 %
- Guns: 334 tons, 2.6 %
Armour: 1,425 tons, 11.3 %
- Belts: 633 tons, 5.0 %
- Armament: 78 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 682 tons, 5.4 %
- Conning Towers: 32 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,565 tons, 12.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,977 tons, 31.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,109 tons, 16.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 3,199 tons, 25.4 %
- Hull below water: 1,546 tons
- Hull void weights: 50 tons
- Hull above water: 1,364 tons
- On freeboard deck: 15 tons
- Above deck: 224 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,862 lbs / 10,824 Kg = 174.1 x 6.5 " / 165 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 13.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.651 / 0.660
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.78 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m, 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Average freeboard: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 222.2 %
Waterplane Area: 23,473 Square feet or 2,181 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 145 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 86 lbs/sq ft or 422 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.84
- Longitudinal: 4.53
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
The Bazdari (Falconeer)
is intended to be primarily a fighter launch platform to ensure air control over the fleet, preventing and disrupting opposing spotting
and torpedo attacks.
The actual airgroup is limited in design :
1 Flight (16) of Fighters, with 1 flying spare per talon of 4 for a total of 20 fighters.
One talons (1x 4) of scouts, with 1 flying spare per talon, for a total of 5 scouts
Desired 25 planes = 2000t
With aircraft operations still being in development,
designing the minimum required space is problematic,
so a a larger space is planned, allowing operations to
help verify how much is 'necessary'.
Eventually, the ship may carry 2 flights (32) with no reserves.
Deck Space : 2181/ 65 = 33 aircraft possible
31 x 80 = 2640
=1320 & 1320
Sufficient speed to keep up with the Stormbringer Class,
with high cruise speed to move around steaming formation as needed.
A heavy battery of 165mm guns and
cruiser-level armor is meant to allow it to survive a nighttime or bad
weather attack by destroyers or cruisers.
Belt covers from +2.5 to -1.0.
The shallow depth is felt acceptable
as combat is foreseen as short range.
The belt is outsloped 12 degrees
3.5 / cos(12) = 3.58
A heavy deck is fitted for both
splinter protection (up to 240) and to thwart lucky long range hits.
The upper works, save for the Casement enclosures, are unarmored, as an AoN effort.
Misc Wt :
Reserve : 50t
AD
24t - FC
25t - LR Radio
0t - SR Radio
25t - Night Fighting / Searchlights
25t - Hulesmeyer proximity detector
10t - Dedicated AC channel
10t - Squadron Plot room
100t - 'H" superstructure
OD
5t - Paravanes
10t - 2x hydraulic catapults
HAW
1320 Airgroup
11t - CO2 Compressor AC
22t - Forced Fume extraction
11t - Additional Fire Suppression
HBW
1320 Airgroup
11t - Additional fire suppression
36 - 30t Avgas in 6t doublewall tanks
10t- Additional fighter/scout munitions
11t - Additional pumps
158t - Torpedo nets
Decks
9: Flight Deck
6.5m high hanger
2.5: Armor Deck, Battery Deck (Casements)
-1.0 : Bottom Armor Belt
-2.5 :
-6.0 : Engineering
-6.49 : Double bottom
-6.75 : Keel
This is another take on a 'Flight Deck Cruiser',
the previous was 8x180, and I was able to eek 6x 255 out of that,
but felt that being able to field 8x 230mm would be a good intermediate
choice.
This should be able to range out in front of the fleet and provide scout and fighter services
to the cruiser screen, while being dangerous to virtually all ships that might be able to
catch it, and being able to survive encounters at night or in bad weather.
It is very tempting to drop the speed 1 knot and free up 300 tons.
That could fit more belt/deck armor, or maybe a TDS.
But my cruisers are generally over 29 knots, and the Zemaka ACs are even faster.
Avio Aristabara, Parthian Fighter Carrier laid down 1925
Displacement:
14,000 t light; 14,722 t standard; 15,836 t normal; 16,728 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(590.12 ft / 583.99 ft) x 72.18 ft x (26.25 / 27.36 ft)
(179.87 m / 178.00 m) x 22.00 m x (8.00 / 8.34 m)
Armament:
8 - 9.06" / 230 mm 44.0 cal guns - 392.42lbs / 178.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1925 Model
1 x 4-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward
1 x 4-gun mount on centreline, forward deck aft
16 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1925 Model
16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
16 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2 row quad mounts on sides amidships
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,101 lbs / 1,860 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.54" / 90 mm 379.59 ft / 115.70 m 10.73 ft / 3.27 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.31" / 135 mm 2.95" / 75 mm 3.54" / 90 mm
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.38" / 35 mm, Aft 1.38" / 35 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 77,985 shp / 58,177 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 7,220nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,007 tons
Complement:
705 - 917
Cost:
£3.782 million / $15.129 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 957 tons, 6.0 %
- Guns: 957 tons, 6.0 %
Armour: 1,967 tons, 12.4 %
- Belts: 604 tons, 3.8 %
- Armament: 340 tons, 2.1 %
- Armour Deck: 986 tons, 6.2 %
- Conning Towers: 37 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,532 tons, 16.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,253 tons, 39.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,836 tons, 11.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2,290 tons, 14.5 %
- Hull below water: 1,121 tons
- Hull void weights: 110 tons
- Hull above water: 828 tons
- On freeboard deck: 60 tons
- Above deck: 171 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,287 lbs / 11,924 Kg = 70.8 x 9.1 " / 230 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.501 / 0.508
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.09 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 26.57 ft / 8.10 m, 24.11 ft / 7.35 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 24.11 ft / 7.35 m, 21.65 ft / 6.60 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 39.70 ft / 12.10 m, 39.70 ft / 12.10 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 39.70 ft / 12.10 m, 39.70 ft / 12.10 m
- Average freeboard: 31.73 ft / 9.67 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 242.6 %
Waterplane Area: 28,110 Square feet or 2,612 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 129 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 123 lbs/sq ft or 602 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.84
- Longitudinal: 4.73
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Aristabara = spear bearer
For the first vessel, a 16 plane troop, at a planned 75% servicibility
would take 20 aircraft. Of these, 2 x Fighter Lances, and 2x Scout Lances will be initially embarked. One spare per lance would be embarked. If fighter launch rates promise to get more than 8 fighters into combat, the number of scouts can be reduced.
Gun Deck : 6.6m
Single Hanger : +5.5 = 12.1m
Aircraft : 20 x 80t = 1600t
Needed Waterplane = 1300 m2 x2 for Flight deck cruiser penalty : 2600
A and C turrets are on the same level, but widely spaced. The bow curves up to much for dead on forward fire. However, on broadside or at long and moderate ranges, the barrel elevation necessary will allow both to bear directly forward
The "Fore" and "Aft" Cons are really twin islands sited on either side of the forward edge of the flight deck, which cantilevers out over C turret.
A flying bridge arching over the flight deck connects them
for an H shape.
The 230L44 gun can engage enemy vessels at all ranges, and can easily penetrate cruisers at a number of ranges, while potent against enemy armored cruisers met at night.
Capable of sustained 4-gun ladders, the two turrets are widely spaced, but not superimposed. So "C" can not fire dead ahead at short ranges, but must elevate over "A".
The guns are viewed as useful in bad weather, or night, or if the planes are out of commision, or if they have already been launched.
Casements mounted along the ships side provide destroyer defense.
57mm guns arae mounted in sponsons along the edge of the flight deck
Quad15mm are mounted high up the con towers, on the seaward side.
The main belt covers from +1.6 to - 1.6 and is outsloped 12 degrees outboard.
3.2/cos(12) = 3.271 = 3.27
Flight Deck : The main flight deck takes 89m (292ft) with a cantilevered forward section overhanging 'C' turret. For the USN, a clear flight deck of at least 234ft was desired.
Misc Wt
Resv :110
AD
96t FC
25t LR Radio
0t SR Radio
10t SR radio - dedicated A/C control
25t Hulesmeyer device
25t Night fighting searchlights and gear
OD
10t x2 catapults
50t x2 elevators 25t. One aft, one at rear of Cats
HAW
800t 10x Fixed Wheel Aircraft
14t Additional Fire Suppression
14t CO2 Air Compressor AC
HBW
800t +10x Fixed Wheel Aircraft
178t Torpedo Nets
15t Enhanced Hydro
70t Additional AVGAS in doublewall tanks (60/10)
30t Additional Munitions
14t Additional Fire Suppresion
14t Additional pumps
12.10m Flight Deck
6.60m Weather Deck / Hanger Deck
4.10m Battery Deck (Casements)
1.60m Armor Deck, Top Main belt.
- 0.90m
-1.6m Bottom main belt
- 3.40m
- 6.90m Engineering
-7.68m Doublebottom.
That's not too bad. I've been playing with similar ideas but not making them work as well.
In minewarfare the Parthians are comparatively well equipped.
There are 60 of the regular navy coastal Minesweepers, 64+ of the multi-role aux patrol sloops, and 15 of the new aux coastal minesweepers.
...but 2 minelayers.
Well, some of the old cruisers were fitted as minelayers too.
But in the future I will need to build some minelayers,
the first series focused on base defense, but with a 4400nm+ range to move around easily.
then later I will try to field a handful of very high speed offensive minelayers
for night time work.
Why does it have guns and armor ?
It's Parthian....
ML-3 D, Parthia Fleet Minelayer laid down 1925
Displacement:
660 t light; 707 t standard; 814 t normal; 899 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(163.42 ft / 160.76 ft) x 32.81 ft (Bulges 39.37 ft) x (9.19 / 10.04 ft)
(49.81 m / 49.00 m) x 10.00 m (Bulges 12.00 m) x (2.80 / 3.06 m)
Armament:
2 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1925 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
4 x 2 row quad mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 169 lbs / 77 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.38" / 35 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.38" / 35 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.18" / 30 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 2,142 shp / 1,598 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 4,800nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 192 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
76 - 99
Cost:
£0.165 million / $0.660 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 51 tons, 6.2 %
- Guns: 51 tons, 6.2 %
Armour: 124 tons, 15.2 %
- Bulges: 28 tons, 3.4 %
- Armament: 4 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 89 tons, 11.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 71 tons, 8.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 190 tons, 23.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 154 tons, 18.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 224 tons, 27.5 %
- Hull below water: 18 tons
- Bulge void weights: 14 tons
- Hull above water: 1 tons
- On freeboard deck: 180 tons
- Above deck: 11 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,509 lbs / 685 Kg = 22.5 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.35
Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 13.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.19
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.490 / 0.495
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.08 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 12.68 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 15.09 ft / 4.60 m, 15.09 ft / 4.60 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 15.09 ft / 4.60 m, 15.09 ft / 4.60 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 6.89 ft / 2.10 m, 6.89 ft / 2.10 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 6.89 ft / 2.10 m, 6.89 ft / 2.10 m
- Average freeboard: 10.99 ft / 3.35 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 53.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 93.2 %
Waterplane Area: 3,483 Square feet or 324 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 124 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 39 lbs/sq ft or 191 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.63
- Longitudinal: 3.54
- Overall: 0.75
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The class features a 1m deep anti-mine bulge on each side, covering the entire side, and meant to provide standoff distance to avoid crushing.
Rsv :14t
AD
6t FC
5t Nightfighting gear
OD
5t Paravanes
25t MSW gear
150t OD Minestowage aft
HABW
1t CO2 Compressor AC
HBW
18 Turbogenerator
Decks
4.60 : Forecastle Deck
2.10 : Main Deck
-.4 lower edge protective deck
-1.4 : Engineering
-2.44 : 1m Double Bottom (blends into bulge)
-2.8 : Keel
Quote...then later I will try to field a handful of very high speed offensive minelayers
for night time work.
Use a recent 32kts destroyer:
=> Lighten Weaponry remove some guns & torpedoes to free up tonnage for mines.
Quote from: Jefgte on February 21, 2023, 01:07:50 AM
Quote...then later I will try to field a handful of very high speed offensive minelayers
for night time work.
Use a recent 32kts destroyer:
=> Lighten Weaponry remove some guns & torpedoes to free up tonnage for mines.
Keeping this in mind. For either a dd run, or my remaining eagle class.
I think the DD route may be best,
possibly just refit an old torpedo boat.
I tried a 3000 ton build with light guns and armor,
only managed 400 tons of mines and
fuel for a 48hour 26knot run.
While it would nice to have that utility,
at that cost it's quite a lot for a niche ship
Second effort at Jefgte's DD concept, I took my new Babr class and converted it to a minelayer.
The idea is something that can disrupt the enemy rear areas and create a threat they
have to respond to, tying up resources and complicating supply lines.
Only 70 mines vs. the 300 of the cruiser version, but 1500 vs 3000 tons.
Also lighter armament, no armor....
But much harder to catch, and a higher sustained speed (27 vs 22) over 48hrs.
But spending 6000 (one cruiser) for 4 of these rather than 12000 (2 cruisers) for 2
seems better for the sprawling Parthia.
But it can go 48 hours at 27 knots, or - presuming no breakdowns - 24hours at full speed.
Quote
Xwarg (Live Coal), Parthian Corvette Minelayer laid down 1925
Displacement:
1,500 t light; 1,564 t standard; 1,865 t normal; 2,106 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(392.94 ft / 387.14 ft) x 36.75 ft x (10.93 / 11.88 ft)
(119.77 m / 118.00 m) x 11.20 m x (3.33 / 3.62 m)
Armament:
3 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 220 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 350 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides forward
2 raised mounts
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 2,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2 row quad mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 193 lbs / 87 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
3rd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
4th: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 33,798 shp / 25,213 Kw = 31.90 kts
Range 1,286nm at 27.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 542 tons
Complement:
141 - 184
Cost:
£0.634 million / $2.536 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 34 tons, 1.8 %
- Guns: 34 tons, 1.8 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.1 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 943 tons, 50.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 431 tons, 23.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 365 tons, 19.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 89 tons, 4.8 %
- Hull void weights: 5 tons
- Hull above water: 2 tons
- On freeboard deck: 75 tons
- Above deck: 8 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
541 lbs / 245 Kg = 10.3 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 11.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.15
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.420 / 0.436
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.54 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.68 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 21.65 ft / 6.60 m, 19.03 ft / 5.80 m
- Forward deck: 27.00 %, 19.03 ft / 5.80 m, 16.73 ft / 5.10 m
- Aft deck: 38.00 %, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m
- Average freeboard: 13.36 ft / 4.07 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 169.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148.7 %
Waterplane Area: 8,869 Square feet or 824 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 79 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 31 lbs/sq ft or 149 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.89
- Overall: 0.53
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Xwarg : " Live Coal"
Based on the hull of the new Babr class Corvette (oceanic destroyer), this is designed for a
high speed dash to lay mines in constested water.
A handful of guns are mounted for self defense.
The aft mount is raised to allow firing over the embarked mines on the stern.
The 542 hours of fuel allow for the following
speed choices
31.9 knots for 769nm in 24hours
30kts (80%power) for 930nm in 31hours
29kts (66% power) for 1030nm in 35 hours
27kts (50% power) for 1280nm in 48 hours
This allows 640nm out and 640nm back in a two day raid to place mines in enemy waters.
Trial speed - 32.53
7160nm at 14knots (fleet speed)
1286
Geared Drives give +15% range.
5T - Construction reserve
AD:
2.5t - FC
0t - SR Radio
5t- NF Gear
OD:
5t - MS Paravanes
70t - 70 Mines
HAW
1.5t - CO2 Air Compressor AC
HBW
Interestingly a 'Cruiser' version of Xwarg would have a top speed of 29knots rather than 32.53,
but 27knots would be ~75% power, giving the same 48hr range at speed.
The Mines would go up to 110t - a 50% increase.
The lower top speed means a seakeeping of 1.22
Floatation doubles.
Back to the more local minelayer.
Reduced the armor to 25mm protective deck, and changed the guns from 2x130 to 3x120,
Alternately, I could replace "B" with an 118mm Howitzer for both attacking subs and shore bombardment.
The rear 120 is superimposed so it is well above the mines & rails on deck.
Minestorage drops from 150 to 120... if a hostile ship is engaged, shedding the mines is high on the list.
Trimmed other things... and TA DAH... reduces from 660tons to 500 tons.
Which means I can build one in 6 months, which I prefer to tracking tonnage over two years.
It still has minesweeping ability as a back up, or can be used as a shallow draft gunboat.
The gunboat mode would be increased by swapping the 118mm in.
Lastly, one could strip the mines off and store troops or equipment aft.
Or I could make it a micro-seaplane tender.
ML- 3 E, Parthia Fleet Minelayer laid down 1925
Displacement:
500 t light; 546 t standard; 648 t normal; 729 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(163.42 ft / 160.76 ft) x 32.81 ft (Bulges 39.37 ft) x (8.53 / 9.39 ft)
(49.81 m / 49.00 m) x 10.00 m (Bulges 12.00 m) x (2.60 / 2.86 m)
Armament:
3 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x Single mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck forward
1 raised mount aft
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2 row quad mounts on sides forward
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 193 lbs / 87 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Protected deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 0.98" / 25 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 0.98" / 25 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.38" / 35 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 1,776 shp / 1,325 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 5,450nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 183 tons (23% coal)
Complement:
63 - 83
Cost:
£0.114 million / $0.457 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 34 tons, 5.2 %
- Guns: 34 tons, 5.2 %
Armour: 66 tons, 10.2 %
- Armament: 4 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 60 tons, 9.3 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 59 tons, 9.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 163 tons, 25.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 148 tons, 22.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 178 tons, 27.5 %
- Hull below water: 15 tons
- Bulge void weights: 8 tons
- Hull above water: 1 tons
- On freeboard deck: 150 tons
- Above deck: 4 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,499 lbs / 680 Kg = 28.4 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.51
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 12.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.13
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.40
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.420 / 0.429
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.08 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 12.68 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 15.09 ft / 4.60 m, 15.09 ft / 4.60 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 15.09 ft / 4.60 m, 15.09 ft / 4.60 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 6.89 ft / 2.10 m, 6.89 ft / 2.10 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 6.89 ft / 2.10 m, 6.89 ft / 2.10 m
- Average freeboard: 10.99 ft / 3.35 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 50.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.1 %
Waterplane Area: 3,288 Square feet or 305 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 144 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 35 lbs/sq ft or 172 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.63
- Longitudinal: 3.58
- Overall: 0.75
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The class features a 1m deep anti-mine bulge on each side, covering the entire side, and meant to provide standoff distance to avoid crushing.
Rsv : 8
AD
4t FC
OD
5t Paravanes
25t MSW gear
120t OD Minestowage aft
HABW
1t CO2 Compressor AC
HBW
15 Turbogenerator
Decks
4.60 : Forecastle Deck
2.10 : Main Deck
-.4 lower edge protective deck
-1.4 : Engineering
-1.99 : 0.6m Double Bottom (blends into bulge)
-2.0 : Keel
A probably not to be built ship,
Exploring the opportunity cost of a battlecruiser / fast battleship.
...the cost is quite high.
I think a Zemaka AC can do most of the same jobs for 60% the cost.
The Zemaka[i/]s can't reliably engage BCs 10,000 tons heavier,
but can take them at close ranges / night engagements.
Dahae, Parthian Battlecruiser laid down 1926
Displacement:
33,000 t light; 35,105 t standard; 41,686 t normal; 46,950 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(656.17 ft / 649.61 ft) x 111.55 ft x (31.17 / 34.50 ft)
(200.00 m / 198.00 m) x 34.00 m x (9.50 / 10.52 m)
Armament:
8 - 13.11" / 333 mm 44.0 cal guns - 1,433.01lbs / 650.00kg shells, 145 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1926 Model
2 x 4-gun mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
12 - 6.50" / 165 mm 44.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 210 per gun
Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1926 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 54.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 510 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1926 Model
4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1926 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
6 double raised mounts
32 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 10,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 13,558 lbs / 6,150 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 422.24 ft / 128.70 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: 1.57" / 40 mm 227.33 ft / 69.29 m 12.66 ft / 3.86 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
2.24" / 57 mm 422.24 ft / 128.70 m 29.89 ft / 9.11 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 75.46 ft / 23.00 m
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 10.0" / 255 mm
2nd: 5.91" / 150 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 4.92" / 125 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 4.53" / 115 mm
Forecastle: 1.57" / 40 mm Quarter deck: 4.53" / 115 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 12.60" / 320 mm, Aft 4.92" / 125 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 153,502 shp / 114,512 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 10,080nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 11,845 tons
Complement:
1,458 - 1,896
Cost:
£9.841 million / $39.364 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,428 tons, 5.8 %
- Guns: 2,428 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 11,814 tons, 28.3 %
- Belts: 3,575 tons, 8.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,048 tons, 2.5 %
- Armament: 2,337 tons, 5.6 %
- Armour Deck: 4,400 tons, 10.6 %
- Conning Towers: 454 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 4,914 tons, 11.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,208 tons, 31.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 8,686 tons, 20.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 637 tons, 1.5 %
- Hull below water: 32 tons
- Hull void weights: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 32 tons
- On freeboard deck: 155 tons
- Above deck: 318 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
70,046 lbs / 31,773 Kg = 62.2 x 13.1 " / 333 mm shells or 11.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 8.3 ft / 2.5 m
Roll period: 16.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.646 / 0.657
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.82 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 32.48 ft / 9.90 m, 30.02 ft / 9.15 m
- Forward deck: 35.00 %, 30.02 ft / 9.15 m, 27.56 ft / 8.40 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 19.36 ft / 5.90 m, 19.36 ft / 5.90 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 19.36 ft / 5.90 m, 19.36 ft / 5.90 m
- Average freeboard: 24.99 ft / 7.62 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.6 %
Waterplane Area: 55,307 Square feet or 5,138 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 131 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 191 lbs/sq ft or 934 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.91
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
A Parthian Battlecruiser, roughly the same size
as the Stormbringer class, 3 knots faster,
but much more weakly armed and armored.
Intended to operate at higher speeds
around the battleline in penetration raids,
or operating on long penetration raids.
An additional role is to serve as a '2nd Class Battleship' in the territories, being able to deploy long distances at high speed.
Range is sufficient for 3 weeks at 20 knots, allowing
it to threaten an enormous area.
Intended to both match up against the older Byzantine BCs and the newer Japanese BCs. The armor is intended to be adequate at longer range, while the ships speed and endurance are meant to keep the ship from the shorter ranges where it would be vulnerable.
As extensive independent operations are foreseen,
a heavy battery to smash destroyers, or ward off aircraft is mounted.
AD
243t Fire Control
25t LR Radio
25t Searchlight tower (NF)
25t Hulesmeyer proximity detector
OD
5t Paravanes
100t : 4x Armed Fighter Floatplanes
40t : 2x Scout Floatplanes
10t : 2x Catapults
HAW
32t Additional ventilation
HBW
32t Additional Pumps
So looking at 1925.1, I laid down a 14,500t version of the flight deck cruiser.
But the only version listed here was 14,000 tons.
Plus I consolidated my files from my laptop to my desktop.
...and seem to have not moved stuff from Feb and March, including the 14500.
So I took a stab at recreating it.
500 tons is not enough for a superimposed 'C' and the double hanger.
500 tons is not enough for a minimal TDS of 38mm.
So what was I spending that on ?
Well, I'm trying for 55-60mm deck armor.... so bumped that up from 50mm.
I wanted at least a 100mm belt, so bumped that up from 90mm
I want at least 1.10 stability, I'll shave that for smaller ones...so goosed the beam and dropped the BC.
Oh, and I'm trying for 8000nm range - I used to build in more as design reserve, but now the geared turbines do that.
Oh look, 500 tons heavier and meets all those parameters.
Yeah, guessing what I had was about this.
Quote
Avio Aristabara, Parthian Flight Deck Cruiser laid down 1925
Displacement:
14,500 t light; 15,413 t standard; 16,679 t normal; 17,693 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(590.55 ft / 583.99 ft) x 74.64 ft x (26.57 / 27.79 ft)
(180.00 m / 178.00 m) x 22.75 m x (8.10 / 8.47 m)
Armament:
8 - 9.06" / 230 mm 44.0 cal guns - 392.42lbs / 178.00kg shells, 260 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1925 Model
1 x 4-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward
1 x 4-gun mount on centreline, forward deck aft
16 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1925 Model
16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
16 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model
2 x 2 row quad mounts on sides amidships
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,101 lbs / 1,860 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 379.59 ft / 115.70 m 10.73 ft / 3.27 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.31" / 135 mm 2.95" / 75 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.17" / 55 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 2.17" / 55 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.38" / 35 mm, Aft 1.38" / 35 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 80,996 shp / 60,423 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 8,010nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,280 tons
Complement:
733 - 953
Cost:
£3.884 million / $15.538 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 957 tons, 5.7 %
- Guns: 957 tons, 5.7 %
Armour: 2,217 tons, 13.3 %
- Belts: 676 tons, 4.1 %
- Armament: 364 tons, 2.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,139 tons, 6.8 %
- Conning Towers: 39 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,630 tons, 15.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,391 tons, 38.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,180 tons, 13.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2,305 tons, 13.8 %
- Hull below water: 1,121 tons
- Hull void weights: 130 tons
- Hull above water: 828 tons
- On freeboard deck: 55 tons
- Above deck: 171 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,982 lbs / 12,239 Kg = 72.7 x 9.1 " / 230 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.97
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.504 / 0.511
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.82 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 26.61 ft / 8.11 m, 24.11 ft / 7.35 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 24.11 ft / 7.35 m, 21.65 ft / 6.60 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 39.70 ft / 12.10 m, 39.70 ft / 12.10 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 39.70 ft / 12.10 m, 39.70 ft / 12.10 m
- Average freeboard: 31.74 ft / 9.67 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 241.9 %
Waterplane Area: 29,147 Square feet or 2,708 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 131 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 125 lbs/sq ft or 612 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.84
- Longitudinal: 4.45
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
Avio Aristabara - 'From the skies spear bearer'
Flight Deck
A flight deck cruiser, it is expected to range ahead of the battleline with the scouting cruisers- both armored and normal. Gun combat may be a inevitable result.
A 16 plane troop, at a planned 75% servicability would take 20 aircraft.
Of these, 2x fighter lances (2x4) and
2x Scout/bomber lances will be initially embarked.
One spare lance of 2 Fighters and 2 Scout Bombers will be embarked.
If fighter launch rates promise to get more than 8 fighters into combat the number of scouts can be reduced.
Gun Deck : 6.6m
Single Hanger + 5.5 m
Aircraft 20 desired = 20 x 80 = 1600 tons.
Needed Waterplane = 1300m2 x 2 for FDC = 2600
Actual Waterplane = 2703
The mainflight deck takes up 89m (292ft) with the cantilevered section extending it slightly. The USN in this period was seeking a clear flight deck of at least 234ft.
The 'Fore' and 'Aft' islands are actually two islands structures near the front of the flight deck, joined by a Flying Bridge in an "H".
The first crash barrier is before the H, but a large net between the rear of Islands serves as the final crash barrier. This can be reefed up to allow planes to pass beneath.
One elevator lifts planes between the H, where they can move forward to the hydraulic catapults. This also allows landed planes to taxi forward beyond the net and be taken down to the hanger.
The other elevator is at the aft end of the flight deck, bringing planes up to prep to launch and warm up on the deck. They then taxi forward to acutally take off.
Potentiallly they could start their take off run from the aft deck, but
Navigating the H structure when seeking to take off will not proove popular in the long run.
Future refits will likely fix that.
Guns
The 'A' and 'C' turrets are widely spaced on the foredeck, but 'C' is not superimposed. Rather a section of flight deck is cantelivered out to just overhang the top of 'C'.
If 'C' fires at shallow angles foreward, it will hit 'A' for several points off the bow. 'C' can still elevate and fire over 'A' for long distance shots' or fire at targets on the port or starboard quarters, to either side of 'A'.
Both 'A' and 'C' can of course engage on either beam.
The 230L44 gun can engage enemy vessels at all ranges, being lethal against cruisers at most ranges, and capable of engaging enemy armored cruisers encountered at night or in poor weather. The two turrets allow sustained 4 gun ladders.
The guns are viewed as useful whenever the planes are not available, night, poor weather, no planes, all planes launched...these conditions make the guns important.
Casements along the sides provide destroyer defense.
The 57mm guns are mounted in sponsons along the edges of the flight deck.
The Quad 15mm (2 paired GAST 15mms) are mounted high on the conning towers, on the seaward side.
The "Fore" and "Aft" cons are really twin islands sited on either side of the foreward edge of the flight deck, aft of 'C'. A flying bridge arching over the flight deck connects the two for an "H" shape.
Armor
The Belt armor covers from +1.6 to-1.6 and is angled 12 degrees outboard.
3.2m/cos(12) = 3.271 = 3.27
The deck armor will defeat splinters up to 300mm, and hits from most guns at all ranges.
Misc Wt.
Resv : 130t
AD
96t FC
25t LR radio
0t SR radio
10t SR radio - dedicated A/C control
25t Hulesmeyer device
25t Night Fighting searchlights and gear
OD
5t Paravanes
50t 2x hydraulic catapults
HAW
800t 10x Fixed Wheel Aircraft
14t Additional fire suppression
14t CO2 Air Compressor AC
HBW
800t 10x Fixed Wheel Aircraft
178t Torpedo Nets
15t Enhanced Hydrophones
70t Additional AvGas in doublewall tanks (60t/10t)
30t Additional munitions
14t Additional fire suppression
14t Additional pumps
12.10 Flight Deck
6.60 Weather deck/Hanger Deck
4.10 Battery Deck (Casements)
1.60 Armor Deck, Top Main Belt
-.90
-1.60 Bottom Main belt
-3.40
-6.90 Engineering
-7.27 Double Bottom
The discussion on max battlewagons led to the realization that I had not even TRIED
a 20x 435 vessel.
So while I Thought it was unwise, I did not know.
Now this is not a fully polished design, more proof of concept.
That concept is apparently really really big.
..and only takes 10 short years to build.
I would need a bigger dry dock though.
The belt is meant to be inclined,
The deck is meant to have a splinter layer below
I do need to explore using the enormous beam for an amid-ships runway....
Naiyoshangha, Parthia Behemoth laid down 1927
Displacement:
109,802 t light; 117,645 t standard; 127,133 t normal; 134,723 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(984.25 ft / 984.25 ft) x 187.01 ft (Bulges 196.85 ft) x (32.81 / 34.61 ft)
(300.00 m / 300.00 m) x 57.00 m (Bulges 60.00 m) x (10.00 / 10.55 m)
Armament:
20 - 17.13" / 435 mm 50.0 cal guns - 3,190.53lbs / 1,447.20kg shells, 140 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1927 Model
4 x 4-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
1 x 4-gun mount on centreline amidships (forward deck)
20 - 6.50" / 165 mm 50.0 cal guns - 145.10lbs / 65.82kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1927 Model
10 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
20 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 22.43lbs / 10.18kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
8 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
80 - 1.18" / 30.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.92lbs / 0.42kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
20 x 4-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
20 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 67,235 lbs / 30,497 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 17.7" / 450 mm 639.76 ft / 195.00 m 17.06 ft / 5.20 m
Ends: 3.94" / 100 mm 344.46 ft / 104.99 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -15.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
3.54" / 90 mm 639.76 ft / 195.00 m 31.89 ft / 9.72 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 108.27 ft / 33.00 m
- Hull Bulges:
0.35" / 9 mm 639.76 ft / 195.00 m 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 19.3" / 490 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 17.7" / 450 mm
2nd: 3.94" / 100 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 2.95" / 75 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.24" / 6 mm 0.24" / 6 mm 0.24" / 6 mm
- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 7.87" / 200 mm
Forecastle: 2.95" / 75 mm Quarter deck: 5.91" / 150 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 1.77" / 45 mm, Aft 3.94" / 100 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 71,746 shp / 53,522 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 17,079 tons
Complement:
3,366 - 4,376
Cost:
£36.478 million / $145.914 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 12,443 tons, 9.8 %
- Guns: 12,443 tons, 9.8 %
Armour: 43,100 tons, 33.9 %
- Belts: 9,676 tons, 7.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 2,675 tons, 2.1 %
- Bulges: 179 tons, 0.2 %
- Armament: 10,346 tons, 8.1 %
- Armour Deck: 19,914 tons, 15.7 %
- Conning Towers: 311 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,265 tons, 1.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 49,419 tons, 38.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 17,331 tons, 13.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2,575 tons, 2.0 %
- Hull below water: 730 tons
- Bulge void weights: 200 tons
- Hull above water: 200 tons
- On freeboard deck: 200 tons
- Above deck: 1,245 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
294,678 lbs / 133,664 Kg = 117.3 x 17.1 " / 435 mm shells or 82.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.48
Metacentric height 25.1 ft / 7.7 m
Roll period: 16.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.27
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low forecastle, rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.700 / 0.703
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 31.37 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 31 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 35.10 ft / 10.70 m, 31.99 ft / 9.75 m
- Forward deck: 40.00 %, 32.64 ft / 9.95 m, 30.18 ft / 9.20 m
- Aft deck: 25.00 %, 21.98 ft / 6.70 m, 21.98 ft / 6.70 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 21.98 ft / 6.70 m, 21.98 ft / 6.70 m
- Average freeboard: 28.01 ft / 8.54 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 232.0 %
Waterplane Area: 147,530 Square feet or 13,706 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 120 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 313 lbs/sq ft or 1,526 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.06
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Nairyosangha is an angle of fire, speaker of truth.
The 3rd & 4th cruisers of Royal Nisean XII class completes in 1925.5.
6 x T2 180 (power assist), 125mm belt, 50mm deck, 30kt speed,
Traditional overgunned over armored and slightly slow Parthian ships.
First two have been in service long enough to be past trials.
Repeat them in 1926, or go with an alternate?
(reply 218 : https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7658.msg100247/topicseen.html#msg100247 (https://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,7658.msg100247/topicseen.html#msg100247))
The Alternate would be the
Omaha inspired cruisers posted back for 1923.
With the A/B and X/Y guns backed by the double-stacked casements,
That gives 6 guns fore/aft for chases, and 8 on broadside.
While the Omahas had 6" guns, these have 7" (180mm)
and are much better armored.
The Omaha - H, at 32knots and a 90mm belt set 1.6m above WL to -2.0 below WL
The Omaha - J at 30 knots and a 125mm belt set 3.9m above WL to -2.0 below WL
They exceed 8000nm at 16 knots to allow for aggressive high speed scouting around
the battleline.
Overall, I think laying down more Royal Neissans works, but the Omaha-J has some merit.
I rather like the extensive side armor.
Quote
Omaha H
Omaha H 180mm, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1926
Displacement:
8,002 t light; 8,439 t standard; 9,367 t normal; 10,110 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(553.41 ft / 547.90 ft) x 55.77 ft x (21.85 / 23.14 ft)
(168.68 m / 167.00 m) x 17.00 m x (6.66 / 7.05 m)
Armament:
4 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 198.42lbs / 90.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1926 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 198.42lbs / 90.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1926 Model
8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 410 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1926 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 800 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,506 lbs / 1,137 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 356.14 ft / 108.55 m 12.07 ft / 3.68 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -15.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.77" / 45 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.77" / 45 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.91" / 150 mm, Aft 1.77" / 45 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 73,479 shp / 54,816 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 8,400nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,670 tons
Complement:
475 - 618
Cost:
£2.651 million / $10.604 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 466 tons, 5.0 %
- Guns: 466 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 1,931 tons, 20.6 %
- Belts: 1,040 tons, 11.1 %
- Armament: 164 tons, 1.8 %
- Armour Deck: 654 tons, 7.0 %
- Conning Towers: 73 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 2,352 tons, 25.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,877 tons, 30.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,366 tons, 14.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 375 tons, 4.0 %
- Hull below water: 40 tons
- Hull void weights: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 33 tons
- On freeboard deck: 105 tons
- Above deck: 97 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,485 lbs / 4,302 Kg = 53.3 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 15.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.77
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.491 / 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.82 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.41 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.92 ft / 7.90 m, 23.46 ft / 7.15 m
- Forward deck: 35.00 %, 23.43 ft / 7.14 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
- Average freeboard: 18.85 ft / 5.74 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.8 %
Waterplane Area: 20,195 Square feet or 1,876 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 92 lbs/sq ft or 451 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.87
- Longitudinal: 1.51
- Overall: 0.92
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Modeled on USS Omaha
with above-deck casements for end-on fire
and 180 vs. the US 6"
The belt is facehardened 150mm, outsloped 15 degrees
and capped by the armor deck.
3.6m/cos(12) = 3.6804= 3.68m
47t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
25t - Searchlight tower (NF)
18t - 2TT3 21" 3t
25+5 - Fighter Float + Gunpwdr CAT
57t - 10% rotating wt Power Assist for 180L47
8t - CO2 Compresser A/C
25t - Enhanced Fire Ext.
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
25t - Extra Pumps.
Decks
+6.4 Forecastle deck
+4.1 Weather deck
+1.6 Top belt, Armored Deck
-0.9
-2.0 Bottom main belt
-3.4
-6.4 Engineering
-6.66 Keel
Quote
Omaha J 180mm, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1926
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,445 t standard; 9,715 t normal; 10,731 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(520.53 ft / 515.09 ft) x 55.77 ft x (24.61 / 26.50 ft)
(158.66 m / 157.00 m) x 17.00 m x (7.50 / 8.08 m)
Armament:
4 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 198.42lbs / 90.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1926 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 198.42lbs / 90.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1926 Model
8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 410 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1926 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 800 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,506 lbs / 1,137 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 334.81 ft / 102.05 m 19.78 ft / 6.03 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.77" / 45 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.77" / 45 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.91" / 150 mm, Aft 1.77" / 45 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 67,942 shp / 50,684 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,374nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,286 tons
Complement:
489 - 636
Cost:
£2.565 million / $10.260 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 466 tons, 4.8 %
- Guns: 466 tons, 4.8 %
Armour: 2,190 tons, 22.5 %
- Belts: 1,342 tons, 13.8 %
- Armament: 164 tons, 1.7 %
- Armour Deck: 609 tons, 6.3 %
- Conning Towers: 75 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 2,175 tons, 22.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,744 tons, 28.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,715 tons, 17.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 425 tons, 4.4 %
- Hull below water: 40 tons
- Hull void weights: 125 tons
- Hull above water: 33 tons
- On freeboard deck: 105 tons
- Above deck: 122 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
10,303 lbs / 4,673 Kg = 57.9 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 15.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.80
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.481 / 0.493
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.24 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.70 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.59 ft / 7.80 m, 23.29 ft / 7.10 m
- Forward deck: 45.00 %, 23.29 ft / 7.10 m, 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
- Aft deck: 20.00 %, 12.80 ft / 3.90 m, 12.80 ft / 3.90 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 12.80 ft / 3.90 m, 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
- Average freeboard: 19.29 ft / 5.88 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.4 %
Waterplane Area: 18,817 Square feet or 1,748 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 91 lbs/sq ft or 442 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.83
- Longitudinal: 1.88
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Modeled on USS Omaha
with above-deck casements for end-on fire
and 180 vs. the US 6"
The "J" varient is 1 knot slower than the "I",
using that to raise the armor belt 1 deck level, to the weather deck level,
and carry the forecastle deck further aft for better seakeeping.
The belt is facehardened 125mm, outsloped 12 degrees
and capped by the armor deck. This carries to the -2.0m level to guard against diving shells, as well as wave period exposing the belt.
5.9m/cos(12) = 6.0318= 6.03m
This makes a much larger area of hull well protected, and vastly increases the floatation.
125t Wt reserve
47t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
25t - Searchlight tower (NF)
25t - Hulesmeyere station keeping device
18t - 2TT3 21" 3t
25+5 - Fighter Float + Gunpwdr CAT
57t - 10% rotating wt Power Assist for 180L47
8t - CO2 Compresser A/C
25t - Enhanced Fire Ext.
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
10t- Sonar
25t - Extra Pumps.
Decks
+6.3 Forecastle deck
+3.9 Weather deck, Armored Deck, top of Belt.
+1.4 3rd Deck
-1.1 2nd deck
-2.0 Bottom main belt
-3.6 1st deck
-5.95 Engineering (pierces 1st deck)
-6.45 Double Bottom
-7.5 Keel
I think it's a no Brainer. 12 guns for a 12 gun broadside is substantially better than 12 guns for an 8 gun broadside. And the 32kts is nice, but as your principal possible opposition runs slower ships, you have no need.
That's generally where I was coming down.
The Single vs. Two-gun does ameliorate some of the firepower difference.
The Royal Niseans have 4 forward at 90% = 3.6, and 12 broadside at 90%= 10.8.
So 60% of the fore/aft throwweight, and 35% more broadside throwweight.
The broader belt of the Omaha-J is NICE....but likely doesn't offset the barrel differential.
So the real question is if the extra speed and end-on fire of the Omaha-H brings anything special to the table.
The Omaha-H, with the 90mm inclined belt, seems marginally armored, but the deck is good.
The 'Chase' bit comes in here, with the 6 singles bearing forward and high speed and high fuel, they can run down slower ships.
The 32knot speed both means they can work around the four Zemaka 8x255mm, 200mmB/65mm deck, 31kts ACs
but also can try to keep the range open vs. other cruisers, offsetting the belt difference.
note to self : check range for 180L47s at max casement elevation (22? 25?)
I would say that 32kt isn't but so different than 30. Rule of thumb is you want a 3kt speed difference at a minimum to dictate an engagement. You might find 32kt to be useful. I've got a bunch of 32kt ships, but war experience seems to bear out that a 30kt ship with more armor is better than a 32kt ship without.
I have a bit of speed envy watching foreign cruisers zipping around....
Most of my Cruisers are 28-29, so 32 "seems like" a good margin over those, and high enough to not be slow for a while, allowing the ships to serve as the advance scout line, or detached duty in theaters they could be outnumbered. The Royal Niseans, Mouleks, and Varyu/Vata are the only 30+ knot cruisers.
I view slowly increasing that speed as a bit of future proofing. Varyu/Vata were FAST when laid down in 1911.
Still, the Royal Niseans seem like solid ships, and almost have enough guns.... so I think I will stick to them a bit longer.
But yes, between weather, seakeeping, hull fouling, and boiler wear, "max speed" can be a bit variable.
Not to mention different nations had varying safety margins on their engines, and some countries 'cheated' on trials by testing incomplete ships.
There's a bit in Friedman's Destroyer book that alludes to the idea that the DDs really didn't make their speed in actual conditions.
For combats I take a look at the weather and sea state vs. SS seakeeping and freeboard/bow.
And now to a different topic.
The choice was made to do the simpler refit of the Asbara class ACs (8x10"), which is finishing in 1925.5.
I may eventually go back and spend more on them, but for now that will give me 8 ACs with 8x 255L47 guns.
Due to the heavier shell and better gun tech, it's a better gun than the old 255L50.
The same will apply to the 333mm gun, which I designed for replacing the
Gilgamesh class's 345L40.
The
Gilgamesh class currently serves as an ageing tripwire in the territories, but if the NPCs are swanning around with battlefleets
like that, I want to improve the
Gilgamesh and
Enki classes so that my old PDs and DNs can serve as a second battlefleet and
deter folks like the Mayans if my main fleet is busy elsewhere. If refitted, those 6 ships would have been interesting vs the Mayans.
Plus I'd actually feel pretty good about trying to force a night combat with these, they have...decent...belt armor.
The
Gilgamesh class was designed back when ranges were still expected to be 6-8000m, and her belt armor was meant to defeat her own gun at that range.
That's why it's a 420mm belt with a 65mm protective deck backing it.
There's two versions of this refit.
This is Version 1 - Electric drive, but no TDS.
Total : $15.643, 5.9bp
Means it costs me the tonnage of a cruiser....an eyewatering expensive cruiser, but I can find those funds.
Version 2... The original was turbine driven, so doesn't HAVE to go to electric,
so the 2nd version is geared and puts tonnage into a TDS. I believe it also sacrifices the internal box armor for that.
But I have only done the costing out of version 1 so far.
Quote
Gilgamesh R1925, Parthian Dreadnaught laid down 1906 (Engine 1925)
Displacement:
22,941 t light; 24,570 t standard; 26,083 t normal; 27,293 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(538.06 ft / 531.50 ft) x 88.58 ft (Bulges 98.43 ft) x (29.53 / 30.77 ft)
(164.00 m / 162.00 m) x 27.00 m (Bulges 30.00 m) x (9.00 / 9.38 m)
Armament:
10 - 13.11" / 333 mm 43.0 cal guns - 1,333.80lbs / 605.00kg shells, 99 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
1 x Twin mount on centreline, forward deck aft
16 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 77.16lbs / 35.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1913 Model
8 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 77.16lbs / 35.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1913 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 300 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 500 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 15,580 lbs / 7,067 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 16.5" / 420 mm 345.47 ft / 105.30 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 3.94" / 100 mm 185.99 ft / 56.69 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Upper: 5.31" / 135 mm 312.66 ft / 95.30 m 11.98 ft / 3.65 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Hull Bulges:
0.47" / 12 mm 345.47 ft / 105.30 m 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.5" / 420 mm 7.09" / 180 mm 15.0" / 380 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm
3rd: 5.31" / 135 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 5.28" / 134 mm
Forecastle: 2.36" / 60 mm Quarter deck: 2.36" / 60 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 16.54" / 420 mm, Aft 2.95" / 75 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 27,734 shp / 20,690 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 7,100nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,723 tons
Complement:
1,026 - 1,334
Cost:
£2.081 million / $8.324 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,348 tons, 9.0 %
- Guns: 2,348 tons, 9.0 %
Armour: 10,205 tons, 39.1 %
- Belts: 3,637 tons, 13.9 %
- Bulges: 149 tons, 0.6 %
- Armament: 3,036 tons, 11.6 %
- Armour Deck: 3,014 tons, 11.6 %
- Conning Towers: 369 tons, 1.4 %
Machinery: 900 tons, 3.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,647 tons, 33.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,142 tons, 12.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 840 tons, 3.2 %
- Hull below water: 412 tons
- Bulge void weights: 10 tons
- Hull above water: 48 tons
- On freeboard deck: 60 tons
- Above deck: 310 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
42,425 lbs / 19,244 Kg = 37.7 x 13.1 " / 333 mm shells or 5.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 5.5 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 17.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.54
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.591 / 0.593
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.40 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.05 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.39 ft / 7.74 m, 22.54 ft / 6.87 m
- Forward deck: 43.00 %, 22.54 ft / 6.87 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Aft deck: 22.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 18.19 ft / 5.54 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 55.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113.2 %
Waterplane Area: 34,146 Square feet or 3,172 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 194 lbs/sq ft or 948 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.99
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
1925 refurbishment of the Gilgamesh class.
Subtotal Costs :
A : Guns and Machinery
main : 584+1239 : 1823
second : 71+268 : 339
tertiary : 54+110 : 164
quint : 0.7+.53 : 1.23
Machinery : 900t
B: Armor + Func wt
Gun armor - main : 696
Sec :97
Tert : 110
Quad : 1.5
Quin : 3.9
+Deck (below) : 931
func Misc : 830
C: Trim only, no hull change
D: Fuel Ammo, stores
Magazines (unchanged or less tons) : 1107
Fuel : 2723
Subtotals :
Base cost : 20% of 22990/1000 = $4.598
A: 2327.23+900 = 3227.23 /1000 = $(3.23*2), 3.23bp = $ 6.46, 3.23bp
B : 1835.5639 armor + 830 = 2665.5639 /1000 = $2.67 , 2.67bp
C : --
D: $(1107+2723)/2000 = $1.915
Total : $15.643, 5.9bp
New armanents 345->333, 165 ->130
bulletproof shields for 57mm , new 15mm
+Armor
35mm box around magazines + machinery :179
Laminate +30mm main deck (70/100/70) : 752
total : 931
Leave upper deck at 35mm
Box included in main deck armorwt.
Effective main belt + PD : 420 + (((65+30*.8)*1.5)/2) = 487mm
Effective verticle : 65+(30*.8)+(35/2) = 106.5mm
35mm box around mag & machinery is backing both of these.
Reserve : 10t
Misc Wt :
AD
235 FC 1918
25 LR radio
25 Hulesmeyer
25 Searchlight Tower (NF)
OD
5 Paravanes
40 2x Scoutfloatplanes
5 Gunpowder Cat
10 Hanger
HAW
23 CO2 Compressor AC
25 Additional pumps
HBW
162 Torpedo Nets
225 Turbogenerators
25t Additional Pumps
Misc. Weight : 1922 BR
1t Const Resv.
AD
243t 1918 FC
25t LR Radio
5t Basic Night Fighting
OD
115t Additional Ventilation and evaporative cooling
5t Paravanes
HBW
162t - torpedo nets
40t - 4x TT, 2 each beam, 20 x 18" Torpedoes
+ 6.0 forecastle, Top of upperbelt for 66%, 30mm protective deck
+3.5 weather, Top of upper belt for 33%
+1.5 Top of Main Belt
+1.0 3rd , Crown of 65mm protective deck
-1.5 2nd , bottom of belt, edge of protective deck, top of bulge
-4.0 1st
-8.56 Engineering Deck
This is version 2, a Reconstruction, with the higher base costs.
But in addition to the new guns, and laminated decks,
it upgrades the old oil-sprayed coal direct drive turbines to oil-fired geared turbines
and fits that shiny new power plant deep in the hull behind a TDS.
Not a first line battleship...in the daytime.
But a very tough 2nd rate battleship.
Certainly capable of opposing NPC battlewagons, or serving in the rear of the Parthian line.
The price of the reconstruction is even more wince-worthy,
but BP is the limiting factor for Parthia...and that's high too.
But still...just a cruiser.
And I'd rather have this than a 9400ton cruiser...I think.
Total :
BP :
9.35953 BP
$18.00916,
Quote
Gilgamesh Recon1925, Parthian Dreadnaught laid down 1906 (Engine 1925)
Displacement:
22,956 t light; 24,570 t standard; 26,083 t normal; 27,293 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(538.06 ft / 531.50 ft) x 88.58 ft (Bulges 98.43 ft) x (29.53 / 30.77 ft)
(164.00 m / 162.00 m) x 27.00 m (Bulges 30.00 m) x (9.00 / 9.38 m)
Armament:
10 - 13.11" / 333 mm 43.0 cal guns - 1,333.80lbs / 605.00kg shells, 99 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
1 x Twin mount on centreline, forward deck aft
16 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1913 Model
8 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, majority forward
6 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 15,738 lbs / 7,139 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 16.5" / 420 mm 345.47 ft / 105.30 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 3.94" / 100 mm 312.66 ft / 95.30 m 11.98 ft / 3.65 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.50" / 38 mm 345.47 ft / 105.30 m 28.08 ft / 8.56 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 55.77 ft / 17.00 m
- Hull Bulges:
0.35" / 9 mm 345.47 ft / 105.30 m 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.5" / 420 mm 7.09" / 180 mm 15.0" / 380 mm
2nd: 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 5.31" / 135 mm
Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm Quarter deck: 2.76" / 70 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 16.54" / 420 mm, Aft 2.95" / 75 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 27,734 shp / 20,690 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 7,100nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,723 tons
Complement:
1,026 - 1,334
Cost:
£2.111 million / $8.445 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,392 tons, 9.2 %
- Guns: 2,392 tons, 9.2 %
Armour: 10,069 tons, 38.6 %
- Belts: 3,140 tons, 12.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 537 tons, 2.1 %
- Bulges: 111 tons, 0.4 %
- Armament: 2,919 tons, 11.2 %
- Armour Deck: 2,992 tons, 11.5 %
- Conning Towers: 369 tons, 1.4 %
Machinery: 900 tons, 3.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,835 tons, 33.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,127 tons, 12.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 760 tons, 2.9 %
- Hull below water: 187 tons
- Bulge void weights: 150 tons
- Hull above water: 48 tons
- On freeboard deck: 60 tons
- Above deck: 315 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
42,620 lbs / 19,332 Kg = 37.8 x 13.1 " / 333 mm shells or 8.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 5.5 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 17.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.74
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.50
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.591 / 0.593
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.40 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.05 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.39 ft / 7.74 m, 22.54 ft / 6.87 m
- Forward deck: 45.00 %, 22.54 ft / 6.87 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Aft deck: 20.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 18.38 ft / 5.60 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.1 %
Waterplane Area: 34,146 Square feet or 3,172 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 198 lbs/sq ft or 965 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.88
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
The reconstructed & TDS version of the refurbished ship
The redone engines can ft in the reduced beam.
The TDS can only be twinned 19mm (38mm) bulkheads,
but can be 5m inside the hull, behind a 1.5m deep anti-mine bulge, for 6.5m total depth.
Which should be very very difficult to penetrate.
To save weight, the engines need to be geared, not electric, and the end belts eliminated
The 35mm box around magazines and machinery can also be dropped.
The 165mm guns are kept, but the casements are removed
Upper belt is replaced with a lighter 100mm, but still facehardened and will
turn all light QF and bombs. Capped by upper deck.
1925 RECONSTRUCTION of the Gilgamesh class.
Subtotal Costs :
A : Guns and Machinery
main : 584+1239 : 1823
second : 115+426 : 541
tertiary : 8.4+20 : 28.4
quart : 0.7+.53 : 1.23
Machinery : 900t
Subtotal A: 3,293.63
B: Armor + Func wt
Gun armor - main : 696
Sec :116
Tert : 110
Quad : 2.0
Quin : 3.9
+Upper belt : 667
+Deck (below) : (2992-2078) = 914
+reskinned bulge : 111
+TDS : 537
func Misc : 610
Subtotal B : 3766.9
C: Trim, Forecastle extended aft, refit hull
Change in light weight -34 tons.
D: Fuel Ammo, stores
Magazines ) : 1092
Fuel : 2723
Subtotal D : 3815
Subtotals :
$ Base cost : 25% of 22990/1000 = $5.7475
BP Base Cost : 22.99/10 = 2.299 BP
A: 3293.63 / 1000 = 3.29363 BP, $6.58726
B : 3766.9 / 1000 = 3.7669, $3.7669
C : Change in Lt disp x 2.... negative (null) cost.
D: $(3815)/2000 = $1.9075
Total :
BP :
9.35953 BP
$18.00916,
New armanents 345->333, 165 ->130
bulletproof shields for 57mm , new 15mm
+Armor 914
Laminate +40mm to main and quarter -- /65/30mm deck
Effective main belt + PD : 420 + (((65+40*.8)*1.5)/2) = 492.75mm
Effective verticle : 65+(40*.8)+(35/2) = 114.5mm
Reserve : 50t
Misc Wt :
AD
240 FC 1918
25 LR radio
25 Hulesmeyer
25 Searchlight Tower (NF)
OD
5 Paravanes
40 2x Scoutfloatplanes
5 Gunpowder Cat
10 Hanger
HAW
23 CO2 Compressor AC
25 Additional pumps
HBW
162 Torpedo Nets
25t Additional Pumps
+ 6.0 forecastle, Top of upperbelt for 66%, 30mm protective deck
+3.5 weather, Top of upper belt for 33%
+1.5 Top of Main Belt
+1.0 3rd , Crown of 65mm protective deck
-1.5 2nd , bottom of belt, edge of protective deck, top of bulge
-4.0 1st
-8.56 Engineering Deck
Quote...The price of the reconstruction is even more wince-worthy,
but BP is the limiting factor for Parthia...and that's high too...
Byzantine reconstruction for AC2, BB3 & BB4 in 1926-27 are expensive too, I have to significantly reduce LD for new hulls. But these old ships are always useful & they make numbers.
Similarly, the 8PDNs; BB1 and BB2 with their 254 guns require a big AC or DN to defeat them... They are also numbers.
Idem for 6 Parthian PDNs,
Simurgh, Rokh & Tortoise.
My encyclopedia fell behind last fall, my available time went to the Mayan war, not Parthia.
The PDNs have been refurbished- it's in the Parthian ship design thread and various turn reports.
The refit and rearming of the Asbara class cruisers is finishing 1925.5.
I'm hoping to get the Encyclopedia and OOB all caught up by month's end.
On the Gilgamesh, I'm really trying to decide if a TDS is worth it.
Installing one is what triggers "Reconstruction", and drives the cost in $ and BP up.
Having a TDS drastically reduces the chance of a critical hit.
The Parthians use torpedo nets, but are well aware they fail ~30% of the time.
It's much cheaper without one, but I'd hate for the lack of one to be why I lost a big ship.
...but the 6BP vs. 9BP cost difference matters to my budget.
I am working on another version of the Reconstruction, but the cost will be about the same.
I think it's not unreasonable to spend another 3 BP to get the TDS if you're already spending 6 to refurbish her.
Note - unless you're vanguarding it all - you'll get a decent amount of scrap back from junking the old guns, end armor, and engines, so that would knock the cost down a bit.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on May 11, 2023, 06:19:42 PM
I think it's not unreasonable to spend another 3 BP to get the TDS if you're already spending 6 to refurbish her.
Note - unless you're vanguarding it all - you'll get a decent amount of scrap back from junking the old guns, end armor, and engines, so that would knock the cost down a bit.
Fair or Foul, Snip's efforts to simplify rules really doesn't address scrapping parts. That may have been deliberate to keep the 'really detailed' and 'let it go' folks at the same balance.
So I have not planned on that for any of my refits.
I do mean to copy others and note the artillery removed. There may come a time when 345L40 monitors seem attractive, and the 165L45 guns were QF, and so still of merit.
Between the Smurghs, Gilgameshes and Enkis, that's 68 x 345L40....hey I wonder if I can figure out how to mount all 68 on ONE monitor.... I may need two monitors...
Reconstruction Version 2
A bit more tinkering with the TDS Reconstruction.
Total :
BP : 9.42653 = 9.43
$ : 18.11616 = 18.12
Quote
Gilgamesh Recon1925, Parthian Dreadnaught laid down 1906 (Engine 1925)
Displacement:
22,956 t light; 24,570 t standard; 26,083 t normal; 27,293 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(538.06 ft / 531.50 ft) x 88.58 ft (Bulges 98.43 ft) x (29.53 / 30.77 ft)
(164.00 m / 162.00 m) x 27.00 m (Bulges 30.00 m) x (9.00 / 9.38 m)
Armament:
10 - 13.11" / 333 mm 43.0 cal guns - 1,333.80lbs / 605.00kg shells, 99 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1917 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
1 x Twin mount on centreline, forward deck aft
16 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1913 Model
8 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, majority forward
6 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1917 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 15,738 lbs / 7,139 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 16.5" / 420 mm 345.47 ft / 105.30 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: 1.38" / 35 mm 185.99 ft / 56.69 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Upper: 2.95" / 75 mm 312.66 ft / 95.30 m 11.98 ft / 3.65 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.81" / 46 mm 345.47 ft / 105.30 m 28.08 ft / 8.56 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 52.49 ft / 16.00 m
- Hull Bulges:
0.35" / 9 mm 345.47 ft / 105.30 m 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.5" / 420 mm 7.09" / 180 mm 15.0" / 380 mm
2nd: 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm 1.38" / 35 mm
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Protected deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 5.31" / 135 mm
Forecastle: 1.18" / 30 mm Quarter deck: 2.76" / 70 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 16.54" / 420 mm, Aft 2.95" / 75 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 27,734 shp / 20,690 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 7,100nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,723 tons
Complement:
1,026 - 1,334
Cost:
£2.111 million / $8.445 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,433 tons, 9.3 %
- Guns: 2,433 tons, 9.3 %
Armour: 10,261 tons, 39.3 %
- Belts: 3,065 tons, 11.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 650 tons, 2.5 %
- Bulges: 111 tons, 0.4 %
- Armament: 3,073 tons, 11.8 %
- Armour Deck: 2,992 tons, 11.5 %
- Conning Towers: 369 tons, 1.4 %
Machinery: 900 tons, 3.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,447 tons, 32.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,127 tons, 12.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 913 tons, 3.5 %
- Hull below water: 412 tons
- Bulge void weights: 75 tons
- Hull above water: 48 tons
- On freeboard deck: 60 tons
- Above deck: 318 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
38,831 lbs / 17,614 Kg = 34.5 x 13.1 " / 333 mm shells or 8.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 18.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.34
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.591 / 0.593
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.40 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.05 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.43 ft / 7.75 m, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forward deck: 25.00 %, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m, 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Aft deck: 40.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 11.48 ft / 3.50 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 16.72 ft / 5.10 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98.4 %
Waterplane Area: 34,146 Square feet or 3,172 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 194 lbs/sq ft or 946 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.63
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
V2 -
Moves the 2-gun 165mm to turrets, still just splinter armor, but should
ensure a good rotation and engagement rate.
This also reconfigures the forecastle deck from 43% to 30%
Not sure what that means for Q barbette, never have figured out how SS accounts
for barbette armor, I think off average freeboard, instead of location.
Anyhow, lowering a barbette is far more doable than raising one, and it is recon.
Costs a little seakeeping, but
frees up top weight and allows the
TDS to have an additional 8mm unpierced
flooding bulkhead inboard.
The casements and upperbelt are still replaced,
but with an single 75mm upper belt.
This allows the end belts to be retained, albeit thinner.
The minimal weight for turbogenerators
is now 'affordable' , allowing electric drive.
This means the TDS can be 5.5m deep + 1.5m bulge on each side.
Conceptually that means :
The 2x19mm holding bulkhead can be 4.0m inside the hull, and 5.5m from the outer bulge,
plenty of room for liquid/void compartments with mild steel separators.
and then a 1.5m wide passage with an 8mm unpierced flooding bulkhead will both control
leaks/displacement, and provide damage control access behind the TDS.
Still not as thick my most recent ships, but from what I understand of the theory of TDS,
should be one that would perform well 'real world', mainly due to the standoff distance.
The Electric drive means unit layout, and short propeller shafts, better maneuverability plus fuel savings,
giving a 8,165nm range.
Armor as previous :
+Armor 914
Laminate +40mm to main and quarter -- /65/30mm deck
Effective main belt + PD : 420 + (((65+40*.8)*1.5)/2) = 492.75mm
Effective vertical : 65+(40*.8)+(35/2) = 114.5mm
Should make it a tough ship, hard to put down.
Subtotal Costs :
A : Guns and Machinery
main : 584+1239 : 1823
second : 115+466 : 581
tertiary : 8.4+20 : 28.4
quart : 0.7+.53 : 1.23
Machinery : 900t
Subtotal A: 3,333.63
B: Armor + Func wt
Gun armor - main : 696 (just turret)
Sec :215 (all new)
Tert : 2
Quad : 2.0
Quin : 3.9
+Upper belt : 499
+end belts : 93
+Deck (below) : (2992-2078) = 914
+reskinned bulge : 111
+TDS : 650
func Misc : 610
Subtotal B : 3793.9
C: Trim, Forecastle deck trimmed, refit hull
Change in light weight -34 tons.
Cost : twice change...so nothing.
The increased cost of Reconstruction must pay for it.
D: Fuel Ammo, stores
Magazines ) : 1092
Fuel : 2723
Subtotal D : 3815
Subtotals :
$ Base cost : 25% of 22990/1000 = $5.7475
BP Base Cost : 22.99/10 = 2.299 BP
A: 3333.63 / 1000 = 3.33363 BP, $6.66726
B : 3793.9 / 1000 = 3.7939 BP, $3.7939
C : Change in Lt disp x 2.... negative (null) cost.
D: $(3815)/2000 = $1.9075
Total :
BP : 9.42653 = 9.43
$ : 18.11616 = 18.12
Reserve : 75t
Misc Wt :
AD
243 FC 1918
25 LR radio
25 Hulesmeyer
25 Searchlight Tower (NF)
OD
5 Paravanes
40 2x Scoutfloatplanes
5 Gunpowder Cat
10 Hanger
HAW
23 CO2 Compressor AC
25 Additional pumps
HBW
162 Torpedo Nets
25t Additional Pumps
+ 6.0 forecastle, Top of upperbelt for 66%, 30mm protective deck
+3.5 weather, Top of upper belt for 33%
+1.5 Top of Main Belt
+1.0 3rd , Crown of 65mm protective deck
-1.5 2nd , bottom of belt, edge of protective deck, top of bulge
-4.0 1st
-8.56 Engineering Deck
With the apparent possibility of 68 x 345L40 barrels for equipping Monitors,
I decided to give one a try.
1- Protected against marauding cruisers
2- Protected vs plunging return fire
3- Protected vs Aerial attack (bombs, torpedoes)
4- use HMS Agincourt as guide as to how to efficiently mount big guns
5- use quads instead of twins...
Ta-da, the Imperial Parthian Navy Monitor "Lizard"
It's a little larger than I like.
But would make a very impressive shore bombardment vessel.
IPN Lizard, Parthian Monitor laid down 1926
Displacement:
42,783 t light; 47,995 t standard; 50,156 t normal; 51,884 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(761.15 ft / 754.59 ft) x 111.55 ft (Bulges 118.11 ft) x (31.17 / 32.12 ft)
(232.00 m / 230.00 m) x 34.00 m (Bulges 36.00 m) x (9.50 / 9.79 m)
Armament:
28 - 13.58" / 345 mm 40.0 cal guns - 1,201.52lbs / 545.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1926 Model
7 x 4-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
3 raised mounts
16 - 6.50" / 165 mm 43.0 cal guns - 143.30lbs / 65.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1926 Model
16 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
16 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
24 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1926 Model
12 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 600 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1926 Model
8 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides forward
2 double raised mounts
32 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
16 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
16 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 36,653 lbs / 16,626 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 490.49 ft / 149.50 m 17.72 ft / 5.40 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 264.07 ft / 80.49 m 17.72 ft / 5.40 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 490.49 ft / 149.50 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
2.24" / 57 mm 490.49 ft / 149.50 m 39.27 ft / 11.97 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 95.14 ft / 29.00 m
- Hull Bulges:
0.35" / 9 mm 490.49 ft / 149.50 m 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 5.91" / 150 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 5.91" / 150 mm
Forecastle: 1.97" / 50 mm Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.91" / 150 mm, Aft 1.97" / 50 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 103,032 shp / 76,862 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 6,600nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,889 tons
Complement:
1,675 - 2,178
Cost:
£17.009 million / $68.035 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 6,813 tons, 13.6 %
- Guns: 6,813 tons, 13.6 %
Armour: 14,649 tons, 29.2 %
- Belts: 2,909 tons, 5.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,599 tons, 3.2 %
- Bulges: 148 tons, 0.3 %
- Armament: 3,649 tons, 7.3 %
- Armour Deck: 6,113 tons, 12.2 %
- Conning Towers: 231 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 3,298 tons, 6.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 17,341 tons, 34.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 7,373 tons, 14.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 682 tons, 1.4 %
- Above deck: 682 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
60,428 lbs / 27,410 Kg = 48.2 x 13.6 " / 345 mm shells or 9.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
Metacentric height 8.5 ft / 2.6 m
Roll period: 17.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.75
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.14
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.632 / 0.634
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.39 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.47 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 30.51 ft / 9.30 m, 28.05 ft / 8.55 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 28.05 ft / 8.55 m, 25.59 ft / 7.80 m
- Aft deck: 45.00 %, 17.72 ft / 5.40 m, 17.72 ft / 5.40 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 17.72 ft / 5.40 m, 17.72 ft / 5.40 m
- Average freeboard: 21.80 ft / 6.65 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148.0 %
Waterplane Area: 63,419 Square feet or 5,892 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 240 lbs/sq ft or 1,171 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.27
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
7.8
5.4 Top of Upper belt, upper armor deck 50mm
2.9 Top of belt, armor deck 100mm, top of TDS
0.4
-1.9
-2.5 Bottom of belt
I'm surprised that it works, but it works.
Quote from: The Rock Doctor on May 12, 2023, 08:50:37 AM
I'm surprised that it works, but it works.
Recoil gave me some issues.
....and I really wanted to have 345L40mm casements, but that didn't work out.
Parthia's ancient minelayers have long been on the 'to replace' list.
Rocky's idea of a destroyer based minelayer made me want to have a try.
The total mineload makes it a rather expensive vessel,
but the high speed and high sustained cruise speed do make
it capable of offensive laying in enemy waters.
Some minelaying is handwaved as part of coastal defenses, but if you want to mine a specific spot...
minelayers are helpful. Some Parthian cruisers have this ability... but
The ship can sustain 30knots for 30 hours, allowing a rapid dash out 450nm and back,
or it can manage a 1100nm radius at 22knots.
Sahog (Hare), Parthian ML Corvette laid down 1926
Displacement:
1,500 t light; 1,568 t standard; 1,865 t normal; 2,103 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(392.94 ft / 387.14 ft) x 36.75 ft x (10.93 / 11.86 ft)
(119.77 m / 118.00 m) x 11.20 m x (3.33 / 3.62 m)
Armament:
4 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 51.50lbs / 23.36kg shells, 220 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.19lbs / 2.81kg shells, 350 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides forward
2 raised mounts
8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 2,500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model
2 x 2 row quad mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 232 lbs / 105 kg
Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
3rd: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
4th: 0.24" / 6 mm - -
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 34,243 shp / 25,545 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 2,300nm at 22.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 534 tons
Complement:
141 - 184
Cost:
£0.675 million / $2.698 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 42 tons, 2.3 %
- Guns: 42 tons, 2.3 %
Armour: 2 tons, 0.1 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 938 tons, 50.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 430 tons, 23.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 365 tons, 19.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 88 tons, 4.7 %
- Hull void weights: 5 tons
- Hull above water: 2 tons
- On freeboard deck: 72 tons
- Above deck: 9 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
541 lbs / 245 Kg = 10.3 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 11.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.16
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.420 / 0.436
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.54 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19.68 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 21.65 ft / 6.60 m, 19.03 ft / 5.80 m
- Forward deck: 28.00 %, 19.03 ft / 5.80 m, 16.73 ft / 5.10 m
- Aft deck: 37.00 %, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m, 8.53 ft / 2.60 m
- Average freeboard: 13.46 ft / 4.10 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 169.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.5 %
Waterplane Area: 8,869 Square feet or 824 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 78 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 31 lbs/sq ft or 150 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.91
- Overall: 0.53
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
The Sahog, or Hare class uses the hull of the Palang Oceanic Destroyer as the basis for a high speed minelayer.
The fast, agile nature, along with the ability to leave little pellets behind led to the name.
The main battery is two two-gun mounts mounted foreward, leaving a clear mine deck aft.
Amidships is an elevated platform between the torpedo tubes, aranged en echelon are the two pairs of 57mm AA. This allows good sky arcs, and good engagement on the opposite broadside
For/aft, Paired twin GAST 15mm
are mounted to allow engagement of any plane seeking to strafe the length of the ship. These can also bear on the beam.
All guns are given bulletproof 1/4" (6mm) spray shields.
5T - Construction reserve
AD:
4.5t - FC
0t - SR Radio
4.5t - NF Gear
OD:
2t - Lt. MS Paravanes
0t - 2 stern rails
70t - 70 mines
HAW
1.5t - CO2 Air Compressor AC
HBW
Range :
This class is meant to be a fast minelayer,
so sustained high speed is important.
The savings from the geared turbines forms the 'emergency reserve', of 640nm at 16knts.
The 534 tons of fuel oil allows :
30.9 hours at 30 knots for 928nm.
31.6 hours at 29.85kts (75% power) (943nm)
104 hours at 22 knots. (2300nm at 22knts)
325 hours (13.5days) at 16knots (5210nm at 16knots
I think that could certainly be useful.
The various Byzantine designs of Panzerschiffs - either vessels armed with old guns, or the various new designs, have long been source of some consternation for Parthia.
Generally, they expect their rebuilt Pre-dreads and Armored cruisers will have to match up. That is one reason the Asdar class was rearmed with the newer 255L47, which is more powerful than the old 255L50 due to tech difference. While the Asdar and Zemaka classes give me 8 ships with 8x255L47, and I may build more.
But the 4 older ACs and the 6 old Predreads will eventually wear out.
So..build more Zemakas.. or build some sort of Panzerschiff of my own.
So I explored the latter.
I have a range of 24-26knt ships with 8x230L44 / 6x255L47 / 6x300L41 and armor from 180-230 on the belt.
They range in tonnage from 9800 (8x230, 24kts) to 14000 (this)
Comparatively, the Haminka class ACs would be 18500-19500, 8x255L47, 31kts, 180-230mm belt.
Collectively, replacing the 4 old ACs and 6 PDs...that 5BP difference adds up.
But I do think the ACs are still competitive and more flexible.
Maybe some of each.
Polawad Manbad, Parthia Coast Defense Cruiser laid down 1927
Displacement:
14,000 t light; 14,830 t standard; 15,907 t normal; 16,769 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(488.85 ft / 482.28 ft) x 72.18 ft x (24.61 / 25.74 ft)
(149.00 m / 147.00 m) x 22.00 m x (7.50 / 7.84 m)
Armament:
6 - 10.04" / 255 mm 47.0 cal guns - 606.27lbs / 275.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1927 Model
2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.19lbs / 2.81kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1927 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 4,754 lbs / 2,157 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.06" / 230 mm 308.66 ft / 94.08 m 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
Ends: 1.57" / 40 mm 173.59 ft / 52.91 m 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 308.66 ft / 94.08 m 13.98 ft / 4.26 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.50" / 38 mm 308.66 ft / 94.08 m 30.18 ft / 9.20 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 49.21 ft / 15.00 m
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 255 mm 5.12" / 130 mm 8.66" / 220 mm
2nd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.57" / 40 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 1.57" / 40 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 4.49" / 114 mm
Forecastle: 1.57" / 40 mm Quarter deck: 2.95" / 75 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 10.04" / 255 mm, Aft 1.57" / 40 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 59,981 shp / 44,746 Kw = 26.00 kts
Range 6,960nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,939 tons
Complement:
707 - 920
Cost:
£4.310 million / $17.238 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,102 tons, 6.9 %
- Guns: 1,102 tons, 6.9 %
Armour: 5,743 tons, 36.1 %
- Belts: 2,286 tons, 14.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 516 tons, 3.2 %
- Armament: 761 tons, 4.8 %
- Armour Deck: 2,022 tons, 12.7 %
- Conning Towers: 158 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,893 tons, 11.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,692 tons, 29.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,907 tons, 12.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 570 tons, 3.6 %
- Hull below water: 181 tons
- Hull void weights: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 28 tons
- On freeboard deck: 65 tons
- Above deck: 196 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,905 lbs / 11,750 Kg = 51.2 x 10.0 " / 255 mm shells or 4.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.650 / 0.655
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.68 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.96 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 24.28 ft / 7.40 m, 23.95 ft / 7.30 m
- Forward deck: 44.00 %, 23.95 ft / 7.30 m, 23.95 ft / 7.30 m
- Aft deck: 20.00 %, 15.75 ft / 4.80 m, 15.75 ft / 4.80 m
- Quarter deck: 16.00 %, 15.75 ft / 4.80 m, 15.75 ft / 4.80 m
- Average freeboard: 21.02 ft / 6.41 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 153.7 %
Waterplane Area: 26,667 Square feet or 2,477 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 132 lbs/sq ft or 644 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.10
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
'Polawad Mandbad' = Steel Watchdog
A design exploration of a vessel able to be a covoy guard, amphibious bombardment vessel, coastal escort (7.5m draft), able keep up with the Stormbringer class (26kts), wiith at least 3 gun volleys, using the mid-range guns 230/255/300. The end result needs to be competitive with the various ACs and cruisers out there, demanding a capital ship to defeat, but faster than the Byzantine line. This translates to a thick belt and heavy deck as it will be unable to choose the engagement range in most cases.
Armor Belt
Upper Belt is 50mm and covers from main belt to weather deck, and forecastle deck forward, and is capped by the upper armor deck.
This means it is 5m high for 44/64 = 68.75% (5*.6875)= 3.4375m
and 2.5m for 31.25% = (2.5*.3125) = 0.78125m
=4.25625m = 4.26m high
The main armor belt covers from -2m to 2.3m, the upper belt covers to freeboard.
Armor belt is outsloped 12 degrees
4.3/cos(12) = 4.396=4.40
Armor decks
The upper armor deck is 35mm
The main armor deck is 75mm
bow is 40mm and stern is 75mm
This weights 1959
There is a 40mm box around the magazines weighing 61tons
That brings the total weight to 2020
This is accounted for in the fore & aft deck being xx instead of 110 (35+75)
Final weight is 2022.
TDS
TDS rises to seal to the bottom of the Main Armor Deck at +2m above WL,
serving as a splinter barrier behind the main belt.
Decks
+7.3 Weather Deck, 35mm
+4.8 Battery Deck, 35mm
+2.3 Armor Deck, Top Armor Belt, Top TDS
-00.20 2nd
-2.0 Bottom Armor Belt
-02.70 1st
-06.20 Engineering
-07.20 Double Bottom
-07.50 Keel
Misc wt
100t Reserve
AD
111t Fire Control
25t LR Radio
25t Searchlight Tower (NF)
25t Hulesmeyer proximity detector
10t Dedicated Air-barnd SR radio
OD
5t Paravanes
40t 2x Scout Floatplanes
10t 2x gunpowder cat
10t 2-plane hanger
HAW
14t - Add Fire Ext
14t - CO2 compressor AC
HBW
14t - extra pumps
15t - Double wall tank (5t) + (10t) AVGAS & supplies
5t - Fire ext for Avgas.
147t - torpedo nets
Then this is a slightly smaller iteration of the vessel, with a lower top speed, much weaker armor,
but the 300L41 guns. These, with the 1910 caps, could penetrate 215mm at 14km, and would have better plunging fire at range than the 255L47.
Its only a 1500 ton difference, as it's still a pretty redoubtable vessel.
Polawad Manbad, Parthia Coast Defense Cruiser laid down 1927
Displacement:
12,500 t light; 13,425 t standard; 14,345 t normal; 15,080 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(452.76 ft / 446.19 ft) x 75.46 ft x (24.61 / 25.65 ft)
(138.00 m / 136.00 m) x 23.00 m x (7.50 / 7.82 m)
Armament:
6 - 11.81" / 300 mm 41.5 cal guns - 870.83lbs / 395.00kg shells, 155 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1927 Model
2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
12 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.55lbs / 32.00kg shells, 250 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.19lbs / 2.81kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1927 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,342 lbs / 2,877 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.27" / 210 mm 290.03 ft / 88.40 m 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
Ends: 1.38" / 35 mm 156.14 ft / 47.59 m 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.93" / 49 mm 290.03 ft / 88.40 m 29.82 ft / 9.09 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 52.49 ft / 16.00 m
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 290.03 ft / 88.40 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 255 mm 5.12" / 130 mm 8.27" / 210 mm
2nd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.57" / 40 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 1.57" / 40 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.56" / 65 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 2.56" / 65 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 9.06" / 230 mm, Aft 1.57" / 40 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 41,908 shp / 31,263 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 6,276nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,655 tons
Complement:
654 - 851
Cost:
£4.203 million / $16.811 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,313 tons, 9.2 %
- Guns: 1,313 tons, 9.2 %
Armour: 4,415 tons, 30.8 %
- Belts: 1,644 tons, 11.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 617 tons, 4.3 %
- Armament: 885 tons, 6.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,134 tons, 7.9 %
- Conning Towers: 135 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 1,323 tons, 9.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,842 tons, 33.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,845 tons, 12.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 607 tons, 4.2 %
- Hull below water: 180 tons
- Hull void weights: 180 tons
- Hull above water: 26 tons
- On freeboard deck: 50 tons
- Above deck: 171 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,068 lbs / 10,464 Kg = 28.0 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 4.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.91
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.606 / 0.611
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.91 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.12 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.92 ft / 7.90 m, 24.93 ft / 7.60 m
- Forward deck: 45.00 %, 24.93 ft / 7.60 m, 23.95 ft / 7.30 m
- Aft deck: 20.00 %, 15.75 ft / 4.80 m, 15.75 ft / 4.80 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 15.75 ft / 4.80 m, 17.39 ft / 5.30 m
- Average freeboard: 21.70 ft / 6.61 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157.0 %
Waterplane Area: 24,764 Square feet or 2,301 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 149 lbs/sq ft or 726 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.89
- Longitudinal: 2.82
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
"Polawad Manban " - Steel Watchdog
Meant as a coastal defense/convoy escort/amphious bombardment vessel.
Faster than known Byzantine battleships, still vunerable to various battlecruisers, but very very dangerous to anything less.
Armor Belt
Upper Belt is 50mm and covers from main belt to weather deck, and is capped by the upper armor deck.
The main armor belt covers from -2m to 2.3m, the upper belt covers to freeboard.
Armor belt is outsloped 12 degrees
4.3/cos(12) = 4.396=4.40
Armor decks
The upper armor deck is 35mm
The main armor deck is 75mm
TDS
TDS rises to seal to the bottom of the Main Armor Deck at +2m above WL, serving as a splinter barrier behind the main belt.
Depth is 3.5each side, with two compartments, an outer 1.25m void backed by a 19mm STS bulkhead, then a 2.m liquid (oil) filled compartment backed by a 30mm armored holding bulkhead.
The outervoid decouples the shock wave, and allows for counterflooding. The 19mm bulkhead deforms, not tears, dispersing the shock into the fuel oil over a broad area, allowing the 30mm builkead to absorb it over a wide area. The 2m deep fuel oil also slows or stops splinters, keeping the 30mm bulkhead from being perforated.
Misc Wt
200t - Reserve
AD
111t FC
25t Long Range Radio
25t Searchlight Tower (NF)
10t Dedicated Air Comm SR Radio
OD
5t - Paravanes
40t- 2x Scout Floatplanes
5t - Gunpowder Catapult
HAW
13t - CO2 AC compressor
13t - Enhanced Fire Suppression
HBW
147t - Torpedo Nets
13t - Enhanced Pumps
15t - Double wall tanks & AVGAS
5t - Fire suppression for AVGAS.
Decks
+7.3 Weather Deck
+4.8 Battery Deck
+2.3 Armor Deck, Top Armor Belt, Top TDS
-00.20 2nd
-2.0 Bottom Armor Belt
-02.70 1st
-06.20 Engineering
-06.96 Double Bottom
Quote...But the 4 older ACs and the 6 old Predreads will eventually wear out...
Byzantium will replace these old hulls (PDNs) around 1930 with Panzerschiffs. I haven't done any SS yet.
All combinations are possible:
- 24 to 27kts
- 8000 to 15000t
- 230mm is light, 343 is heavy.
- 254mm seems a good compromise.
- A formidable opponent for cruisers and good support for 20-21kts BBs.
I'm rather partial to my 255L47 as well, so that may be a winner.
In other news...I am bad at designing yachts.
I want it to be able to safely move the Royal Family quickly around the globe, at high speeds, in luxury.
There is a concern regarding interception by other nations or even pirates. So it is a powerful enough cruiser to beat the old light cruisers of the world. The armored deck is thick and VIPs can shelter below.
The cruise speed and TDS make submarines a very very limited threat.
...but it is very expensive.
Goldplated Elephant, Parthia Royal Armored Yacht laid down 1927
Displacement:
16,500 t light; 17,215 t standard; 21,151 t normal; 24,300 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(524.93 ft / 518.37 ft) x 88.58 ft (Bulges 95.14 ft) x (24.61 / 27.86 ft)
(160.00 m / 158.00 m) x 27.00 m (Bulges 29.00 m) x (7.50 / 8.49 m)
Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 155 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1927 Model
2 x 4-gun mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 252 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
4 raised mounts
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.19lbs / 2.81kg shells, 600 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
6 raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 3,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1927 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,431 lbs / 1,103 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 336.94 ft / 102.70 m 14.11 ft / 4.30 m
Ends: 1.57" / 40 mm 181.40 ft / 55.29 m 14.11 ft / 4.30 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.93" / 49 mm 336.94 ft / 102.70 m 30.45 ft / 9.28 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 59.06 ft / 18.00 m
- Hull Bulges:
0.35" / 9 mm 336.94 ft / 102.70 m 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.50" / 165 mm 2.95" / 75 mm 5.12" / 130 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 1.57" / 40 mm 1.57" / 40 mm
3rd: 1.57" / 40 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.36" / 60 mm
Forecastle: 1.57" / 40 mm Quarter deck: 2.36" / 60 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.91" / 150 mm, Aft 1.57" / 40 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 96,705 shp / 72,142 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 6,644nm at 22.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,085 tons
Complement:
876 - 1,140
Cost:
£4.503 million / $18.013 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 688 tons, 3.3 %
- Guns: 688 tons, 3.3 %
Armour: 4,046 tons, 19.1 %
- Belts: 1,146 tons, 5.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 732 tons, 3.5 %
- Bulges: 80 tons, 0.4 %
- Armament: 515 tons, 2.4 %
- Armour Deck: 1,449 tons, 6.9 %
- Conning Towers: 123 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 3,053 tons, 14.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,346 tons, 34.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,652 tons, 22.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 1,368 tons, 6.5 %
- Hull below water: 338 tons
- Bulge void weights: 50 tons
- Hull above water: 836 tons
- On freeboard deck: 50 tons
- Above deck: 94 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
52,953 lbs / 24,019 Kg = 297.6 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 8.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.47
Metacentric height 8.0 ft / 2.5 m
Roll period: 14.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.21
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.58
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise aft of midbreak, low quarterdeck ,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.610 / 0.619
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.45 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 28.87 ft / 8.80 m, 28.87 ft / 8.80 m
- Forward deck: 35.00 %, 28.87 ft / 8.80 m, 28.87 ft / 8.80 m
- Aft deck: 30.00 %, 45.28 ft / 13.80 m, 45.28 ft / 13.80 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 28.87 ft / 8.80 m, 28.87 ft / 8.80 m
- Average freeboard: 33.79 ft / 10.30 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 268.6 %
Waterplane Area: 33,899 Square feet or 3,149 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 154 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 138 lbs/sq ft or 674 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.88
- Longitudinal: 4.28
- Overall: 1.03
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Designed as Armored Royal Yacht,
it is meant to be well armored against hand loaded weapons, and torpedo protection is provided.
The freeboard has been raise to provide copious room below decks, and the main guns are concentrated forward, while the aft superstructure is raised, much like a hanger, giving sheltered spaces below, and a large flat deck above.
A high sustained cruising speed will mean the vessel can quickly move between ports. The speed has the secondary effect of being higher than a submarine can intercept, and the fuel load means she can sustain top speed for long periods (3163@28kts).
Misc Wt
200t - Reserve
AD
69t FC
25t Long Range Radio
OD
5t - Paravanes
40t- 2x Scout Floatplanes
5t - Gunpowder Catapult
HAW
800t - VIP Staterooms and luxury areas (Ballrooms, etc).
18t - CO2 AC compressor
18t - Enhanced Fire Suppression
HBW
300t - Luxury Staff & Supplies
18t - Enhanced Pumps
15t - Double wall tanks & AVGAS
5t - Fire suppression for AVGAS.
Cruiser I'm considering.
The Royal Nissean class has a powerful battery, but
it's 10m longer than most of my 'Cruiser' docks, and I'd like to boost cruiser speeds to 31 knots.
Plus, I'd like my scout/ skirmish line to cruise at a higher average speed around the battleline, at 16knots +,
AND I'd like slightly better armor.
So I need a shorter, faster, more heavily armored ship on the same tonnage.
That 'costs' the 120mm secondary battery.... the lack of which could bite me in shorter ranged and night time battles,
but the two-gun 180s w/ power assist should rotate and operate fast enough to be fine in the expected engagement ranges.
However, there is quite a loss between 12x 180 + 120s vs. 8x 180...though fore/aft fire is the same.
I like the armor improvements, but I'm not sold the additional knot is worth loosing the secondary and extra main battery,
though a more compact ship is rather important as I don't want to have to extend a bunch of docks.
I've got a version with the old 10 single 180s as well, which gives 6 fore/7 beam / 4 aft, making a better 'hunter',
and the singles fire and rotate even faster.
Wild Horses, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1927
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,432 t standard; 9,653 t normal; 10,629 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(520.60 ft / 515.09 ft) x 60.70 ft x (23.79 / 25.49 ft)
(158.68 m / 157.00 m) x 18.50 m x (7.25 / 7.77 m)
Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 54.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 800 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1927 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,748 lbs / 793 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 339.96 ft / 103.62 m 11.55 ft / 3.52 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -15.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.57" / 40 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.17" / 55 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 2.17" / 55 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.31" / 135 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 77,179 shp / 57,575 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 8,190nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,197 tons
Complement:
486 - 632
Cost:
£2.897 million / $11.588 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 493 tons, 5.1 %
- Guns: 493 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 1,747 tons, 18.1 %
- Belts: 801 tons, 8.3 %
- Armament: 112 tons, 1.2 %
- Armour Deck: 782 tons, 8.1 %
- Conning Tower: 52 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,436 tons, 25.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,009 tons, 31.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,652 tons, 17.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 315 tons, 3.3 %
- Hull below water: 23 tons
- Hull void weights: 32 tons
- Hull above water: 16 tons
- On freeboard deck: 109 tons
- Above deck: 135 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
10,119 lbs / 4,590 Kg = 56.9 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 15.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.454 / 0.467
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.49 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.70 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.92 ft / 7.90 m, 23.46 ft / 7.15 m
- Forward deck: 42.00 %, 23.46 ft / 7.15 m, 24.28 ft / 7.40 m
- Aft deck: 24.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Quarter deck: 14.00 %, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m, 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Average freeboard: 21.15 ft / 6.45 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 165.9 %
Waterplane Area: 20,013 Square feet or 1,859 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 95 lbs/sq ft or 463 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.81
- Longitudinal: 2.11
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
1 7
(d) (s)
A (B) [c] [w] (X) (Y)
(e) (s)
2 8
The belt is facehardened 125mm, outsloped 15 degrees
and capped by the armor deck at +1.7m
The belt descends to -1.7m below water, for a total height of 3.4m.
3.4m/cos(15) = 3.519 = 3.52m
The Parthians expect floatplanes to taxi up to the fantail, so aircraft handling facilities are placed on the stern.
40t - Reserve
AD
50t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
25t - Searchlight tower (NF)
25t - Hulesmeyer Station Keeping
10t - ATC SR Radio
OD
5t Paravanes
18t - 2TT3 21" 3t
2x 20+5 - Scout Float + Gunpwdr CAT
41t - PA main battery
HAW
8t - CO2 Compresser A/C
8t - Enhanced Fire Ext.
HBW
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
8t - Extra Pumps.
Decks
+6.7 Forecastle Deck
+4.2 Weather Deck
+1.7 Battery Deck Top belt, Armored Deck
-0.80 Deck
-1.7 Bottom main belt
-3.30
-5.80 Engineering
-6.7 Keel, double bottom
So the comparison is the current Royal Nissean hull modified to meet the same parameters.
This shrinks the length overall, outslopes the belt a bit more, and thickens the deck armor,
so any long range cruiser fire should bounce.
The cruise speed is raised, but the top speed is held to 30knots.
The shorter hull cost seakeeping, so a longer forecastle deck compensates.
Much as I'd like a slightly faster ship, I'm inclined to go with this one.
The offensive power is just much better.
Royal Nssean XIV, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1927
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,563 t standard; 9,802 t normal; 10,794 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(523.95 ft / 518.37 ft) x 57.94 ft x (22.64 / 24.36 ft)
(159.70 m / 158.00 m) x 17.66 m x (6.90 / 7.43 m)
Armament:
12 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 180 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
3 raised mounts
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1927 Model
12 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 800 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides forward
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1927 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,185 lbs / 1,445 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 347.31 ft / 105.86 m 10.53 ft / 3.21 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -15.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 5.12" / 130 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.17" / 55 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 2.17" / 55 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.12" / 130 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 69,075 shp / 51,530 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,220nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,231 tons
Complement:
492 - 640
Cost:
£3.139 million / $12.557 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 804 tons, 8.2 %
- Guns: 804 tons, 8.2 %
Armour: 1,790 tons, 18.3 %
- Belts: 743 tons, 7.6 %
- Armament: 224 tons, 2.3 %
- Armour Deck: 772 tons, 7.9 %
- Conning Tower: 51 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,180 tons, 22.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,797 tons, 28.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,802 tons, 18.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 429 tons, 4.4 %
- Hull below water: 43 tons
- Hull void weights: 50 tons
- Hull above water: 16 tons
- On freeboard deck: 154 tons
- Above deck: 166 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,322 lbs / 4,228 Kg = 52.4 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.83
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.505 / 0.516
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.95 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 23.79 ft / 7.25 m
- Forward deck: 32.00 %, 23.79 ft / 7.25 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Quarter deck: 13.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Average freeboard: 18.63 ft / 5.68 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.5 %
Waterplane Area: 20,095 Square feet or 1,867 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 98 lbs/sq ft or 480 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.84
- Longitudinal: 1.59
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
This is the 'Royal Nissean' shrunk to <=160m.
Minor tweaking of hull dimensions, and newer power plant allows thickening of deck armor.
MB Height : 1.6 AWL to -1.5BWL = 3.1
3.1 cos(15) = 3.20953 = 3.21
1 7
(d) (s)
A (B) [c] [w] (X) (Y)
(e) (s)
2 8
The casements is not viewed as a problem, Torpedo attack is difficult in high seas, both because the TBs are slowed, and because the torpedoes tend to breach the wave troughs.
The Parthians expect floatplanes to taxi up to the fantail, so aircraft handling facilities are placed on the stern.
65t - Reserve
AD
81t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
10t - SR Radio -dedicated AC command center
25t - Searchlight tower (NF)
25t - Hulesmeyer station keeping.
OD
5t - Paravanes
18t - 2TT3 21" 3t on stern
55t - 2x 20+5 - Fighter Float + Gunpwdr CAT
76t - 10% rotating wt Power Assist for 180L47
HAW
8t - CO2 Compresser A/C
8t - Enhanced Fire Ext.
HBW
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
8t - Extra Pumps.
5t+10t : Double wall tanks and AV stores.
5t : Enhanced Fire Ext for AV stores
Decks
+6.50 Forecastle Deck
+4.10 Weather Deck
+1.60 Battery Deck Top belt, Armored Deck
-0.90 2nd Deck
-1.5 Bottom main belt
-2.40 1st Deck
-6.0 Engineering
-6.9 Keel
The casements on the XV version I'd want to explore if I can replace with some mount & hoist... and I can.
Probably the best heavy I can currently manage.
edit : Changed this to XV from XIV as the prior post was also XIV
Royal Nssean XV, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1927
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,557 t standard; 9,499 t normal; 10,253 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(523.95 ft / 518.37 ft) x 57.94 ft x (22.64 / 23.97 ft)
(159.70 m / 158.00 m) x 17.66 m x (6.90 / 7.31 m)
Armament:
12 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 180 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
3 raised mounts
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, majority forward
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 800 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides forward
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.12lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1927 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,185 lbs / 1,445 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 352.49 ft / 107.44 m 10.40 ft / 3.17 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 5.12" / 130 mm
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.92" / 125 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 67,245 shp / 50,165 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,600nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,696 tons
Complement:
480 - 625
Cost:
£3.213 million / $12.850 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 860 tons, 9.1 %
- Guns: 860 tons, 9.1 %
Armour: 1,684 tons, 17.7 %
- Belts: 740 tons, 7.8 %
- Armament: 201 tons, 2.1 %
- Armour Deck: 695 tons, 7.3 %
- Conning Tower: 48 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,123 tons, 22.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,900 tons, 30.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,499 tons, 15.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 433 tons, 4.6 %
- Hull below water: 40 tons
- Hull void weights: 40 tons
- Hull above water: 33 tons
- On freeboard deck: 149 tons
- Above deck: 171 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,370 lbs / 3,796 Kg = 47.0 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.98
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.489 / 0.498
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.95 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 23.79 ft / 7.25 m
- Forward deck: 33.00 %, 23.79 ft / 7.25 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Quarter deck: 12.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Average freeboard: 18.72 ft / 5.71 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.5 %
Waterplane Area: 19,813 Square feet or 1,841 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 103 lbs/sq ft or 503 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.85
- Longitudinal: 1.65
- Overall: 0.91
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
MB Height : 1.6 AWL to -1.5BWL = 3.
3.21cos(12) = 3.169 =3.17
65t - Reserve
AD
86t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
10t - SR Radio -dedicated AC command center
25t - Searchlight tower (NF)
25t - Hulesmeyer
OD
18t - 2TT3 21" 3t on stern
55t - 2x 20+5 - Fighter Float + Gunpwdr CAT
76t - 10% rotating wt Power Assist for 180L47
HAW
8t - CO2 Compresser A/C
25t - Enhanced Fire Ext.
HBW
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
25t - Extra Pumps.
Decks
+6.5 Forecastle Deck
+4.1 Weather Deck
+1.6 Battery Deck Top belt, Armored Deck
-1.00 Deck
-1.5 Bottom main belt
-3.50
-5.80 Engineering
-6.9 Keel, double bottom
Then exploring the other direction ... Further exploring the cost of speed.
This is intended more as a heavy scout or commerce raider.
If the Byzantines were not so persistant in mounting 191mm guns, she would be armed with 165mm...but they do, so she has 180mm.
The 180mm guns are laid out as below
Giving 6 guns broadside, 6 forward, and 4 aft.
Mounted in single M&H they are power assisted and have a rotating weight of 65.9 tons each
The Royal Nissean has 4x 180 forward, and 12x 180 broadside, all in two-gun mounts, for effectively 3.6 fore / 10.8 broadside.
This has similar armor, +2 knots to better pick WHO it fights, and all single guns, for 6 fore / 6 broadside...so more forward power, for the chase, but a significant downgrade in broadsides. ...but still a pretty good battery - all on a ship that better fits my drydocks.
Pouseki, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1927
Displacement:
7,999 t light; 8,424 t standard; 9,639 t normal; 10,611 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(498.81 ft / 492.13 ft) x 53.58 ft x (24.61 / 26.51 ft)
(152.04 m / 150.00 m) x 16.33 m x (7.50 / 8.08 m)
Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 190 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 54.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 900 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1927 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,748 lbs / 793 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 374.02 ft / 114.00 m 10.86 ft / 3.31 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 117 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -15.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.57" / 40 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.12" / 130 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 92,050 shp / 68,669 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 8,090nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,187 tons
Complement:
486 - 632
Cost:
£3.136 million / $12.543 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 493 tons, 5.1 %
- Guns: 493 tons, 5.1 %
Armour: 1,622 tons, 16.8 %
- Belts: 772 tons, 8.0 %
- Armament: 154 tons, 1.6 %
- Armour Deck: 646 tons, 6.7 %
- Conning Tower: 50 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,906 tons, 30.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,695 tons, 28.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,640 tons, 17.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 284 tons, 2.9 %
- Hull below water: 27 tons
- Hull void weights: 29 tons
- Hull above water: 6 tons
- On freeboard deck: 87 tons
- Above deck: 135 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,979 lbs / 3,166 Kg = 39.2 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 14.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.520 / 0.531
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.19 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.18 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 15.00 %, 24.93 ft / 7.60 m, 22.15 ft / 6.75 m
- Forward deck: 38.00 %, 22.15 ft / 6.75 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Aft deck: 38.00 %, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarter deck: 9.00 %, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m, 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
- Average freeboard: 20.73 ft / 6.32 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 116.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.4 %
Waterplane Area: 17,893 Square feet or 1,662 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 88 lbs/sq ft or 429 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.81
- Longitudinal: 2.28
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
C (E)
A (B) (Y) X
D (F)
Armor Belt is from +1m to -1.7m and
is outsloped 15deg
3.2 /cos (15) = 3.3128 = 3.31
Misc. Weight :
30t: Construction Resv
25t : LR Radio
50t : FC
25t : Searchlight tower (NF)
25t : Hulesmeyer proximity detector
10t : SR Radio for A/C
52t : 4T3 21" TT + 4 roll down shutters (4t)
5t : Paravanes
20t : Midships Scout Floatplane
5t : Gunpowder Cat
5t : hanger
HAW
6t : CO2 Compressor AC
HBW
6t : Extra Pumps
6t : 5t extra AvGas, 1t Doublewall tank
15t : Enhanced Hydrophones
Decks :
+6.00 : Forecastle deck
+3.50 : Battery deck/ weather deck
+1.00 : Main Armor deck, top main belt
-1.70 : 1st deck, bottom armor belt
-5.50 : Engineering
-6.73 : Keel, double bottom
Quote...If the Byzantines were not so persistant in mounting 191mm guns, she would be armed with 165mm...but they do, so she has 180mm...
Byzantine had 4 x 3000t cruiser with 152 (HMS Warspite guns).
I have not developed the 152 (HMS Ajax) yet. They will have a volume of fire equivalent to 165.
Note that I also have 203 (HMS Norfolk). The different SS that I have done does not give me satisfaction.
Quote from: Jefgte on July 26, 2023, 01:01:34 AM
Quote...If the Byzantines were not so persistant in mounting 191mm guns, she would be armed with 165mm...but they do, so she has 180mm...
Byzantine had 4 x 3000t cruiser with 152 (HMS Warspite guns).
I have not developed the 152 (HMS Ajax) yet. They will have a volume of fire equivalent to 165.
Note that I also have 203 (HMS Norfolk). The different SS that I have done does not give me satisfaction.
I have a lot of cruisers with 165mm, and the Sayiddas feature that rather than the 130, but most of my cruisers do not
have sufficient speed advantage over yours to bring their 165s into useful combat distance vs. your armor without being
well within the vulnerability zone to those 191s....and it seemed the Byzantines were focusing on 191s, so I've focused on my closest equivalent gun, the 180L47.
I did notice you developed the 203mm and ranges are getting longer overall, giving the 191 more penetration.
I was happy with 35mm when ranges are shorter vs. the 191, but with long ranges and heavier shells I'm aiming for 50-55mm.
That winds up being rather expensive in tonnage and is forcing some of these tradeoffs.
Its also a reason I am willing to consider the 2-gun 180, while I would prefer a fast-training gun for short ranges, it's looking less likely that engagements will be there.
With those considerations, I've had to abandon my 6000 ton cruiser series, though I have a design for a 6500t , 31knt version of the Pouseki....basically my
KENT class. Save 1500 tons for each built and build 4 hulls instead of 3.
Originally I planned a 210mm gun, but I just don't see the need. I can manage a fairly decent 230mm 'light armored cruiser' design for only a little more tonnage than a 210 (or 203), but allot more 'punch'. I'm thinking of making one and calling it the 'Royal Yacht'.
The 3000t Armored Gun Boat with 3T2x191 does not give me complete satisfaction - 25.7kts and 4500nm range is really low.
3000t is not enough to make a ''respectable little cruiser''.
I would prefer a "classic Byzantine" with 6x191-30kts-10000nm, not too expensive (4900t) which can be built in large series.
Quote from: Jefgte on July 26, 2023, 09:43:18 AM
The 3000t Armored Gun Boat with 3T2x191 does not give me complete satisfaction - 25.7kts and 4500nm range is really low.
3000t is not enough to make a ''respectable little cruiser''.
I was somewhat impressed at the 25.7 knots, my efforts at that type of ship wind up at 23-24knots.
I do tend to try to make my ships 'riverine' and 'littoral', aiming for maneuverable (short) and shallow drafts,
which harms their speed and seakeeping.
The 'classic Byzantine' is the same concept I'm exploring at with the 6500-7250ton Pouseki variants.
Save a little tonnage, have more hulls, better coverage of more sea regions, and less disastrous to the fleet when one is lost.
In fact, we have 3 categories of cruisers
The small 3000t
Medium 6000t
The big 8000t.
Make your choice !
Many small (weak and slow)
Medium...
A few fat ones who demolish the others.
:)
That is pretty much how I've got had it divided. I'm trying to project what I'll be building in the future.
I don't think I'll be making more than 12-16 3000t 'armored frigates' and then that tonnage goes into either 6000 or 8000 ton cruisers.
The 3000 tonners - the 'armored frigates' are meant for the commerce and scouting side of things.
They are large enough for independent operations (plus the 0.5 destroyer vs 0.75/.9 cruiser includes stores, redundancies etc), can fight a pirate or AMC, and provide a sensor platform. It is a necessary function, and these show the flag for Parthia world wide, and if someone wants to dedicate a heavier vessel to chase them around the ocean, that's a tonnage win for me.
The 5-6000 tonners are the mediums which can do a variety, both scout (newer faster) and close screen (older slower). This is where that 8000 ton 32kt would also go, a bit of a hybrid, but the tonnage 'cost' I don't like. A 6500-7250t 31knt is appealing in the same role.
The 8000 tonners are the heavier cruisers meant to operate as an advance skirmish line to push away enemy scout, or even in small divisions for independent ops. That's the current Royal Nissean and I'll be building a few more to provide enough hulls.
My retention of ACs gives me the big independent cruiser role, and the backup for the scoutline.
All of which is becoming more problematic as powers field fast heavy ships and bigger guns on cruisers and and and...
I'm just generally shocked that you can get 12 x 180 on an 8000t hull with a real belt and 30kt.
Quote from: TacCovert4 on July 26, 2023, 03:53:20 PM
I'm just generally shocked that you can get 12 x 180 on an 8000t hull with a real belt and 30kt.
I was rather pleased to find I could.
The fun part is that I started with an Omaha-based layout, but 180s rather than 6".
That works too.
....I really should take a second look at that. The version I updated to 1926 was good, but unfinished.
But I have several
Royal Nissean afloat now, and
so I'm thinking what the next step is.
Hmm, I should post the Omaha 8000t and the 7000t Pouseki versions.
Later...
For fun, the 'Omaha' casement monster version
Still too long for my 160m docks...just. I might be able to shrink that.
But 1.2 seakeeping at 31 knots, with a strong belt and deck,
6x180 fore , 8x180 broadside and 6x 180 stern.
All guns are singles with power assist.
The problem with this one is the highest elevation casements I know are +22.
Extrapolating from HMS Hawkins, that may be good for ~22000m,
...I'd like a little further, but the M&H would have more elevation.
Omaha J 180mm, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1927
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,455 t standard; 9,367 t normal; 10,097 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(553.41 ft / 547.90 ft) x 55.77 ft x (21.85 / 23.12 ft)
(168.68 m / 167.00 m) x 17.00 m x (6.66 / 7.05 m)
Armament:
4 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 198.42lbs / 90.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1927 Model
8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 54.0 cal guns - 23.93lbs / 10.85kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 800 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1927 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1927 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,557 lbs / 1,160 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.31" / 135 mm 356.14 ft / 108.55 m 11.55 ft / 3.52 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -15.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.17" / 55 mm
Forecastle: 1.57" / 40 mm Quarter deck: 2.17" / 55 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.91" / 150 mm, Aft 1.57" / 40 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 73,479 shp / 54,816 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 8,340nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,643 tons
Complement:
475 - 618
Cost:
£2.818 million / $11.273 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 501 tons, 5.3 %
- Guns: 501 tons, 5.3 %
Armour: 1,929 tons, 20.6 %
- Belts: 898 tons, 9.6 %
- Armament: 165 tons, 1.8 %
- Armour Deck: 796 tons, 8.5 %
- Conning Towers: 72 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 2,319 tons, 24.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,847 tons, 30.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,367 tons, 14.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 404 tons, 4.3 %
- Hull below water: 34 tons
- Hull void weights: 75 tons
- Hull above water: 16 tons
- On freeboard deck: 143 tons
- Above deck: 136 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,558 lbs / 4,336 Kg = 53.7 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 15.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.82
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.491 / 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.82 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.41 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.92 ft / 7.90 m, 23.46 ft / 7.15 m
- Forward deck: 43.00 %, 23.43 ft / 7.14 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Aft deck: 22.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
- Average freeboard: 19.56 ft / 5.96 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.7 %
Waterplane Area: 20,195 Square feet or 1,876 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 90 lbs/sq ft or 440 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.84
- Longitudinal: 1.61
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Concept from on USS Omaha
with above-deck casements for end-on fire
and 180 vs. the US 6"
The belt is facehardened 135mm, outsloped 15 degrees
and capped by the armor deck.
3.4m/cos(15) = 3.5199= 3.52m
70
51t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
25t - Searchlight tower (NF)
25t - Hulesmeyer prox detector
10t - SR Radio, dedicated A/C
5t Paravanes
24t - 2TT3 21" 4t
50+5 - 2xFighter or Scout Float + Gunpwdr CAT
59t - 10% rotating wt Power Assist for 180L47
8t - CO2 Compresser A/C
8t - Enhanced Fire Ext.
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
8t - Extra Pumps.
1+5t : Double wall tank + avgas/munitons
5t - Fire Ext for AvGas
Decks
+6.4 Forecastle deck
+4.1 Weather deck
+1.6 Top belt, Armored Deck
-0.9
-1.8 Bottom main belt
-3.4
-6.4 Engineering
-6.66 Keel
Then not last, but least, a 7000 ton beastie, looking to fit that 'medium' cruiser slot.
While I can get her down to 6500t, it costs 1 knot...and if I'm going small, I do
want a bit more speed. Makes it that much harder to get a couple knot advantage.
Pouseki IV, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1927
Displacement:
7,000 t light; 7,403 t standard; 8,543 t normal; 9,455 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(523.41 ft / 516.73 ft) x 50.30 ft x (20.77 / 22.52 ft)
(159.54 m / 157.50 m) x 15.33 m x (6.33 / 6.86 m)
Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 190 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 54.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 900 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1927 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,748 lbs / 793 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.13" / 105 mm 366.90 ft / 111.83 m 10.17 ft / 3.10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 109 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -12.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.57" / 40 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
3rd: 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
Forecastle: 1.38" / 35 mm Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.72" / 120 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 72,839 shp / 54,338 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 8,180nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,052 tons
Complement:
443 - 577
Cost:
£2.700 million / $10.800 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 493 tons, 5.8 %
- Guns: 493 tons, 5.8 %
Armour: 1,472 tons, 17.2 %
- Belts: 623 tons, 7.3 %
- Armament: 153 tons, 1.8 %
- Armour Deck: 652 tons, 7.6 %
- Conning Tower: 43 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,299 tons, 26.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,393 tons, 28.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,544 tons, 18.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 343 tons, 4.0 %
- Hull below water: 27 tons
- Hull void weights: 30 tons
- Hull above water: 6 tons
- On freeboard deck: 145 tons
- Above deck: 135 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,005 lbs / 3,177 Kg = 39.4 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.84
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.554 / 0.565
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.27 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.73 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 19.00 %, 24.93 ft / 7.60 m, 23.79 ft / 7.25 m
- Forward deck: 33.00 %, 23.79 ft / 7.25 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Aft deck: 38.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarter deck: 10.00 %, 13.12 ft / 4.00 m, 14.11 ft / 4.30 m
- Average freeboard: 18.40 ft / 5.61 m
Ship tends to be wet forward
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 108.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.0 %
Waterplane Area: 18,206 Square feet or 1,691 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 84 lbs/sq ft or 408 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.85
- Longitudinal: 1.48
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Warning: Beam between bulkheads too wide
The 180mm guns are laid out as below
Giving 6 guns broadside, 6 forward, and 4 aft.
C (E)
A (B) (Y) X
D (F)
The Belt and Con armor has been increased to 110mm,
but the gun armor is kept lighter, to keep rotating weight under 66 tons.
Torpedoes are the new (to Parthia) heavy weight 21" 4t torps
in hull galleries with rolldown shutters
Armor Belt is outsloped 12deg
3 /cos (12) = 3.06 = 3.1
Misc. Weight :
30t: Construction Resv
25t : LR Radio
50t : FC
25t : Searchlight tower (NF)
25t : Hulesmeyer
10t : SR A/C radio
52t : 4T3 21" TT + 4 roll down shutters (4t)
5t : Paravanes
25t :Stern Scout Floatplane (Ftr option)
5t : Gunpowder Cat
5t : hanger
53t : PA main battery
HAW
6t : CO2 Compressor AC
HBW
6t : Extra Pumps
6t : 5t extra AvGas, 1t Doublewall tank
15t : Enhanced Hydrophones
Decks :
+6.50 : Forecastle deck
+4.00 : Battery deck/ weather deck
+1.50 : Main Armor deck, top main belt
-1.00 : 1st deck, , bottom protective deck
-1.50 : bottom armor belt
-4.80 : Engineering
-5.81 : Keel, double bottom
Still tinkering with cruiser designs in odds and ends of time.
The Royal Nissean XV moved the casements into twin M&H,
this keeps that, but superimposes one, allowing end-on fire.
This also outslopes the belt from 12 to 15, and extends it down from -1.5 to 1.7, while increasing it to 130mm.
Deck armor is increased from 50 to 55 to ensure immunity to plunging fire at all
expected ranges.
Cruise speed is increased to 8840nm @ 16knots, fitting the Parthian desire for screening forces to be able move about the 14kt battleline for the duration of a 8000nm trip. This translates to over 24000nm at 10knots, or about 1600 at 30knots
The Cost is ....Mount armor is thinned a little for better rotation, and 'P' mount is deleted
dropping the main battery from 12 guns to 10.
This is a very tempting trade off.
Royal Nssean XVII, Parthian Cruiser laid down 1927
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,516 t standard; 9,849 t normal; 10,916 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(523.95 ft / 518.37 ft) x 57.94 ft x (24.61 / 26.53 ft)
(159.70 m / 158.00 m) x 17.66 m x (7.50 / 8.09 m)
Armament:
10 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 170 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
5 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 160 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, majority forward
2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 50.0 cal guns - 24.25lbs / 11.00kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on side ends, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 800 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides forward
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1927 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,810 lbs / 1,275 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.12" / 130 mm 336.94 ft / 102.70 m 11.22 ft / 3.42 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined -15.00 degrees (positive = in)
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.12" / 130 mm 1.77" / 45 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
4th: 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm 0.31" / 8 mm
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.17" / 55 mm
Forecastle: 1.57" / 40 mm Quarter deck: 2.17" / 55 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.92" / 125 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 68,133 shp / 50,828 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,840nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,400 tons
Complement:
493 - 642
Cost:
£3.095 million / $12.378 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 759 tons, 7.7 %
- Guns: 759 tons, 7.7 %
Armour: 1,777 tons, 18.0 %
- Belts: 801 tons, 8.1 %
- Armament: 163 tons, 1.7 %
- Armour Deck: 765 tons, 7.8 %
- Conning Tower: 49 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,151 tons, 21.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,831 tons, 28.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,849 tons, 18.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 482 tons, 4.9 %
- Hull below water: 51 tons
- Hull void weights: 50 tons
- Hull above water: 24 tons
- On freeboard deck: 146 tons
- Above deck: 211 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,196 lbs / 4,171 Kg = 51.7 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 2.6 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 15.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.78
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.466 / 0.480
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.95 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 23.79 ft / 7.25 m
- Forward deck: 25.00 %, 23.79 ft / 7.25 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Aft deck: 40.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.45 ft / 4.10 m, 14.11 ft / 4.30 m
- Average freeboard: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127.2 %
Waterplane Area: 19,424 Square feet or 1,805 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 99 lbs/sq ft or 484 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.84
- Longitudinal: 1.68
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Main guns have power assist.
Secondary and tertiary have gunshields and weatherproof mountings.
Layout something like this :
1 (3)\ TT 5
A (B) | Q (X) Y
2 (4)/ TT 6
MB Height : 1.6 AWL to -1.7 BWL = 3.3
3.3 cos(15) = 3.4164 =3.4
65t - Reserve
AD
76t - Fire Control
25t - LR Radio
10t - SR Radio -dedicated AC command center
25t - Searchlight tower (NF)
25t - Hulesmeyer
50t - Command facilities.
OD
5t - Paravanes
24t - 2TT3 21" 4t
55t - 2x 20+5 - Fighter Float + Gunpwdr CAT
62t - 10% rotating wt Power Assist for 180L47
HAW
8t - CO2 Compresser A/C
16t - Enhanced Fire Ext.
HBW
10t- Aux CIC
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
16t - Extra Pumps.
1+5+5 : Double wall tanks (1) with AVGAS & stores + dedicated fire suppresion,
Decks
+6.5 Forecastle Deck
+4.1 Weather Deck
+1.6 Battery Deck Top belt, Armored Deck
-1.00 Deck
-1.7 Bottom main belt
-3.50
-5.80 Engineering
-6.9 Keel, double bottom
Not that it affects the numbers at all, but would stern torpedo carriages not interfere with stern aviation facilities?
Oops- and the weapons layout pic had them sited side aft as "TT".
Easy to fix. Good catch.
Anyhow, I have lots of cruiser designs, but 3 main series versions A-I/J ish/ so 12+variants on a theme.
This is a little different.
Longer than I want, but a try at a float-plane cruiser.
If I build them, I'd mix them in as part of larger cruiser squadrons to give them more search / air denial
ability.
The compromises for it cost me some belt armor, but I was able to keep the deck armor and cruise range/speed.
She's still go a decent punch and belt.
On ship names - where I've used non-English it's been from a mix of Old/middle (pahlavi)/modern Persian (mainly)
Where I could find Latin alphabet translations. Then there are some taken from names in tales like 'Kalifern' (mythical land across the sea where Griffens live in mountains past a great valley) or 'Zemaka' (one of 4 named winds, in this case an East Storm wind).
I have found a middle-persian/pahlavi dictionary, so I'm probably still botching the names, but they should be closer.
Pasbanendag "Watcher Bird", Parthian Enter ship type laid down 1927
Displacement:
8,000 t light; 8,452 t standard; 9,691 t normal; 10,682 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(557.74 ft / 551.18 ft) x 60.70 ft x (21.85 / 23.46 ft)
(170.00 m / 168.00 m) x 18.50 m x (6.66 / 7.15 m)
Armament:
8 - 7.09" / 180 mm 47.0 cal guns - 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 165 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, forward deck forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, forward deck aft
1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 4.72" / 120 mm 43.0 cal guns - 51.50lbs / 23.36kg shells, 260 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
6 x 2-gun mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
2 raised mounts
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 900 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1927 Model
2 x 2-gun mounts on sides amidships
2 raised mounts
2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 double raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 5,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1927 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,172 lbs / 985 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 358.27 ft / 109.20 m 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
- Hull void:
0.00" / 0 mm 0.00 ft / 0.00 m 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.12" / 130 mm 1.57" / 40 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 1.57" / 40 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
4th: 0.12" / 3 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 4.92" / 125 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 65,410 shp / 48,796 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,300nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,229 tons
Complement:
487 - 634
Cost:
£2.831 million / $11.325 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 588 tons, 6.1 %
- Guns: 588 tons, 6.1 %
Armour: 1,683 tons, 17.4 %
- Belts: 727 tons, 7.5 %
- Armament: 151 tons, 1.6 %
- Armour Deck: 757 tons, 7.8 %
- Conning Tower: 48 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,065 tons, 21.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,114 tons, 32.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,690 tons, 17.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 551 tons, 5.7 %
- Hull below water: 73 tons
- Hull void weights: 60 tons
- Hull above water: 16 tons
- On freeboard deck: 248 tons
- Above deck: 154 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
11,308 lbs / 5,129 Kg = 63.5 x 7.1 " / 180 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a ram bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.464 / 0.476
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.08 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.92 ft / 7.90 m, 23.29 ft / 7.10 m
- Forward deck: 45.00 %, 23.29 ft / 7.10 m, 22.64 ft / 6.90 m
- Aft deck: 20.00 %, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m, 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
- Average freeboard: 19.42 ft / 5.92 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 171.8 %
Waterplane Area: 21,591 Square feet or 2,006 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 98 lbs/sq ft or 478 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.85
- Longitudinal: 1.54
- Overall: 0.90
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Pasban = Watcher
-endag = bird
winjisk - sparrow
Xrad - wisdom
ustan - ghost
wad - wind/spirit
Xursedendag = Sunbird
Intended to provide a cruiser with a decent "punch"
of fast rotating 180mm guns, but high speed and range..
while also providing a fleet scout role.
This results in guns in "A/B" and "P/Q" amidships but a aft deck and stern cleared for aircraft handling ala Tone
T
This is modeled by a long foredeck covering 20+45=65% of the ship,
with A/B being "Fore deck foreward", and "P/Q" being "fore deck aft"
This leaves the 35% of the ship aft - 58.8m / 193ft for handling aircraft.
This handling deck is a deck level lower than the forecastle deck, allowing the aft guns to fire over with only shallow elevations to clear.
The stern slopes down to make a ramp, allowing planes to be brought on board more readily.
Misc
60t - Reserve weight.
AD
59 - FC
25 - LR radio
0t - SR Radio
25t - Hulesmeyer prox detection
35t - Searchlight tower (NF) & ATC Observation station
10t - SR Radio, dedicated AC
OD
On Forecastle deck
49t - 10% tonnage - power assist for Main Battery
5t Paravanes
24t 2TT4 21"
On aft deck :
10t - 2x Gunpowder Catapults
50t - 2x Fighter Float
100t - 4x Scout Float (normal, able to fit Ftr)
(cranes and nets for recovery part of floatplane cost)
10t - rail system.
8t - CO2 A/C
8t- Enhanced Fire Suppresion.
8t - Enhanced Pumps
15t - Enhanced Hydrophones
50t - Additional AvGas in double tank (5t +45t gas)
Decks
+6.9
+4.4
+1.9 Main Armor Deck, Top Main Belt.
-0.60 2nd Deck
-1.8 Bottom Main Belt
-3.10 1st Deck
-5.59 Double Bottom, Engineering
-6.66 Keel